Why is it impossible for some dog owners to walk their dogs on a leash?

lrushe

sparkling sea wrote: »

I cant find figures for Ireland but I took this from irishdogs.ie
Police figures show attacks by dogs to be a growing problem, and in March last year the Department for Environment, launched a consultation on the issue.

In 2008/09, 5,221 people had to be admitted to hospital as a result of such attacks, an increase of almost 100 per cent since 2002/03. Almost a third were children or teenagers.

It is believed thousands more people are attacked and either do not go to A&E or go there and are treated without being admitted.

Where were the dogs when they 'attacked', at home, in the garden, out loose unsupervised or out walking with supervision?
Of the children 'attacked' was there an adult supervising them and the dog?
Were the dogs being mistreated, teased, beaten or starved when the 'attack'?

What you've posted above is far too vague to have hold much water where off leash exercising is concerned.

lrushe

sparkling sea wrote: »

Labradors, GSD's and other high energy dogs work as Guide Dogs and are constantly on a lash. Most of these dogs maintain an excellent standard of health without being left to run free in public places. They also develop brillant emotional intelligence.

I've seen Guide Dog pups exercised off leash at the beach, they are leashed while in inappropriate public place ie. shops, high traffic areas etc. as most responsible owners would do and nobody here would disagree with.

Discodog

sparkling sea wrote: »

Labradors, GSD's and other high energy dogs work as Guide Dogs and are constantly on a lash.

human rights will always supercede an animals right in a civilized society.

Guide dogs are not always on a lead & definitely not on the lash !.

How about my human right to exercise my dog, off lead, providing it does not interfere with anyone else ?.

The problem is not about being on a lead it's about being in control.

Bearcat

i was attacked in a public area minding my business by a dog not on a leash in the company of his owner. Just went for me....alsation type dog I think...........needed surgery. Ok now......dog obviously put down to the horror of its owner. Someone told me that they just use over powerful anesthetic to put a dog down. He didnt deserve to die peacefully......rant over.....mind yourself in the presence of unleashed dogs and above all keep kids clear....

sparkling sea

iguana wrote: »

Do you know many guide dogs. I know four and they are all given daily off leash time. Guide dogs generally aren't "on" 24 hours a day, they have time off too and they usually really let loose when they can.

I know 1 and it is never left out in public off its lead. I know that the person who owns it was told specifically not to allow it off its lead in public places - although it was purely because it can interfer or disturb the conditioning and training the dog has received, so I would have to wonder about the 4 you know!

My sister was a puppy walker ( the pup lived with her for about 15 months) and she had to be home all day with the pup. She couldn't leave it outside for ages acccept when it needed the loo. It had to wear not only a lead but a coat and harness after the first couple of months. It was a fantastic dog and she was very sad when it eventually had to leave, but it was a very well trained, happy dog

LisaO

sparkling sea wrote: »

I know 1 and it is never left out in public off its lead. I know that the person who owns it was told specifically not to allow it off its lead in public places - although it was purely because it can interfer or disturb the conditioning and training the dog has received, so I would have to wonder about the 4 you know!

My sister was a puppy walker ( the pup lived with her for about 15 months) and she had to be home all day with the pup. She couldn't leave it outside for ages acccept when it needed the loo. It had to wear not only a lead but a coat and harness after the first couple of months. It was a fantastic dog and she was very sad when it eventually had to leave, but it was a very well trained, happy dog

I think there may be a difference between guide dogs in training & fully fledged, "passed the test" guide dogs? When I lived in UK I often met a guide dog & his owner in our local park at lunchtimes. The guy used to sit & eat his lunch while the dog had a good chase around off-lead. The guy would put a bell on his collar before he let him off, so that he knew where the dog was & what he was up to

I can understand how being allowed off-lead in public places could be detrimental to the intensive training these dogs undergo though.

caseyann

Many local authorities have introduced bye-laws to indicate areas where dogs must be kept on a leash or even prohibited. Your local authority will be able to inform you of the bye-laws that apply in your area. Breaches of these bye-laws relating to dogs in your area can result in fines on summary conviction.

he Control of Dogs Regulations 1998 (S.I. No. 442 of 1998) impose additional rules in relation to the following breeds (and strains/cross-breeds) of dog in Ireland:

American Pit Bull Terrier
English Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Dobermann Pinscher
German Shepherd (Alsatian)
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa
Bandog

The rules state that:

These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must be kept on a short strong lead by a person over 16 years who is capable of controlling them
These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must be muzzled whenever they are in a public place
These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must wear a collar bearing the name and address of their owner at all times.

Those are some of the laws, your local authority can inform you of the lead laws in your area.
Beside us we had people with a pit bull and they were only minding it and let it wander the road with kids around no muzzle.:mad:

I really dont like the dogs off leads especially when they approach you aggressively,had it happen to me and the owner acted like it was not a big deal when both his dogs surrounded me and my dog.Quite intimidating and more or less set me back months with my dog.
If someone is walking a dog without a lead they should not assume that it is ok for their dog to approach other people with dogs.

