The Gutless Big Four.

ejmaztec

We'd be getting a much better deal, if at least one of the big four grew a pair and triggered off a price-war, but they all seem happy to co-exist in relative harmony, while we're getting screwed more than we should.

Grocery prices drop 14% in 18 months

CONOR POPE
The price of branded goods in the State’s main retailers has fallen significantly in the past 18 months, according to a National Consumer Agency (NCA) grocery survey.
The study showed the price of branded goods fell by an average of 14 per cent from January 2009 to July 2010.
The survey, however, found price matching among the big four retailers continues to hinder competition.
The NCA survey compares the price of a basket of 103 branded grocery items in Tesco, Dunnes Stores and Superquinn, and a basket of 87 items when SuperValu is included.
It showed there was virtually no price difference on branded goods between Tesco, Dunnes Stores and Superquinn, with a difference of only €1.14 or 0.4 per cent between the cheapest and most expensive for its sample basket.

the rest of it's here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0810/breaking29.html

Nody

ejmaztec wrote: »

We'd be getting a much better deal, if at least one of the big four grew a pair and triggered off a price-war, but they all seem happy to co-exist in relative harmony, while we're getting screwed more than we should.

Why should they? Their job and only duty is to get as much for their goods as possible to give the largest possible profits to their shareholders. That is it; nothing else, nothing more.

ejmaztec

Nody wrote: »

Why should they? Their job and only duty is to get as much for their goods as possible to give the largest possible profits to their shareholders. That is it; nothing else, nothing more.

Increasing turnover and market share, which in turn generates more dividend-income for the shareholders.

mike65

The obsession with the "Big 4" is the problem. Get yourself down to Lidl/Aldi and don't be a snob

gerrycollins

if the big four are engaging in it why not look at lidl and aldi most of their prices are the same for similar products.

6 pack of fresh chicken fillets are €6.99 in each. While this is cheaper than the "big 4" they are still practising the same technically.

Lawr

gerrycollins wrote: »

if the big four are engaging in it why not look at lidl and aldi most of their prices are the same for similar products.

6 pack of fresh chicken fillets are €6.99 in each. While this is cheaper than the "big 4" they are still practising the same technically.

Agree with Mike65. If more people shopped for price first, the big four would drop prices to Lidl/Aldi levels; at which point, the Lidl/Aldi would have to drop prices even further in order to maintain their identity as a discount store.

As for the claims that grocery prices are lower by 14%, look at the source. I wouldn't trust any of the government agencies to tell the truth: not the NCA, not RTE. Just mouthpieces for the government.

davo10

The NCA is good and does provide valuable insights into market conditions but they nearly always undo their good work by shoddy research. If they wanted to do a comprehensive market report, why did the not include Lidl and Aldi in their price comparisons?, because if they had the headlines would not be as loud, the research would have shown that people have a choice by shopping in these lower cost supermarkets. You cannot compare half the market and ignore all the lower cost alternatives then decry the lack of competition, not in any sector. The NCA need to get their act togther and stop trying to be sensationalist, their research tends to be at best lazy and at worst intentionaly misleading.

baztard

This was a survey of branded goods. Am i right in saying Lidl and Aldi don't sell branded goods, so there was no point in surveying them!?

mcwhirter

Thats it then. more trips to the north

davo10

Last time I checked there was brands on the goods in Lidl and Aldi. Why would it be a surprise if the same goods cost the same considering the "big 4" operate in the same market, have the same wages, same operating costs, have roughly similar floor areas/rates/locations etc, have the same utilities bills etc?, what is new with this?, do you think if Asda, Walmart etc come here that they will charge the same as in UK/US. Look at Ikea, it may be cheaper than most furniture shops here but charges more here than in UK/Europe for the same thing, why?, it's because it costs more to retail here.

ejmaztec

davo10 wrote: »

Last time I checked there was brands on the goods in Lidl and Aldi. Why would it be a surprise if the same goods cost the same considering the "big 4" operate in the same market, have the same wages, same operating costs, have roughly similar floor areas/rates/locations etc, have the same utilities bills etc?, what is new with this?, do you think if Asda, Walmart etc come here that they will charge the same as in UK/US. Look at Ikea, it may be cheaper than most furniture shops here but charges more here than in UK/Europe for the same thing, why?, it's because it costs more to retail here.

