Do men really need relationships?

candy-gal1

budgemook wrote: »

is that vomiting thing true? i may get down to boots

yep, it is very true!

Boskowski

To answer the question. No they probably don't. If we're talking primal urges then all men really want is spread their genes and do manly stuff like hunting and fighting or their modern equivalents. Which implies that we're not naturally monogamous and we're not overly keen on decking the cave out and minding the screaming offspring.

I take it the OP asked more of a theoretical, fundamental question that doesn't really warrant lectures about responsibilty and 'growing up'.

Darlughda

Do men really need relationships?

What kind of dumb question is that, anyway? Some men do, and some men don't is the most realiastic response to that kind of black and white, female vs male all or nothing type of limited thinking that stupid people engage in when or if they are looking at the world.

This is the kind of question I would expect as the opening line of some turgid chick lit novel. Really, what world are you living in OP?

To be honest, I feel very, very sorry for your girlfriend. How horrible it must be to end up as the mother of a child fathered by the likes of you, by your whole account you are just beyond words, having said that your meanness, lack of love, and decency paints a clear picture about you.

Do you really think that women enjoy ending up with the type of 'man' who thinks they have a raw deal because they have a child with the woman they have been having sex with? Who on earth can really believe in this day and age, that a woman would try to 'trap' a man by pregnancy? Why would any woman want to do that, give me one good reason why.

I feel very sorry for her, you sound horrible, and If I were her, I would take my child and run many miles.

arsenallegend

For me no not Really i like it been by myself and having someone else you have to spend time with isn't something i'm big on.

porschespeedst

ollie cahill wrote: »

I was reflecting on my own personal circumstances and how I'm in a relationship with my gf, I became a father within the past few months and bought a house to match.

I'm starting to feel that my quality of life was better off when I was single. Nothing to do with chasing women but just the fact that I had so much more freedom, more money and far less responsibility. I basically go to work now just to pay bills. GF stays at home and minds the baby so I'm the only source of income. We're not struggling but I couldn't afford not to work. Now I have to pay for mortgage, internet, telephone, bb, esb, car. Previously I paid rent and esb and I had €2K per month disposable income.

I had arranged to go to a friends B-Day party, my gf was invited but couldn't go because she stayed at home and minded the baby (fair enough). Battery was dead on my phone so later in the evening my gf starts to call up my friends at the party to see where I am and what time I'll be home. Very embarassing.

I feel as though my life has become all about appeasing my gf and living the so called sterotype and the more I think about it and more men I speak to in similar situations the more I realise that my feelings are not unique. Other men I've spoken to have told me similar stories and how they learn to ignore the "nagging" or they just dont tell their OH certain things just for a bit of peace. Nearly everyone of my friends that has children isn't married and apparantley their partners were all on the pill. Ireland must have the highest failure rate of birth control in the developed world.

But the more I think about it, it appears to me that the whole relationship/marriage scenario is designed to provide security for women and to contain men.

Anyone else have similar experience or advice.

The grass is always greener on other side of the fence. I am literally wasting away from loneliness because of not having a girlfriend.

djimi

Darlughda wrote: »

Do men really need relationships?

What kind of dumb question is that, anyway? Some men do, and some men don't is the most realiastic response to that kind of black and white, female vs male all or nothing type of limited thinking that stupid people engage in when or if they are looking at the world.

This is the kind of question I would expect as the opening line of some turgid chick lit novel. Really, what world are you living in OP?

To be honest, I feel very, very sorry for your girlfriend. How horrible it must be to end up as the mother of a child fathered by the likes of you, by your whole account you are just beyond words, having said that your meanness, lack of love, and decency paints a clear picture about you.

Do you really think that women enjoy ending up with the type of 'man' who thinks they have a raw deal because they have a child with the woman they have been having sex with? Who on earth can really believe in this day and age, that a woman would try to 'trap' a man by pregnancy? Why would any woman want to do that, give me one good reason why.

I feel very sorry for her, you sound horrible, and If I were her, I would take my child and run many miles.

I agree with most of what you have said, but dont be naive to think that there arent women out there who get pregnant deliberately to "trap" men; I know of at least one girl who has openly admitted to pinning holes in condoms in order to get pregnant by a bloke, and another couple who I strongly suspect might be doing the same. The very idea of it sickens me beyond belief. Im not saying its widespread or anything, Ive no doubt its only a very small number of women who would be that twisted as to do such a thing, but it does happen.

djimi

budgemook wrote: »

is that vomiting thing true? i may get down to boots

Yeah its true. I dont know the exact reason behind it but hearing it was enough to make me realise that the pill is about as effective a method of contraception as packet of Smarties.

Jenneke87

Jenneke87 wrote: »

If that were the case, why did you decide to engage in a relationship and even got married and having a baby? Surely, if you felt that that would only "contain" you, you could have stayed single?

He's not married ! and was the point about the pill lost on you? he's in the relationship cause of the kid !!

opinion guy

Darlughda wrote: »

Do men really need relationships?

What kind of dumb question is that, anyway? Some men do, and some men don't is the most realiastic response to that kind of black and white, female vs male all or nothing type of limited thinking that stupid people engage in when or if they are looking at the world.

