Bioshock Infinite

C14N

I wouldn't normally be a fan of DLC but the one for this game felt worth it. I remember a lot of noise being made about it being short for the price when it came out but that didn't bother me, it felt like it was the right length it needed to be.

noodler

C14N wrote: »

I wouldn't normally be a fan of DLC but the one for this game felt worth it. I remember a lot of noise being made about it being short for the price when it came out but that didn't bother me, it felt like it was the right length it needed to be.

I think tis worth pointing out that part 2 was a good bit longer than part 1.

K.O.Kiki

[necro]

Never realised how much was cut from the original vision.

Captain Chaos

Wow, such a shame all that was cut out.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Wow, such a shame all that was cut out.

Kind of reminds of Colonial Marines \ Watch Dogs \ No Mans Sky etc..

Everybody blindsided with previews and the finished product is a srtipped down version

Limitations of the x360 and PS3 at the time i suspect

SeantheMan

Not sure I would have liked it much more.
Still have to rate it as one of the most average games of that year.....barely used any of the upgrades/plasmids.
I remember just being able to use the same one constantly.


But just has me thinking now, do you think at that stage in the game's development Comstock was a different person/character.....and then they did a testing and review on it...and someone chimed in
"there's no real twist at the end...like in Bioshock 1.."
and his mate said "...how about...YOU are the bad guy !!"
"but Comstock is the bad guy no ? "
"Yeah...but YOU are Comstock !!"
"Wait..what...how could we do that ? "
"Alternate universes and stuff...not really sure"
Ken Levine : "Yes...I love it, scrap these ideas, get to work on that convoluted mess right now !!"

noodler

SeantheMan wrote: »

Not sure I would have liked it much more.
Still have to rate it as one of the most average games of that year.....barely used any of the upgrades/plasmids.
I remember just being able to use the same one constantly.


But just has me thinking now, do you think at that stage in the game's development Comstock was a different person/character.....and then they did a testing and review on it...and someone chimed in
"there's no real twist at the end...like in Bioshock 1.."
and his mate said "...how about...YOU are the bad guy !!"
"but Comstock is the bad guy no ? "
"Yeah...but YOU are Comstock !!"
"Wait..what...how could we do that ? "
"Alternate universes and stuff...not really sure"
Ken Levine : "Yes...I love it, scrap these ideas, get to work on that convoluted mess right now !!"

Each to their own.

I think the game is brilliant. I'll.grant you the gameplay limitations, but the story is brilliant. Voice acting, characters, setting, back story - beautiful.

Its the most satisfying ending in a videogame I have ever experienced I think.

gizmo

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Kind of reminds of Colonial Marines \ Watch Dogs \ No Mans Sky etc..

Everybody blindsided with previews and the finished product is a srtipped down version

Limitations of the x360 and PS3 at the time i suspect

Technical limitations but also a combination of time/budget limitations and design changes. With development cycles being so much longer in the couple of generations and the desire for publishers to release, and indeed fans to consume, work in progress footage, the chances of us seeing more "cut" content increases. The Bioshock series, even from the first iteration, is a great example of this, with its original settings having more in common with the original Far Cry than the dystopian underwater setting of Rapture we eventually got.

Kirby

SeantheMan wrote: »

Not sure I would have liked it much more.
Still have to rate it as one of the most average games of that year.....barely used any of the upgrades/plasmids.
I remember just being able to use the same one constantly.


But just has me thinking now, do you think at that stage in the game's development Comstock was a different person/character.....and then they did a testing and review on it...and someone chimed in
"there's no real twist at the end...like in Bioshock 1.."
and his mate said "...how about...YOU are the bad guy !!"
"but Comstock is the bad guy no ? "
"Yeah...but YOU are Comstock !!"
"Wait..what...how could we do that ? "
"Alternate universes and stuff...not really sure"
Ken Levine : "Yes...I love it, scrap these ideas, get to work on that convoluted mess right now !!"

Literally every piece of exposition that surrounds booker is related to the fact that he is comstock and Elizabeth is your daughter. It's right in your face from the very first minute, you just dont notice it the first time. Ten minutes in and the game is literally singing it at you. "God only knows what I'd be without you......". It's even a little on the nose at points and yet some people still dont see it.

It's much more prevalent than "Would you kindly?" Your "there is no twist! We better make one" theory couldn't possibly be true because changes made last minute are clunky and dont flow through the entire story the way it does in Infinite.

I can understand people not loving the gunplay and the gameplay loops....but I just can't fathom how people can't appreciate the story and characters in this. It's a cut above nearly every story driven game out there.

When I see people hate on this and then go on to wax lyrical about the writing in some random JRPG or the likes of Metal Gear, it makes me want to vomit.

SeantheMan

Kirby wrote: »

Literally every piece of exposition that surrounds booker is related to the fact that he is comstock and Elizabeth is your daughter. It's right in your face from the very first minute, you just dont notice it the first time. Ten minutes in and the game is literally singing it at you. "God only knows what I'd be without you......". It's even a little on the nose at points and yet some people still dont see it.