But not the usual UK/US multi-national brands, with a few exceptions.

mike65

ejmaztec while I have'nt compared the prices you can buy Campells soup, Lyons Tea, HP Sauce, Mars bars and 7Up etc in Lidl as easily as you can in any of the "full price" supermarkets. The range of famous names is expanding steadily, though I still buy no-names myself purely out of spite.

ejmaztec

mike65 wrote: »

ejmaztec while I have'nt compared the prices you can buy Campells soup, Lyons Tea, HP Sauce, Mars bars and 7Up etc in Lidl as easily as you can in any of the "full price" supermarkets. The range of famous names is expanding steadily, though I still buy no-names myself purely out of spite.

That's why I said "a few exceptions" cos I've seen em as well:P

Ghandee

Nody wrote: »

Why should they? Their job and only duty is to get as much for their goods as possible to give the largest possible profits to their shareholders. That is it; nothing else, nothing more.

You see that answer right here, that gets right on my feckin wick!

With an attitude like this, is it any feckin wonder we get shafted at the tills and beyond in this country!!!!

Classic example of how us Irish pay what's demanded and say feck all, leaving us open to get shafted by the big four!

Nody, you summed up RIP OFF IRELAND to a Tee with that, typical, boring and downright arrogant response!

KerranJast

Gucky wrote: »

You see that answer right here, that gets right on my feckin wick!

With an attitude like this, is it any feckin wonder we get shafted at the tills and beyond in this country!!!!

Classic example of how us Irish pay what's demanded and say feck all, leaving us open to get shafted by the big four!

Nody, you summed up RIP OFF IRELAND to a Tee with that, typical, boring and downright arrogant response!

Wow overreact much? Nody made a perfectly valid point that retailers don't owe anything to their customers with regards to price. Their number 1 job is to maximize their profits as a return for their owner/shareholders (as it is with every company).
As someone else said, we'll stop getting shafted at the tills when people get off their arses and head to Aldi and Lidl more. A serious move in that direction from the main multiples will force them to lower prices as a block.

Ghandee

KerranJast wrote: »

Wow overreact much? Nody made a perfectly valid point that retailers don't owe anything to their customers with regards to price. Their number 1 job is to maximize their profits as a return for their owner/shareholders (as it is with every company).
As someone else said, we'll stop getting shafted at the tills when people get off their arses and head to Aldi and Lidl more. A serious move in that direction from the main multiples will force them to lower prices as a block.

All I'm pointing out is that a typical answer like this, is why the big supermarkets can and will overcharge us at the tills!

I do most of my shopping in Aldi, (I find it superior to Lidl) and have been trying to entice as many as my friends and colleagues to start getting their bums down to Aldi/Lidl also.

Just hate the attitude of some of the folk on these threads. The big four SHOULD be trying to entice us in, they SHOULD be trying to have the lowest prices possible on offer to us. I know from experience that making a small profit from LOTS of people, will always stand over your name and reputation than simply being madly overpriced, and making an extortianate profit from a small amount of people!

I can't wait for ASDA to enter the Irish Market, if/when this happens, so long as they don't decide to sit on the fence and jump in the price fixing band wagon that the rest of them do, we should eventually see out grocery bills come in line with the rest of Europe.

Rant over

Nody

Gucky wrote: »

Just hate the attitude of some of the folk on these threads. The big four SHOULD be trying to entice us in, they SHOULD be trying to have the lowest prices possible on offer to us.

Why? Because you say so? Do you seriously think that they have NOT calculated on it already (hint of the day, this is what is done at least every six months in most businesses)?

Lets say for the go into a price war. Now to make that profitable they need to end up winning it AND pull in enough more people to offset the new lower price margin on all items (lets say 2x the numbers by cutting their margin and taking in the cost of the price war) and all of this because you say it would bring them so sky high profits to make it worth it (which if true would already have several firms here doing it). Do you have any idea how difficult that is to pull off?

I know from experience that making a small profit from LOTS of people, will always stand over your name and reputation than simply being madly overpriced, and making an extortianate profit from a small amount of people!

Yet it is not a small amount of people now is it? It is the great majority if people who keep on shopping in the same shop day in and day out. Hence the option is make small money from lots of people or big profits from sort of lots of people. First require a lot of people to change habits for shopping and the risks of the war, the second simply require sitting still enjoying your margins.

I can't wait for ASDA to enter the Irish Market, if/when this happens, so long as they don't decide to sit on the fence and jump in the price fixing band wagon that the rest of them do, we should eventually see out grocery bills come in line with the rest of Europe.

Suuuure, Asda will say to themselves, lets make LESS profit then possible to give the Irish shoppers a better price. Or, maybe just maybe they will say what Lidl did when they came in and charge as much as they can while still being cheaper then their competition...