This is the kind of question I would expect as the opening line of some turgid chick lit novel. Really, what world are you living in OP?

To be honest, I feel very, very sorry for your girlfriend. How horrible it must be to end up as the mother of a child fathered by the likes of you, by your whole account you are just beyond words, having said that your meanness, lack of love, and decency paints a clear picture about you.

Do you really think that women enjoy ending up with the type of 'man' who thinks they have a raw deal because they have a child with the woman they have been having sex with? Who on earth can really believe in this day and age, that a woman would try to 'trap' a man by pregnancy? Why would any woman want to do that, give me one good reason why.

I feel very sorry for her, you sound horrible, and If I were her, I would take my child and run many miles.

Judgemental much ?

You want reasons for women to trap a man ?? List:
1) Being crazy
2) Emotional insecurity
3) Encroaching age
4) Broodyness
5) Greed when man is rich
6) Fed up waiting on man to want to settle

Many more crazy reasons why crazy people do crazy things.
I'm sorry as someone else said above I know of cases. It does happen.

mood

djimi wrote: »

I agree with most of what you have said, but dont be naive to think that there arent women out there who get pregnant deliberately to "trap" men; I know of at least one girl who has openly admitted to pinning holes in condoms in order to get pregnant by a bloke, and another couple who I strongly suspect might be doing the same. The very idea of it sickens me beyond belief. Im not saying its widespread or anything, Ive no doubt its only a very small number of women who would be that twisted as to do such a thing, but it does happen.

I know no women who got pregnant like this but I do know of one guy who pinning holes in condoms in order to get the girl pregnant!!!

Men really need to educate them selfs about contraception.

Zascar

I think this would be a much better discussion without the OP's personal story. Generally, these days, men do not feel like they need to be in relationships. You are no longer a social outcast if you are 30 and single like you would have been in our parents day. If men can get regular sex and female attention etc there is not the necessity to pin yourself down into a possibly difficult/demanding relationship.

I know loads of guys who are in their 30's and have absolutely no desire to get married or ever have any form of committed relationship. Times are a changing!

You do realise that you brought this on yourself, OP? No-one forced you to knock-up your girlfriend. Like it or not the welfare of her and your child is your responsibility.
I think you need to grow the fooch up and stop thinking about yourself.

In general the answer is NO. Men do not need relationships. Nor do women, for that matter. Some want them and some don't. But the predicament you're in is of your own making. Sorry 'bout you, love.

Tryst

Zascar wrote: »

I think this would be a much better discussion without the OP's personal story.

The thread woudn't exist without the OP's personal story....

Boskowski wrote: »

To answer the question. No they probably don't. If we're talking primal urges then all men really want is spread their genes and do manly stuff like hunting and fighting or their modern equivalents. Which implies that we're not naturally monogamous and we're not overly keen on decking the cave out and minding the screaming offspring.

I take it the OP asked more of a theoretical, fundamental question that doesn't really warrant lectures about responsibilty and 'growing up'.

By your logic women should also want to have many sex partners as we are also sleeping with a lot of different men and yet in this day and age most women want to have one partner to settle down with.

It doesn't read like a theoretical question it reads like some whiney child realising that being an adult is hard and not always fun. I choose not to have a house and children he could have chosen to wear a condom, stupid actions like this have consequences. Plus he isn't even considering if his girlfriend could have post natal depression, if she's possibley bored as hell staying in with the baby and the only 'adult' conversation she has all day is with her boyfriend who would abviously be anywhere else than at home with her and their child.

banquo

This is what scares me about marriage. I see guys out washing the windows at 8:30 on a Sunday morning, and you know that wasn't their idea.

the airbag man

did you ever heard the saying "some mothers do have them"?
dont get me wrong not the mother of your child but your own mother,what are you doing using your full name?
lets hope its a false one, or you have just given your girlfriend fuel to burn you for the rest of your time together.
anyway life is about these things, its called growing up, relationships are like women ward work some... most times
yes most men would agree that the whole living together/ getting married gives women more than it gives men..... well most men anyway
you will have to learn to roll with it, if life is to be anyway easy for you.
REMEMBER to take care out there its a very big bad world.

mood

banquo wrote: »

This is what scares me about marriage. I see guys out washing the windows at 8:30 on a Sunday morning, and you know that wasn't their idea.

Crap. I know quite a few men who WANT to do stuff like washing windows at 8.30am and would do so if they were single.

I don't agree that women get more from marriage than men at all. Some do, some don't. It all depends on the particular couple.

OP I still think you have it better than you OH. She had to give up a career to mind your child while you still get to work and socialise while she is stuck at home.

BopNiblets

To quote Chris Rock (who was actually referring to raising children alone but I think the same applies to men or women needing relationships):
"You can drive a car with your feet if you want to but that doesn't mean it's a good idea!"

In short, you don't need relationships but you might be better off.

Even shorter, I don't know.

