New Database Will Reveal Real Sale Price Of Properties

wyndham

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-database-will-reveal-real-sale-price-of-properties-2291804.html

Wednesday August 11 2010

HOUSE hunters will be able to find out the real prices of properties nationally for the first time on a government database -- so they will no longer have to rely on information from 'cowboy' auctioneers and estate agents.

Although the property market is still in a slump, the Government has recognised the need to provide such a database, with easily accessible and accurate information, including selling prices.

The move has been welcomed by the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute (IAVI), which said it would help to tackle the "cowboys" and "fly-by-night" auctioneers and estate agents who had misled buyers about prices.

Estate agents and other business groups also welcomed the announcement, saying the planned database would bring much-needed and overdue clarity to the property market.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern said the database would be set up by the National Property Services Regulatory Authority, once the necessary legislation has been passed later this year.

"I am very aware of the need for reliable and up-to-date data on house prices and other property," he said.

It is likely that the database will be compiled from information supplied to the Land Registry, which already receives the selling price and address of every property sold in the country.

The National Property Services Regulatory Authority (NPRSA) will be given the power to access the necessary data.

However, the NPRSA was unable last night to say when it would be able to get the database up and running.

A spokesman said it would have to wait and see what was required to be included in the database by the forthcoming legislation.

IAVI president Kersten Mehl said:"It will ensure transparency about what is going on in the housing market. This should have been done 30 years ago."

Transparent

He added that it would tackle the "cowboys" who had given professional auctioneers a bad name by giving inaccurate house prices.

Joan Henry, head of research at the real estate company Savills, welcomed the creation of the database, commenting: "The more complete and the more transparent the data, the better."

The CEO of Douglas Newman Good, Keith Lowe, also welcomed the announcement as being "good for the industry and good for the buyer".

He said the price index would "bring some realism to all the different price indices which are currently reporting different trends".

Niall O'Grady, head of business strategy at Permanent TSB, which produces a regular price index of its own, said the announcement was "great news" as Ireland was one of the few countries which did not already have such a register.

REMAX Ireland said the legislation was long overdue. Waterford-based auctioneer John Fogarty said: "Up to now, vendors had false expectations as they were basing everything on guide prices. On the other hand, purchasers were assuming that any asking price should be 20pc less."

The proposed register was also welcomed by Chambers Ireland and the Society of Chartered Surveyors, which insisted that the register must include all commercial property.- Michael Brennan and Grainne Cunningham

Irish Independent

Just wondering what affect people think this will have on prices, if any?
I expect this will increase downward pressure on prices when it eventually comes to pass. At the moment, sellers/estate agents are making it up as they go along. There will be hard and fast figures at last showing the real value of properties, real price drops, warts and all.

I also wonder if they will add the information retrospectively or just in the future. Presume they will have to add at least last 5 years sales information to 'get it going'. Would be very interesting reading if they do.

JoeyJJ

The legislation isn't going to get past until later this year and they don't know when they'll have it up and running. I wouldn't hold my breathe.

worded

Great idea and long over due.

LeahK

Happy days, it will be very interesting to see exactly whats happening out there

edanto

Whilst I welcome this, and think it makes a lot of sense in the macro, I would have a concern about privacy.

Are we basically saying that it's OK if everyone knows how much Mary down the road paid for her new house?

amacca

Long overdue......and I think its grand to know what Mary down the road paid for her house and I don't mind her knowing what I paid for mine if it comes to it.

Now any chance of compelling auctioneers to provide proof of rival bids if you're a serious buyer and a mystery bidder outbids you by 20K after you've placed a bid....the 20k strangely enough bringing you up to the limit you can borrow?


.....or will that type of gamesmanship always be part of the process.

spockety

edanto wrote: »

Whilst I welcome this, and think it makes a lot of sense in the macro, I would have a concern about privacy.

Are we basically saying that it's OK if everyone knows how much Mary down the road paid for her new house?

Works fine in the UK. Why is Ireland any different?

The_Conductor

edanto wrote: »

Whilst I welcome this, and think it makes a lot of sense in the macro, I would have a concern about privacy.

Are we basically saying that it's OK if everyone knows how much Mary down the road paid for her new house?

Just what is the concern about privacy?
I don't understand where you're coming from with this?
Its not as though anyone is going to know how the property was funded- i.e. with a 90% mortgage, or via an inheritance from wealthy parents......
I personally don't see any downside from the proposals- the only people who should fear this are shyster estate agents who have been lying to both buyers and sellers for years.

EKRIUQ

smccarrick wrote: »

I personally don't see any downside from the proposals- the only people who should fear this are shyster estate agents who have been lying to both buyers and sellers for years.

