has anyone been done for driving alone on lp ?

Carlos_Ray

hobochris wrote: »

As has been said you get an experienced driver (who has held their licence for at least two years as the new law states) or pay for lessons.)

I was lucky enough to learn to drive in a time when the law wasn't in place, however, I have nothing but sympathy for those learning to drive now. When I was learning to drive I did 3 lessons and spent the rest of the time practising in my own in my car( which my instructor advised me to do). Its not feasible for all learners to find a person to accompany them everytime they want to drive, or pay for a huge amount of lessons (especially in this economic climate).

Eaten bread is soon forgotten which is why so many morons beep learners at traffic lights. Standing alone, the law is a farce (like most things introduced by this government). If they want to make the roads safer and implement this law sensibly, they should introduce driving into the secondary school cirriculum to accompany the new regulations.


In my opinion the guards would be better off dealing with the thousands of idiot drivers the plague our roads rather than picking on learners ( who are often a lot safer in their approach to driving.) I know its been discussed on other threads but motorway driving is a disgrace in this country. Also, the level of drink driving (especially in rural areas) is appalling.

hobochris wrote: »

If money is a problem then that is your problem, driving is a privilege not a right( Many learners seem to have the misguided idea that it is the latter ).

I've never had problems with learner drivers, I've only had problems with the supposed "drivers" or "learners out of practice" as a lot seem to be, who think the road has been made just for their car and their idioitic habits. Something, that after driving in Germany and France I am begining to think is more widespread in Ireland than anywhere else.

Guy:Incognito

BTW to the 2 posters driving on learners permits, you may as well ring your insurance companies and tell them you have a full licence because if your going to drive a car without a licence, you may as well do it as cheaply as possible.

As for fully licenced drivers making plenty of mistakes, thats all well and good, but how is it ever going to change if everyone is teaching themselves to drive? I've never driven a bus but I'd happily give it a go, are you ok with me doing that with you on board?

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Its not feasible for all learners to find a person to accompany them everytime they want to drive, or pay for a huge amount of lessons (especially in this economic climate).

People seem to manage just fine in more civilised countries, why not here? It's good that you mention drivign in Germany, how do you think the people got on there where it can cost up to €10k to get you licence?

and a major issue with your sentence there is "everytime they want to drive" . They are not entitled to drive a car on their own so must either pay or wait till someone else is free to accompany them.

cython

Jenna69 wrote: »

This type of statement really annoys me. Fit to be on the road with you????????????????? Who do you think you are?????????????????
Anyone on a LP that i know (inlcuding myself) takes more care and caution on the roads because we are on a LP. And i only got my LP in April so it will be at least October before i can take my test so don't say get the test done, i will do my test when i feel ready to do it and not a second before. We all have to start somewhere so give us a chance! Like i said before full licence holders don't want LP holders on the road at all. Well tough!:p:p:p

Ok, the legalities of the situation are clear, and have been discussed, but this piece in bold stands out to me. First off, the OP has said that they failed a test already, so evidently they thought at the time that they were ready to do it, and if you have specific things to improve on like observation, then it should be possible to be ready to repeat it relatively quickly.

The second issue I have with this as a general point is that (and I am not assuming that you do drive unaccompanied, by any means, rather I am just trying to speak in general terms) if a driver thinks that they are fit to be on the road alone, then it should not be that much of an issue for them to prove it by passing the test. I will not give any notice to a driver who tries to make the claim that they are fit to drive alone, while at the same time saying they are not ready to sit the test.

-Chris-

@everyone - can I just take a moment to remind you that txt spk is against the Charter?

Thanks

Carlos_Ray

Stekelly wrote: »

People seem to manage just fine in more civilised countries, why not here?
.

A lot of these "civilised" countries include driving in the school cirriculum.

The law was an unimaginative approach to a major problem. I would expect nothing less from the current crop of tools who are running this country into the ground.

Guy:Incognito

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

A lot of these "civilised" countries include driving in the school cirriculum.
.

And plenty dont, they still manage.

My mother is German and had no driving experience done in school, yet she still managed to get the money together and go through the proper channels.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The law was an unimaginative approach to a major problem. I would expect nothing less from the current crop of tools who are running this country into the ground.

This is just government bashing for the sake of it.

There is no arguement to be made against not letting people apply for a bit of paper in the post and hopping straight in to a car to drive.

The only bit of stupidity on the governments part was letting it go on so long the way it was.


People as a rule here are stupid and /or ignorant about driving. Motorways being a perfect example. I learned to drive in the same country as most of the other people on the roads and before there was a theory test yet I managed to educate myself on the proper use of motorways. It's not very hard yet 70 -80% of the traffic on the M50 is in the middle lane. People need to be forcibly thought the rules because the majority wont do it themselves.

furtzy

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

A lot of these "civilised" countries include driving in the school cirriculum.