Eve_Dublin

Am I missing something here? OP has a kid, which adds a different facet to their relationship and will obviously cause issues. What about relationships minus kids? Do guys not want those either? Why is it presumed that all relationships will inevitably end in marriage and kids?? I think both men AND women are opting for relationships minus both these things nowadays.

The Corinthian

ollie cahill wrote: »

I was reflecting on my own personal circumstances and how I'm in a relationship with my gf, I became a father within the past few months and bought a house to match.

As the story goes, if you throw a frog into boiling water, it'll jump out. If you throw a frog into cold water and slowly boil it, it'll paddle around until it finally gets boiled alive without realizing. You've just realized you've been boiled alive and it's too late.

This is not to say that I have much sympathy for you. You chose to go out with her. You chose to live with her. You chose to stay with her and perhaps ignore all those little hints she dropped about the future, happy in the knowledge that you could keep the status quo going indefinitely. But you can't.

So, I'm sorry, but it's too late now and you had plenty of time to get out of it while you could.

But the more I think about it, it appears to me that the whole relationship/marriage scenario is designed to provide security for women and to contain men.

Unfortunately, in Ireland, the attitude still remains that the woman should be the homemaker and child carer, or more correctly she should have the right to choose this, while men may not. It's even in the constitution.

As a result women will typically get custody of any children and also be net beneficiary on the relationships assets and future income (in particular due to having custody of the children). It is very, very difficult to deny that men really do get the short end of the straw in family law.

So do men really need relationships? No more or no less than anyone else. Can we afford them really comes down to the person you're with and I do think that in countries like Ireland (where you no longer even need to be married to be in indentured servitude for life) the answer is no in the vast majority of cases.

Reproduction is perhaps the only reason for I can see, unless you can afford to do a Riky Martin on it. I would also suggest that regular sex is another reason, but a relationship is no guarantee of any sex.

mood wrote: »

Men really need to educate them selfs about contraception.

The first lesson is that we do not have the same level of control over our reproduction as women have. Pre conception can have a vasectomy or use condoms and that's it. Post conception we have nothing.

So, unfortunately, as educated as a man may be on the subject it comes down to this and as a result most of the time it comes down to him trusting the woman he's with.

If not, it is not to say that she will actively become pregnant - what seems to be more commonplace is a form of 'sloppiness' where she'll forget to take the pill or suggest that a condom isn't really necessary because she's 'safe' that day (and then miscalculates the days). Of course, it could be accidental, but if so it would appear that one's mid-thirties are very prone to accidents indeed.

The Corinthian

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Am I missing something here? OP has a kid, which adds a different facet to their relationship and will obviously cause issues. What about relationships minus kids? Do guys not want those either?

Unless you can trust the woman you're with not to 'change her mind' you have few options to ensure this.

I know a couple who've been together for 8 years and had always agreed not to have any. She's now 32 and has effectively changed her mind. He hasn't. Only a matter of time, TBH.

Why is it presumed that all relationships will inevitably end in marriage and kids??

I have yet to come across a relationship that has lasted longer than ten years and both are still young enough to have children, that did not inevitably end in at least children and sometimes also marriage.

28064212

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unless you can trust the woman you're with not to 'change her mind' you have few options to ensure this.

Few options is not the same as no options. If a guy is dead set against having kids, he can get the snip. And unless a woman can trust a man not to 'change his mind', she has few options to ensure this. The only extra option she has is abortion.

Eve_Dublin

The Corinthian wrote: »

I know a couple who've been together for 8 years and had always agreed not to have any. She's now 32 and has effectively changed her mind. He hasn't. Only a matter of time, TBH.

I don't think you can make those kinds of promises at 24 years of age and expect to feel the same when you hit your late twenties when the broodiness kicks in.

What about couples who get together later in life? I'm 30 and I'm almost 100% sure I don't want to have kids. I get broody over other people's kids but I know what it's like day-to-day. Doesn't appeal. My boyfriend is a fair bit older than me and although we haven't discussed children (it's only been 5 months), i'm guessing he has no interest. We both like our independence too much. I've lots of friends in a similiar situation...met their OHs in their late twenties, OHs are older and kids are not on the cards and I think that's the way it'll stay. I think any couple that meets in their early twenties will go down the traditional route of marriage and kids but in my experience, more and more people aren't meeting the love of their lives in their early twenties anymore.

Edit: By the way, I'm not saying this is now the norm but it's definitely more common. More and more women are choosing not to have kids. My sister is one who resolutely does not want children despite pressure from every quater and has been with her husband for about 15 years.

mood

The amount of men here who don't understand how the pill works and what makes it not work is shocking. My advice don't sleep with any woman on the pill (without a condom) until you understand it. You should also know you partners cycle if in a proper relationship.

If you don't want kids take proper precautions and don't leave it all up to you partner.

The Corinthian

28064212 wrote: »

Few options is not the same as no options. If a guy is dead set against having kids, he can get the snip. And unless a woman can trust a man not to 'change his mind', she has few options to ensure this. The only extra option she has is abortion.

She also has adoption and the morning after pill. Additionally, she too could get the 'snip'.