And how is this going to change that if only the final selling price is going to be displayed, not the offers before hand?

irishguy

Is this going to be retrospective ? I am guessing not?

The_Conductor

EKRIUQ wrote: »

And how is this going to change that if only the final selling price is going to be displayed, not the offers before hand?

Both parties will have open knowledge of the most recent property transactions in any given area- and know whether a valuation by an estate agent for a seller, or an offer by a prospective purchaser- is in keeping with market prices for the area.

Obviously any given seller is free to holdout for better offers- or any indeed undercut the market to offload a property quickly- but either of these actions would be apparent also.

Why do the offers on property matter? People are now habitually tossing in ridiculously low offers to see if they can see where the seller is coming from- surely the actual sale prices, as oppossed to spurious offers, are what matter?

worded

Here is a UK database site

www.myhouseprice.com

tara73

ok, I'm a bit surprised here...surprised by the positive outlook about this upcoming database.

My thoughts are: How can anybody still trust this government and think they intend to do a good thing to the potential buyers with this database?
For which reason they invent this database just to this time??? We all know prices are falling every month, why do we need just now this database, imo we never needed it less.
I would under no circumstances believe in the objectivity of this database. After all the mess we are in, people now believe in this new great idea from the government. Good luck!

For me it smells of another trick to boost the property market, to raise asking prices/house prices with this hidden way, presented as a help.

Maybe somebody can give me good reasons to believe it will be trustworthy, but not sure which ones that could be...

worded

tara73 wrote: »

ok, I'm a bit surprised here...surprised by the positive outlook about this upcoming database.

My thoughts are: How can anybody still trust this government and think they intend to do a good thing to the potential buyers with this database?
For which reason they invent this database just to this time??? We all know prices are falling every month, why do we need just now this database, imo we never needed it less.
I would under no circumstances believe in the objectivity of this database. After all the mess we are in, people now believe in this new great idea from the government. Good luck!

For me it smells of another trick to boost the property market, to raise asking prices/house prices with this hidden way, presented as a help.

Maybe somebody can give me good reasons to believe it will be trustworthy, but not sure which ones that could be...

The timing is suspect (and a bit late) all right.

Like new building regulations after hundreds or thousands of bad apts were built or retro insulating badly built houses.

This new database may keep some people honest in the future. I think its a good idea.

"we never needed it less" Better late than never.

"trustworthy" i dont see how figures can be just dreamed up.

Thoie

My first assumption when I heard about it earlier this week was "Ah, so that's how they're going to do a property tax".

The second was that people will now sell you their home for 100k, but the lightbulbs they leave in situ for you will cost 10k each.

kippy

Thoie wrote: »

My first assumption when I heard about it earlier this week was "Ah, so that's how they're going to a property tax".

The second was that people will now sell you their home for 100k, but the lightbulbs they leave in situ for you will cost 10k each.

Exactly what I was thinking.

On the outside this looks like a good, if not an exceptionally late idea however it's timing is completely out for anything that was designed to be "good" for the consumer.

professore

It always amazes me how quickly people play the privacy card in Ireland. In my experience the people shouting loudest for privacy are criminals and people with something to hide. If we had more openness and transparency the country would not be in the mess it's currently in. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

kippy

professore wrote: »

It always amazes me how quickly people play the privacy card in Ireland. In my experience the people shouting loudest for privacy are criminals and people with something to hide. If we had more openness and transparency the country would not be in the mess it's currently in. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

I am not playing the privacy card. Just playing the "theres something else in this", based on decades of lies and self serving from politicians.
I have no issues telling anyone what I paid for my house.

The_Conductor

kippy wrote: »

I am not playing the privacy card. Just playing the "theres something else in this", based on decades of lies and self serving from politicians.
I have no issues telling anyone what I paid for my house.

Politicians may lie- organs of the state do not however. If there is something they would rather you don't know- they will redact it, or refuse point blank to release it- they won't doctor it though. Opinions can be modified to suit a particular situation- hard data cannot. The exact contents of the data being released will be of interest- aka- if it gives the exact addresses, alongside dwelling size, no. of bedrooms and whether its an apartment, townhouse, semi D or Detached dwelling- aka information of genuine use to folk- is what matters.

I may hate politicians as much as the next person- they can row out the rhetoric and spin situations being all comprehension- organs of the state don't do this however- they stonewall you if they don't want to give you what you're looking for.........

Treehouse72

tara73 wrote: »

ok, I'm a bit surprised here...surprised by the positive outlook about this upcoming database.