Discodog

Bearcat wrote: »

He didnt deserve to die peacefully......

He didn't deserve to die at all. He did what his owner has taught him to do either by design or neglect. Whilst we keep killing the dogs we leave the owners to buy another dog & make the same mistakes.

I am assuming that you sued the owner for many thousands of euro.

iguana

LisaO wrote: »

I think there may be a difference between guide dogs in training & fully fledged, "passed the test" guide dogs? When I lived in UK I often met a guide dog & his owner in our local park at lunchtimes. The guy used to sit & eat his lunch while the dog had a good chase around off-lead. The guy would put a bell on his collar before he let him off, so that he knew where the dog was & what he was up to

Exactly, trained dogs know the difference between when they are working and when they are off. I've had a couple of the ones I know off in the park playing with my dogs and the pet dogs of the family of the person who's guide it is. It's essential that a dog doing that job gets the chance to cut loose, otherwise they can become very stressed. It also helps them come to terms with being retired (which is a very emotionally tough time for a guide dog) because they don't have to learn how to stop working.

DBCyc

caseyann wrote: »

Beside us we had people with a pit bull and they were only minding it and let it wander the road with kids around no muzzle.:mad:

Holy crap - how many of the children were eaten :rolleyes:

Whispered

caseyann wrote: »

If someone is walking a dog without a lead they should not assume that it is ok for their dog to approach other people with dogs.

Of course not. As far as I can read, every poster here has said that allowing your dog to annoy other people or dogs is not acceptable. Unfortunately there are owners out there who don't care and allow their dogs run riot.

caseyann

DBCyc wrote: »

Holy crap - how many of the children were eaten :rolleyes:

Its not the point,its against the law,they dont own that animal for a starers so they dont know the animal, even if they did the law states they are high risk.
I rang the gardaí and so did most of the neighbours.
We dont let our dogs roam the streets and neither should they.
So roll your eyes at yourself.;)

DBCyc

caseyann wrote: »

Its not the point,its against the law,they dont own that animal for a starers so they dont know the animal, even if they did the law states they are high risk.
I rang the gardaí and so did most of the neighbours.
We dont let our dogs roam the streets and neither should they.
So roll your eyes at yourself.;)

Look at my earlier posts, I don't agree with dogs roaming the streets.

This thread is about people's opinions regarding dogs on/off the lead and the associated etiquette of walking your dog without bothering people whether its on or off the lead etc. It also covered dogs who were left to roam the streets by their owners and the vast majority of posters do not agree with this,

I don't know why you had to start on about the restricted breeds list - the majority of people on here are also aware of this list. Then you start posting about a pit bull being loose amongst children. This is just a pointless, hysterical statement that contributes nothing to this debate.

Son Of A Vidic

[QUOTE=Bearcat;67803072 Someone told me that they just use over powerful anesthetic to put a dog down. He didnt deserve to die peacefully......rant over.....mind yourself in the presence of unleashed dogs and above all keep kids clear....[/QUOTE]

That's a bit harsh, I'd always blame the owner - NO dog should be unleashed in a public area. The dog didn't ask to be unleashed, it was the owners decision to do so. You suffered as a result, unfortunately people always tend to blame the dog in this situation. The owner really should be asking themselves, how well trained was their dog? and how well did they know their dog? Hopefully the owner will learn from what happened to you and have a properply controlled/trained dog in future.

Whispered

caseyann wrote: »

...... the law states they are high risk.
.

Here is my problem, any unknown dog could be high risk and any other breed is as likely to be high risk but people would use less cre around cuter breeds like a lab etc.

caseyann wrote: »

We dont let our dogs roam the streets and neither should they.

agreed, regardless of breed, dogs should not be allowed roam the street. Although, unless the dog was returned to its owner, it has likely been pts being a RB and all. Which is a pity if he was doing no harm. It was the owners fault the dog was out and once again, the dog would have suffered for it.

Redneck Reject

I just acquired a 15 month old Lab who was never socialized with other dogs or people for that matter.She never comes off the lead,naturally because she has a bit of fear aggression we are working through.I walk her around close to my house,and each day go out a little bit further to introduce her to the sights and sounds of everyday life in a city.
In a city environment I do think dog owners should always have their dogs on leads for safety reasons of both people and the dogs.Even the best trained dog is not a 100% controlled dog,anyone tries to tell me different doesn't know their dog.Now I've read a few posts on here people stating they have the right to walk their dogs off leads,who bestowed that right to you at the expensive and safety of others?
As a responsible dog owner,it's your responsibility to ensure the safety and control of the dog.There are far more scenarios and reasons to keep a dog on a lead,than there are letting them off.

Graces7

We have relocated and were at a farmers market at the weekend; man there with a doberman puppy... Soft as they come and he was walking it around all day. When we asked; do they not have to be muzzled? "What for? What could a puppy do?"