A guy also may not be dead set against having kids, only not just yet and he does not have the same level of control over his reproduction as a woman and it's kind of insulting to suggest that he should get the snip, TBH.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't think you can make those kinds of promises at 24 years of age and expect to feel the same when you hit your late twenties when the broodiness kicks in.

I agree, but the problem arises when faced with either breaking up or having an 'accident', the latter is chosen. Also changes of heart don't always take place on the promise made at 24; some promises are made at 28 or 33 only to be reversed a few years later.

What about couples who get together later in life?

Take children out of the equation (couples over 40) and the playing field becomes far more level. I say becomes, because even then it's not as it still remains far more socially acceptable for a woman to become a homemaker (and thus financially dependent on the man) than the reverse and is even legally protected in the constitution:

Article 41.2.1 In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

mood wrote: »

The amount of men here who don't understand how the pill works and what makes it not work is shocking. My advice don't sleep with any woman on the pill (without a condom) until you understand it. You should also know you partners cycle if in a proper relationship.

If you don't want kids take proper precautions and don't leave it all up to you partner.

I agree, but this lends credence to the cynical view that a man cannot trust a woman where it comes to reproduction.

Wibbs

Tryst wrote: »

The thread woudn't exist without the OP's personal story....

No but like he said a better discussion might have come about without some of the emotional responses to the OPs story.

By your logic women should also want to have many sex partners as we are also sleeping with a lot of different men and yet in this day and age most women want to have one partner to settle down with.

Quite a few do sleep around and good luck to them. There are some braod differences though. Not least biological. Men theoretically can have lots and lots of kids by lots and lots of different women(I think the record is 300 or some such). Women are more vulnerable when pregnant and nursing(or were in the past) so you could argue it makes more sense for a woman to have a partner around, than the other way around.

There's also the possibility that humans have a reproductive cycle. There's some evidence that it lasts about 4 years as an average. That we're "designed" to be serial monogamists. Look at an average week in PI. Thread after thread of "I'm with my partner 3/4 years, but something is missing/I think they're cheating/should I leave". Considering the gender demographics of the site, it's interesting that most of of the ones doing the leaving are the women. Usually in their 20's when they have more choices of reproductive partners. That number tends to drop when they hit their 30's(then its more likely "I'm with my partner 6 years but he wont commit"). I've noted this reflected in life. It's also a lot rarer to hear of a man complaining his girlfriend won't commit after a couple of years. At any age. So it seems relationships and the dynamics of them and the choices within them are more on the ladies side.

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course, it could be accidental, but if so it would appear that one's mid-thirties are very prone to accidents indeed.

I would agree. During my 30's I was surprised at how many women I knew including mates, who ended up pregnant. Women who had had very active sex lives throughout their 20's with barely a scare, yet as their reproductive health was beginning it's downward turn ended up more fertile and less careful? However, except in two cases I knew, I really dont think it was deliberate or planned. I many cases I reckon it was just the odds caught up to them. In others I think it was subconscious broodiness, in others just over confidence and sloppiness mixed with the broodiness.

Zascar wrote:

Generally, these days, men do not feel like they need to be in relationships. You are no longer a social outcast if you are 30 and single like you would have been in our parents day. If men can get regular sex and female attention etc there is not the necessity to pin yourself down into a possibly difficult/demanding relationship.

Pretty much. In this example the sorely needed and welcome changes in equality and sexual revolution have to some degree backfired on women more than men.

That said men like that while more common are still outliers. Most men and women are settled into long termers with kids or the possibility of them by their mid 30's.

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

No but like he said a better discussion might have come about without some of the emotional responses to the OPs story.

Quite a few do sleep around and good luck to them. There are some braod differences though. Not least biological. Men theoretically can have lots and lots of kids by lots and lots of different women(I think the record is 300 or some such). Women are more vulnerable when pregnant and nursing(or were in the past) so you could argue it makes more sense for a woman to have a partner around, than the other way around.

There's also the possibility that humans have a reproductive cycle. There's some evidence that it lasts about 4 years as an average. That we're "designed" to be serial monogamists. Look at an average week in PI. Thread after thread of "I'm with my partner 3/4 years, but something is missing/I think they're cheating/should I leave". Considering the gender demographics of the site, it's interesting that most of of the ones doing the leaving are the women. Usually in their 20's when they have more choices of reproductive partners. That number tends to drop when they hit their 30's(then its more likely "I'm with my partner 6 years but he wont commit"). I've noted this reflected in life. It's also a lot rarer to hear of a man complaining his girlfriend won't commit after a couple of years. At any age. So it seems relationships and the dynamics of them and the choices within them are more on the ladies side.

I would agree. During my 30's I was surprised at how many women I knew including mates, who ended up pregnant. Women who had had very active sex lives throughout their 20's with barely a scare, yet as their reproductive health was beginning it's downward turn ended up more fertile and less careful? However, except in two cases I knew, I really dont think it was deliberate or planned. I many cases I reckon it was just the odds caught up to them. In others I think it was subconscious broodiness, in others just over confidence and sloppiness mixed with the broodiness.

Pretty much. In this example the sorely needed and welcome changes in equality and sexual revolution have to some degree backfired on women more than men.

