Exclusive Bottle Feeding

Nevyn

I think that starting a thread about bottle feeding to then question and "educate" those who respond to is not being honest and does more damage then good.

Like I have said before there is a breastfeeding support thread, you'll find it here and if it's active enough it won't need to be sticked it will be on the front page and if people want to share stories and tips and tricks and ask questions then that's wonderful but I won't have parents ambushed for thier choices under the guise of asking why.

CathyMoran

I did feel scared answering that I did not breastfeed, there is a huge stigma when you do not breastfeed and women who do not or can not feel like failures, or at least I did.

Das Kitty

There is so much guilt around the subject of feeding babies, I felt guilty when I was breastfeeding (I hated him being awake because I would have to feed him and endure agony, not a nice way to think about your child). I felt (and still feel) guilty when I stopped. All I ever wanted was to breastfeed my son and I got loads and loads of support and still it never worked out. It took 3 months before I was brave enough to stop and give James the happy mammy he deserves.

To be honest I think no one should have to justify their choice, and honestly that is what this thread feels like. If I didn't have the choice to stop, chances are I would be so traumatised by now that I wouldn't want another child and my relationship with my son might have been permanently damaged.

All that said I probably will try to breastfeed again with another baby, I doubt I'll continue for as long if we can't get past the initial hurdles though. The lactation consultant thought that I might have a physiological problem with my nipples so I'd definitely get that checked out first.

Nevyn

CathyMoran wrote: »

I did feel scared answering that I did not breastfeed,

No one should feel that about posting in this forum, ever.
It is the exact opposite of the founding ethos of the forum.

CathyMoran

The forum is brilliant, it is just that everywhere there is a stigma against not breast feeding - sorry if I did not make that clear. If you say that you do not breastfeed people in general will be very preechy and give out to you for not doing it.

metrovelvet

CathyMoran wrote: »

The forum is brilliant, it is just that everywhere there is a stigma against not breast feeding - sorry if I did not make that clear. If you say that you do not breastfeed people in general will be very preechy and give out to you for not doing it.

After I just had my baby and I had a really hard time with a lot of things, a friend of mine said about women who dont breastfeed "there really is no excuse for it."

Well, there are plenty. Mine being a baby who lost too much weight and milk that just wouldn't come down for a woman who just had a c section and no support and on her own dealing with all of it.

Some people are just mean.

CathyMoran

metrovelvet wrote: »

After I just had my baby and I had a really hard time with a lot of things, a friend of mine said about women who dont breastfeed "there really is no excuse for it."

Well, there are plenty. Mine being a baby who lost too much weight and milk that just wouldn't come down for a woman who just had a c section and no support and on her own dealing with all of it.

Some people are just mean.

I got it from parents and I had a sister in law who was doing it...people also look at you when you produce a bottle instead of brestfeed...it is horrific. Our son was also too small and born by c-section, he was born around Easter so none of the "lactation consultants" were there and I did not have a clue, I also was recovering from the pregnancy which took a lot out of me and as soon as my husband went back to work I did not have help to pump (it is better of you look at your child while doing it), I would have loved to have done it and if there hopefully is a next time I will go to classes to learn now to do it. I was lucky if I got to eat myself (he cries if I eat, he still does that). Sorry for the rant. I should state that I really love my son, he is a great little boy.

metrovelvet

CathyMoran wrote: »

I got it from parents and I had a sister in law who was doing it...people also look at you when you produce a bottle instead of brestfeed...it is horrific. Our son was also too small and born by c-section, he was born around Easter so none of the "lactation consultants" were there and I did not have a clue, I also was recovering from the pregnancy which took a lot out of me and as soon as my husband went back to work I did not have help to pump (it is better of you look at your child while doing it), I would have loved to have done it and if there hopefully is a next time I will go to classes to learn now to do it. I was lucky if I got to eat myself (he cries if I eat, he still does that). Sorry for the rant. I should state that I really love my son, he is a great little boy.

People can be so insensitive about it. Like you, I hardly had time to eat. My mother said to me "Even cows can give milk."

implausible

Thaedydal wrote: »

women who have made up their mind before birth to bottle feed and not to attempt to breastfeed are not going to be effected by that lack of support.