As we said, take care if there are dog wardens about. The law may be an ass, but it has teeth

andreac

Graces7 wrote: »

We have relocated and were at a farmers market at the weekend; man there with a doberman puppy... Soft as they come and he was walking it around all day. When we asked; do they not have to be muzzled? "What for? What could a puppy do?"

As we said, take care if there are dog wardens about. The law may be an ass, but it has teeth

How old was this puppy? Do you honestly expect a young pup to be muzzled at a young age?

Graces7

andreac wrote: »

How old was this puppy? Do you honestly expect a young pup to be muzzled at a young age?

It would be lovely if you would stop jumping on me like this when you have misread my post, andreac! It really would be nice . This is not the first time

Please read what I wrote?

Not what you think I wrote. :rolleyes:

Thank you.

In this case I simply asked as I was curious.

Shane Fitz

andreac wrote: »

How old was this puppy? Do you honestly expect a young pup to be muzzled at a young age?

Am i right in thinking that a pup doesn't have to be muzzled untill they are 6mnths old, regardless if RB or not?

Whispered

In fairness, I would consider a curious question "do they have to be muzzled"

- you asked - "do they not have to be muzzled"

- the not making it a rethorical question. If you asked me that question, I would assume you were telling me that they should be muzzled in a more passive agressive way than saying "your dog should be muzzled". I would consider someone using phrasing like that to be trying to make a point. There is a definate accusation in the phrase.

Perhaps a difference in phraseology. Although, assuming you knew the dog should have been muzzled, then maybe you were actually asking rethorically? Hard one to call with you.

In fact when I read your post I thought it very rude to tell someone to muzzle their dog. Obviously that's not what you had written, but it's how I initially read it and possibly how the dog owner heard it.

lrushe

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Am i right in thinking that a pup doesn't have to be muzzled untill they are 6mnths old, regardless if RB or not?

Unfortunately not, an RB dog has to be muzzled according to the law from day one

andreac

Graces7 wrote: »

It would be lovely if you would stop jumping on me like this when you have misread my post, andreac! It really would be nice . This is not the first time

Please read what I wrote?

Not what you think I wrote. :rolleyes:

Thank you.

In this case I simply asked as I was curious.

You asked the owner if his puppy should be muzzled? Yes its a RB, but you knew yourself it was a puppy, just wondering why you would question someone about putting a muzzle on a puppy, thats all.

lrushe

Redneck Reject wrote: »

I just acquired a 15 month old Lab who was never socialized with other dogs or people for that matter.She never comes off the lead,naturally because she has a bit of fear aggression we are working through.I walk her around close to my house,and each day go out a little bit further to introduce her to the sights and sounds of everyday life in a city.
In a city environment I do think dog owners should always have their dogs on leads for safety reasons of both people and the dogs.Even the best trained dog is not a 100% controlled dog,anyone tries to tell me different doesn't know their dog.Now I've read a few posts on here people stating they have the right to walk their dogs off leads,who bestowed that right to you at the expensive and safety of others?
As a responsible dog owner,it's your responsibility to ensure the safety and control of the dog.There are far more scenarios and reasons to keep a dog on a lead,than there are letting them off.

Firstly nobody is advocating letting an unsocialised dog such as yours off leash we are talking about dogs which have been properly trained and socialised.
Secondly if what you mean by 'city environment' is the likes of streets, estates, high traffic areas, shops etc. again I think most people here would also agree with you, it would be irresponsible to have dogs off leash here. Where I would let my dog off leash is in open fields, parks / beaches where off leash dogs are allowed, lakes, mountain walkways etc.
As to who bestowed the right to dog owners to walk their dogs off leash, well the Irish government of course (once the dog is under control), if we didn't have that right it would be illegal.
You may think that there are more reasons for having a dog on leash but once you have the joy of a well trained, well mannered & trustworthy dog those reasons become moot.

seamus

lrushe wrote: »

Secondly if what you mean by 'city environment' is the likes of streets, estates, high traffic areas, shops etc. again I think most people here would also agree with you, it would be irresponsible to have dogs off leash here.

You wouldn't believe the amount of people in the city centre who have their dogs off the lead while walking. Aungier street is particularly bad, I've encountered a number of people crossing the road between the moving traffic, with the dog following them closely off-lead behind. Unbelieveable stuff.

iguana

seamus wrote: »

You wouldn't believe the amount of people in the city centre who have their dogs off the lead while walking. Aungier street is particularly bad, I've encountered a number of people crossing the road between the moving traffic, with the dog following them closely off-lead behind. Unbelieveable stuff.

And some dogs are unbelievably trained and never need a lead. My parent's border collie hasn't been on a lead since a few weeks after they got him. They don't work or show him but he's trained to that standard. He walks exactly to heel, no more than a few inches from your foot unless you tell him he can run with a hand signal. He's usually walked along the Shannon river and there are some roads/busy paths by the university campus, when he comes toward those he lies down and waits until you reach him, then follows at heel once you give him the signal.