That said men like that while more common are still outliers. Most men and women are settled into long termers with kids or the possibility of them by their mid 30's.

I think women can get sloppy in their 30s, or mid thirties onwards because there is an industry out there which is convincing them how hard it is for them to get pregnant and how much on the decline their fertility is. So they gamble and lose.

In your twenties, your doctors are drilling it into you how it only takes the sparkle of an eye to get you pregnant and you are convinced the damn sperm can fly and make their own way there. By the time your thirties come around, the doctors are telling you it can happen but much much harder to get pregnant.

I think people have been hard on the OP. I notice this a lot on these kinds of threads where people are sufferring and others turn around and say "well it was your choice!" as if that makes things any better. The other side of choice is always sacrifice, but that does not mean whatever he is going through doesnt deserve some empathy. Once he gets in touch with that he might be able to empathise with his wife and love his child instead of resent him or her.

Domestic life can be suffocating. Its the story of every surburban tale from Look Back in Anger to American Beauty.

I think I was asleep because I missed the day that suddenly life was meant to be easy.

LegacyUser

it's always going to be a bit of this and a bit of that..

But neither men nor women NEED relationships but they are essential for growth and they are the last thing you are asking for on your death bed (being a bit blunt there but so is the op)

I'm a nurse in an a hospice and I can tell you the relationships you make throughout your life really make you who you are so maintain good relationships throughout your life..relationships are probably the toughest to maintain that's why you constantly have to work at them but the rewards speak for themselves too.

If this isn't the relationship for you op then do yourself and your gf..and your child by being honest, maybe you have post natal depression? men can get it too you know.
There are plenty of men out there for your girlfriend who would be willing to support her correctly so you don't have to through the toughest time of her life. I have a son myself and can honestly say I wasn't prepared for parenthood and got very overwhelmed but I got through it. Life is not always easy and having a child is the hardest

I'm also nearly 3mths pregnant and my OH is more delighted than me, all he ever wanted was a partner and children so im not sure where this 'men benefit more than women in marriages' 'men don't need women' 'men must do the right thing' 'men are pushed into commitment' this just shows they are not in the right relationship.

fionav3

I'm actually pretty disturbed by the amount of people who think women would get pregnant on purpose! Very, very, VERY few women would deliberately trap a man by having a baby because the vast majority of women know the HUGE responsibility that having kids brings. I'm not saying there aren't some unscrupulous types out there but like someone already said, any women I know who would fall pregnant outside of marraige would be devasted.

And there's something just a tad 1950's about thinking that marraige brings security for women but there's nothing in it for men. Probably there's something in it for both parties, otherwise why would people get married? Personally, the very idea of marraige or kids leaves me cold. And while I have some friends with children, the vast majority of my friends have no interest in having kids at all. I'm 29, almost 30, and never want kids. I like them, I just have no interest in having them because I like my freedom, my independance, being able to do what I want when I want and spending my money on myself. When you have kids, it becomes (rightly) all about them and most of the women I know have no interest in that. Suggesting that women trap men into it because a biological clock is ticking is nonsense! Preganancy is uncomfortable at best and painful at worst, and don't even get me started on childbirth! And that's before the real hardwork starts...does anyone really think a women is willing to go through all that to 'trap' a man who may not even really want them?

Anyway, sorry about the long rant. It's just I was horrified to think that there are some people who think women would do this, not to mention blaming the women! There were two people present at conception, why is it the women's fault?

But there I am, ranting again! :rolleyes: Just an interesting point to note; over the years, whenever I've said I never want kids, women are either rather surprised and say nothing, or just accept it. Most men on the other hand, smile and nod knowingly before telling me that 'you'll change your mind.' I'm not saying all men have these views, but I think men do have a preconcieved notion that all women want children and that's just not true. More and more women are opting out of having children because there are far better options available to us than previous generations. Marraige was once expected of women and often the only option available to them. Nowadays its not but somehow that old notion that women just want to be married still persists. Please guys, don't always assume that, it's just plain irritating. Cheers!

opinion guy

fionav3 wrote: »

I'm actually pretty disturbed by the amount of people who think women would get pregnant on purpose! Very, very, VERY few women would deliberately trap a man by having a baby because the vast majority of women know the HUGE responsibility that having kids brings. I'm not saying there aren't some unscrupulous types out there but like someone already said, any women I know who would fall pregnant outside of marraige would be devasted.

And there's something just a tad 1950's about thinking that marraige brings security for women but there's nothing in it for men. Probably there's something in it for both parties, otherwise why would people get married? Personally, the very idea of marraige or kids leaves me cold. And while I have some friends with children, the vast majority of my friends have no interest in having kids at all. I'm 29, almost 30, and never want kids. I like them, I just have no interest in having them because I like my freedom, my independance, being able to do what I want when I want and spending my money on myself. When you have kids, it becomes (rightly) all about them and most of the women I know have no interest in that. Suggesting that women trap men into it because a biological clock is ticking is nonsense! Preganancy is uncomfortable at best and painful at worst, and don't even get me started on childbirth! And that's before the real hardwork starts...does anyone really think a women is willing to go through all that to 'trap' a man who may not even really want them?