I beg to differ. The lack of support is one reason why women choose to bottle-feed. That is the point I was trying to get across, in answer to the OP's question. If you bottle-feed, the PHN knows all about it, the doctor checks your baby's weight against formula-fed charts and your sisters, aunts and mother can offer advice and help.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry but it is breastfeeding naziism. We all know its better for the child.

But if its going to make the mother crazy then its not better for the child because all that anxiety is going to get transferred to the child.

I 100% agree - a mother's sanity shouldn't suffer for it and no woman should be forced to do it. But I think the term Naziism is completely ott, it implies not allowing another point of view, forcing people to do things and denying people their rights. Why on earth would this term be used in relation to what is a health issue? Non-smokers aren't referred to as non-smoking Nazis, I've never heard anyone described as a five-a-day Nazi, a driving carefully Nazi. I really resent that term. Breastfeeding women aren't allowed to say how they enjoy it or talk about the benefits for fear of being labelled or making others feel guilty.

CathyMoran wrote: »

I did feel scared answering that I did not breastfeed, there is a huge stigma when you do not breastfeed and women who do not or can not feel like failures, or at least I did.

Cathy, I know your situation and after trying so hard there is no need to feel like a failure. I sincerely hope that nothing I said made you feel that you were.

Das Kitty wrote: »

There is so much guilt around the subject of feeding babies, I felt guilty when I was breastfeeding (I hated him being awake because I would have to feed him and endure agony, not a nice way to think about your child). I felt (and still feel) guilty when I stopped. All I ever wanted was to breastfeed my son and I got loads and loads of support and still it never worked out. It took 3 months before I was brave enough to stop and give James the happy mammy he deserves.

To be honest I think no one should have to justify their choice, and honestly that is what this thread feels like. If I didn't have the choice to stop, chances are I would be so traumatised by now that I wouldn't want another child and my relationship with my son might have been permanently damaged.

All that said I probably will try to breastfeed again with another baby

Again, you tried and are willing to do so again, so what is there to feel guilty about? The lack of support wasn't an issue here. I don't know the OP, but I believe she genuinely wanted to know the reasons for the popularity of bottle-feeding in this country - convenience, stigma against breastfeeding, marketing, health reasons....whatever.

CathyMoran wrote: »

The forum is brilliant, it is just that everywhere there is a stigma against not breast feeding - sorry if I did not make that clear. If you say that you do not breastfeed people in general will be very preechy and give out to you for not doing it.

To be honest, I find the stigma goes the other way - my brothers leave the room when I feed, a neighbour took her child out the other day and very few shops have a place for it. My mother is amazed my baby is gaining weight like a bottle-fed (i.e. "normal") baby, my mother-in-law often suggests topping him up with formula and friends constantly ask me how long I'm going to keep it up, as if it's a diet or something awkward I'm on.

metrovelvet wrote: »

After I just had my baby and I had a really hard time with a lot of things, a friend of mine said about women who dont breastfeed "there really is no excuse for it."

Now, there'sa Nazi! That's just tactless and uncalled for.

I'll finish on this: if a woman makes an educated decision to bottle-feed for lifestyle reasons and is happy with her decision, nobody should be able to make her feel guilty. Likewise, it is illogical to feel guilt if a woman tries, but cannot. Or maybe it's just a female thing - we feel guilty about everything!

CathyMoran

metrovelvet wrote: »

People can be so insensitive about it. Like you, I hardly had time to eat. My mother said to me "Even cows can give milk."

I am so sorry that you went through that too. You really have no time in the first few months at least for anything but your child - they are wonderful and I want more but you will never stop worrying about them or caring for them - it is one of the most fulfilling things that I have ever done though

Nevyn

Like I said there are lots of posters and leaflets publicising breastfeeding and we have threads about it here and there are lots of other sites and forums which have the same and there are support groups out there so anyone who is interested and wants to can learn a lot.

Those who don't want to will get the information and if they choose not to then that is their choice. I am happy to see those who wish to breastfeed being supported but I won't tolerate those who choose not to be condemned for it, or being told they are ignorant.

I was lucky that my Mother encouraged me as she had breastfed 4/5 of us and it was "normal" with in the circles of family and friends. But I know there are intolerant ignorant twits of both sides of topic and extremists never help their causes.