Dogs are meant to be under control in that type of place, not on a lead. Rosco is under better control off-lead than an awful lot of dogs on-lead. I'd have no qualms about his behaviour if he was walked through any busy city off or on-lead and only wouldn't do it because he'd hate it. I saw a number of people in London walk their dogs in central areas off-lead and the dogs were well behaved and caused no problems. They would go in and out of shops/bars/restaurants and it wasn't a problem as the dogs were well trained and used to it.

Graces7

andreac wrote: »

You asked the owner if his puppy should be muzzled? Yes its a RB, but you knew yourself it was a puppy, just wondering why you would question someone about putting a muzzle on a puppy, thats all.

:rolleyes:

I asked as I did not know; so I could learn.

Is that OK with you?

As i did so I was petting the wee dog, as were many others. I wondered at what age a RB dog was to wear a muzzle in law.. would hate to see that wee one impounded or worse.

The man took no offence and neither should anyone else.. and as someone here has no said, yes , it is from day one.

which makes sense; to get the dog used to a muzzle in public as it will have to wear one all its life long. Less stress if that is from the start.

The man appreciated the quiet advice to take care re dog wardens; he was at the market all day, getting the dog used to people wonderfully.. but al it would have taken was one phone call from one person. You and I know that.

And ignorance of the law is no defence in cases like this.. The man knew the stock response to him namig the breed of the dog, and we laughed about it together.

There are a couple of posters here who respond so aggressively to some topics that it makes reasonable discussion and learning very difficult.

Most of us here, myself incuded, love dogs, but that does not mean that we are going to agree with everything others say.

Maybe count to ten and wait for other responses before replying?

Thank you!

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

You're very fond of the sarcastic roll eyes smilie aren't you. You complain about other people making it difficult to have a conversation and yet most of your posts are passive agressive, rude, sarcastic and you are avoiding answering questions you don't have a proper answer to. (ie you were asked twice how you exercise your collie and you told me I was asking in the wrong place, and just didn't acknowledge the second time someone asked)

Telling someone to "count to ten" before replying is very unnecessarily rude and you are the only poster here in this thread who feels it necessary to respond like this. Even other people who are agreeing with you, are not responding like that. I hope you realise that even if you did have a good point, most people will not see beyond the sarcasm.

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

open fields, parks / beaches where off leash dogs are allowed, lakes, mountain walkways etc.

Pretty sure dogs have to stay on the lead at the beach, in my local park there are bylaws stating dogs must be kept on a lead. On the coillte website there is a mention of sheep in fields beside forestry land. Who owns these fields you walk in? The farmer who may be moving stock into it. All the trouble with dogs that I have had as a horserider have been those who are not on the lead. If a dog sees an animal it may like to chase training can go out the window if the dog has not been properly socialised to the animal it wants to get at.

Discodog

Most people are not even aware of the RB legislation. It would be very unusual for someone to report & even more unusual for the warden to react in my neck of the woods.

There is no way that I would put a muzzle on a Dobie. I would far rather go to Court & then run a series of appeals to show how ludicrous the law is. I was chatting to a nice couple with a pair of un-muzzled GSD's. We were chatting about the stupidity of the RB legislation & they said that they kept muzzles just in case but had in 3 years had never had to fit them.

We need people to respect dogs & not fear them.

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

Pretty sure dogs have to stay on the lead at the beach, in my local park there are bylaws stating dogs must be kept on a lead. On the coillte website there is a mention of sheep in fields beside forestry land. Who owns these fields you walk in? The farmer who may be moving stock into it. All the trouble with dogs that I have had as a horserider have been those who are not on the lead. If a dog sees an animal it may like to chase training can go out the window if the dog has not been properly socialised to the animal it wants to get at.

I've already said my dogs are only allowed off leash in parks and beaches where it is permitted, they do exist.
The council own the fields I walk in.
I recognise that not all dog owners are respectful of others (and vice versa) hence why I think both you and your dog should have to pass a course or something similiar before you are allowed to let you dog off leash. I would be v.happy to do this with all 3 of my dogs and am confident they would pass with flying colours.
One of my dogs does agility, the training involves her having to work away from me at distance, there's no way she could do that traing on leash.
You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???
That's the thing, most responsible dog owners are happy to meet in the middle but a portion of the public want their cake and eat and I think their "me, me me" attitude is v.selfish.

Shenshen

lrushe wrote: »

You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???
That's the thing, most responsible dog owners are happy to meet in the middle but a portion of the public want their cake and eat and I think their "me, me me" attitude is v.selfish.