Anyway, sorry about the long rant. It's just I was horrified to think that there are some people who think women would do this, not to mention blaming the women! There were two people present at conception, why is it the women's fault?

But there I am, ranting again! :rolleyes: Just an interesting point to note; over the years, whenever I've said I never want kids, women are either rather surprised and say nothing, or just accept it. Most men on the other hand, smile and nod knowingly before telling me that 'you'll change your mind.' I'm not saying all men have these views, but I think men do have a preconcieved notion that all women want children and that's just not true. More and more women are opting out of having children because there are far better options available to us than previous generations. Marraige was once expected of women and often the only option available to them. Nowadays its not but somehow that old notion that women just want to be married still persists. Please guys, don't always assume that, it's just plain irritating. Cheers!

Honestly....and I'm not being a wise ass here....give it five years.
Yes, yes I know...assumptions, preconceptions and all that. Still thou...give it five years....

djimi

fionav3 wrote: »

I'm actually pretty disturbed by the amount of people who think women would get pregnant on purpose! Very, very, VERY few women would deliberately trap a man by having a baby because the vast majority of women know the HUGE responsibility that having kids brings. I'm not saying there aren't some unscrupulous types out there but like someone already said, any women I know who would fall pregnant outside of marraige would be devasted.

Anyway, sorry about the long rant. It's just I was horrified to think that there are some people who think women would do this, not to mention blaming the women! There were two people present at conception, why is it the women's fault?

In what way could it possibly be a blokes fault if he is responsible enough to use a condom but that condom has been tampered with by the woman?

And Im not suggesting that it happens a lot, Im not even suggesting that it happens any more than very occasionally, but I do know at least one girl who I know by her own admission did this. Made my blood run cold when I heard it.

Eve_Dublin

opinion guy wrote: »

Honestly....and I'm not being a wise ass here....give it five years.
Yes, yes I know...assumptions, preconceptions and all that. Still thou...give it five years....

Why oh why oh why can't some men accept that some women don't want to have kids? My sister (36) is a case in point. Is happily married and would make a fantastic mother...but doesn't want kids. End of. If it happens accidently, that's another thing but we have a good idea whether we want kids or not by the time we reach 30. It's a dated view to presume that we all want to breed. There really is a move away from the traditional route of marriage and kids. Just you wait and see how it pans out int the future.

Eve_Dublin

djimi wrote: »

In what way could it possibly be a blokes fault if he is responsible enough to use a condom but that condom has been tampered with by the woman?

And Im not suggesting that it happens a lot, Im not even suggesting that it happens any more than very occasionally, but I do know at least one girl who I know by her own admission did this. Made my blood run cold when I heard it.

It happens but really, women like that are not mentally stable in my book. You're going to find your share of looneys in every scenario.

opinion guy

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Why oh why oh why can't some men accept that some women don't want to have kids? My sister (36) is a case in point. Is happily married and would make a fantastic mother...but doesn't want kids. End of. If it happens accidently, that's another thing but we have a good idea whether we want kids or not by the time we reach 30. It's a dated view to presume that we all want to breed. There really is a move away from the traditional route of marriage and kids. Just you wait and see how it pans out int the future.

Why oh why oh why did you assume I was talking about only women ?

Whatever about biological clocks and all that malarky, what I tihnk is a real pressure on both genders to have kids is when not just a few of their friends are married with kids, but when most of their friends are married with kids a new variable enters in to it - peer pressure. The fact that you no longer see your friends because they are busy with kids. One way to have more in common with your friends again is to have kids. At some point this becomes a real pressure on most people - male or female. Mid thirties usually.

Eve_Dublin

opinion guy wrote: »

Why oh why oh why did you assume I was talking about only women ?

Whatever about biological clocks and all that malarky, what I tihnk is a real pressure on both genders to have kids is when not just a few of their friends are married with kids, but when most of their friends are married with kids a new variable enters in to it - peer pressure. The fact that you no longer see your friends because they are busy with kids. One way to have more in common with your friends again is to have kids. At some point this becomes a real pressure on most people - male or female. Mid thirties usually.

I apologise for the assumption then

Really any couple having kids because of peer pressure should be shot. Surely at that stage you should have the strength of charcter to do what you want to do and not go along with your peers. My sister gets a very hard time from all quarters but I have more respect for her for sticking to her guns and particularly as she lives in a small town and most of her friends are having kids. Can't be easy. I'm seeing more of a backlash against the traditional route amongst friends as well and I think fair play to them.

The Corinthian

fionav3 wrote: »

And there's something just a tad 1950's about thinking that marraige brings security for women but there's nothing in it for men. Probably there's something in it for both parties, otherwise why would people get married?

They don't. More correctly the number of people getting married has been in steady decline for years and part of the reason for this has been attributed to what is known as the marriage strike. Such is the decline that the recent cohabitation bill that was introduced has effectively forced a 'back door marriage' for couples who live together for long enough to deal with this decline.