I know mothers who bottle feed and mother's who breastfeed both get people making comments thinking they are entitled to do so cos it's either for the good of the baby(either way) or reflecting that society is obsessed with what we do with our bodies and telling us what we should do with our bodies for our good and the good of others. TBH they can all go suck a lemon, and let mothers and fathers choose what is best for their family.

Swizzles

I breastfed for the first three days..On the day i was due to come home i had not slept the night before as i had a 10lb baby and she wanted to feed constantly..She didnt like the aptimal top up and just wanted the comfort..I was shattered ..I came to the conclusion that baby would benefit from a healthy mom more and aswell as that i was a bottle fed baby and im still alive...I also felt breastfeeding made me more emotional..The guilt i felt afterwards was unbelievable,Mainly due to the media and the breast is best campaign..I have to say i wouldnt judge anyone who chose not to breastfeed as it is natural but not easy...
I had a baby who was extremely keen but unfortunately i didnt want to hear her screams for hours because she was still hungry to me baby benefited from me not being selfish and forcing something that was clearly distressing us both...

Cat Melodeon

Thaedydal wrote: »

Those who don't want to will get the information and if they choose not to then that is their choice. I am happy to see those who wish to breastfeed being supported but I won't tolerate those who choose not to be condemned for it, or being told they are ignorant.

I really don't think anyone anywhere on this thread has condemned anyone or told them they are ignorant, Nazi name-calling aside.

Nevyn

I said it won't be tolerated, I have seen this discussion polarise too many other on line communties, this hasn't been a flash point until now and if everyone keeps in mind the charter and rules of the forum we won't ended up with people pissed off on both sides.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Like I said there are lots of posters and leaflets publicising breastfeeding and we have threads about it here and there are lots of other sites and forums which have the same and there are support groups out there so anyone who is interested and wants to can learn a lot.

Those who don't want to will get the information and if they choose not to then that is their choice. I am happy to see those who wish to breastfeed being supported but I won't tolerate those who choose not to be condemned for it, or being told they are ignorant.

I was lucky that my Mother encouraged me as she had breastfed 4/5 of us and it was "normal" with in the circles of family and friends. But I know there are intolerant ignorant twits of both sides of topic and extremists never help their causes.

I know mothers who bottle feed and mother's who breastfeed both get people making comments thinking they are entitled to do so cos it's either for the good of the baby(either way) or reflecting that society is obsessed with what we do with our bodies and telling us what we should do with our bodies for our good and the good of others. TBH they can all go suck a lemon, and let mothers and fathers choose what is best for their family.

This is absolutely true. Once you're pregnant it's like your body is public property.

What kind of annoys me in this thread, even the pro breastfeeders who with the best of intentions are trying to educate those who bottlefeed, and who say things like "there's no need to feel guillty" is that it is quite patronising. We know breastfeeding is immumilogically better and nutritionally better for the baby. Everybody knows that. I heard nothing but that for the majority of my pregnancy. Shut up already.

It's like if I went on the pregnancy boards and started lecturing them about not drinking milkshakes or eating seafood and to stop smoking.

They know that. They dont need me to tell them.

Ayla

gogo wrote: »

What "value" does the op get out of knowing what/why people feed their babies, or is Ayla representing the HSE now?

This is always a hot topic, but for the life of me I can't understand why. I thought I made it pointedly clear in my posts that I was really just trying to learn about other people's point of view.

It's been said a thousand times, but once more won't hurt. How you feed your child is your choice, and as long as they're thriving & you're happy than all's well. My question purely stemmed from the fact that I can explain several reasons why I *chose* to breastfeed, and I was interested to know of the reasons why other people may *choose* to bottlefeed. Pure & simple. No hidden agendas, no criticism, no opinions.

Through some of the posts I've heard the reasons being: convenience (including sleep) and the opportunity for bonding b/w dad & babe. Are there any other reasons or should we close this thread before everyone gets their noses outta wack?

lonestargirl

One issue that hasn't really been raised yet, probably because it doesn''t affect too many Irish people, is the length of maternity leave. I have no entitlement to paid leave, my employer doesn't have to hold my job for me for more than 12 weeks. I'm very lucky as a PhD student in that one of my supervisors is due 4 weeks before me and the other has 2 kids himself so they are both supportive of me taking a whole semester off. In Ireland if you are self-employed you may have a situation where you are back in work in 4-6 weeks and breastfeeding may not be a practical option.