It's much more prevalent than "Would you kindly?" Your "there is no twist! We better make one" theory couldn't possibly be true because changes made last minute are clunky and dont flow through the entire story the way it does in Infinite.

I can understand people not loving the gunplay and the gameplay loops....but I just can't fathom how people can't appreciate the story and characters in this. It's a cut above nearly every story driven game out there.

When I see people hate on this and then go on to wax lyrical about the writing in some random JRPG or the likes of Metal Gear, it makes me want to vomit.

I was referring to the video above, which was early in the development stage and pieces that got cut. I was thinking maybe the story was different then, and joking about it. The Comstock story is crap though,.....'a cut above nearly every story game out there' .....way different strokes for different folks on this one :P

johnny_ultimate

gizmo wrote: »

Technical limitations but also a combination of time/budget limitations and design changes. With development cycles being so much longer in the couple of generations and the desire for publishers to release, and indeed fans to consume, work in progress footage, the chances of us seeing more "cut" content increases. The Bioshock series, even from the first iteration, is a great example of this, with its original settings having more in common with the original Far Cry than the dystopian underwater setting of Rapture we eventually got.

This a real concern, and one that's pretty to unique to games as a medium. It's crazy to think developers are often required to produce polished, substantial gameplay clips of works in progress upwards of several years before release. Doubly problematic when games as a medium are significantly more susceptible to change - technological and content wise - during the creation process than other mediums (absolutely films can alter significantly in editing, but within a far more limited purview). I'm sure there's benefits to creating a polished 'proof of concept' demo along the development process, but I'm not convinced players benefit when it's shown in public.

Despite its IMO eventual failure as a game, Fallout 4 was at least marketed so that footage was released late and heavily representative of the final game. Think everybody - players, developers and probably even publishers - would benefit from far later reveals like that: they'd still have months to 'sell' their game before release. These years-long build-ups are just too prolonged, and surely an intense short-term marketing plan would pay as many dividends as a trickle-stream long term one. If that Red Dead Redemption 2 trailer came with a 'December 2016' release date at the end, customers would lose their ****! Although I'm still looking forward to some brave published releasing a major title without any marketing at all as an experiment (Valve, maybe?)

I should of course add that the game is somewhat different for independent developers, given their sometimes more unavoidable reliance on early interest.

Retr0gamer

Kirby wrote: »

Literally every piece of exposition that surrounds booker is related to the fact that he is comstock and Elizabeth is your daughter. It's right in your face from the very first minute, you just dont notice it the first time. Ten minutes in and the game is literally singing it at you. "God only knows what I'd be without you......". It's even a little on the nose at points and yet some people still dont see it.

It's much more prevalent than "Would you kindly?" Your "there is no twist! We better make one" theory couldn't possibly be true because changes made last minute are clunky and dont flow through the entire story the way it does in Infinite.

I can understand people not loving the gunplay and the gameplay loops....but I just can't fathom how people can't appreciate the story and characters in this. It's a cut above nearly every story driven game out there.

When I see people hate on this and then go on to wax lyrical about the writing in some random JRPG or the likes of Metal Gear, it makes me want to vomit.

At the end of the day no matter how much they set it up all it is is a twist, a M Night Shyamalan twist. While the twist in Bioshock actually has a purpose and says something about the players role in videogames in Inifinte it changes nothing, it's just there as shock value.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

At the end of the day no matter how much they set it up all it is is a twist, a M Night Shyamalan twist. While the twist in Bioshock actually has a purpose and says something about the players role in videogames in Inifinte it changes nothing, it's just there as shock value.

That doesn't make sense.

How can the twist, integral to every facet of the story as it is, have "purpose" and be "just there as shock value" at the same time?

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

That doesn't make sense.

How can the twist, integral to every facet of the story as it is, have "purpose" and be "just there as shock value" at the same time?

Well if you can tell me why it's so important other than 'shock, you were the bad guy all along' then I might change my mind.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well if you can tell me why it's so important other than 'shock, you were the bad guy all along' then I might change my mind.

I'm pointing out the contradiction in your post.

Generic Dreadhead

I honestly thought the ending for Infinite was a load of ole horses**t.

It was a whole time travel, alternative universe, "i'm your father, and my own father, or something", tear in time continuum, I'm actually the bad guy rubbish.

I had to actually google it to work out wtf I had just seen.

Now in saying that, I am not an exceptionally smart person or astute observer. I knew something was up, I had a feeling there was going to be a "Twist" since there was so much mystery and stuff.

I think it's fine for me to have not liked it just as much as it is for other players to have played it and enjoyed the ending.

Each to their own. I though it was FAR too convoluted for me

Kirby

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well if you can tell me why it's so important other than 'shock, you were the bad guy all along' then I might change my mind.