My thoughts are: How can anybody still trust this government and think they intend to do a good thing to the potential buyers with this database?
For which reason they invent this database just to this time??? We all know prices are falling every month, why do we need just now this database, imo we never needed it less.
I would under no circumstances believe in the objectivity of this database. After all the mess we are in, people now believe in this new great idea from the government. Good luck!

For me it smells of another trick to boost the property market, to raise asking prices/house prices with this hidden way, presented as a help.

Maybe somebody can give me good reasons to believe it will be trustworthy, but not sure which ones that could be...

One possible answer is that the government has quite simply run out of road. They have done everything they could to prop up the property market, but as anyone with any sense has known all along, that was doomed to failure. At some point even FF have to accept this. And of course there's no money left to prop it up any more so their hand is being forced somewhat.

So, when they are out of options and money like this, the only option is to try to finally face up to reality by having a price database like the rest of Europe, which they can also use (probably) to assess property tax.

markpb

Thoie wrote: »

The second was that people will now sell you their home for 100k, but the lightbulbs they leave in situ for you will cost 10k each.

Followed quickly by a court case from Revenue because you lied in your property documents and underpaid your stamp duty.

tara73

smccarrick wrote: »

Politicians may lie- organs of the state do not however.

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with this statement:rolleyes:
It sounds a bit like they are exceptional people who never lie. They are human beings and corruption is all over the place as we get bombarded with it everyday in the news. And especially with corruption in the city councils, aka rezoned land, brown envelopes and so on and so on.
How can you still believe state of the organs don't lie? Amazing.

smccarrick wrote: »

If there is something they would rather you don't know- they will redact it, or refuse point blank to release it- they won't doctor it though. Opinions can be modified to suit a particular situation- hard data cannot.

This is exactly the point and true, except: 'hard data can not'.'Hard data' can as well.
It's not lying, but often even better: leaving out data.

It's what first came to my mind about the data base. They could manipulate indirectly with leaving out data, for example cheap sold houses, so people only see the big prices and buyers as well sellers are kept in a blurred reality that house prices rise again or are not falling that much at all.
But they didn't lie, no, never....

Treehouse72 wrote: »

One possible answer is that the government has quite simply run out of road. They have done everything they could to prop up the property market, but as anyone with any sense has known all along, that was doomed to failure. At some point even FF have to accept this. And of course there's no money left to prop it up any more so their hand is being forced somewhat.

So, when they are out of options and money like this, the only option is to try to finally face up to reality by having a price database like the rest of Europe, which they can also use (probably) to assess property tax.

Thanks for that input treehouse, but can’t really believe in it as a main reason either.
I’m pretty sure, if needed and wanted, the revenue had all financial details before as well. And if you want to hide something, pay in cash or whatever, you could do it now as well and it wouldn’t show up in the database neither. For me nothing changed, except making data public which are in my opinion highly confidential.
I wouldn’t want to know the world what I paid for my house.

markpb

tara73 wrote: »

I’m pretty sure, if needed and wanted, the revenue had all financial details before as well. And if you want to hide something, pay in cash or whatever, you could do it now as well and it wouldn’t show up in the database neither. For me nothing changed, except making data public which are in my opinion highly confidential. I wouldn’t want to know the world what I paid for my house.

I'm not 100% familiar with it but they have a database like this in the UK already. As far as I know, no-one can find out what you paid for your house (though I honestly can't imagine why I would care...), the local authorities publish statics based on the area and type of house. So estate agents know that 3 bed houses in Lancashire sold for £120,000, 5 beds in Cheshire were a million pounds, etc. It provides the useful data without compromising on privacy.

Revenue do already have this data (it's part of the stamp duty declaration) so I'm at a loss as to why the government need new legislation to give it to NPSRA or why the NPSRA even needs it - it's not like they won't have enough work (or had their legislation delayed enough already).

SkepticOne

I agree with the posters who say it is mainly about property tax. It would be very hard to establish the value legally without being able to point to transactions concerning nearby similar properties.

I've always felt the privacy thing was a bit of a red herring. Obviously if you want to know how much a particular house changed hands for, there's a privacy issue there. But they could have compiled an index localised at the level of county of house prices based on transaction prices. After all, the department of the environment publishes a quarterly house price index based on mortage drawdowns and no one objects.

The privacy card seems to have been a tactic mainly used by estate agents and mortgage providers in the boom time so that they could keep information to themselves. "Ah sure we'd love to have an index that we all contribute to but we can't because of privacy legislation".

spockety

markpb wrote: »

I'm not 100% familiar with it but they have a database like this in the UK already. As far as I know, no-one can find out what you paid for your house (though I honestly can't imagine why I would care...), the local authorities publish statics based on the area and type of house. So estate agents know that 3 bed houses in Lancashire sold for £120,000, 5 beds in Cheshire were a million pounds, etc. It provides the useful data without compromising on privacy.