The law was an unimaginative approach to a major problem. I would expect nothing less from the current crop of tools who are running this country into the ground.

Plenty don't. UK for example. Try driving around over there unaccompanied....you'll be walking home with 3 to 6 points

djimi

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

A lot of these "civilised" countries include driving in the school cirriculum.

The law was an unimaginative approach to a major problem. I would expect nothing less from the current crop of tools who are running this country into the ground.

So how do you propose they amend the law? Should they change it to let all learners drive unaccompanied whenever they feel like it just because its too expensive or inconvenient for them to learn properly?

There are other countries that do not allow learners on the road at all. I think I read the other day that in Holland the average is something like 70 hours of tuition before you pass your test; that equates to €2800 worth of lessons over here. It expensive to learn to drive in this country, but we have it a lot easier than other countries do.

Henry Ford III

The relative driving skills of learners and others are simply not relevant.

The point is fully licensed drivers, be they of good ability or otherwise, are allowed drive alone.

Learner permit holders are not.

I think any L.P. holders who choose to drove alone are essentially sticking their 2 fingers up to the law, and should be punished for it.

Carlos_Ray

djimi wrote: »

So how do you propose they amend the law? Should they change it to let all learners drive unaccompanied whenever they feel like it just because its too expensive or inconvenient for them to learn properly?.

If you read my previous posts you realise I think the law should have been accompanied by introducing driving as part of the school cirriculum. Driving in this country is a total mess. Its wasn't so long ago that drivers were given their full license without even sitting a test just to clear a backlog.

djimi wrote: »

There are other countries that do not allow learners on the road at all. I think I read the other day that in Holland the average is something like 70 hours of tuition before you pass your test; that equates to €2800 worth of lessons over here. It expensive to learn to drive in this country, but we have it a lot easier than other countries do.

As with most things in Ireland, we are ripped off. Driving lessons are cheaper on the continent, as are cars and insurance. Up until fairly recently car insurance in Ireland was criminally expensive.

introducing the law on its own is not enough to stop the stupidity on Irish roads.

I believe that people should be required to sit a test every 10 years... Im sure everybody who is really concerned with safe roads would have no objection to this. That would really seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of real drivers. In the meantime, I think driving/motoring should be a school subject taught once a week/fortnight from first year (theory) with option of practical lessons (subsidised) from 5 th year. That would significantly improve driving in this country while at the same time reducing the cost of those learning and enabling them to obey law.

knipex

Jenna69 wrote: »

Wow you've done your homework ha ha!

Yes patrickc i am a Learner Driver so i don't know everything about everything but who does. I'm sure full licence drivers don't know everything either. Just because you pass your test doesn't mean that all of a sudden you know everything there is to know about driving. Once you start driving you are learning for life. Everyday driving throws up different situations that you have to deal with and learn from.

And i'm definitely not naiive to think i'm an excellent driver at this stage.

Passign a driving test shows you a "minimal" level of competence.

That all.

If you don't have a full license (or passed the test) then you have not demonstrated that and should not be on the road unaccompanied.

The Irish driving test is not hard. its actually pretty basic.

djimi

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

If you read my previous posts you realise I think the law should have been accompanied by introducing driving as part of the school cirriculum. Driving in this country is a total mess. Its wasn't so long ago that drivers were given their full license without even sitting a test just to clear a backlog.

I absolutely agree with you; I think drivers ed should be brought into schools over here. But it still wouldnt change the fact that learners have no business driving on the roads unaccompanied; teaching the rules of the road to kids in school is not going to make them competant drivers the first time they get behind the wheel of a car at 17 years of age.

loobylou

Heres my proposal. REDUCE the age at which someone can get a learners permit from 17 to 16.
Make driving part of the syllabus for all transition year students.

knipex

laser2121 wrote: »

so ur tellingme thar having the clutch pressed down gives me less control over my car

how ??

If you don't understand this basic concept then you most certainly should not be on the road.

While driving the clutch should only be pressed when changing gear and when just about to stop.

When a car is connected to the engine (ie when the clutch is up) it prides a means of changing speed both by engine braking and acceleration. You are providing a positive input to the car and hence are actually in control.

When coasting the car is free wheeling with no input so it takes longer to make minute changes to speed either up or down.

Its one of the first things any driver is taught and after any period of driving the reasons become obvious.

Carlos_Ray

djimi wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you; I think drivers ed should be brought into schools over here. But it still wouldnt change the fact that learners have no business driving on the roads unaccompanied; teaching the rules of the road to kids in school is not going to make them competant drivers the first time they get behind the wheel of a car at 17 years of age.

