Paying tv/internet-whos liable?

thelazygun

Hello, someones advice on this issue would be appreiciated. If I am living in a houseshare with no tv licence but there is a tv and my name is on the monthly bill for the cable/interent. If one of my housemates gets caught by the tv licence inspector- am I the one who would be liable to have to go to court and pay the fine? Could my housemates refuse to pay the fine? Also, if it is me who pays for the internet, is it me who is liable for illegal movie/music downloads my housemates make? In case its important there would be no contract signed with the landlord. Thanks

stiffler123

As far as the Internet goes, the IP address of downloaders is recorded so you would not be liable. I'm not sure about the tv licence though.

Bob Z

thelazygun wrote: »

Hello, someones advice on this issue would be appreiciated. If I am living in a houseshare with no tv licence but there is a tv and my name is on the monthly bill for the cable/interent. If one of my housemates gets caught by the tv licence inspector- am I the one who would be liable to have to go to court and pay the fine? Could my housemates refuse to pay the fine? Also, if it is me who pays for the internet, is it me who is liable for illegal movie/music downloads my housemates make? In case its important there would be no contract signed with the landlord. Thanks

IF your friend got caught with no tv licence then i think he would be liable. But it would be low to leave your friend in the lurch if he did get caught. Fairs fair you would all have to chip in?

stiffler123 wrote: »

As far as the Internet goes, the IP address of downloaders is recorded so you would not be liable. I'm not sure about the tv licence though.

But wouldnt all the computers on that connection have the same IP address?

GerardKeating

thelazygun wrote: »

Hello, someones advice on this issue would be appreiciated. If I am living in a houseshare with no tv licence but there is a tv and my name is on the monthly bill for the cable/interent. If one of my housemates gets caught by the tv licence inspector- am I the one who would be liable to have to go to court and pay the fine? Could my housemates refuse to pay the fine? Also, if it is me who pays for the internet, is it me who is liable for illegal movie/music downloads my housemates make? In case its important there would be no contract signed with the landlord. Thanks

With respect to the TV, the inspectors will have the details of the cable sub, so will call asking for the named account holder and will ask that person for a TV licence, unless the other people in the house volunteer their names, the person on the cable bill will get the summons.

Again with the internet, the only "name" that anyone has is the bill payer then they would be the person in trouble.

shoegirl

For bills, the person liable is the person whose name is on the bill.

TV licence - basically whoever opens the door to an inspector.

Bob Z

shoegirl wrote: »

TV licence - basically whoever opens the door to an inspector.

I think this applies even if the person who answers the door isnt living their

Xiney

they can track you down via IP address, but all you'd have to do is submit your hard drive to a thorough scan to prove you've never had any copyrighted material on it.

As for the TV license, it's up to the household, but since your name is on the cable bill, your housemates would have a stronger position in the "it's not my TV your honour" game.

Bob Z

Xiney wrote: »

they can track you down via IP address, but all you'd have to do is submit your hard drive to a thorough scan to prove you've never had any copyrighted material on it.

Can you do that? Sounds doubtful

Xiney

Bob Z wrote: »

Can you do that? Sounds doubtful

Well, since you can still find traces of files even after they've been deleted off the hard drive, I think it's plausible.

Bob Z

Xiney wrote: »

Well, since you can still find traces of files even after they've been deleted off the hard drive, I think it's plausible.

so if they catch someone downloading movies all that person has to do is hand over a hard drive and they will be cleared? Eircom will go to the trouble of doing a deep scan? So if you set up a dummy hard drive you can't get caught then?

Cookie_Monster

You won't get a fine for the TV licence first time either, they give you 4 weeks (4 iirc) to get it once they catch you without it, then you will be fined after that if still don't have it.

Xiney

Bob Z wrote: »

so if they catch someone downloading movies all that person has to do is hand over a hard drive and they will be cleared? Eircom will go to the trouble of doing a deep scan? So if you set up a dummy hard drive you can't get caught then?

well, not exactly: I'm saying in the case where your roommate's HDD is full of illegally downloaded stuff and you don't have any on yours, you're probably fine.

burden of proof that you are involved lying with the prosecution and all that.

D3PO

Xiney wrote: »

they can track you down via IP address, but all you'd have to do is submit your hard drive to a thorough scan to prove you've never had any copyrighted material on it.

.

Your way way off here no way. The IP address cant be tracked down. The IP address isnt static within a house so you cannot tell if laptop A or laptop B was the user.

As for submitting your hard drive. Forensic testing is VERY EXPENSIVE. This would never happen as it would cost more than any sanctions taken.

