Why is it impossible for some dog owners to walk their dogs on a leash?

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

Pretty sure dogs have to stay on the lead at the beach, in my local park there are bylaws stating dogs must be kept on a lead. On the coillte website there is a mention of sheep in fields beside forestry land. Who owns these fields you walk in? The farmer who may be moving stock into it. All the trouble with dogs that I have had as a horserider have been those who are not on the lead. If a dog sees an animal it may like to chase training can go out the window if the dog has not been properly socialised to the animal it wants to get at.

I've already said my dogs are only allowed off leash in parks and beaches where it is permitted, they do exist.
The council own the fields I walk in.
I recognise that not all dog owners are respectful of others (and vice versa) hence why I think both you and your dog should have to pass a course or something similiar before you are allowed to let you dog off leash. I would be v.happy to do this with all 3 of my dogs and am confident they would pass with flying colours.
One of my dogs does agility, the training involves her having to work away from me at distance, there's no way she could do that traing on leash.
You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???
That's the thing, most responsible dog owners are happy to meet in the middle but a portion of the public want their cake and eat and I think their "me, me me" attitude is v.selfish.

Shenshen

lrushe wrote: »

You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???
That's the thing, most responsible dog owners are happy to meet in the middle but a portion of the public want their cake and eat and I think their "me, me me" attitude is v.selfish.

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

I am scared of big dogs, and had to face the following yesterday : I had finished work, and was walking through the business park towards the bus stop, when a massive retreiver came towards me, down the middle of the road.
Now, there's a 25km limit on the roads in the business park, but you're allowed to guess how many people stick with that.
The dog then ran around on the road for a bit, before coming straight for me. I had nowhere to go really and just stood there petrified until he wandered. Eventually his owner came into sight, strolling along chatting with a friend (I guess it was the owner, since she was carrying a leash, she was walking down the other side of the road from me). When she had gone past, I saw the dog again a little further on taking a huge dump, pretty much the middle of the pavement, before running off to play on the roundabout for a bit, forcing a car to an emergency stop.
I was thinking of pointing it out to the supposed owner, but she was a good bit off already and utterly oblivious to what the dog was doing, and I didn't want to appear like the crazy lady dashing through business parks to yell at dog owners. Also, I might have ended up missing my bus.

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

Whispered

Shenshen wrote: »

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

If the horse got it into it's head to go somewhere, for whatever reason, spooked etc. Would you be physically able to restrain it?

Shenshen wrote: »

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

Totally not acceptable for the "owner" to allow her dog behave like that. Quite unbelieveable actually that someone would be so lax. However, I think you are misunderstanding slightly, there is not one single person here who thinks this type of behaviour is acceptable, in fact most have said, on more than one occasion, that having your dog off lead is only acceptable if it's in a suitable area (obviously not an industrial estate) and under control (which is obviously not the case in your situation).
Have you ever seen this lady before? How was the friend reacting?

I believe the "me,me,me" which was referred to was aimed at the people who believe that there should be no dogs, off lead, ever, no matter how well trained or how responsible the owner is etc.

ISDW

Shenshen wrote: »

I thought they were? Isn't that what a rein is?

I am scared of big dogs, and had to face the following yesterday : I had finished work, and was walking through the business park towards the bus stop, when a massive retreiver came towards me, down the middle of the road.
Now, there's a 25km limit on the roads in the business park, but you're allowed to guess how many people stick with that.
The dog then ran around on the road for a bit, before coming straight for me. I had nowhere to go really and just stood there petrified until he wandered. Eventually his owner came into sight, strolling along chatting with a friend (I guess it was the owner, since she was carrying a leash, she was walking down the other side of the road from me). When she had gone past, I saw the dog again a little further on taking a huge dump, pretty much the middle of the pavement, before running off to play on the roundabout for a bit, forcing a car to an emergency stop.
I was thinking of pointing it out to the supposed owner, but she was a good bit off already and utterly oblivious to what the dog was doing, and I didn't want to appear like the crazy lady dashing through business parks to yell at dog owners. Also, I might have ended up missing my bus.