Wrong.

In the UK you can find out the exact price paid for a particular property.

www.nethouseprices.com

This is the way it should be here too. If it's anything less it's an utter farce.

I expect it to be farcical.

makeorbrake

spockety wrote: »

Wrong.

In the UK you can find out the exact price paid for a particular property.

www.nethouseprices.com

This is the way it should be here too. If it's anything less it's an utter farce.

I expect it to be farcical.

Long overdue and a positive development. There was tv report some time back into some fiddle where false prices were recorded. If that can happen over there, then greater chance of it here. However, we have to start somewhere....

Red Actor

tara73 wrote: »

Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with this statement:rolleyes:
It sounds a bit like they are exceptional people who never lie. They are human beings and corruption is all over the place as we get bombarded with it everyday in the news. And especially with corruption in the city councils, aka rezoned land, brown envelopes and so on and so on.
How can you still believe state of the organs don't lie? Amazing.



This is exactly the point and true, except: 'hard data can not'.'Hard data' can as well.
It's not lying, but often even better: leaving out data.

It's what first came to my mind about the data base. They could manipulate indirectly with leaving out data, for example cheap sold houses, so people only see the big prices and buyers as well sellers are kept in a blurred reality that house prices rise again or are not falling that much at all.
But they didn't lie, no, never....




Thanks for that input treehouse, but can’t really believe in it as a main reason either.
I’m pretty sure, if needed and wanted, the revenue had all financial details before as well. And if you want to hide something, pay in cash or whatever, you could do it now as well and it wouldn’t show up in the database neither. For me nothing changed, except making data public which are in my opinion highly confidential.
I wouldn’t want to know the world what I paid for my house.

People can be suspicious of what will happen. It looks like it's all house and their address and price. Is it a "property price reigister" or a "house price regsiter"? Will they say how much Bull Mccabe paid for his field? Now that would be interesting...
http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/SJRS-888JMP15103711-en

Alan_P

smccarrick wrote: »

Just what is the concern about privacy?
I don't understand where you're coming from with this?
Its not as though anyone is going to know how the property was funded- i.e. with a 90% mortgage, or via an inheritance from wealthy parents......

Actually anyone who's willing to pay the land registry 2 euros 50 can see what mortgages exist on a property. That's public information, and always has been.

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/landdirect_ie/landdirect_ie_Fees/

Patrickof

Alan_P wrote: »

Actually anyone who's willing to pay the land registry 2 euros 50 can see what mortgages exist on a property. That's public information, and always has been.

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/landdirect_ie/landdirect_ie_Fees/

No they can't. The land registry only lists the ownership of properties and the extent of the properties, there's no price related info in it. They may have it, but its not publicly accessible.

Patrickof

And here's an exmaple of whats available in the states: (the data below relates to a house in Oakland California)

Date Event Price Appreciation Source
Jun 22, 2009 Sold (MLS) $669,000 -- Inactive EBRD #40397154
Jun 05, 2009 Sold (Public Records) $669,000 12.5%/yr Public Records
May 08, 2009 Delisted -- -- Inactive EBRD #40397154
Apr 09, 2009 Price Changed $699,000 -- Inactive EBRD #40397154
Feb 26, 2009 Listed $749,000 -- Inactive EBRD #40397154
Mar 01, 1999 Sold (Public Records) $200,000 3.2%/yr Public Records
Jan 25, 1995 Sold (Public Records) $176,000 -15.3%/yr Public Records
Mar 04, 1994 Sold (Public Records)
This home was foreclosedForeclosure is a process that transfers the right of home ownership from the homeowner to the bank or lender. A home goes into foreclosure when the owner stops paying his mortgage loan payments. and bank-ownedShort for "real estate owned," REOs are foreclosed homes owned by banks and lenders.. $364,673 -- Public Records
Aug 08, 1990 Sold (Public Records) $370,000 -- Public Records

Alan_P

Patrickof wrote: »

No they can't. The land registry only lists the ownership of properties and the extent of the properties, there's no price related info in it. They may have it, but its not publicly accessible.

I didn't say it had price info, I said it had mortgage info.
From the Land Registry FAQs :-

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Land_Registry_FAQs1.html#Q3

"Who is entitled to inspect documents?

Names Index, folio and map can be inspected by anyone on payment of the prescribed fee."

"4. What information is available on a folio?
There are three parts to a folio. ...... Part 3 contains details of all burdens registered against the property. These would include mortgages, rights of way, fishing and sporting rights etc."