Hauled to court...

Chips Lovell

Thor wrote: »

A state officel making anyone cycle unnecessarily should NOT be allowed.

He didn't make him. He asked him. He chose not to go and got a summons instead.

Captain Havoc

Failure to use proper lighting on a bicycle is an offence under the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations, 1963. If you are stopped by a member of the Gardai, the Garda may take your name and address, details about your bicycle and the time and date of the offence. You may be given a caution or you may be issued with a summons to appear in court.

I'm just wondering how anyone can say the guard acted inapropriately? I don't know what the fine is but I think it used to be £50.

RobFowl

In all seriousness the Garda sounded very reasonable.

No lights is incredible dangerous and TBH stupid as well.

Even with full lights and hi-viz jackets it's easy to miss cyclists at night while driving.

He had your best interests at heart and it could be argued he was trying to stop you getting killed.

I'd take heed of the advice above.

Get lights present yourself to the station and let them and ideally that Garda inspect the bike. Apologise and he may cancel the hearing.

If not and it does go to court, plead guilty and apologise to the judge and the Garda and make sure you can prove you've rectified the lack of lights.

There's a thread recently here noting the marked reduction in cyclist deaths this year. What he was doing is part of the reason why this is.....

Jawgap

blorg wrote: »

But he didn't "require" the OP to do so, he merely offered it as an out to avoid prosecution. I take it you think the Gardá should have confiscated the bike on the spot, that was the only legal reasonable thing to do, right?

Nope - I think a more experienced Guard wouldn't have let someone like the OP paint him into a corner. I think he would've given him a lecture / ticking off, then when he saw that wasn't working ask him for his name and address and tell him to wait before wandering out of earshot to talk on the radio or pretend to talk on the radio. Thus allowing the offending cyclist to cool his heels. The he would've proceeded with part II of the lecture before telling him to get off the bike and walk it home.

A Guard with a bit more people skills would've outlined the potential courses of action and asked the offender his opinion on what should happen as means of revealing the current and future consequences of his indiscretion. Then he probably would've told him that he might be summonsed for the offence, but that he had six months to make that decision.

Given the number of unlit cyclists on the road and the number of Guards you've got to wonder if most Guards wouldn't have taken a different tack given the relative absence of this offence in the courts.

kmick

I am a cyclist so no axe to grind but...the OP is typical of a lot of cyclists on the road who feel the law does not apply to them. When they get pulled up instead of admitting they were wrong and taking their punishment (in this case turning up to the station) they still dont learn any lesson. I am hopeful that in this case a large fine will help you learn your lesson OP but I doubt it. You are the kind of person who will continue to cycle without a light just to "spite" them. May the force of the bewildered be with you.

Captain Havoc

Jawgap wrote: »

Given the number of unlit cyclists on the road and the number of Guards you've got to wonder if most Guards wouldn't have taken a different tack given the relative absence of this offence in the courts.

I think the relative absence in courts is down to most people who get caught for this appearing at their local garda station with a set of lights attached to their bike rather than going to a football match.

-Chris-

Jawgap wrote: »

A Guard with a bit more people skills would've outlined the potential courses of action and asked the offender his opinion on what should happen as means of revealing the current and future consequences of his indiscretion. Then he probably would've told him that he might be summonsed for the offence, but that he had six months to make that decision.

How do you use your people skills on people who say things like this to you?

rochie16 wrote: »

I told him that I had no intention of cycling down the 7km to Rathgar on a saturday morning, having commuted 100km to college Monday through Friday. Furthermore, I had prior commitments in the form of a football game I had to participate in.

I'm sure the Garda was fit to be tied after this exchange.

blorg

Jawgap wrote: »

Nope - I think a more experienced Guard wouldn't have let someone like the OP paint him into a corner. I think he would've given him a lecture / ticking off, then when he saw that wasn't working ask him for his name and address and tell him to wait before wandering out of earshot to talk on the radio or pretend to talk on the radio. Thus allowing the offending cyclist to cool his heels. The he would've proceeded with part II of the lecture before telling him to get off the bike and walk it home.