Because you weren't "The bad guy all along". You were the guy that rejected the baptism, you rejected the notion that you could be wiped clean of your sins at Wounded Knee. You were the guy that drank and gambled and eventually sold your daughter to wipe away the debt you had created.

Only you sold your daughter to the version of you from another universe who did go through the baptism. Who absolved himself of all sins. Who created this city in the clouds on the back of a scientific genius. Who realizing that the machine that made this possible, also made him sterile and thus want to get "his" child another way.

It all ties in together and summarizing it into "You were the bad guy all along!" is either demonstrating you didn't understand it(yes, i went there), or that you did get it but are being purposely obtuse and facetious about it.

People not liking stuff is fine. Strokes and folks. But you can't objectively call something "bad" when it is not. I don't like the new Ferrari but I can see that it is objectively a good car.

maximoose

noodler wrote: »

I'm pointing out the contradiction in your post.

I think you may have misread

While the twist in Bioshock actually has a purpose and says something about the players role in videogames in Inifinte it changes nothing, it's just there as shock value.

Original Bioshock good, Infinite bad.

recyclops

Just my two cents on the whole situation

i am off the opinion levine had the DLC ready to go from the get go for infinite and when you take the story as a complete circle the narratives all fit in fairly well.

Retr0gamer

Kirby wrote: »

Because you weren't "The bad guy all along". You were the guy that rejected the baptism, you rejected the notion that you could be wiped clean of your sins at Wounded Knee. You were the guy that drank and gambled and eventually sold your daughter to wipe away the debt you had created.

Only you sold your daughter to the version of you from another universe who did go through the baptism. Who absolved himself of all sins. Who created this city in the clouds on the back of a scientific genius. Who realizing that the machine that made this possible, also made him sterile and thus want to get "his" child another way.

It all ties in together and summarizing it into "You were the bad guy all along!" is either demonstrating you didn't understand it(yes, i went there), or that you did get it but are being purposely obtuse and facetious about it.

People not liking stuff is fine. Strokes and folks. But you can't objectively call something "bad" when it is not. I don't like the new Ferrari but I can see that it is objectively a good car.

Well I got all that and sure it's great it all makes ensue in the long run but I just find it convoluted with no actual pay off. At the end of it all I just didn't care about the Comstock or Brooker character and that is where the the writing failed for me. Their whole arcs didn't bring them anywhere I actually cared about.

It just reeks of something like metal gear solid 4 ( although that was just orders of magnitude bad). Everything is nicely tied up and makes sense but to what end? Just having a convoluted arc that makes sense at the end isn't good writing unless it says something the person experiencing it cares about.

The only other big theme in the game was the racism/class struggle that I felt was handled poorly.

noodler

maximoose wrote: »

I think you may have misread



Original Bioshock good, Infinite bad.

I did, cheers.

Still though, infinite ending is miles better.

TerrorFirmer

I have to agree that Infinite's ending did zilch for me. I found it convoluted for the sake of it, presumably due to a wish to emulate the genuinely jaw-dropping shock that came with the revelation of the original Bioshock.

Infinite was an OK to very decent game in general, but the characters were largely lost on me and I found it difficult to buy into them, unlike the first two games. I certainly wouldn't say any element of it was bad exactly but for me it's just not a very memorable game, whereas the original is nothing short of a masterpiece.

J. Marston

Wonder what they'll do with the next game? I thought the entire thing was finished but curiosity made me google "Bioshock 4" after finishing Infinite again.

Irrational Games are done with the franchise but apparently 2K Marin are working on the new game.

Generic Dreadhead

Kirby wrote: »

......You were the guy that drank and gambled and eventually sold your daughter to wipe away the debt you had created.

Only you sold your daughter to the version of you from another universe who did go through the baptism......

Yup, this, ya see this right here? This is where I start mentally checking out mentally in a big way.

noodler

Cormac... wrote: »

Yup, this, ya see this right here? This is where I start mentally checking out mentally in a big way.

Underwater cities?

Superpowers?

Hypnosis that lasts 30 years?

Monsters?

All OK.

But this is where you draw the line?

I standbye it anyway. A masterpiece of a story that tops the original, better protagonists, an even better world and most importantly, it was less reliant on the single reveal (original story kind of went to sh1te after the reveal).

I can't remember the last time I finished a game that ended with something as genuinely thought provoking. I had to play through it again, get the voxaphones, notice the nods that were there.all along etc.

I completely agree on the gameplay and even the middle section of the game bit overall I felt it was an amazing story with great characters in a fabulous setting that was executed brilliantly.

Generic Dreadhead

Yup, that's where I draw the line.

It's almost like we have different opinions :P

Kirby

Cormac... wrote: »

Yup, this, ya see this right here? This is where I start mentally checking out mentally in a big way.

Cormac... wrote: »

Yup, that's where I draw the line.

It's almost like we have different opinions :P

Which is fine. But the idea of multiple versions of yourself, multiple universes is a pretty big part of science fiction.

Some people appreciate it, others don't. Thats all gravy. Nobody would argue with you on that.