I was chatting on the phone with my mum the other night and we were discussing breastfeeding. I am planning on doing it for the first few weeks at least, she was warning me not to put too much pressure on myself to be the 'perfect' mother and that there are far worse things I could be doing to my child (she herself breastfed all 3 of us).

As a doctor my husband would like me to try and breastfeed for at least a week but again he doesn't think I should put too much pressure on myself - after all he was bottlefed and he turned out ok!

Chuchu

I've dipped in and out of this thread and thought I 'd throw in my few cents without quoting from other posts but just to give the OP some other answers if that's what she wants...

I decided to bottlefeed from day one long before I ever got pregnant.

I am 120% happy with my decision.

I do not feel guilty.

My husband and my close family (including his mother who breastfed) are 120% happy with the decision, especially as both sets of Grandparents are caring for her since I went back to work and both got to bond with her early on (not to mention my husband.) I have had experience of friends whose husbands felt 'left out' early on, but this is just anecdotal and not why I chose not to breatfeed. I know you can express. This argument would not influnce me as I had already decided not to breatfeed.

I am a bit of a worrier and I was happier knowing how much my baby had consumed and not a guestimate, this was a major factor FOR ME.

But this is what I think is the cruncher for me, I was bottlefed, I am healthy, I have a fantastic relationship with my mother, I did what I AM comfortable with knowing that my mother did a bl**dy good job.

I do not believe that I have altered my child's immune system or capabilities by not breast feeding her, again anacedotal, but two friends of mine's children who were breastfed have had more infections in the first year than mine, coincidence possibliy but there you have it. I don't get sick often and don't belive that my health NOW or when I was younger has anything to do with whether my mother breastfed in the first few months or years of my life or not. Diet after the first year is much more important in terms of raising a healthy child in my mind.

mohawk

CathyMoran wrote: »

I did feel scared answering that I did not breastfeed, there is a huge stigma when you do not breastfeed and women who do not or can not feel like failures, or at least I did.

It goes both ways. I breastfed for 10 months and my family were not one bit supportive about it. I got constant comments about it and I had to go to a seperate room to BF.
I can see how some breastfeeders become militant about it but it causes a backlash. attacking people who choose to bottle feed gets you nowhere it probably makes people even less likely to breastfeed.
We are now in a situation where no matter how you feed your child there are people who don't agree with you and you have to defend yourself. At the end of the day its your choice how to feed you baby you are the parent. If you are happy with your choice then there should be no guilt.

metrovelvet

mohawk wrote: »

It goes both ways. I breastfed for 10 months and my family were not one bit supportive about it. I got constant comments about it and I had to go to a seperate room to BF.
I can see how some breastfeeders become militant about it but it causes a backlash. attacking people who choose to bottle feed gets you nowhere it probably makes people even less likely to breastfeed.
We are now in a situation where no matter how you feed your child there are people who don't agree with you and you have to defend yourself. At the end of the day its your choice how to feed you baby you are the parent. If you are happy with your choice then there should be no guilt.

Because there is still a culture out there which says women are not to be trusted with their own bodies.

CathyMoran

mohawk wrote: »

If you are happy with your choice then there should be no guilt.

One of my problems was that I was not given a choice - I was advised that formula was better as he was so small. There is a history of allergies in my family and I wanted to feed him myself to give him the best chance but because he was so small I was told by the medical staff that this was not the best for him...I am just worried that I may have hurt him in some way by not breastfeeding him...like all mother's I just want what is best for my child, what is best for me is secondary, well at least it is for me.

metrovelvet

CathyMoran wrote: »

One of my problems was that I was not given a choice - I was advised that formula was better as he was so small. There is a history of allergies in my family and I wanted to feed him myself to give him the best chance but because he was so small I was told by the medical staff that this was not the best for him...I am just worried that I may have hurt him in some way by not breastfeeding him...like all mother's I just want what is best for my child, what is best for me is secondary, well at least it is for me.

You DID NOT HURT HIM. Stop judging yourself.

If the medical staff are so concerned then they can set up milk banks.