No but it will create an atmosphere that will encourage( and most importantly enable them) to obey the law. This is fast becoming an elitist country. Driving is vital for many people here. In many areas they need it in order to earn a living and feed their families. Its shouldn't be a privilege restricted to those with money. Subsidiesd lessons ( while in school) will reduce the amount of full priced lessons required after school. It would also provide employment for hundreds of people while at the same time improving road safety. Its a win win situation.

knipex

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

No but it will create an atmosphere that will encourage( and most importantly enable them) to obey the law. This is fast becoming an elitist country. Driving is vital for many people here. In many areas they need it in order to earn a living and feed their families. Its shouldn't be a privilege restricted to those with money. Subsidiesd lessons ( while in school) will reduce the amount of full priced lessons required after school. It would also provide employment for hundreds of people while at the same time improving road safety. Its a win win situation.

if you cannot afford a few lessons then how the hell are you expecting to run a car ?

Carlos_Ray

knipex wrote: »

if you cannot afford a few lessons then how the hell are you expecting to run a car ?

Eh... become a name driver.... you're not going to be driving cross country when you're learning are you? A few lessons trips around town. Then when you get your full license your employment prospects increase, you get a job and you can afford to run your own car.... Not rocket science.


Besides the price of the number of lessons now required... vastly exceeds the price of a start up car.

Anan1

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

No but it will create an atmosphere that will encourage( and most importantly enable them) to obey the law. This is fast becoming an elitist country. Driving is vital for many people here. In many areas they need it in order to earn a living and feed their families. Its shouldn't be a privilege restricted to those with money. Subsidiesd lessons ( while in school) will reduce the amount of full priced lessons required after school. It would also provide employment for hundreds of people while at the same time improving road safety. Its a win win situation.

So basically the State pays for people to learn to drive? No thanks - there are a million areas in education that i'm happy to fund, but learning to drive isn't one of them.

RustyNut

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I believe that people should be required to sit a test every 10 years... Im sure everybody who is really concerned with safe roads would have no objection to this. That would really seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of real drivers. In the meantime, I think driving/motoring should be a school subject taught once a week/fortnight from first year (theory) with option of practical lessons (subsidised) from 5 th year. That would significantly improve driving in this country while at the same time reducing the cost of those learning and enabling them to obey law.

Now there is a little sense.

Dutchess

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

As with most things in Ireland, we are ripped off. Driving lessons are cheaper on the continent, as are cars and insurance.

Being from the Netherlands, I can say that learning to drive and buying a car is more expensive over there. It is indeed true that you cannot legally drive without an instructor in a dual controlled car unless you have a full license. An the cost of an hour's tuition there is at least €40,- I pay €27 per hour for my driving lessons in Galway. I am looking to buy my first car in the next few days. I do get tempted by the idea of taking it for a spin on my own but I will avoid this apart from maybe practising turnabout/reverse corner/hillstart in my housing estate. Other than that friend and boyfriend's family will have to come in:) I do find it frustrating (and I only found this out recently:o) that you have to have your LP for 6 months before being allowed to sit your first test. If I would have known this I'd probably waited a few months before starting with lessons and probably only buy a car after passing.

Carlos_Ray

Anan1 wrote: »

So basically the State pays for people to learn to drive? No thanks - there are a million areas in education that i'm happy to fund, but learning to drive isn't one of them.

I guess you can put a price life on life then, exaclty the mentality that makes Irish roads so dangerous....:rolleyes:

What would you rather is taught in school then... something really important like... home economics?? I'd really love to hear about your million areas by the way.

Silly me for thinking the state should create jobs, educate , and improve safety in one swoop. That is being a little bit too idealistic isn't it

djimi

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

No but it will create an atmosphere that will encourage( and most importantly enable them) to obey the law. This is fast becoming an elitist country. Driving is vital for many people here. In many areas they need it in order to earn a living and feed their families. Its shouldn't be a privilege restricted to those with money. Subsidiesd lessons ( while in school) will reduce the amount of full priced lessons required after school. It would also provide employment for hundreds of people while at the same time improving road safety. Its a win win situation.

Its not a privilage for those who have money. Its expensive to learn to drive but not prohibitatively so. Insurance is the most expensive part of driving in this country, but that affects everyone, and frankly is a debate for another thread.

Driving is a privilage. It is a privilage for those who have proven they have the necessary skills to drive a car. This attitude that "oh well I need a car to get to work and cant afford to wait until I pass my test" is rubbish, but I dont care if you live on the top of the Wicklow mountains and are 20 miles from the nearest shop; if you have not proven yourself skillful enough to be on the road safely then you dont belong on the road. Everyone has to learn, and do so safely. Just because some peoples living circumstances mean having a car is more urgent than for others does not excuse them having to learn in a safe manner. It really annoys me that people can potentially put other peoples lives at risk just because they are too impatient to learn to drive properly.