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

I am scared of big dogs, and had to face the following yesterday : I had finished work, and was walking through the business park towards the bus stop, when a massive retreiver came towards me, down the middle of the road.
Now, there's a 25km limit on the roads in the business park, but you're allowed to guess how many people stick with that.
The dog then ran around on the road for a bit, before coming straight for me. I had nowhere to go really and just stood there petrified until he wandered. Eventually his owner came into sight, strolling along chatting with a friend (I guess it was the owner, since she was carrying a leash, she was walking down the other side of the road from me). When she had gone past, I saw the dog again a little further on taking a huge dump, pretty much the middle of the pavement, before running off to play on the roundabout for a bit, forcing a car to an emergency stop.
I was thinking of pointing it out to the supposed owner, but she was a good bit off already and utterly oblivious to what the dog was doing, and I didn't want to appear like the crazy lady dashing through business parks to yell at dog owners. Also, I might have ended up missing my bus.

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

Whispered

Shenshen wrote: »

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

If the horse got it into it's head to go somewhere, for whatever reason, spooked etc. Would you be physically able to restrain it?

Shenshen wrote: »

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

Totally not acceptable for the "owner" to allow her dog behave like that. Quite unbelieveable actually that someone would be so lax. However, I think you are misunderstanding slightly, there is not one single person here who thinks this type of behaviour is acceptable, in fact most have said, on more than one occasion, that having your dog off lead is only acceptable if it's in a suitable area (obviously not an industrial estate) and under control (which is obviously not the case in your situation).
Have you ever seen this lady before? How was the friend reacting?

I believe the "me,me,me" which was referred to was aimed at the people who believe that there should be no dogs, off lead, ever, no matter how well trained or how responsible the owner is etc.

ISDW

Shenshen wrote: »

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

I am scared of big dogs, and had to face the following yesterday : I had finished work, and was walking through the business park towards the bus stop, when a massive retreiver came towards me, down the middle of the road.
Now, there's a 25km limit on the roads in the business park, but you're allowed to guess how many people stick with that.
The dog then ran around on the road for a bit, before coming straight for me. I had nowhere to go really and just stood there petrified until he wandered. Eventually his owner came into sight, strolling along chatting with a friend (I guess it was the owner, since she was carrying a leash, she was walking down the other side of the road from me). When she had gone past, I saw the dog again a little further on taking a huge dump, pretty much the middle of the pavement, before running off to play on the roundabout for a bit, forcing a car to an emergency stop.
I was thinking of pointing it out to the supposed owner, but she was a good bit off already and utterly oblivious to what the dog was doing, and I didn't want to appear like the crazy lady dashing through business parks to yell at dog owners. Also, I might have ended up missing my bus.

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

But nobody who has been advocating letting their dogs exercise off lead in this thread would find that situation acceptable. That is totally irresponsible dog ownership, something that we are opposed to (sorry for speaking for everyone:D) Can you not see the difference between letting your dog off lead in a safe area, such as a park or beach, and letting them free somewhere they shouldn't be?

I find it interesting though that you state so matter of factly about the car drivers breaking the law all the time. Why is that accepted?

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

hence why I think both you and your dog should have to pass a course or something similiar before you are allowed to let you dog off leash.

You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???

Training of both owner/dog needs to be kept up and maintained so a one off course may not do it. People only really listen when it hits their wallets.

The free excerise the mare I used to ride got was in the field every day, I would not use a livery yard that had no turn out.

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

Whispered

doctor evil wrote: »

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

If a spooked horse decided to run, can you physically restrain it? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

As for asking a poster if they thank everyone they pass, can't you see how you are tarring everyone with one brush? I have met, on a few occasions, people riding on the road with no high viz anything (in fact one hadn't even a saddle), 3 abreast on a winding road, no pulling in to allow a car to pass, no acknowledgement when you do pass etc, this is very dangerous on country roads. Just like I have met people like you who do everything beautifully and in a friendly way.

Just like dog owners, you get bad horseriders. But if people were to tar you all due to the irresponsible few, as is happening here, you would, justifiably feel as if you were being unfairly targeted.

Dogs causing a problem is not acceptable, responsible owners exercise their dogs offlead and go out of their way to avoid causing problems. Just as responsible riders go out of their way to cause no problems.

iguana

doctor evil wrote: »

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

Hold on. I'm significantly stronger than both of my dogs, even put together, even when they both had four legs. Even with reins you could not be stronger than an adult horse. I have zero problem with responsible riders riding their horses in public. But lets be realistic, a horse with a rider has the potential to do every bit as much damage as an off lead dog if the horse is badly spooked or the rider is careless.

As for your condescending last paragraph. Yes my dogs' insurance includes third party liability. They wear lights if they are out in dark or twilight. Of course I talk to everyone I meet while walking my dogs. I also take the time to let children play with my dogs, especially those who are nervous around them (3-legged spaniels are great starter dogs for the nervous to pet). I also pick up all of my dog's crap, do you do the same for your horses? I know that herbivore poo isn't as dangerous as omnivores but it's still gross.

Beyond that I've stopped crimes while walking my dogs. I've stopped burglars on 3 occasions, stopped motor bike riders going through a park 4 times (that's not including the many, many more times I've called the police for both crimes), stopped dog fighters, reported a man abusing his dog, stopped teens letting fireworks off at people and stopped an attack on people more than once. Have you?