A Guard with a bit more people skills would've outlined the potential courses of action and asked the offender his opinion on what should happen as means of revealing the current and future consequences of his indiscretion. Then he probably would've told him that he might be summonsed for the offence, but that he had six months to make that decision.

Given the number of unlit cyclists on the road and the number of Guards you've got to wonder if most Guards wouldn't have taken a different tack given the relative absence of this offence in the courts.

So you think it was unreasonable of the Gardá to ask the cyclist to prove that he had rectified the problem at a later date? Why?

Jawgap

-Chris- wrote: »

How do you use your people skills on people who say things like this to you?

Law enforcement is just a part of policing and if I was wholly in the wrong (like the OP) I'd hold my hands up, listen to what the Guard had to say, apologise and offer an explanation. I certainly wouldn't mouth off at him. And if he told me to get off the bike and walk it - I'd do that (at least until I was out of his division). And at the end of it, I'd say thanks.

If he asked / told me to produce the bike with lights at a station then I'd do that, unless the station was mega-miles away, in which case I'd ask if I could bring it to my local station. Hell, if it was my local station I'd walk home, get my lights, throw the bike on the car and come back before his shift ended with bike and lights properly assembled and hope that would be the end of the matter.










.........and if that didn't work, I'd phone the brudder;)

-Chris-

Jawgap wrote: »

Law enforcement is just a part of policing and if I was wholly in the wrong (like the OP) I'd hold my hands up, listen to what the Guard had to say, apologise and offer an explanation....

That's all well and good, but I'm curious as to how you'd act if you were the Garda in this situation dealing with the OP?

What would you have done?

07Lapierre

Jawgap wrote: »

Nope - I think a more experienced Guard wouldn't have let someone like the OP paint him into a corner. I think he would've given him a lecture / ticking off, then when he saw that wasn't working ask him for his name and address and tell him to wait before wandering out of earshot to talk on the radio or pretend to talk on the radio. Thus allowing the offending cyclist to cool his heels. The he would've proceeded with part II of the lecture before telling him to get off the bike and walk it home.

A Guard with a bit more people skills would've outlined the potential courses of action and asked the offender his opinion on what should happen as means of revealing the current and future consequences of his indiscretion. Then he probably would've told him that he might be summonsed for the offence, but that he had six months to make that decision.

Given the number of unlit cyclists on the road and the number of Guards you've got to wonder if most Guards wouldn't have taken a different tack given the relative absence of this offence in the courts.

I think the Guards are too lenient in this country. in the US, if the "suspect" had an attitude like the OP, he would have been arrested, cuffed, put in the back of the cruiser. Once back at the station they would have done a full ID check, He would then have been issued with a fine, possibly had his bike conficated AND if he gave the officer any more "lip"..the tazer gun would have been used.

Jawgap

blorg wrote: »

So you think it was unreasonable of the Gardá to ask the cyclist to prove that he had rectified the problem at a later date? Why?

I don't think the Guard was wrong per se, I think he chose poorly through lack of experience.

In a different life I spent a lot of time working with Public Order Units in the UK, and you quickly learned to avoid working with the younger officers because their lack of experience meant they hadn't developed an effective range of strategies for dealing with "tense" situations, compared to older, more experienced lads.

Numpty wasn't / isn't a bad copper, by the sounds of it he just lacked a bit of cop-on (excuse the pun). Unfortunately for him he ran into the OP who himself seems to be equally deficient in that department.

CramCycle

blorg wrote: »

So you think it was unreasonable of the Gardá to ask the cyclist to prove that he had rectified the problem at a later date? Why?

I think the point is that it is completely out of line for the Gardaí, as civil servants, to be expected to offer a solution to a problem that would save money and time. Thats not how things are done. :pac: I expected more from you Blorg

PS I have no idea what the Pacman symbol stands for but I felt a humourous face was needed

Jawgap

-Chris- wrote: »

That's all well and good, but I'm curious as to how you'd act if you were the Garda in this situation dealing with the OP?

What would you have done?