Now, please do point out to me what part of my finding a situation like that horrifying and unacceptable is "me, me, me"?

But nobody who has been advocating letting their dogs exercise off lead in this thread would find that situation acceptable. That is totally irresponsible dog ownership, something that we are opposed to (sorry for speaking for everyone:D) Can you not see the difference between letting your dog off lead in a safe area, such as a park or beach, and letting them free somewhere they shouldn't be?

I find it interesting though that you state so matter of factly about the car drivers breaking the law all the time. Why is that accepted?

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

hence why I think both you and your dog should have to pass a course or something similiar before you are allowed to let you dog off leash.

You ride horses right, what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous to the general public and the only free exercise they got was in a school arena. Wouldn't that be unfair of me???

Training of both owner/dog needs to be kept up and maintained so a one off course may not do it. People only really listen when it hits their wallets.

The free excerise the mare I used to ride got was in the field every day, I would not use a livery yard that had no turn out.

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

Whispered

doctor evil wrote: »

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

If a spooked horse decided to run, can you physically restrain it? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

As for asking a poster if they thank everyone they pass, can't you see how you are tarring everyone with one brush? I have met, on a few occasions, people riding on the road with no high viz anything (in fact one hadn't even a saddle), 3 abreast on a winding road, no pulling in to allow a car to pass, no acknowledgement when you do pass etc, this is very dangerous on country roads. Just like I have met people like you who do everything beautifully and in a friendly way.

Just like dog owners, you get bad horseriders. But if people were to tar you all due to the irresponsible few, as is happening here, you would, justifiably feel as if you were being unfairly targeted.

Dogs causing a problem is not acceptable, responsible owners exercise their dogs offlead and go out of their way to avoid causing problems. Just as responsible riders go out of their way to cause no problems.

iguana

doctor evil wrote: »

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

Hold on. I'm significantly stronger than both of my dogs, even put together, even when they both had four legs. Even with reins you could not be stronger than an adult horse. I have zero problem with responsible riders riding their horses in public. But lets be realistic, a horse with a rider has the potential to do every bit as much damage as an off lead dog if the horse is badly spooked or the rider is careless.

As for your condescending last paragraph. Yes my dogs' insurance includes third party liability. They wear lights if they are out in dark or twilight. Of course I talk to everyone I meet while walking my dogs. I also take the time to let children play with my dogs, especially those who are nervous around them (3-legged spaniels are great starter dogs for the nervous to pet). I also pick up all of my dog's crap, do you do the same for your horses? I know that herbivore poo isn't as dangerous as omnivores but it's still gross.

Beyond that I've stopped crimes while walking my dogs. I've stopped burglars on 3 occasions, stopped motor bike riders going through a park 4 times (that's not including the many, many more times I've called the police for both crimes), stopped dog fighters, reported a man abusing his dog, stopped teens letting fireworks off at people and stopped an attack on people more than once. Have you?

(I lived in a crappy part of London with my dogs for several years. But it has a great dog walking community and we basically functioned as neighbourhood watch in our local parks. Not a week seemed to go by when at least one or a group of us didn't stop some crime.)

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

Training of both owner/dog needs to be kept up and maintained so a one off course may not do it. People only really listen when it hits their wallets.

The free excerise the mare I used to ride got was in the field every day, I would not use a livery yard that had no turn out.

When I rode out or anywhere for that matter the horse was always under control and I always held the reins. It is daft to bring a horse to a public place and let it have free reign everywhere, horses too can be taught tricks. Spooked dogs are also dangerous to the public.

When I hack I am fully insured, are you? When I hack I have multiple items of hi viz/reflective on myself and the mare, do you? When I hack I always make sure to acknowledge and thank who ever I come across, do you?