So if you cohabitate for a few years now and have a child together it is actually more in the man's interests to marry, as he will have all of the same financial responsibilities of a husband thanks to the new law, and a father, thanks to pre-existing legislation, but still not be an automatic guardian to his own child unless married.

Suggesting that women trap men into it because a biological clock is ticking is nonsense!

No one is suggesting that it is the norm or rampant, but it does happen. Pretty much any man I know over 35 will be able to point to one or two examples, so it is certainly not nonsense.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Why oh why oh why can't some men accept that some women don't want to have kids?

Because we all know women who swore blind that they never wanted to have any, well into their thirties, only to make a complete U-turn a few years later.

Eve_Dublin

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because we all know women who swore blind that they never wanted to have any, well into their thirties, only to make a complete U-turn a few years later.

This happens but I'm saying there is most definitely a move among women who really don't want to have children and stick to their gun and it's on the increase. My sister and step-mother to name two. Both of these can't back out now.

The Corinthian

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

This happens but I'm saying there is most definitely a move among women who really don't want to have children and stick to their gun and it's on the increase. My sister and step-mother to name two. Both of these can't back out now.

After a certain age, they can't back out. Until then, they can, have an 'accident' and then suggest that if we (men) didn't want to have a kid, we should have been sterilized.

Given the imbalance of reproductive rights between the genders, you'll understand that blind trust is thin on the ground.

fionav3

And yet again with guys thinking I'll change my mind. :cool: Sorry but I really don't see the appeal of children so its not going to happen.

And like I said already, while I don't doubt there are a few looney ladies out there who would trap men by becoming pregnant, most women would never do it! I take offense that we're all being tarred with the same brush almost.

Wibbs

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Why oh why oh why can't some men accept that some women don't want to have kids? My sister (36) is a case in point. Is happily married and would make a fantastic mother...but doesn't want kids. End of. If it happens accidently, that's another thing but we have a good idea whether we want kids or not by the time we reach 30. It's a dated view to presume that we all want to breed. There really is a move away from the traditional route of marriage and kids. Just you wait and see how it pans out int the future.

I would agree there is a tendency to move away from the marriage and kids model. It's pretty small though. In both genders. Looking around at my mates, the vast majority have kids by 40. Funny enough, in my case anyway, slightly more of the women are kid free.

I think the reason that many men find it hard to accept is if the guy is past his mid 30's he will have heard many many women(and men) swear blind they don't want kids and down the line each and every one of them has done an about turn. I only know two people that didnt. One man, one woman. Currently I can think of one woman I know, who swore blind, no way to kids. Couldnt stand them. This was at 27. Now as 30 passed her by, is beginning to think. "oh maybe I should have them before its too late". She's in a stable if beige relationship, so I'll not be surprised to hear she's pregnant in the next two years. I'll put money it'll not be planned either. She'd be pretty much the pattern of many before her Ive seen up close.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

It happens but really, women like that are not mentally stable in my book. You're going to find your share of looneys in every scenario.

Oh I agree. Like I said, not so many are deliberate. Though I do know two who were and I strongly suspect a third. Most of the time it was either the odds catching up, or sloppiness, though if you were to plot a graph most would be clustered around 30-34. All would be using the pill and nothing else. Funny the ones on the injection type contraception didnt have accidents. So maybe it's the sloppiness. Though the reproductive instinct is very strong. Especially in women(men have more of a sexual need, detached from the results). You hear a lot about women being at their sexual peak in the 30's and it has been explained away as another peak of drive to get pregnant while you can. Ask any player type guy and he will tell you that you have to be extra vigilant if the woman is in her early mid 30's. Of course it depends on the individual and it's not just women. I've known a couple of broody men too, but working the odds, that's how it usually pans out.

Wibbs

The Corinthian wrote: »

They don't. More correctly the number of people getting married has been in steady decline for years and part of the reason for this has been attributed to what is known as the marriage strike. Such is the decline that the recent cohabitation bill that was introduced has effectively forced a 'back door marriage' for couples who live together for long enough to deal with this decline.

So if you cohabitate for a few years now and have a child together it is actually more in the man's interests to marry, as he will have all of the same financial responsibilities of a husband thanks to the new law, and a father, thanks to pre-existing legislation, but still not be an automatic guardian to his own child unless married.

No one is suggesting that it is the norm or rampant, but it does happen. Pretty much any man I know over 35 will be able to point to one or two examples, so it is certainly not nonsense.

I would agree. Marriage is great for both when it works. It's when it doesnt... Now divorce can hit both genders hard, but men get hit harder. Emotionally; four times more divorced men commit suicide than divorced women, yet we hear often enough that divorce is emotionally harder on women. Financially; women can defo find themselves on a serious downturn after a divorce. Left with kids to feed and look after. But that's more usual in the cases where they had few assets as a couple. in the cases where the couple had assets, good jobs etc, then men lose out much much more than women. Very very few women are living in bedsits without their old home and limited access to their children. TBH I can think of at least two men unhappy in their marriages, but who simply can't leave because of what will happen if the do.

opinion guy

fionav3 wrote: »

And yet again with guys thinking I'll change my mind. :cool: Sorry but I really don't see the appeal of children so its not going to happen.