Easy - let him sound off all he wants, then tell him to wait while I check his details with the station. Leave him to cool off. If he was still a bit lippy after that, I'd get his parents' number and ring them and ask them to come and pick him up from the side of the road before he gets hurt or hurts someone else.

langdang

kmick wrote: »

I am a cyclist so no axe to grind but...the OP is typical of a lot of cyclists on the road who feel the law does not apply to them.

Worse, it's the typical reaction of the majority in Ireland "This is SOOO unfair Garda, the rules are for other people, you can let me off ha?"

godihatedehills

Isn't it time someone put 'tedious bickering' into the thread title?

langdang

godihatedehills wrote: »

Isn't it time someone put 'tedious bickering' into the thread title?

I'm afraid I don't agree with you.....

fenris

Ran our of popcorn, switching to pringles, but there is only salt and vinegar, the question is do I add MSG to make them taste as good as sour cream and onion or not?

BTW my money is on the cop and years of bureaucracy crushing the will of the OP into a grumbling but compliant good little citizen!

CramCycle

-Chris- wrote: »

fit to be tied

A lovely expression not used half enough

Jawgap wrote: »

Easy - let him sound off all he wants, then tell him to wait while I check his details with the station. Leave him to cool off. If he was still a bit lippy after that, I'd get his parents' number and ring them and ask them to come and pick him up from the side of the road before he gets hurt or hurts someone else.

It does give the impression that mouthing of to a Garda is perfectly OK. Mouthing off to anyone without reasonable/due cause is never acceptable IMHO. Manners are the corner stone of a reasonable functioning society regardless of the situation.

Unless its on the internet, in which case your all fair game.

CramCycle

fenris wrote: »

Ran our of popcorn, switching to pringles, but there is only salt and vinegar, the question is do I add MSG to make them taste as good as sour cream and onion or not?
!

Tiger loaf + real butter and lob them into it, should sort you out.

As for tedious, I disagree as well, I would have done work today if this wasn't going on

Jawgap

CramCycle wrote: »

It does give the impression that mouthing of to a Garda is perfectly OK. Mouthing off to anyone without reasonable/due cause is never acceptable IMHO. Manners are the corner stone of a reasonable functioning society regardless of the situation.

Unless its on the internet, in which case your all fair game.

Agreed, but sometimes letting the storm blow itself out isn't a bad strategy - reflection comes in the calm that follows.

Anyway, this has long gone past boring - and I'm off in a few mins to pick a jersey up:)

la calera

Can the OP pleeeeeeeeeease give us some indication of when the court date is - purely for selfish reasons - you did wrong (forget about whether the Garda should be off catching 'proper' criminals) and you've a court appearance through your own fault - and I want to know when to keep an eye out for the outcome...

Captain Havoc

I'm starting to lose the will to live reading this thread:
Law breaker is stopped in the process of breaking the law, he is told to remedy his ways and produce evidence of his intent to become a law obiding citizen by a guardian of the peace. Law breaker tells guardian of the peace that his leisure activities would get in the way of him being able to show that he will in future be a law obiding citizen and he couldn't see why he should cycle 7km as he opperates his unroadworthy vehicle for 100km during the week. Time passes when the guardian of the peace realises that a traffic offense had not been followed up on and would need to be acted on sooner rather than later and sends a court summons to law breaker.

The cheapest set of lights in CRC is €11.12, why didn't you just buy a set and save yourself the agro?

langdang

Captain Havoc wrote: »

The cheapest set of lights in CRC is €11.12, why didn't you just buy a set and save yourself the agro?

Because that would only be encouraging these smelly culchies to come up to Dublin and try applying the law to their superiors? (satire people, relax)

CramCycle

I'm out as well, this is 24hours longer than I should have participated in this thread. Good night and good luck to either the OP, the gardaí or the judge not sure who the majority are supporting :pac:.

Bluefoam

I'm staying tuned to this thread. I want to read the bit where the OP lectures the judge & the Garda...

blorg

Jawgap wrote: »

Agreed, but sometimes letting the storm blow itself out isn't a bad strategy - reflection comes in the calm that follows.