Absolam

I agree, I'm amazed that the NCA think that making legislative changes to 'entice' big box retailers creates a more competitive environment. The market is competitive when each player stands own their own feet without aid or intervention. And if Asda or Sainsburys or any of others in the UK thought they could make a profit competing in Ireland they'd be here like a shot, without incentives. The fact that they're not here says just how competitive the market already is.

ejmaztec

Absolam wrote: »

I agree, I'm amazed that the NCA think that making legislative changes to 'entice' big box retailers creates a more competitive environment. The market is competitive when each player stands own their own feet without aid or intervention. And if Asda or Sainsburys or any of others in the UK thought they could make a profit competing in Ireland they'd be here like a shot, without incentives. The fact that they're not here says just how competitive the market already is.

They'd be here soon enough if they didn't have to build new shops all over the country i.e. if they could get their hands on Dunnes for a good price. At the present time however, it would be a risky business for anyone to set up in the Irish market.

I think that competition has nothing to do with it, because there's not much competing taking place. I also think that there will be some competition when mass-emigration kicks off, leaving stores fighting to get the remaining population through their doors

91011

mcwhirter wrote: »

Thats it then. more trips to the north

based on the NCA survey of branded goods and taking all the items that can be bought in north & south in same size, same brand & same variation, the was no price difference. (I did the comparison using the mysupermarket.co.uk site) - In fact Tesco Tallaght came out cheaper than the combined lowest UK prices by just over a euro.


When you look at inflation figures and changes in currency you'll see why.

Since Jan 2009, sterling has strengthened by approx 12%
Irish food prices have fallen by 14% (CSO figures)
UK retail price inflation totaled 8.2% (18 month figure)

So assuming the NI prices were 33% cheaper than ROI back then (about correct imo) then take above figures into account and you back to near parity on pricing.

Absolam

ejmaztec wrote: »

They'd be here soon enough if they didn't have to build new shops all over the country i.e. if they could get their hands on Dunnes for a good price. At the present time however, it would be a risky business for anyone to set up in the Irish market.

I think that competition has nothing to do with it, because there's not much competing taking place. I also think that there will be some competition when mass-emigration kicks off, leaving stores fighting to get the remaining population through their doors

That's my point... if it was easy to compete here they'd be doing it. And I would say that if it's apparent there's price matching going on then that is competition. Any retailer who wasn't trying to compete with another wouldn't match their price.

91011

What I have always noticed too, is that when Lidl / Aldi have a branded product, their prices are almost identical to the other supermarkets. Tuc Crackers, Coca cola, Heinz Ketchup, Batchelors Beans, Tayto, Mikado, Cadbury fingers etc etc.

All virtually identical in price.

Lawr

91011 wrote: »

What I have always noticed too, is that when Lidl / Aldi have a branded product, their prices are almost identical to the other supermarkets. Tuc Crackers, Coca cola, Heinz Ketchup, Batchelors Beans, Tayto, Mikado, Cadbury fingers etc etc.

All virtually identical in price.

I don't know enough about the way things work in Ireland, but there was announcement the other day about some company or another getting the contract to distribute Audi products in Ireland. Here it is: "Motor retail group Charles Hurst has bought Dublin's Audi Centre Ltd, which distributes Audi cars in Ireland", was the headline on RTE. It seems that this company markets Audis to all the Audi dealerships throughout the country if I am understanding it correctly. In other words, they control what comes in and who markets the product. I imagine that this company also controls price, at least to some extent. I also imagine that dealers are kicking something back to this main distributer. With that in mind, you have to wonder how much of the price of a product goes toward paying the Don, in this pyramid scheme, for which you and I (consumers) serve as the foundation stones.

I've noticed the same thing about wine here. I ask retailers why they don't get such and such a label or why the French wines in France that cost 6 euro a bottle are so delicious and the French wines that we pay 15 euro for are ****e, and their answer is consistently that they can only get what their distributors offer. In other words, there is some similar group of investors, as with automobile distribution, who control the market. Demand controls a limited market instead of a truly global market, or even European, market. I know for a fact that if the California wines that I used to drink back in Illinois were available here, people here would have a much better opinion of California wines. The Californians that you see on the shelf here are strictly volume-guzzling wines, not for discerning palates. Of course, unlike the French wines, Californians have been overpriced for eons. But the French wines we get here should be cheaper and of better quality if there is truly a single European market.