(I lived in a crappy part of London with my dogs for several years. But it has a great dog walking community and we basically functioned as neighbourhood watch in our local parks. Not a week seemed to go by when at least one or a group of us didn't stop some crime.)

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

Training of both owner/dog needs to be kept up and maintained so a one off course may not do it. People only really listen when it hits their wallets.

The free excerise the mare I used to ride got was in the field every day, I would not use a livery yard that had no turn out.

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

The course idea is a rough suggestion if it became mandatory it would need to moulded to meet effectiveness. Your right people do only listen to their wallet so fining those who haven't done a course and aren't certified to let their dogs off leash would be better than just a blanket ban on all dog owners, it's not fair to punish the majority for the actions of a few.
I've ridden horses for years so know you can hold onto the reins all you want but if a horse bolts you are pretty much on for the ride, reins are of v.little immediate use on panicked horse, they won't listen until they've calmed.
Yes my dogs are all insured.
As I am a girl walking on my own I don't walk in the dark or at dusk I only walk in broad daylight away from traffic so I don't know why I would need hi viz reflectors??
I don't know what me acknowledging and thanking everyone I come across on my walk has to do with anything, my dogs are under control and that's all that matters.

Shenshen

Whispered wrote: »

If the horse got it into it's head to go somewhere, for whatever reason, spooked etc. Would you be physically able to restrain it?

Totally not acceptable for the "owner" to allow her dog behave like that. Quite unbelieveable actually that someone would be so lax. However, I think you are misunderstanding slightly, there is not one single person here who thinks this type of behaviour is acceptable, in fact most have said, on more than one occasion, that having your dog off lead is only acceptable if it's in a suitable area (obviously not an industrial estate) and under control (which is obviously not the case in your situation).
Have you ever seen this lady before? How was the friend reacting?

I believe the "me,me,me" which was referred to was aimed at the people who believe that there should be no dogs, off lead, ever, no matter how well trained or how responsible the owner is etc.

Well, considering it's your own life in danger if you can't control a spooked horse, I suppose it must be possible in most cases for most riders. As I don't ride myself, I can't really make a qualified statement.

I've no problem with people letting dogs off lead in specially designated areas. I would simply give those areas a wide berth, and everybody would be happy.
However, I do not believe that dogs ought to be allowed off the lead in any areas not marked for the purpose.

I'm pretty certain that that dog wasn't under anybody's control, but how would I be able to tell? If there were a law about having to have the dog on a leash in a place like the industrial estate, I would have a case against an owner letting the dog run around in the middle of the road. As it is, she would most probably protest that of course the dog was under control, it would have come to her when called because it always does...
I've been there before with calling the gardai about dogs running around without an owner in sight. As long as the owner dutifully replies "But of course he was under my control at all times", how is anybody going to be able to prove any different until the next kid gets mauled?

No, I had never seen the lady before, but then this is a big business park, there are hundreds of people working here.
The friend? What would she have been reacting to? She was totally absorbed in the conversation with the (assumed) owner.

doctor evil

iguana wrote: »

know that herbivore poo isn't as dangerous as omnivores but it's still gross.

Horse poo is the equivilent of mulched grass, it gets washed away in the rain if somebody doesn't take it for their horses. Dog poo is in an entirely different category.

doctor evil

Whispered wrote: »

If a spooked horse decided to run, can you physically restrain it? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

In a true bolting horse no, a bolting horse is not one that takes the pee and tanks nor is it one has too much energy. A proper bolt is one where a horse goes in a blind panic with no sense of self preservation. Fortunately I have never been on one.

If a rider is on the ball and horse has had proper introduction/exposure/schooling then you can spot a spook before it starts or quickly curtail it. This is made a lot more difficult with other eejit road users (I'm not taring everyone, just picking on the eejit ones;)) With regards to acknowledging other I am very wary of anyone whether they are walking/driving/cycling/riding etc who go about listening to their ipod with their head in their clouds.

Just like dog owners, you get bad horseriders. But if people were to tar you all due to the irresponsible few, as is happening here, you would, justifiably feel as if you were being unfairly targeted.

The unpopular fact is that it is easier to police a blanket ban.

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

I've ridden horses for years so know you can hold onto the reins all you want but if a horse bolts you are pretty much on for the ride, reins are of v.little immediate use on panicked horse, they won't listen until they've calmed.

For a proper bolt there is little that can be done after the obvious like the emergency stop has been tried. There is different opinions about what to do in such a situation, it would depend on setting. A true bolter has no business being ridden/driven and is nothing but a liability.

In your previous post (the one I responded to) I got the impression that you don't ride at all as it implied that horses are given free reign aka no bridle/no bit when in the mountains/beach etc. I know you used it as an example. This idea would be a pretty absurd notion. I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

iguana

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, considering it's your own life in danger if you can't control a spooked horse, I suppose it must be possible in most cases for most riders. As I don't ride myself, I can't really make a qualified statement.