The course idea is a rough suggestion if it became mandatory it would need to moulded to meet effectiveness. Your right people do only listen to their wallet so fining those who haven't done a course and aren't certified to let their dogs off leash would be better than just a blanket ban on all dog owners, it's not fair to punish the majority for the actions of a few.
I've ridden horses for years so know you can hold onto the reins all you want but if a horse bolts you are pretty much on for the ride, reins are of v.little immediate use on panicked horse, they won't listen until they've calmed.
Yes my dogs are all insured.
As I am a girl walking on my own I don't walk in the dark or at dusk I only walk in broad daylight away from traffic so I don't know why I would need hi viz reflectors??
I don't know what me acknowledging and thanking everyone I come across on my walk has to do with anything, my dogs are under control and that's all that matters.

Shenshen

Whispered wrote: »

If the horse got it into it's head to go somewhere, for whatever reason, spooked etc. Would you be physically able to restrain it?

Totally not acceptable for the "owner" to allow her dog behave like that. Quite unbelieveable actually that someone would be so lax. However, I think you are misunderstanding slightly, there is not one single person here who thinks this type of behaviour is acceptable, in fact most have said, on more than one occasion, that having your dog off lead is only acceptable if it's in a suitable area (obviously not an industrial estate) and under control (which is obviously not the case in your situation).
Have you ever seen this lady before? How was the friend reacting?

I believe the "me,me,me" which was referred to was aimed at the people who believe that there should be no dogs, off lead, ever, no matter how well trained or how responsible the owner is etc.

Well, considering it's your own life in danger if you can't control a spooked horse, I suppose it must be possible in most cases for most riders. As I don't ride myself, I can't really make a qualified statement.

I've no problem with people letting dogs off lead in specially designated areas. I would simply give those areas a wide berth, and everybody would be happy.
However, I do not believe that dogs ought to be allowed off the lead in any areas not marked for the purpose.

I'm pretty certain that that dog wasn't under anybody's control, but how would I be able to tell? If there were a law about having to have the dog on a leash in a place like the industrial estate, I would have a case against an owner letting the dog run around in the middle of the road. As it is, she would most probably protest that of course the dog was under control, it would have come to her when called because it always does...
I've been there before with calling the gardai about dogs running around without an owner in sight. As long as the owner dutifully replies "But of course he was under my control at all times", how is anybody going to be able to prove any different until the next kid gets mauled?

No, I had never seen the lady before, but then this is a big business park, there are hundreds of people working here.
The friend? What would she have been reacting to? She was totally absorbed in the conversation with the (assumed) owner.

doctor evil

iguana wrote: »

know that herbivore poo isn't as dangerous as omnivores but it's still gross.

Horse poo is the equivilent of mulched grass, it gets washed away in the rain if somebody doesn't take it for their horses. Dog poo is in an entirely different category.

doctor evil

Whispered wrote: »

If a spooked horse decided to run, can you physically restrain it? (genuine question, I honestly don't know)

In a true bolting horse no, a bolting horse is not one that takes the pee and tanks nor is it one has too much energy. A proper bolt is one where a horse goes in a blind panic with no sense of self preservation. Fortunately I have never been on one.

If a rider is on the ball and horse has had proper introduction/exposure/schooling then you can spot a spook before it starts or quickly curtail it. This is made a lot more difficult with other eejit road users (I'm not taring everyone, just picking on the eejit ones;)) With regards to acknowledging other I am very wary of anyone whether they are walking/driving/cycling/riding etc who go about listening to their ipod with their head in their clouds.

Just like dog owners, you get bad horseriders. But if people were to tar you all due to the irresponsible few, as is happening here, you would, justifiably feel as if you were being unfairly targeted.

The unpopular fact is that it is easier to police a blanket ban.

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

I've ridden horses for years so know you can hold onto the reins all you want but if a horse bolts you are pretty much on for the ride, reins are of v.little immediate use on panicked horse, they won't listen until they've calmed.

For a proper bolt there is little that can be done after the obvious like the emergency stop has been tried. There is different opinions about what to do in such a situation, it would depend on setting. A true bolter has no business being ridden/driven and is nothing but a liability.