Do you know, I somewhat doubt the OP would be doing much reflection :pac:

flatface

Don't listen to these do-goodie woosieboys OP. Though you have failed to convince the majority of the responders here, I reckon the Judge could be swayed.
You go in there and give it socks, watch the dead-on Judge do the Garda for slander and timewasting and I'll meet you in the Legal Eagle for celebratory shots. This could be the biggest thread turnaround since MocklerGate

Hungrycol

So ryosh I put on my best Armani and Daddy dropped me in the Aston to the court ryosh, said I’m be out in a jiffy Daddy and asked some pleb ryosh behind a counter which stoopit room in this stoopd court I was supposed to go, tut, don’t these people know who I am? So I sat in a mancky seat beside more low lives than Dun Leery (sic) pier on a dole day, don’t ask me about the smell ryosh. Some old duffer is callin my name ryosh so I stand up and say “listen ryosh my bike is worth more than your home and putting some kack lights on my Di2 Colnago just ain’t gonna happen ryosh”. Some very old fat bas*ard judge wannabe starts saying blad blah blah, lights, bike, blah blah and the eight year old Guard, that stopped me, starts sayin the same and producing lights at the station ryosh, sayin it like he’s all important like not like my Daddy who actually is. They must be into bog ball cos they don’t understand how key a position tight head prop is ya know like. So, like, my scummer knacker “High Visibility Singlet” (I leaned they’re called) wasn’t enough if I wasn’t morto enough with that on! I say Ok ryosh a few times and old codger fat ba*tard judge wannabe says €600, so I say ryosh wire me the money and the codger starts getting mad so I say ryosh we’ll call it quits which they explain that I pay them the money and show bike lights (like no chance) at the cop shop in the next so and so blah blah days. €600 is like less than half my front wheel, nice one like. This court stuff is a piece of piss. Daddy call them a f**king ass**les and spots me a grand for my hassle. Nice one.

07Lapierre

la calera wrote: »

Can the OP pleeeeeeeeeease give us some indication of when the court date is - purely for selfish reasons - you did wrong (forget about whether the Garda should be off catching 'proper' criminals) and you've a court appearance through your own fault - and I want to know when to keep an eye out for the outcome...

I asked that on page two . When we get an answer I'll meet you there. You bring the sambo's..I'll bring the flask of coffee! (you take Milk.Sugar?:D)

hey page 13...whohoo!

Crippens1

I have never enjoyed a lunch-time read as much as this one; Joyce couldn't have betttered it.

In case the OP doesn't notify us, does anyone know how court schedules can be checked because I would gladly take a day off to see this one.

Still laughing ...

la calera

07Lapierre wrote: »

I asked that on page two . When we get an answer I'll meet you there. You bring the sambo's..I'll bring the flask of coffee! (you take Milk.Sugar?:D)

hey page 13...whohoo!

My attention span was used up after the first page...I'll never remember to bring the sambos!!!!

Crippens1 wrote: »

I have never enjoyed a lunch-time read as much as this one; Joyce couldn't have betttered it.

In case the OP doesn't notify us, does anyone know how court schedules can be checked because I would gladly take a day off to see this one.

Still laughing ...

Really need to know the defendants surname as far as I know (and even then it would be quite a trawl, there's quite a lot of courts)...they don't file cases as 'caught without lights on a bike' but they should!!!

shg101

You all are being royally trolled by the way....

DirkVoodoo

shg101 wrote: »

You all are being royally trolled by the way....

What is this modern internet phenomenon of calling everything trolling? A troll is there to aggravate and annoy, this is nothing of the sort. It's a mild irritation at best.

Some people just suffer from good old fashioned human stupidity.

mcgratheoin

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It's a mild irritation at best.

At worst don't you mean? If this is trolling, then it's philanthropic trolling - a wonderful gift to the cycling community of boards

DirkVoodoo

mcgratheoin wrote: »

At worst don't you mean? If this is trolling, then it's philanthropic trolling - a wonderful gift to the cycling community of boards

That's the one! Exactly, you normally have to pay money for this kind of entertainment. A troll would have you bashing the keyboard by now.

brianthebard

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't think the Guard was wrong per se, I think he chose poorly through lack of experience.