If the horse is truly spooked the rider will not be able to get it physically back under control. And it's not just the rider and horse who are in danger, people get trampled by horses, horses near or on roads run into traffic and can cause (sometimes very serious) road traffic accidents. The thing is that these incidences are rare, about as rare as serious dog attacks, and as such the positives still outweigh the negatives. Just about everything in life represents some danger, look how dangerous crossing the road is, but we don't ban cars.

And also pretty much everything we do can cause discomfort to someone else. Seeing people with babies and young children causes me actual physical pain (I had a miscarriage two years ago, today, and after that my husband became too ill for us to try again). I sometimes turn and run when I unexpectedly run into children, I really can't bear it. I have irrational phobias (flying) and it's nothing compared to constantly being faced with babies after you've lost one. But we can't all alter the world to suit us. It doesn't work like that. People will take their kids to the park, and to shops and on buses, it's only right and proper. My feelings don't trump that. And I will walk my dogs in the park and by the river, I'm sorry if that scares you, but those feelings are yours, you have to deal with them. Nobody stops you from being comfortable around dogs but yourself and your discomfort doesn't trump my rights.

doctor evil wrote:

Horse poo is the equivilent of mulched grass, it gets washed away in the rain if somebody doesn't take it for their horses. Dog poo is in an entirely different category.

No, horse crap isn't just mulched grass. It contains high levels of phosphates and nitrates which can contaminate the water table. Depending on what the horse is fed the horse crap can have a PH level of around 10 which is alkaline enough to burn the soil it's left on. And worst of all, horse poo is a serious breeding ground for many insects most especially flies, (I'm sure we've all stepped near a horse or cow pat and seen the swarm of flies move off it) and other horse parasites, who are instrumental in the spreading of diseases to both humans and livestock. They also move the chemicals found in horse crap about the place.

You don't pick up your horse crap because it would ruin your ride. It's inconsiderate and it's dirty. It's unhygienic material, just because it is less toxic than carnivore/omnivore crap doesn't make it a lovely benign present you bestow upon the landscape.

Environmental/Health Impact Reduction by Composting Horse Manure, Mauritius wrote:

Raw horse manure poses a direct threat to the environment because of the presence of excessive nutrients, larvae, odours, strong leachate generation and risks of direct contamination of ground water. Around 2000 to 3000 tons of horse manure are collected by the Les Mariannes Agricultural and Mechanical Co-operatives on an annual basis. Since 1985, the NGO collects horse manure and bedding materials from around 329 horses every week from Champ de Mars and Domaine Les Pailles. The horse manure is disposed at the Roche Bois dumping site. Part of it is used by the NGO as fertiliser for growing vegetables. It is to be noted that in the vicinity of the Roche-Bois station, there are 2 localities, Roche-bois and Tombeau Bay, as well as the Terre-rouge estuary and the bird sanctuary (a potential Ramsar site)

Because of improper disposal of horse manure, both land degradation and contamination of waterbodies leading to an unhealthy environment can occur. Unfortunately, because of lack of data on the subject, one cannot measure the environmental and health impact caused these last 16 years by unsafe disposal of horse manure in Mauritius. It is known however that horse manure is very high in salts, contains parasite larvae and eggs and provides as well an excellent fly breeding environment. It contains nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, which contribute to pollution of water bodies. It is also a threat to human and livestock health as it may contain bacteria and disease causing micro-organisms. Excessive manure application rates on vegetable crops can result in high nitrate levels in shallow ground water. Nitrate levels above 10 milligrams per litre is unsafe for human consumption.

http://waterwiki.net/index.php/Environmental/Health_Impact_Reduction_by_Composting_Horse_Manure,_Mauritius

And there is a pretty in depth pamphlet here. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:TDKz26l94eAJ:www.patriotrcd.org/NRCShorsepamphlet2002.pdf+horse+poo+contamination&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgRp57F3E_vNoMQw3JxoIE-CZkYZ5Ttlj5wD07OVnKSn21IpXJpInVO7GQ4dY5WxXj-74B4IXsfOA7dAkQU075QFnQJiNSs9qgRjeyX8tQtsXBeviaEadk9J6G4u_1ibiCVHUKk&sig=AHIEtbS-LwjkkC6Bu0eOIB0vH16IBt9UEg

Whispered

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that that dog wasn't under anybody's control, but how would I be able to tell? .

~Obviously the dog in question was not under control. The fact the car had to make an emergency stop proved that.

As I said earlier, a public place is a public place. If a dog is not causing a problem then it's nobodys business to say that it shouldn't be there, unless it is a specificially designated "dogs on leash only" area. Of which there are many.

There should be somthing you could do in that situation and if the laws we already have, and which most of us stick to, were enforced, you wouldn't have had that problem.

We need to enforce the rules we have before we make others up.

Shenshen wrote: »

how is anybody going to be able to prove any different until the next kid gets mauled?
.