In your previous post (the one I responded to) I got the impression that you don't ride at all as it implied that horses are given free reign aka no bridle/no bit when in the mountains/beach etc. I know you used it as an example. This idea would be a pretty absurd notion. I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

iguana

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, considering it's your own life in danger if you can't control a spooked horse, I suppose it must be possible in most cases for most riders. As I don't ride myself, I can't really make a qualified statement.

If the horse is truly spooked the rider will not be able to get it physically back under control. And it's not just the rider and horse who are in danger, people get trampled by horses, horses near or on roads run into traffic and can cause (sometimes very serious) road traffic accidents. The thing is that these incidences are rare, about as rare as serious dog attacks, and as such the positives still outweigh the negatives. Just about everything in life represents some danger, look how dangerous crossing the road is, but we don't ban cars.

And also pretty much everything we do can cause discomfort to someone else. Seeing people with babies and young children causes me actual physical pain (I had a miscarriage two years ago, today, and after that my husband became too ill for us to try again). I sometimes turn and run when I unexpectedly run into children, I really can't bear it. I have irrational phobias (flying) and it's nothing compared to constantly being faced with babies after you've lost one. But we can't all alter the world to suit us. It doesn't work like that. People will take their kids to the park, and to shops and on buses, it's only right and proper. My feelings don't trump that. And I will walk my dogs in the park and by the river, I'm sorry if that scares you, but those feelings are yours, you have to deal with them. Nobody stops you from being comfortable around dogs but yourself and your discomfort doesn't trump my rights.

doctor evil wrote:

Horse poo is the equivilent of mulched grass, it gets washed away in the rain if somebody doesn't take it for their horses. Dog poo is in an entirely different category.

No, horse crap isn't just mulched grass. It contains high levels of phosphates and nitrates which can contaminate the water table. Depending on what the horse is fed the horse crap can have a PH level of around 10 which is alkaline enough to burn the soil it's left on. And worst of all, horse poo is a serious breeding ground for many insects most especially flies, (I'm sure we've all stepped near a horse or cow pat and seen the swarm of flies move off it) and other horse parasites, who are instrumental in the spreading of diseases to both humans and livestock. They also move the chemicals found in horse crap about the place.

You don't pick up your horse crap because it would ruin your ride. It's inconsiderate and it's dirty. It's unhygienic material, just because it is less toxic than carnivore/omnivore crap doesn't make it a lovely benign present you bestow upon the landscape.

Environmental/Health Impact Reduction by Composting Horse Manure, Mauritius wrote:

Raw horse manure poses a direct threat to the environment because of the presence of excessive nutrients, larvae, odours, strong leachate generation and risks of direct contamination of ground water. Around 2000 to 3000 tons of horse manure are collected by the Les Mariannes Agricultural and Mechanical Co-operatives on an annual basis. Since 1985, the NGO collects horse manure and bedding materials from around 329 horses every week from Champ de Mars and Domaine Les Pailles. The horse manure is disposed at the Roche Bois dumping site. Part of it is used by the NGO as fertiliser for growing vegetables. It is to be noted that in the vicinity of the Roche-Bois station, there are 2 localities, Roche-bois and Tombeau Bay, as well as the Terre-rouge estuary and the bird sanctuary (a potential Ramsar site)

Because of improper disposal of horse manure, both land degradation and contamination of waterbodies leading to an unhealthy environment can occur. Unfortunately, because of lack of data on the subject, one cannot measure the environmental and health impact caused these last 16 years by unsafe disposal of horse manure in Mauritius. It is known however that horse manure is very high in salts, contains parasite larvae and eggs and provides as well an excellent fly breeding environment. It contains nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, which contribute to pollution of water bodies. It is also a threat to human and livestock health as it may contain bacteria and disease causing micro-organisms. Excessive manure application rates on vegetable crops can result in high nitrate levels in shallow ground water. Nitrate levels above 10 milligrams per litre is unsafe for human consumption.