In a different life I spent a lot of time working with Public Order Units in the UK, and you quickly learned to avoid working with the younger officers because their lack of experience meant they hadn't developed an effective range of strategies for dealing with "tense" situations, compared to older, more experienced lads.

Numpty wasn't / isn't a bad copper, by the sounds of it he just lacked a bit of cop-on (excuse the pun). Unfortunately for him he ran into the OP who himself seems to be equally deficient in that department.

The problem here is you're trusting the OP to be right about this rookie guard nonsense when everything else about his post screams victim complex and spiteful attempts to paint himself in the right. We don't know what the guard said, who he was or how much experience he had, only what the OP thought of him, which was that he was a numpty for getting between the OP and his football match.

la calera wrote: »

Really need to know the defendants surname as far as I know (and even then it would be quite a trawl, there's quite a lot of courts)...they don't file cases as 'caught without lights on a bike' but they should!!!

Could be roche?

rochie16

Dear God this thread has dragged on.

I’m willing to make a few concessions having read most of the posts

The Garda was undoubtedly an idiot turned prick. None of you were there. He stops me for no lights, I apologised, explained that I usually have them and it wouldn’t happen again. This was nothing but a mistake; people seem to think I’ve been cycling around for years without lights. A normal, sound, experienced Garda would have seen that I was sincere and that I had light holders, and sent me on my way confident it wouldn’t happen again. This Garda, being unreasonable, asked me to produce the lights. This request is something you would ask of an immature child, unaware of the safety risks of having no lights. Many of you will disagree with a lot of this.

Consequently, this is where I erred. I should have held my cool and not became argumentative. I should have negotiated the terms of when to produce the bike with lights. Instead, my anger caused me to antagonise the Garda, I will apologise for this. I have come across many, many Garda in my life. Treat the pricks like pricks and the gentleman like gentleman. I will have to add a sub note to this; unless, of course, the pricks have something on you. I will still mention to the judge that the terms producing the lights were unfair, which most will agree, they were. And I still personally think the whole situation regarding the producing of the lights is ridiculous, though clearly, the law is against me. I never said it wasn’t. People seem to think I have a problem with authority. I don’t. Though I do have a big problem with being treated unfairly by authoritive figures. I should maybe tone this down a notch or two.

I would have much preferred a €60 fine on the spot and went on my way, even if I didn’t have a football match. And yes, the Garda did tell me to cycle on home. I’d pay €60 not to get out of bed and cycle 14km (2x7k people) at 10.30 on a Saturday morning after a tough week. And I’d certainly pay the €60 not to let 10 of my team-mates down. And I work for my own money before anyone comments on the source of it.

I’ve been to court twice before, forgetting to produce, nothing major. Struck out on both occasions. I’ve seen many a case so I know how things go. So I’ll go to court (obviously I expected this), apologise, point out what I view to be unfair in an overly polite way, and tell a slight porky or two. A fine, as expected, is still worth it to me in my honest opinion, as long as it’s not harsh obviously.

You're all very welcome for the entertainment.

DirkVoodoo

rochie16 wrote: »

Dear God this thread has dragged on.

I’m willing to make a few concessions having read most of the posts

The Garda was undoubtedly an idiot turned prick. None of you were there. He stops me for no lights, I apologised, explained that I usually have them and it wouldn’t happen again. This was nothing but a mistake; people seem to think I’ve been cycling around for years without lights. A normal, sound, experienced Garda would have seen that I was sincere and that I had light holders, and sent me on my way confident it wouldn’t happen again.

The Garda doesn't know you, otherwise that defense could be applied to anything:

"I normally don't ever speed Garda, you can see my MPG here, there is no way I would be getting that if I had a lead foot".

In any case, he gave you the chance to prove it and you declined.

la calera

brianthebard wrote: »

The problem here is you're trusting the OP to be right about this rookie guard nonsense when everything else about his post screams victim complex and spiteful attempts to paint himself in the right. We don't know what the guard said, who he was or how much experience he had, only what the OP thought of him, which was that he was a numpty for getting between the OP and his football match.