"the next kid" As far as I am aware we were not talking about kids being "mauled" Do you really need to go down that route? The thread is about dogs being a pain in the ass. Not dangerous dogs.

doctor evil wrote: »

If a rider is on the ball and horse has had proper introduction/exposure/schooling then you can spot a spook before it starts or quickly curtail it.

If an owner is on the ball then same goes.

You're absolutely right that a blanket ban would be easier to enforce. But that still doesn't make it fair.

I don't understand horses, they make me nervous and I don't like to be around them. I've had physical contact with maybe 5 horses in my life and was kicked by 2 of them.

Meeting them on the road - I've had one horse run headlong at my car (met him coming around the corner) all I could do was brake and hope the horse stopped - of course it did but it was scary non the less. And dangerous of course. a car coming up behind him made him begin to run, and me coming around the corner to face him had the same effect. The rider could do nothing.

Like I said above - riding 3 abreast, riding at dusk with no visi strips etc.

I still wouldn't support a blanket ban on having horses on a public road because I have also seen riders doing everything perfectly. Of course you remember the bad more easily. As I'm sure you do with offlead dogs.

doctor evil wrote: »

I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

You can apply that to lot of riders too, no?

bullylover

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

For a proper bolt there is little that can be done after the obvious like the emergency stop has been tried. There is different opinions about what to do in such a situation, it would depend on setting. A true bolter has no business being ridden/driven and is nothing but a liability.

In your previous post (the one I responded to) I got the impression that you don't ride at all as it implied that horses are given free reign aka no bridle/no bit when in the mountains/beach etc. I know you used it as an example. This idea would be a pretty absurd notion. I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

I don't want to keep harping on about horses V dogs but I'm just trying to put it in context that you can relate to. As you say a 'green' horse who is likely to bolt has no business being hacked out just as an unsocialised, untrained dog has no business being off leash. I'm sure you have a nice settled, bomb proof mare that you ride out on and trust, well that's what I have in my dogs.
I never said a horse should be ridden out with no bridle, what I meant was if I was a person who was terrified of horses I might demand a lead rope be attached to their bridle and another person lead the horse and rider while on beaches, roads or mountain trails. I'm sure you would find that unfair and unecessary for you or your horse as I find it unfair and unecessary for my dogs to be constantly on a leash.

lrushe wrote: »

what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous

ISDW

bullylover wrote: »

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

There is no such thing as a dangerous dog list, could people please stop perpetuating this myth. There is a restricted breed list, but nowhere on there does it call any of the dogs dangerous.

andreac

bullylover wrote: »

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

Please get your facts right. Its not the "Dangerous Dogs List":mad: its the "Restricted Breeds list", Very, very different!

Shenshen

Whispered wrote: »

~Obviously the dog in question was not under control. The fact the car had to make an emergency stop proved that.

As I said earlier, a public place is a public place. If a dog is not causing a problem then it's nobodys business to say that it shouldn't be there, unless it is a specificially designated "dogs on leash only" area. Of which there are many.

There should be somthing you could do in that situation and if the laws we already have, and which most of us stick to were enforced, you wouldn't have had that problem.

In my experience, a dog is not causing problems right up to the point when it starts causing problems.

"Under control" is an extremely fuzzy term, and legally nigh impossible to prove, unless something serious actually did happen.

"the next kid" As far as I am aware we were not talking about kids being "mauled" Do you really need to go down that route? The thread is about dogs being a pain in the ass. Not dangerous dogs.

Ok, replace "mauled" with "attacked", then.

As I said, when I was attacked as a child, I was told by the owner that "the dog just wants to play" while it had already sunk its teeth into me and drawn blood, followed by a lengthy "he never ever attacked anyone before, it must have been the child running that set him off, I really don't understand it"

As I said, I'm fine with people having dogs off the leash in parks and the like, it allows me to stay clear of them. I've only ever been to a park once for this reason since coming to Ireland, and I won't set foot in one again.
But if I'm waiting at a bus stop, with no shops to run into anywhere in the vicinity, I am not happy with any dog running around without a leash on it.

Discodog

My definition of being under control is that I would not allow my dogs to run up to anyone that I didn't know. Everyone has the right not to be approached by a dog. It drives me nuts when I meet a dog walker & out of respect put mine on the lead only to have someone's dog leaping all over mine. It is different if I know the dog & owner.

I apply this rule even more with people who are walking without dogs as they have every right to enjoy a walk without being hassled. Having lived in the UK people here seem much more nervous of dogs. I suspect that part of this is down to the number of strays & out of control dogs.

I am about to walk mine. I will be joined by two dogs that are owned by a neighbour, whether I like it or not. The neighbour will not notice that their dogs are missing or care what they are doing.

As dog lovers surely we want as many people to like, or at least not fear dogs. Dogs in Ireland need all the friends that they can get. So it is up to us to show dogs in a good light & not as a menace. We have to make the effort not the people who do not own dogs.