And like I said already, while I don't doubt there are a few looney ladies out there who would trap men by becoming pregnant, most women would never do it! I take offense that we're all being tarred with the same brush almost.

Nobodys tarring you all with the same brush. In fact we all specifically said "not all". So go right ahead and be offended if you wish - thats your choice. It won't change anyones opinion.

Wibbs wrote: »

She's in a stable if beige relationship,

Beige ? Hahaha:D

metrovelvet

Men have no reason to get married anymore. Why would they?

Wibbs

As TC said though it's better for men to marry, if in long term living together arrangements as legally they have more rights if they do. If that wasn't the case I'm sure less would alright.

Otis Driftwood

metrovelvet wrote: »

Men have no reason to get married anymore. Why would they?

Because they want to?

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

As TC said though it's better for men to marry, if in long term living together arrangements as legally they have more rights if they do. If that wasn't the case I'm sure less would alright.

Meh. They have marginally more rights. A cohabitating father with guardianship will have the same paternal rights as a married man.

People make a big stink about this, but ultimately married men are in the same boat.

LegacyUser

I may have had a girlfriend attempt to trap me, I am not sure, I will throw up my story and let you all decide for yourselves.

I was living with a girlfriend, she was foreign and although she was pretty young in her early twenties she had hinted several times that she wanted to get married and have kids very young, this probably was due to the fact her parents got married and had kids while in the early twenties and this was very common where she was from. I told her I was not a getting married quickly person and it would be years before I would consider marriage with her and she seemed to accept that.

As far as sex was concerned I have always been captain careful and have always used a condom. She asked could we try it once without as she has always been on the pill and just wanted to see what it was like without it, I was reluctant as even with the pill I knew it was not 100% or anywhere close but after much assurances from her I decided we could try it just the once without a condom.

The next day I could tell there was something up with her, I asked and she confessed that she was worried as she was only after realising that she had been taking medication to treat a UTI and this apparently stops the pill working so now there was a chance she would get pregnant. I got freaked out and scared but reassured her not to worry as chances are she is not and if it did happen I stand by the baby and would not abandon her, this made her ecstatic and she was no longer worried at all.

Luckily she did not get pregnant and we broke up 6 months after that, when talking to a female friend of mine about pregnancy scares I told her my story and she was shocked, she told me that all women knew that UTI medication stops the pill working and that when she went to the doctor to get prescribed this medication the doctor would have made her clearly aware of this fact so my friend could not believe that my girlfriend could have forgotten this information so it was more likely she lied to me.

While I completely acknowledge my responsibility if she had of gotten pregnant because against my own better judgement I agreed to not use a condom if my girlfriend at the time had knowingly deceived me that the pill was not effective due to the UTI then this is still definitely deplorable behaviour and as far as I am concerned it is the same as having sex with someone when you knowingly have an STI and do not inform them and is a form of sexual assault.

I am not on speaking terms with this ex, and even if I was I would not bother mentioning it to her as she will obviously deny it as a slip of the mind, I have since learned that in less than a year of our breakup she is now engaged to be married so it looks like she will get what she wants as early as she wants.

Obviously I do not attribute this behaviour to all women, this is a very small minority of women who would do this, but just as it is a very small minority of men that rape women, it is still something women have to be aware of and be careful of so all men should be careful that this can happen to them even if it is only a minority of women that would do it.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote: »

Meh. They have marginally more rights. A cohabitating father with guardianship will have the same paternal rights as a married man.

However that guardianship is neither automatic, nor immutable. A married father cannot lose his guardianship. An unmarried father who has gotten guardianship through the court (by agreement or otherwise) can.

Prior to the cohabitation bill, not being married meant that while a man may be financially liable to maintain his child(ren) he was not financially liable to maintain his ex-partner. This difference has now been lost, and thus there are no longer any advantages to being unmarried for a man in a long term relationship, with or without children.

Eve_Dublin

The Corinthian wrote: »

After a certain age, they can't back out. Until then, they can, have an 'accident' and then suggest that if we (men) didn't want to have a kid, we should have been sterilized.

No....that they probably should have worn a condom as well as using The Pill to be sure. The Pill is not 100% guaranteed and men should be aware of that as well (I think some men choose to remain ignorant). Nothing is 100% guaranteed. Doesn't seem very fair that we should fill our body with hormones AND ensure that you guys wear a condom as well. Some of the responsibility has to rest on your shoulders as well. You don't agree?

MagicMarker

The pill and a condom is also not 100% guaranteed.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

No....that they probably should have worn a condom as well as using The Pill to be sure. The Pill is not 100% guaranteed and men should be aware of that as well (I think some men choose to remain ignorant). Nothing is 100% guaranteed. Doesn't seem very fair that we should fill our body with hormones AND ensure that you guys wear a condom as well. Some of the responsibility has to rest on your shoulders as well. You don't agree?

Don't you know women are not to be trusted? They are conniving manipulative creatures who are capable of anything?

Blame the other when you want to avoid responsibility. Oldest and most transparent trick in the book.