http://waterwiki.net/index.php/Environmental/Health_Impact_Reduction_by_Composting_Horse_Manure,_Mauritius

And there is a pretty in depth pamphlet here. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:TDKz26l94eAJ:www.patriotrcd.org/NRCShorsepamphlet2002.pdf+horse+poo+contamination&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgRp57F3E_vNoMQw3JxoIE-CZkYZ5Ttlj5wD07OVnKSn21IpXJpInVO7GQ4dY5WxXj-74B4IXsfOA7dAkQU075QFnQJiNSs9qgRjeyX8tQtsXBeviaEadk9J6G4u_1ibiCVHUKk&sig=AHIEtbS-LwjkkC6Bu0eOIB0vH16IBt9UEg

Whispered

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that that dog wasn't under anybody's control, but how would I be able to tell? .

~Obviously the dog in question was not under control. The fact the car had to make an emergency stop proved that.

As I said earlier, a public place is a public place. If a dog is not causing a problem then it's nobodys business to say that it shouldn't be there, unless it is a specificially designated "dogs on leash only" area. Of which there are many.

There should be somthing you could do in that situation and if the laws we already have, and which most of us stick to, were enforced, you wouldn't have had that problem.

We need to enforce the rules we have before we make others up.

Shenshen wrote: »

how is anybody going to be able to prove any different until the next kid gets mauled?
.

"the next kid" As far as I am aware we were not talking about kids being "mauled" Do you really need to go down that route? The thread is about dogs being a pain in the ass. Not dangerous dogs.

doctor evil wrote: »

If a rider is on the ball and horse has had proper introduction/exposure/schooling then you can spot a spook before it starts or quickly curtail it.

If an owner is on the ball then same goes.

You're absolutely right that a blanket ban would be easier to enforce. But that still doesn't make it fair.

I don't understand horses, they make me nervous and I don't like to be around them. I've had physical contact with maybe 5 horses in my life and was kicked by 2 of them.

Meeting them on the road - I've had one horse run headlong at my car (met him coming around the corner) all I could do was brake and hope the horse stopped - of course it did but it was scary non the less. And dangerous of course. a car coming up behind him made him begin to run, and me coming around the corner to face him had the same effect. The rider could do nothing.

Like I said above - riding 3 abreast, riding at dusk with no visi strips etc.

I still wouldn't support a blanket ban on having horses on a public road because I have also seen riders doing everything perfectly. Of course you remember the bad more easily. As I'm sure you do with offlead dogs.

doctor evil wrote: »

I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

You can apply that to lot of riders too, no?

bullylover

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

For a proper bolt there is little that can be done after the obvious like the emergency stop has been tried. There is different opinions about what to do in such a situation, it would depend on setting. A true bolter has no business being ridden/driven and is nothing but a liability.

In your previous post (the one I responded to) I got the impression that you don't ride at all as it implied that horses are given free reign aka no bridle/no bit when in the mountains/beach etc. I know you used it as an example. This idea would be a pretty absurd notion. I question how many dogs/owners would know what to do in the majority of situations which is why it is pertinent for dogs to stay on the lead, there is also the saying expect teh unexpected.

I don't want to keep harping on about horses V dogs but I'm just trying to put it in context that you can relate to. As you say a 'green' horse who is likely to bolt has no business being hacked out just as an unsocialised, untrained dog has no business being off leash. I'm sure you have a nice settled, bomb proof mare that you ride out on and trust, well that's what I have in my dogs.
I never said a horse should be ridden out with no bridle, what I meant was if I was a person who was terrified of horses I might demand a lead rope be attached to their bridle and another person lead the horse and rider while on beaches, roads or mountain trails. I'm sure you would find that unfair and unecessary for you or your horse as I find it unfair and unecessary for my dogs to be constantly on a leash.

lrushe wrote: »

what if I were to say I'm terrified of horses, that I wanted them on a lead rope when brought to the beach, mountain trails, roads etc. because a spooked horse can be v.dangerous