D3PO

Xiney wrote: »

Well, since you can still find traces of files even after they've been deleted off the hard drive, I think it's plausible.

your watching too much CSI mate. Way too expensive for them to bother doing this.

Burden of proof would be on the internet subscriber. They can prove X was downloaded it would be up to the subscriber to prove it wasnt them. Anyway this is way over the top this doesnt happen.

OP what will happen is you will get a letter from your ISP saying stop downloading illegal material or we will cut you off. If you stop no harm no foul. If you dont you will be cut off.

Xiney

D3PO wrote: »

Your way way off here no way. The IP address cant be tracked down. The IP address isnt static within a house so you cannot tell if laptop A or laptop B was the user.

As for submitting your hard drive. Forensic testing is VERY EXPENSIVE. This would never happen as it would cost more than any sanctions taken.

I meant that the IP address could lead the authorities to the house.

I don't think you're likely to get a copyright fine if they can't find any illegal stuff on your hard drive, but they find a ton of it on your roommate's computer. I mean, in that case it's obvious who out of the house is responsible?

Xiney

D3PO wrote: »

your watching too much CSI mate. Way too expensive for them to bother doing this.

Burden of proof would be on the internet subscriber. They can prove X was downloaded it would be up to the subscriber to prove it wasnt them. Anyway this is way over the top this doesnt happen.

OP what will happen is you will get a letter from your ISP saying stop downloading illegal material or we will cut you off. If you stop no harm no foul. If you dont you will be cut off.

It's not that expensive. HDD recovery is accessible to consumers even now. Perhaps not at the forensic level, but if it's the difference between being fined thousands and paying a couple hundred to have someone say there is no evidence of illegally downloaded material on your HDD, I know what option I'd take, even if I had to pay for it.

The last sentence is probably true though. It is unlikely to go to court like that in Ireland, and your internet will probably just get cut off... depending on your provider.

D3PO

Xiney wrote: »

I meant that the IP address could lead the authorities to the house.

I don't think you're likely to get a copyright fine if they can't find any illegal stuff on your hard drive, but they find a ton of it on your roommate's computer. I mean, in that case it's obvious who out of the house is responsible?

true but its moot anyway. Copyright fines are as rare as hens teeth

The_Conductor

Xiney wrote: »

burden of proof that you are involved lying with the prosecution and all that.

Thats the knux of the problem. The assumption is that if the material was downloaded from your internet connection- you are at fault. The burden of proof is not with the prosecution- the film and music industries have turned this on its head- and you are assumed guilty until proven innocent. More often than not it is easier to pay up- than it is to go to the trouble of proving your innocence. A deep scan of a hard-drive, alongside legal representation- can cost thousands.

Eircom have a lot to answer for- and they have done their customers a massive disservice, by rolling over in the manner in which they have done. UPC in particular, the other bigger player in the market, told them to take a flying leap.

D3PO

Xiney wrote: »

It's not that expensive. HDD recovery is accessible to consumers even now. Perhaps not at the forensic level, but if it's the difference between being fined thousands and paying a couple hundred to have someone say there is no evidence of illegally downloaded material on your HDD, I know what option I'd take, even if I had to pay for it.

The last sentence is probably true though. It is unlikely to go to court like that in Ireland, and your internet will probably just get cut off... depending on your provider.

Its a funny thing. Price has come way done in a like for like measure. Price per MB is way way down.

However they cannot just recover a singular file they have to recover all the data on the hard drive. (how else can you prove there was nothing illegal on it) Whilst the price per MB has come way down hard drive capacities have gone way up wiping out savings.

Its still fair enough to say that recovering data unless it is severly valuable to you is not worth while.

Anyway were getting off topic

kippy

smccarrick wrote: »

Thats the knux of the problem. The assumption is that if the material was downloaded from your internet connection- you are at fault. The burden of proof is not with the prosecution- the film and music industries have turned this on its head- and you are assumed guilty until proven innocent. More often than not it is easier to pay up- than it is to go to the trouble of proving your innocence. A deep scan of a hard-drive, alongside legal representation- can cost thousands.

Eircom have a lot to answer for- and they have done their customers a massive disservice, by rolling over in the manner in which they have done. UPC in particular, the other bigger player in the market, told them to take a flying leap.

Indeed, deep scanning of hard drives is completely irrelevent anyway.......
Say for example there are five people renting the house.
1 person is downloading copyrighted material (or even worse completely illegal material). The save it off to their external drives and leave that in their "home" place..........what happens then?