My point is that there seems to be too many middle-men in the market here. Why does not each franchise deal directly with the company instead of some middle company which represents the main company. It's very much a Catholic structure when you think of it. Can't speak to God, but must go through the priest, and the priest through the bishop, and the bishop through the cardinal, and the cardinal through the pontiff, before finally getting your message to God.

I think consumers need a red phone.

pleasant Co.

91011 wrote: »

What I have always noticed too, is that when Lidl / Aldi have a branded product, their prices are almost identical to the other supermarkets. Tuc Crackers, Coca cola, Heinz Ketchup, Batchelors Beans, Tayto, Mikado, Cadbury fingers etc etc.

All virtually identical in price.

I found that lidl/aldi are always cheaper (than tesco/dunnes) with their branded products, granted it's only by a few cents but those cents add up, maybe that has changed now>?

the groutch

Lawr wrote: »

I don't know enough about the way things work in Ireland, but there was announcement the other day about some company or another getting the contract to distribute Audi products in Ireland. Here it is: "Motor retail group Charles Hurst has bought Dublin's Audi Centre Ltd, which distributes Audi cars in Ireland", was the headline on RTE. It seems that this company markets Audis to all the Audi dealerships throughout the country if I am understanding it correctly. In other words, they control what comes in and who markets the product. I imagine that this company also controls price, at least to some extent. I also imagine that dealers are kicking something back to this main distributer. With that in mind, you have to wonder how much of the price of a product goes toward paying the Don, in this pyramid scheme, for which you and I (consumers) serve as the foundation stones.

I've noticed the same thing about wine here. I ask retailers why they don't get such and such a label or why the French wines in France that cost 6 euro a bottle are so delicious and the French wines that we pay 15 euro for are ****e, and their answer is consistently that they can only get what their distributors offer. In other words, there is some similar group of investors, as with automobile distribution, who control the market. Demand controls a limited market instead of a truly global market, or even European, market. I know for a fact that if the California wines that I used to drink back in Illinois were available here, people here would have a much better opinion of California wines. The Californians that you see on the shelf here are strictly volume-guzzling wines, not for discerning palates. Of course, unlike the French wines, Californians have been overpriced for eons. But the French wines we get here should be cheaper and of better quality if there is truly a single European market.

My point is that there seems to be too many middle-men in the market here. Why does not each franchise deal directly with the company instead of some middle company which represents the main company. It's very much a Catholic structure when you think of it. Can't speak to God, but must go through the priest, and the priest through the bishop, and the bishop through the cardinal, and the cardinal through the pontiff, before finally getting your message to God.

I think consumers need a red phone.

it's always been the way
imagine if you owned a car dealers, and had to try deal directly with Audi/Toyota for the sake of a handful of cars at a time
or Dunnes/Tescos having to deal directly with the vineyards
it would be a logistical nightmare, so the distributor's take the hassle out of it, and because of the economies of scale of buying in on behalf of a huge number of retailers, they often save the retailers more money than the cut they take as an extra middleman

Lawr

I suppose I am thinking of when I was buying in for a restaurant I worked for in Austin, Texas. If I wanted booze, I had a number of wholesalers that were competing for our business. If you want to sell Audis, there is only one wholesaler. If you want to sell wine, you have a limited choice of wholesalers it seems. You will notice that most of the big four sell the same wines, and most of those wines are the same wines sold by Fine Wines and other retailers. Most of the bars sell the same wines. It is not because those are the wines most in demand, it is a case of them being the most in demand from the limited selection available.

Maybe your right. Maybe that is the way it always is.

gerrycollins

Lawr wrote: »

I suppose I am thinking of when I was buying in for a restaurant I worked for in Austin, Texas. If I wanted booze, I had a number of wholesalers that were competing for our business. If you want to sell Audis, there is only one wholesaler. If you want to sell wine, you have a limited choice of wholesalers it seems. You will notice that most of the big four sell the same wines, and most of those wines are the same wines sold by Fine Wines and other retailers. Most of the bars sell the same wines. It is not because those are the wines most in demand, it is a case of them being the most in demand from the limited selection available.

Maybe your right. Maybe that is the way it always is.

just to pick you up on the wines and such the issue in ireland is that all brands eg bend in the river is only available at a good price from their appointed wholesaler.

other independant wholesalers then buy it abroad and might sell it a few cents cheaper but they only have a limited supply at time compared with the appointed wholesaler who will have it all the time.

plus some bars only deal with one wholesaler mostly so their supply choice is limited