Sorry, that turned into a rant that wasnt entirely directly soley at your post! I agree, introduce drivers ed into school, subsedise lessons in schools so that people learn to drive from a young age (I honestly believe that there is no reason for anyone over the of about 24 not to be able to at least make a car move from A to and get people into the mindset of driving properly from a young age. It wont solve all the problems, but it might help.

Cookie_Monster

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I guess you can put a price life on life then, exaclty the mentality that makes Irish roads so dangerous....:rolleyes:

that kind of valid I suppose, but mainly because people have no respect for basic laws, rather than lack of education.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

What would you rather is taught in school then... something really important like... home economics??

home economic if it was modernised and taught properly would be far the best and most useful subject for everyone. DIY, budgeting, nutrition, cooking skills etc. Key things in everyone's life that get totally neglected by the education system.

Anan1

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I guess you can put a price life on life then, exaclty the mentality that makes Irish roads so dangerous....:rolleyes:

What would you rather is taught in school then... something really important like... home economics?? I'd really love to hear about your million areas by the way.

Silly me for thinking the state should create jobs, educate , and improve safety in one swoop. That is being a little bit too idealistic isn't it

If that's how you feel then why stop at paying for people to learn to drive, why not pay for their cars/insurance/fuel/road tax too?

Carlos_Ray

Anan1 wrote: »

If that's how you feel then why stop at paying for people to learn to drive, why not pay for their cars/insurance/fuel/road tax too?

Its not as simple as paying for people to learn how to drive. Its about educating citizens about road safety and motoring from a young age, and then offering them the opportunity of CHEAPER lessons when they reach 17 until they leave school.

We would all benefit from that in the long run. Can't you see, its not just about "paying for lessons" (which btw I never advocated). Its about improving society, saving lives, which in the long run will benefit you, your family, and (less importantly) your wallet because insurance would be reduced in a safer climate. The state would save lives and money in the long run.

loobylou

Anan1 wrote: »

So basically the State pays for people to learn to drive? No thanks - there are a million areas in education that i'm happy to fund, but learning to drive isn't one of them.

I don't agree with you but I was not even suggesting that the state should pay for it.
Transition year students do a lot of extra curricular activities for which they pay extra. It should not be difficult to get an instructor to visit a school for a daily rate, divided up by the number of students.There would be substantial economies of scale for the instructor making it viable.
Study for the theory test could be incorporated into CSPE for the Junior Cert.
Practical driving lessons could be given if needed with 2-3 students in the car at a time, swapping driving time of course.
The problem with the present system is the students cannot get their LP until they are at least 17.
By then transition year is usually over and there would not be time to fit the above into a Leaving Certificate syllabus.

**Timbuk2**

The driving test only lasts 25 minutes, and all you have to do is drive in 50km/h zones making less than 9 serious faults to pass.

If you can't pass the driving test then you, or anybody else, has no business driving unaccompanied on the road - it isn't fair to those who have passed their test and proved that they are competent enough to drive on their own.

The learning process never stops with driving, but passing your test is the only way of being allowed to learn without an accompanied driver. You haven't passed that yet, so you are not able to drive without an experienced accompanied driver to guide you.

Besides, if you don't drive alone when on an LP it feels like so much more freedom when you finally pass

Stark

loobylou wrote:

I don't agree with you but I was not even suggesting that the state should pay for it.
Transition year students do a lot of extra curricular activities for which they pay extra. It should not be difficult to get an instructor to visit a school for a daily rate, divided up by the number of students.There would be substantial economies of scale for the instructor making it viable.
Study for the theory test could be incorporated into CSPE for the Junior Cert.
Practical driving lessons could be given if needed with 2-3 students in the car at a time, swapping driving time of course.
The problem with the present system is the students cannot get their LP until they are at least 17.
By then transition year is usually over and there would not be time to fit the above into a Leaving Certificate syllabus.

Is there some reason why someone can't take lessons from an instructor on their own time when they want to learn to drive? It's the Irish entitlement mentality of wanting the State to do everything for them, I'm surprised we don't have them bringing in people to teach people how to wipe their own arses.

high horse

This thread scares me a little bit...:(

The attitude of the learner drivers in this thread is shocking. Overconfidence, arrogance and recklessness is what I have to share the road with. Is it really that hard to get a licensed driver to accompany you? The laws are very clear and you don't get to choose the ones that suit you :mad:

loobylou

Stark wrote: »

Is there some reason why someone can't take lessons from an instructor on their own time when they want to learn to drive? It's the Irish entitlement mentality of wanting the State to do everything for them, I'm surprised we don't have them bringing in people to teach people how to wipe their own arses.

Did you read my post?