To be honest, the whole shared internet is a real can of worms in rented accomodation. It is only a matter of time before there are real issues with this. Ultimately the person who is paying for the connection is the first port of call and generally the one who will be getting the letters/summons.

As for the TV license. Get everyone in the house to start putting money aside for it. A euro or two a week into a kitty jar or something. The first time some calls looking for a license (and they will) pay up, you'll only have to pay till then.

Bob Z

Xiney I don't use bit torrent myself but if I did and what you are saying istrue then that means it would be easy to download films without leaving a trace on my hard drive

op if it's your subscription then I imagine that your responible for what happens with it. A friend of mine share his Internet connection cwith his next door neighbour but I wouldn't feel comfortable with that

however after saying that if you are worried about is illegal downloads then I don't think they will be that strict the first time you are caught you will probably get a letter

ricman

the person on the tv bill is responsible for buying a tv license, the cable companys send info to post office licensing section, there is a tv a this adress ,eventually an inspector will call.
if you got caught downloading ,the isp is supposed to send you a warning letter,but i think at the moment eircom is the only isp that has a legal agreement with the riaa in ireland.
AFTER 2 or 3 warnings you might get disconnected from eircom broadband.
I,VE never heard of a case going to court in ireland,re downloading music so far.

kippy

By the way, its not so much the "copyrighted" material that the main issue is with.
The BB payer at least gets warning over this.
It is the criminally illegal activities that could be taking place over your internet connection I would be more worried about.

The_Conductor

ricman wrote: »

I,VE never heard of a case going to court in ireland,re downloading music so far.

Almost all the ISPs have been brought to court- for facilitating their customers in downloading copyrighted material. Eircom accepted this argument (they are alone among the Irish ISPs in this respect), and have settled- other ISPs have refused to be bound by the same conditions imposed on Eircom.

Over 200,000 letters have issued to people accused of illegal downloading in the UK thus far- you can be certain once the bigger ISPs are onboard, that similar will happen here- its simply a matter of time.

D3PO

kippy wrote: »

It is the criminally illegal activities that could be taking place over your internet connection I would be more worried about.

I wouldnt burden of proof is on the prosecutor in a criminal case. So unless the housemate was sharing your computer you would be ok as the case for the defense would be overwelming.

however for copyright the burden of proof that you didnt breach it would be on you.

Max Power1

GerardKeating wrote: »

With respect to the TV, the inspectors will have the details of the cable sub, so will call asking for the named account holder and will ask that person for a TV licence, unless the other people in the house volunteer their names, the person on the cable bill will get the summons.

Again with the internet, the only "name" that anyone has is the bill payer then they would be the person in trouble.

eh no!

Ever heard of data protection?? Cable companies are not allowed distibute details to anyone else, including TV licencing officials. You will get a demand in "the occupant" name unless you either a) volunteer a name or b) have had a previous TV licence. If youve never had one they wont have access to your details.

The_Conductor

Max Power1 wrote: »

eh no!

Ever heard of data protection?? Cable companies are not allowed distibute details to anyone else, including TV licencing officials. You will get a demand in "the occupant" name unless you either a) volunteer a name or b) have had a previous TV licence. If youve never had one they wont have access to your details.

Cable companies most certainly are supplying details of connections to TV Licence officials- and car insurance companies are supplying Revenue with details of all foreign registered vehicles insured in the state.......

Provisions of the data protection act do not apply to data kept for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State (Section 5 of the Act). In addition- any company, public or private- can be legally compelled to share any data held by them with a list of agents or bodies (including the Revenue Commissioners).

Bob Z

Max Power1 wrote: »

eh no!

Ever heard of data protection?? Cable companies are not allowed distibute details to anyone else, including TV licencing officials. You will get a demand in "the occupant" name unless you either a) volunteer a name or b) have had a previous TV licence. If youve never had one they wont have access to your details.

I know this is a. Diferent legal system but when you buy freeview box you have to supply your name and address in the UK.

Max Power1

smccarrick wrote: »

Cable companies most certainly are supplying details of connections to TV Licence officials- ).

They may be supplying details that there is a connection - they are not permitted to supply any further personal details.

EDIT: Lots of threads over in the broadcasting forum about this.

The TV licence database is cross referenced with the electoral register. If you have not registered to vote, you most likely will not be caught.

ricman

So all they have to do is say is house x has a cable tv connection,so there must be a tv there.THEY don,t have to give your name to the post office licensing dept.

ricman

As above the revenue has wide powers to get info, in order to collect any kind of tax or stamp duty,see what happened with the dirt enquiry ,re tax on interest
from bank accounts.