Quantifying "Work Experience"

Webmonkey

Hi There,

So I've decided to leave what I've been at here over the last year or more. The work I've been doing was conducted in an academic research centre. I've decided I'd like to give Dublin a go and hopefully get something in the area I passionate about.

So I've fixed up the CV, added the experience I've had the last year and placed it on public viewing on one of the recruitment job sites.

I've received 4 calls today already, and all 4 of them don't seem to recognize what I've been up to the last year here as actual experience, probably because it's not in a commercial environment.

The project I've worked on is a large enterprise one with nearly 10 partners around Europe taking a part of it. It's a highly collaborative project. I ended up doing a lot of the development here and while I left just as a graduate, I was thrown into the deep end and gained a lot of experience and I travelled about 8 times the last year also so to attend meetings and test labs and what not.

Yet all of this doesn't seem to count because it was not in a commercial environment.

I'm just wondering what the thoughts of people here are on that. I find it a small bit unfair myself but, from hearing what recruiters have to say I'm kind of glad I'm leaving here now as I could stay 3 years and still be seen as a graduate!

Another thing that doesn't make sense is using year count in experience as a measure of how good or useful you might be. I believe 5 years experience in say C++ in one company might just be the same as 2 years in another where you giving more responsibility. But I do understand they have to filter people out using this method.

I hope you don't mind me placing this here but I'm applying for software developer roles and this idea of having experience is a big problem for a lot of graduates unfort.

Evil Phil

from hearing what recruiters

Where the calls from recruitment agencies? Cos lets face it, they haven't a clue. And you're right, it's very unfair. Sounds like you've done some excellent work.

Sparks has a couple of excellent blog posts you should read here and here. If I were you I'd look for the companies that do the kind of work you'd be interested in and approach them directly. Linkedin can be useful for finding out who works where.

So I'd hang on, most recruiterment agencies I've talked too were A) looking for the required development language looking for the required development language and C) (most importantly to them) looking for their commission.

Ireland, particuarly Dublin, is full of small, average software-houses who's job descriptions for a web dev consists of:

All the irish job sites wrote:

Exciting oppurtunity with bleeding edge blah blah blah ...
Required:
PHP
CSS/xHTML/HTML web standard compliance
MySQL
Linux Admin Experience
Strong OOP skills
Exposure to Java/C++ a plus, particularly C++ cos that's like really hard and stuff
UML and Design Patterns (which we never use but have to put this here to look good in case a competitor is reading this, or something)
Must be able to work to tight-deadlines (read: 80 hour weeks minimum, kiss having a life goodbye, see point regarding UML and design patterns above)
Rockstars developers only (cos let's face it, cocaine is probably the only way you'll be able to stay awake with these working hours before you inevitably burn-out)
Agile development (which means there's no documentation for the legacy systems you'll be upgrading on your own as all your predecessors left within 6 months. And no, they didn't have any documentation either.)
What the job entails:
Web development

Of course, if you've no huge commitments at the moment then you could always emigrate. There are sunnier places in the world.

Webmonkey

Evil Phil wrote: »

Where the calls from recruitment agencies? Cos lets face it, they haven't a clue. And you're right, it's very unfair. Sounds like you've done some excellent work.

Sparks has a couple of excellent blog posts you should read here and here. If I were you I'd look for the companies that do the kind of work you'd be interested in and approach them directly. Linkedin can be useful for finding out who works where.

So I'd hang on, most recruiterment agencies I've talked too were A) looking for the required development language looking for the required development language and C) (most importantly to them) looking for their commission.

Ireland, particuarly Dublin, is full of small, average software-houses who's job descriptions for a web dev consists of:



Of course, if you've no huge commitments at the moment then you could always emigrate. There are sunnier places in the world.

Thanks for that.

I had a read of Sparks excellent blogs. They were very good. As a matter of fact, I think we have similar interests and funnily enough one company mentioned there is a place I got a call from (through the recruiter agencies though but fingers crossed!)

I'm a little worried about these recruitment agencies alright. They all seem desperately keen and it is indeed because of the commission of what not. One guy said that the average starting salary for graduates is 25k. Now I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, I've already completed 1 year of intensive work in an EU project and gained loads of experience there, hell I've nearly lead the project in certain places and I saved the day in it often, but I've worked on several other projects and done extremely well in everything I've done including academically.

I really don't want to go into a (grad job / treated like they know nothing etc) just because a recruiter doesn't know any better. What i noticed with a lot of the ones that phoned, they hadn't even read my CV?

I think I better step back for a while and try and avoid these guys. They seem very pushy and I'm afraid I'll end up in a crappy grad job doing nothing exciting and underpaid!

Cheers

Tom Dunne

Have a read of the Work/Jobs forum for some valuable insight into the world of Recruitment in Ireland.

Webmonkey

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Have a read of the Work/Jobs forum for some valuable insight into the world of Recruitment in Ireland.

Thanks,

Having a read about there now.

To be honest, the more I read about these recruiters the more I want to avoid them.

I'm scared that I'm underselling myself to them on the phone. They don't read my CV at all and the experience.

I think I should try go direct to companies, need to find a list and send in the CV's I think. I hate been treated as a normal "Graduate" when I've done much more than the average graduate. Sigh...

Evil Phil

That work experience won't come out until you're actually in an interview unless you get to talk to somebody directly on the phone. Agencies won't like you doing that!