Could be roche?

It's Wednesday...what can I say!! Sandwiches, or was it cake that was suggested on the court steps?

rochie16

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

The Garda doesn't know you, otherwise that defense could be applied to anything:

"I normally don't ever speed Garda, you can see my MPG here, there is no way I would be getting that if I had a lead foot".

In any case, he gave you the chance to prove it and you declined.

Woah, I can't argue with idiocy.

kmick

"I have come across many, many Garda in my life. Treat the pricks like pricks and the gentleman like gentleman. I will have to add a sub note to this; unless, of course, the pricks have something on you."

Treat the pricks and the gentlemen alike and you feel much better. I stopped beeping my car horn at bad drivers years ago because I realised it made me feel angry and bitter and made no difference whatsoever. I never realised how angry and bitter until one day a passenger leaned over and beeped the horn because he was so angry.

seamus

rochie16 wrote: »

I’ve been to court twice before, forgetting to produce, nothing major.

There's a pattern there. Most people have never been to court for anything.

Just something to think about.

DirkVoodoo

rochie16 wrote: »

Woah, I can't argue with idiocy.

Me an idiot? You wanted the Garda to let you off because you had mounts for lights. This doesn't in any way prove you own a set of lights.

The bike could be 2nd hand, you may have lost the lights, etc.

The fact you were happy to ride the bike without lights is all the justification the Garda needed.

If you can't cycle 14km on a saturday morning to show a set of lights on your bike and prefer to take a fine, you must be the most unfit footballer, I'm surprised you thought missing the game would be a detriment to your team.

Hungrycol

rochie16 wrote: »

I’d pay €60 not to get out of bed and cycle 14km (2x7k people) at 10.30 on a Saturday morning after a tough week.

Trust me, you don't know the meaning of a tough week.

rochie16 wrote: »

tell a slight porky or two.

brianthebard

rochie16 wrote: »

Dear God this thread has dragged on.

I’m willing to make a few concessions having read most of the posts

The Garda was undoubtedly an idiot turned prick. None of you were there. He stops me for no lights, I apologised, explained that I usually have them and it wouldn’t happen again. This was nothing but a mistake; people seem to think I’ve been cycling around for years without lights. A normal, sound, experienced Garda would have seen that I was sincere and that I had light holders, and sent me on my way confident it wouldn’t happen again. This Garda, being unreasonable, asked me to produce the lights. This request is something you would ask of an immature child, unaware of the safety risks of having no lights. Many of you will disagree with a lot of this.

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!

la calera wrote: »

It's Wednesday...what can I say!! Sandwiches, or was it cake that was suggested on the court steps?

sorry if it seemed sarcastic wasn't meant that way, was just me guessing like.

rochie16

Hungrycol wrote: »

Trust me, you don't know the meaning of a tough week.

Trust me mate, tougher than you.

DirkVoodoo

rochie16 wrote: »

Trust me mate, tougher than you.

I think he meant his week was tougher, not he is tougher than you.

" 'Ave it!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gcvg_DffpE

Hungrycol

rochie16 wrote: »

Trust me mate, tougher than you.

put up your dooks

rochie16

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Me an idiot? You wanted the Garda to let you off because you had mounts for lights. This doesn't in any way prove you own a set of lights.

The bike could be 2nd hand, you may have lost the lights, etc.

The fact you were happy to ride the bike without lights is all the justification the Garda needed.

If you can't cycle 14km on a saturday morning to show a set of lights on your bike and prefer to take a fine, you must be the most unfit footballer, I'm surprised you thought missing the game would be a detriment to your team.

First of all, I had no other option but to cycle. I wasn't planning on staying untill it got dark. A couple of hours of work went down the drain and I had to redo it, hence I left at 9 instead of 6.

Also, you should improve your reading comprehension skills. The time of the match coincided with the time of the producing. Nothing to do with not being able. Hilarious last line by the way.