ISDW

bullylover wrote: »

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

There is no such thing as a dangerous dog list, could people please stop perpetuating this myth. There is a restricted breed list, but nowhere on there does it call any of the dogs dangerous.

andreac

bullylover wrote: »

hi i work with horses and have had plenty of dogs.
Firstly no there is no human on this earth who cud hold a horse if it decided it wanted to get away. Thats a half ton animal who's life revolves around keeping itself alive.
I agree that if you have ur dog off the leash it shud be trained.
I am not going to bring a newly broken horse with little experience to a busy park. I most likely will die and god knows about the other people.
Having a untrained dog off the leash is like a loaded gun.
In the horse world if some one ask if ur horse kicks, we answer "well he hasnt yet". Same should be bought the dogs, hasnt bitten but cud.
I see the point of this "dangerous dog" list, and I own a Staff and a Bull terrier. I know my dogs are capable of doing alot more damage then a shiztu but ask any groomer waht breeds they hate to see coming in to a salon and 90% will say the ****zu's, yorkies, cocker spaniels, etc
If you have to muzzle "dangerous dogs" you should have to muzzle all dogs.
Any dog can bite. On or off the lead. Owners/Handlers jst have to be aware of whats going on and they have to have there dog trained to a T.
When I bring my dogs out, always on leads, 99.9% of the dogs that hassle us are the tiny ones and they drive my dogs MAD never mind me.
Both my dogs are sound of mind and v good temperment but when theres a jack russel hanging of my bull terriers leg and she is growling im sick of people looking and pointing at the "bad dangerous bull terrier attackig the jack russel" when in fact its the stupid jack russel who bloody started it!
ok im finished my lil rant...

Please get your facts right. Its not the "Dangerous Dogs List":mad: its the "Restricted Breeds list", Very, very different!

Shenshen

Whispered wrote: »

~Obviously the dog in question was not under control. The fact the car had to make an emergency stop proved that.

As I said earlier, a public place is a public place. If a dog is not causing a problem then it's nobodys business to say that it shouldn't be there, unless it is a specificially designated "dogs on leash only" area. Of which there are many.

There should be somthing you could do in that situation and if the laws we already have, and which most of us stick to were enforced, you wouldn't have had that problem.

In my experience, a dog is not causing problems right up to the point when it starts causing problems.

"Under control" is an extremely fuzzy term, and legally nigh impossible to prove, unless something serious actually did happen.

"the next kid" As far as I am aware we were not talking about kids being "mauled" Do you really need to go down that route? The thread is about dogs being a pain in the ass. Not dangerous dogs.

Ok, replace "mauled" with "attacked", then.

As I said, when I was attacked as a child, I was told by the owner that "the dog just wants to play" while it had already sunk its teeth into me and drawn blood, followed by a lengthy "he never ever attacked anyone before, it must have been the child running that set him off, I really don't understand it"

As I said, I'm fine with people having dogs off the leash in parks and the like, it allows me to stay clear of them. I've only ever been to a park once for this reason since coming to Ireland, and I won't set foot in one again.
But if I'm waiting at a bus stop, with no shops to run into anywhere in the vicinity, I am not happy with any dog running around without a leash on it.

Discodog

My definition of being under control is that I would not allow my dogs to run up to anyone that I didn't know. Everyone has the right not to be approached by a dog. It drives me nuts when I meet a dog walker & out of respect put mine on the lead only to have someone's dog leaping all over mine. It is different if I know the dog & owner.

I apply this rule even more with people who are walking without dogs as they have every right to enjoy a walk without being hassled. Having lived in the UK people here seem much more nervous of dogs. I suspect that part of this is down to the number of strays & out of control dogs.

I am about to walk mine. I will be joined by two dogs that are owned by a neighbour, whether I like it or not. The neighbour will not notice that their dogs are missing or care what they are doing.