I think your experience with recruiters won't actually change as you progress through your career. They are essentially sales people who, in my experience, always go for quantity over quality, in that they'll put forward 100 C.V.s that have simply say C# or what ever the basic language requirement is over putting forward 5 C.V.s for people who have actual experience and/or an interest in working in that company's particular field.

They really are a hindrance to the industry IMO.

Draco

I was told by a recruiter a a couple of years ago that his clients would see the 6 years of me being a sys admin/dev in a college dept. as only being the equivalent of 3 years. I was understandably a bit unimpressed by this and laid out for him why I thought this was wrong. In fairness to him, he took this on board and said he'd be able to use it when pushing my CV. Whether he did or not I can't say but I did end up getting a job through him.

stevenmu

One thing that often gets overlooked in discussions on work experience is that it's not just about coding knowledge and ability, it's also about familiarity with business processes and working a certain type of environment. Rightly or wrongly, I suspect many employers/agencies will view any work done in the academic sector as being 'soft' work. This is pretty unfair and it sounds like the project you worked on was not 'soft' work, but it's likely that you will get tarred with that brush.

What I would suggest is that rather than wait for agencies to come to you, you actively apply for jobs that take your interest, where possible directly to the employers but do it to agencies as well. In that way you can include a cover letter which will give you an opportunity to put your own spin on your experience, and where possible/relevant tailored slightly to the job in question.

Note that I'm not suggesting that you lie in any way, you want to create a story in the mind of the recruiter that is then backed up and reinforced by your CV/references and can be proven in interviews etc. But it should be you creating the story, not the recruiters.

I suspect many agencies look for reasons to talk you down to get you to accept a job more easily rather than holding out for a dream job, they're more interested in the numbers they can turn over than matching candidates with the right jobs.

p

I wouldn't consider a job in an academic environment as not a job.

Perhaps the problem is simply hwo you've talked about it on your CV. Make sure this is put down as a full job in every way. If you've done that, then don't worry, you're just talking to the wrong people.

fergalr

Webmonkey wrote: »

The project I've worked on is a large enterprise one with nearly 10 partners around Europe taking a part of it. It's a highly collaborative project. I ended up doing a lot of the development here and while I left just as a graduate, I was thrown into the deep end and gained a lot of experience and I travelled about 8 times the last year also so to attend meetings and test labs and what not.

Yet all of this doesn't seem to count because it was not in a commercial environment.

"So, Mr. Torvalds, you wrote this Colonel thingy for free? Doesn't count, I'm afraid."

No, don't see that happening.


Look, you know yourself how much you've done. If you've had quality dev experience, learned lots, gotten better at what you do, then you know what that time has been worth.
Put it down on your CV.
Put down few lines outlining what you did, what your responsibilities were, why it was good experience.
Any developer with half a brain that reads your CV won't just write it off.


You have to remember that recruiters are dealing with a lot of different people quickly, and often don't know very much about the technicalities of the areas they are recruiting for. Some of them know absolutely nothing about the technical jobs they are trying to fill, and don't even realise how little they know. Maybe because they are new at recruiting technical positions, and usually recruit bankers, or whatever.
Take what they say with a grain of salt.

Another developer giving you a through technical interview will quickly figure out how much your experience has taught you. They certainly won't write it off as college work when you show them otherwise. These things aren't black and white.

Webmonkey

Thanks to everyone.

I've an interview for a job tomorrow anyways, think it's more a graduate role though. I kinda rushed into this one but we'll see.

Are you obliged to take the job if you are offered it in the interview? or can you take a day or two to think?

fergalr

Webmonkey wrote: »

Thanks to everyone.

I've an interview for a job tomorrow anyways, think it's more a graduate role though. I kinda rushed into this one but we'll see.

If its a small company, they can be fairly flexible about these things.
Tell them about your experience at the interview.
If they are impressed, you might find there's scope to up the salary and responsibility because of your experience. Good candidates are hard to come by, if a small company sees someone they like, they might be able to adapt.

Webmonkey wrote: »

Are you obliged to take the job if you are offered it in the interview? or can you take a day or two to think?

You can usually take time to think.
But, personally, I'd give them a good reason why you need the time.

For instance, if you need to think because the salary is a bit lower than you expected, or the job doesn't sound like it has enough responsibilities, I would tell my potential employer - constructively and nicely - and say you need time to evaluate your options.

A) Its just good communication to be upfront about these things at an interview, to try and make both parties are as happy with the fit as possible.
It gives them a chance to offer a little more money or responsibility, in case they agree with you, and are willing and able to resolve the issues.
C) So that they understand where you are coming from, and don't just think they are generally unenthusiastic about software, work, or the company.

I'd say that as an employer you don't want someone that needs to think about it because they aren't really sure they want to get a job, or dont like what the company does. You really don't want someone that eventually comes on board, and is 'meh' about the position, so just goes through the motions.

But you don't mind if, for example, they have to weigh up several different career options before deciding, and consider the offer carefully. That's a sign they are a professional, and properly weigh their options before committing to one.

So, unless you desperately need the job, if you need the time, take the time to think about it, and try communicate that its not because you don't like the idea of the company or job.

Webmonkey

Thank you fergalr. That is very good advice.

It is far from a small company but it's in a sector I don't know *anything* about and that kind of scares me a little.

However the main problem is, I think it's all a bit rushed and I haven't given it enough time. I have other potential interviews also and I'm just waiting to hear back from these companies/agencies. These positions would be more attractive than the one I'm going for tomorrow.

I'm a disaster when it comes to making decisions