Das Kitty

Having experienced both sides of the coin I can say there is absolutely no comparison between the stigma for breastfeeding and that for bottle feeding.

When I was breastfeeding yes I felt a little self conscious and there were one or two remarks but I had the knowledge that I was doing the right thing, that doctors, PHN etc agreed that this was the right thing to be doing.

I think part of the reason it took me so long to change over was that no one would tell me that it was OK to do so. All I got was "it's your choice". I asked my (then) GP what to do told her how low I was feeling about it and she basically told me that there was nothing much I could do except keep trying.

It was my own fault really, I had never considered that I would have to bottle feed as I was so determined for breastfeeding to work out and everyone told me that if I persevered it would. I put too much pressure on myself, that is the one big change I would make with a second baby.

I really try not to feel guilty about it but it just seems so ingrained! I do tell myself to cop on when I start feeling it and is getting less so over time. When I see how much he enjoys his bottle it makes me happy.

bourgie

I have started and stopped and deleted replies to this so many times. Why? Because no matter what I say, as someone who is very much pro breastfeeding because of the health benefits and wishes more women would at least try it, it seems like I will insult someone or make someone feel guilty and that is genuinely not my intent.

50% of Irish mothers don't even try to initiate breastfeeding. That is a public health problem and it is not something that health professionals can write off as simply a choice that as a society we can be happy to just roll with. The health implications are too big - and despite what some posters claim, many women don't know the health benefits. Just reading many bf threads shows this. I don't know what % of those women have already tried and not been happy with their previous experiences, but compared with international figures, 50% not even initiating is a really high number. What is going on?

The question as to why so many Irish mothers choose not to try to breastfeed is a really important one. Lack of support has to be a big reason - I have been astounded by the rubbish advice given to friends by GPS and PHNs, it really is disgraceful, but there is a lot more to it than that and to improve rates it is really important that we try to have honest discussions about why women don't want to try.

Cat Melodeon

I was talking to a friend of mine about this today (she's happy for me to post her story here for you Ayla). She has 2 children and bottlefed both of them. She had intended to breastfeed, but stopped on the second day with her first baby and on the first day with her second baby. Her reasons were that on the first, she'd had a very long and complicated labour, was quite traumatised by the experience, was wrecked and simply wasn't able to face into the uncertainties of breastfeeding. In her words, she's a bit of a control freak and really couldn't be dealing with not knowing if the baby was getting enough or if she was doing it right. She also said the fear of failure made her not want to even try, which is certainly something I can identify with. And it was easier to give the baby to her partner and get some uninterrupted sleep.
On the second, external factors within her family caused stress so she preferred to simply go with what she knew.
She did say she felt unable to ask for support from nurses, family or me (we are close friends) as it would be an admission that she couldn't do it right and thus would show herself up as a bad mother (her words not mine).

Another friend who is pregnant on her first said she will not be breastfeeding, the thought of it disgusts her. I asked why, but she said she couldn't really explain, that it just gives her the horrors and although she knows it is natural, it is alien and unnatural to her. She also feels that way about her pregnancy. She has nightmares about parasites and aliens living inside her and finds the whole changing body shape very disturbing. I don't know if it makes any difference, but she was not breastfed herself, is the only girl in a large family of boys, and is the first of her close friends to have a baby. She also thinks I'm a bit weird for feeding my son for so long (he's been off the boob since he was 10.5 months)!

Nevyn

I am pro breastfeeding but I am not pro alienating people.
The best thing those who are pro can do is make sure there is plenty of good information and support here on the forum and to have discussions about breastfeeding with out being militantly anti bottle feeding and hopefully more mothers and mothers to be will read and consider it as more of an option for them.

lonestargirl

bourgie wrote: »

]The health implications are too big - and despite what some posters claim, many women don't know the health benefits. Just reading many bf threads shows this.

I agree that ideally 'breast is best' however saying the 'health implications are too big' is overstating the mark in my opinion. You have to seperate the overall evidence for breastfeeding into the the developed and developing world. The WHO says that "A lack of exclusive breastfeeding during the first six months of life contributes to over a million avoidable child deaths each year". This statement does not apply to children in Ireland, it applies in cases of unsafe drinking water and parent's being unable to afford sufficient formula to feed their children. I'm a scientist, I like to read the studies and yes there are benefits for both mother and child but these benefits have to be weighed up against all the other factors in people's lives. While I agree that those who want to breastfeed should be supported I don't think anyone should be stigmatised for choosing the bottle.