As dog lovers surely we want as many people to like, or at least not fear dogs. Dogs in Ireland need all the friends that they can get. So it is up to us to show dogs in a good light & not as a menace. We have to make the effort not the people who do not own dogs.

lrushe

Shenshen wrote: »

But if I'm waiting at a bus stop, with no shops to run into anywhere in the vicinity, I am not happy with any dog running around without a leash on it.

I absolutely agree with you, this is an unexceptable situation to have a dog off leash and its people like this who give everyone a bad name, there will always be bad apples in every group that spoil it for everyone but compulsory requirements for all dogs to be kept on a lead will only effect those who are responsible, those who aren't responsible won't give a damn and won't follow the law, so what will that solve, nothing, it will only serve to punish the responsible without changing a thing.

Whispered

Shenshen wrote: »

As I said, I'm fine with people having dogs off the leash in parks and the like, it allows me to stay clear of them. I've only ever been to a park once for this reason since coming to Ireland, and I won't set foot in one again.
But if I'm waiting at a bus stop, with no shops to run into anywhere in the vicinity, I am not happy with any dog running around without a leash on it.

Then we are agreeing with each other sheshen - a dog running around unleashed at a bus stop (obv side of the road) is not under effective control and this is not acceptable.

Shenshen

lrushe wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you, this is an unexceptable situation to have a dog off leash and its people like this who give everyone a bad name, there will always be bad apples in every group that spoil it for everyone but compulsory requirements for all dogs to be kept on a lead will only effect those who are responsible, those who aren't responsible won't give a damn and won't follow the law, so what will that solve, nothing, it will only serve to punish the responsible without changing a thing.

Is that so difficult to grasp? If the dog is off the leash, and there is a law by which it shouldn't be, all it takes is one photo shot on my phone as evidence, and I could actually do something about it.

As long as the owner can claim that of course the dog was under control, how am I able to call her up on acting irresponsibly?

Whispered

I'm the same with Harley, if someone approaches us we usually clip him back on. We often meet people with smaller dogs who don't bother and we end up with him straining on the lead to have a sniff of the little dog who's climbing all over him. I do think other dog walkers are the bane of some owners life.

Discodog wrote: »

Dogs in Ireland need all the friends that they can get. So it is up to us to show dogs in a good light & not as a menace. We have to make the effort not the people who do not own dogs.

What do you suggest beyond measures commonly taken by good owners such as yourself?

Not allowing them approach other people or dogs, leashing them where necessary for the comfort of other people, putting training into their recall, keeping them close enough to you when offlead so people can immediately see the dog is with an owner, offering a polite hello to people when passing, not allowing them off in areas such as parks with "no offlead dogs" signs, ALWAYS cleaning up after them, travelling to quieter areas, avoiding high traffic areas (ie a beach on a sunny saturday is not an appropiate place to have your dog offleash), putting hours of socialisation in with them etc. I think any good owner goes through these steps, and more, I would consider this an effort being made. All I'd ask in return, if my dog is ignoring you, give it the same courtsey. Yet you still have people calling for a blanket ban on offlead dogs.

I genuinely do understand the need for tighter restrictions on how people allow their pets offlead. There are some people, and I wouldn't even say the minority tbh, who let their dog off and forget about it. We do have laws and guidelines for that though which are not enforced. I think all (responsible) owners would be very happy to see a clamp down on out of control dogs and their silly uncaring owners.

ISDW

Shenshen wrote: »

Is that so difficult to grasp? If the dog is off the leash, and there is a law by which it shouldn't be, all it takes is one photo shot on my phone as evidence, and I could actually do something about it.

As long as the owner can claim that of course the dog was under control, how am I able to call her up on acting irresponsibly?

You take a photo, then what? You approach the owner and ask for their name and address, so that you can report them? Or you take the photo of the dog to the local garda station, and ask them to find the dog? Great theory, but I can't see how it would work in practice.