CK2010

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am pro breastfeeding but I am not pro alienating people.
The best thing those who are pro can do is make sure there is plenty of good information and support here on the forum and to have discussions about breastfeeding with out being militantly anti bottle feeding and hopefully more mothers and mothers to be will read and consider it as more of an option for them.

Well said.

I had my child when i was 17, and i was due to start university when my daughter was 4 weeks old (i sat the leaving when pregnant) so i knew that she would need to be bottle fed as she'd be with family members and then starting a creche while i was in college.

this, on top of the fact that i had chronic "morning" sickness throughout the pregnancy so hadn't had a full meal in about 7 or 8 months, and i didnt feel physically capable of putting my body through anything else, i knew i didnt want to breast feed or express milk for her.

i also didnt feel that my milk would be of any benefit considering i wasnt very healthy- you know with not eating for months on end!- maybe this was wrong but i felt that the formula would have more nutrients etc for her. and college would put my body under more stress. it genuinely seemed like the better option.

i got the breast is best lecture every hospital visit, had to sign a form confirming they gave me this info and that i had made an informed decision re breastfeeding. my choice was not to and this was put on my notes... after a 29hour labour which even a more mature woman would feel vulnerable after, i was then asked if i wanted to give breastfeeding a go, i said no i already made it clear that i didnt want to, and the midwife continued to pressure me into trying, it took a stern talking to from my partner to make her accept my decision. i dread to think what they would do to someone without a partner to fight them. i think railroading a woman in that condition into something they had already decided against is morally wrong.

as for whether it was a good decision or if i regret it...im on the fence.

i didnt have sore nipples and all the problems involved with breastfeeding, it may seem trivial, but motherhood mixed with university and sore nipples... :eek: keeping stress to a minimum was important for me to get through it. sounds selfish but it was building a future for us so it was a benefit.

a more trivial issue was that of having my breasts and body to myself! i gave up many a teenage milestone due to the pregnancy (i know that it was entirely self inflicted, for want of a better word) i gave up my dinners for months!, and im glad i didnt have to give up a whole lot of other stuff due to breastfeeding, selfish as it may be! it wasnt my reason for not doing it, just a bonus!

on the other hand, once she went onto solid foods it emerged that she has digestive problems and she has been in and out of hospital and is constantly on medication. and every day i do wonder if it was because i didnt breastfeed, which is not a nice feeling. at all. no matter how much you're told its just one of these things.

plenty of bottle fed babies have no problems and many a breastfed baby does, and vice versa. luck of the draw. at the end of the day- happy mum, happy baby. i dont think mothers should be judged for it.

i do however find it ridiculous when mothers brag about the fact they breastfeed and then proceed to feed their baby crap as they get older! my child may have been bottle fed but she eats more veg than any child i know (mainly because i was lucky enough to get a strange child who adores the stuff! :P not that it does her tummy much good but thats a whole other story.) so a mothers choices do not define her as a mother.

you may disagree with a mother for not breastfeeding but she may look down her nose at you for not burping your baby correctly or giving your kid a bag of crisps, the list of 'bad' parenting senarios goes on and on..

long post sorry! its a touchy subject!

sideswipe

Maybe I'm not qualified to comment as I'm a male, but reading this after recently becoming a parent for the first time really brings it home how judgmental a lot of women can be, you go from being an individual to being a parent and all of a sudden the world and her mother want to drive an opinion down your gob.
The op brings up an obviously divisive issue about other misguided individuals who bottle feed, says she is not judging and then compares it to not taking the advise of not drinking, taking drugs, using a helmet/seatbelt and educating your child!!! I wonder is there a study on breastfeeding at the altitude which must exist at high moral ground!

janmc

metrovelvet wrote: »

a friend of mine said about women who dont breastfeed "there really is no excuse for it."
....
Some people are just mean.

I've had people ask why I don't just give a bottle (if I'm looking tired, or can't make it somewhere etc) so I think people are inconsiderate & insensitive on both sides of the debate to be honest.