I totally disagree with the RB legislation, but I have seen photos put up of dogs walks with RBs in attendance, and Gardai stroking them, and having a good chat with the owners, with none of the dogs complying with the law. Now I'm glad that the Gards are relaxed around the dogs, but if they won't enforce the law thats there and that they can see being broken, I really can't see them doing anything about the scenario that you describe.

Guill

i walk my dogs on the leash in town or off the leash at home (in the countryside). When they are off the leash they will not stray more than 5 foot from me and all i have to do is say here and they fall into line eitherside of me (and a little behind). When they meet other dogs thay whine and look at me for permission to go off for a sniff but dont unless i say go-on. Good stern training beats a leash everyday.

in town they are on the leash because of the strays etc annoying them.

BAv

There's nothing wrong with owners letting their dogs run off leash, but the owner must be sure that their dog won't attack or harass other dogs or walkers. There are a number of dog walking areas near my home, and I've lost count of the number of times that my dog (who I keep on leash, and is not at all aggressive) has been attacked by off leash dogs, once while being walked by my Grandmother, who suffered a nasty injury as a result.

My previous dog was a rescue dog, who hadn't been socialized at all for her first two years, and as a result could be aggressive towards other dogs and occasionally people. We worked with a few different trainers but to no avail. Because she was quite a large dog, she needed some off lead time to run, but we made sure to always put her lead back on if another dog was near, and tried to walk her at off peak hours, in the early morning or evening, so she wouldn't harass other dogs or people.

The argument cited earlier, that we must tolerate aspects of society that we find objectionable, isn't really applicable. Tolerating badly controlled or aggressive dogs walking off leash isn't the same as putting up with objectionable television adverts or smells. Some people are genuinely terrified of dogs, and while they have to accept that well behaved, calm dogs can be walked off leash, they shouldn't have to tolerate poorly trained dogs jumping on them. To think otherwise is just selfish and irresponsible.

Whispered

BAv wrote: »

The argument cited earlier, that we must tolerate aspects of society that we find objectionable, isn't really applicable. Tolerating badly controlled or aggressive dogs walking off leash isn't the same as putting up with objectionable television adverts or smells. Some people are genuinely terrified of dogs, and while they have to accept that well behaved, calm dogs can be walked off leash, they shouldn't have to tolerate poorly trained dogs jumping on them. To think otherwise is just selfish and irresponsible.

What about the numerous arguments also cited earlier - you know - the one where almost everybody here has said the same as you, it's not acceptable for your dog to annoy people, it's not accaptable to allow agressive dogs off etc (I'm not even going to list them again, they're all in previous posts).

People are calling for a blanket ban on offlead dogs. Thats the issue, of course we should be able to walk without a dog annoying you - but to make it illegal to have dogs offlead at all, no matter how well behaved?

lrushe

BAv wrote: »

The argument cited earlier, that we must tolerate aspects of society that we find objectionable, isn't really applicable. Tolerating badly controlled or aggressive dogs walking off leash isn't the same as putting up with objectionable television adverts or smells. Some people are genuinely terrified of dogs, and while they have to accept that well behaved, calm dogs can be walked off leash, they shouldn't have to tolerate poorly trained dogs jumping on them. To think otherwise is just selfish and irresponsible.

If you read through this whole thread you would see that it has been repeatly stated that an unsocialised, untrained, agressive dog should under no circumstances be off leash. Nobody is saying anyone should have to tolerate an out of control dog, most responsible dog owners have a problem with these type of dogs also. The point that was being made was is just because some people have a fear of dogs (good and bad) doesn't mean all dogs owners should have to suffer.

BAv

Yes, I have read the entire thread, and there were other posters who had stated (without caveats) that dogs ought to be allowed to walk off lead, and that other people need to be tolerant of this. I was merely disagreeing with those particular posters.

Perhaps when people are buying/adopting a dog they ought to consider the walking facilities available, and if they don't live near an area with some parkland or a similar area nearby where their dog can run without bothering people, then don't get a dog that can't get enough exercise by being walked on a flexible leash.