You are the ref

JimsAlterEgo

Had an idea to get a discussion going on the weekly guardian "you are the ref"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/13/you-are-the-ref-trevillion


In summary, as text is in the image
1. Defenders blocking penno takers run but are standing outside the D
2. Manager says his team (3-0 Down) can't return for 2nd half as have food
poisoning
3. Defender is fouled in pen area but picks up ball before whistle has been blown

My thoughts

1. Defenders are ok once they are outside the D

2. Abandon the game but award the game to the other team

3. Free out as you have to punish the first infringment

gimmick

1. Taker should be allowed a clear run up.
2. Independent doctor to seek proof
3. Penalty.

lordgoat

I'd agree with the OP's three answers!

Mitch Connor

gimmick wrote: »

1. Taker should be allowed a clear run up.
2. Independent doctor to seek proof
3. Penalty.

1. agreed.
2. 7 players is the minimum required to play, so send the 7 out. if they try to get players sent off etc, abandon the game and award the game to the winning side.
3. Free out - if it is simply a case that there hasn't been enough time to signal the free out (and that was the first call) then that is the call to make.

JimsAlterEgo

LOL, first answer is opposite of all mine

Do we have any official refs in the SF?

JimsAlterEgo

Mitch Connor wrote: »

2. 7 players is the minimum required to play, so send the 7 out. if they try to get players sent off etc, abandon the game and award the game to the winning side.

can't get 7 out is the situation

Mitch Connor

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

can't get 7 out is the situation

ah right - misread that.

in that case.....

still award the game to the side currently winning. Would interpret this as the opposition refusing to take to the field, so they lose by default. If the governing body want to look into it further and award a replay so be it, but my decision as ref would be to call the game off and award the 3-0 victory to the winning side.

pickarooney

1. Interpret the defenders refusal to move as gamesmanship and ask them to move out of the way. (or tell the penalty taker to cop on; he's not Hot-shot Hamish)

2. Tell them they have 5 minutes to get out on the pitich - food poisoning doesn't jsut come on like that in 5+ people simultaneously. Failing that, call the match off, award it to the team who's winning (I'm not sure it's actually the ref's job to award the match one way or the other?)

3. Free out and book the defender for handball


Great idea for a thread, BTW

Jax Teller

1 defenders are ok once they are outside
2 abandon game score staying the same
3 free out + yellow to defender for handball

Nailz

1. The defenders aren't doing anything wrong, tell the penalty taker he's going to have to deal with it.

2. Tell them they're going to have to prove that the sickness is genuine, preferably with an independant doctor. If the food poisoning is genuine, abondon game, awarding it to the opposition 3-0. If not, tell them to cop themselves on, maybe even reporting them with conspiracy to corrupt the game.

3. Free out, if the initiate challenge was a foul, therefore the handball shouldn't be punished.

sneakyST

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

1. Defenders blocking penno takers run but are standing outside the D
2. Manager says his team (3-0 Down) can't return for 2nd half as have food
poisoning
3. Defender is fouled in pen area but picks up ball before whistle has been blown

1. Law 14 states the penalty kicker must be properly identified. In this case, it may be unclear to the referee and goalkeeper who the kicker is, so this is reason enough to instruct the kicker to move within reasonable distance. Defenders are doing nothing wrong here.

2. Abandon game and report to authorities (no powers to award game)

3. Free kick, no other action required.

gimmick

Just on number 3. How often has it happened outside the box where a fella gets fouled and grabs the ball before the ref blows, and the ref gives a free against him?

I have seen it plenty. Surely the same principle applies in the penalty area?

IvySlayer

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

LOL, first answer is opposite of all mine

Do we have any official refs in the SF?

PM Des!

sneakyST

IvySlayer wrote: »

PM Des!

or me

Sabre0001

gimmick wrote: »

Just on number 3. How often has it happened outside the box where a fella gets fouled and grabs the ball before the ref blows, and the ref gives a free against him?

I have seen it plenty. Surely the same principle applies in the penalty area?

I think it's usually a case of the player falls over, assumes that a free will be given and grabs the ball. The ref has seen nothing wrong with the challenge which makes it a handball.

UpTheSlashers

1. I dont see any infringement

2. There must be some sort of regulations in place for this sort of incident. I doubt a decision could be made at my discretion.

3. Penalty

witnessmenow

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

1. I dont see any infringement

2. There must be some sort of regulations in place for this sort of incident. I doubt a decision could be made at my discretion.

3. Penalty

To those that send penalty for number 3, could you explain your reasoning? The events as i read them:

Clear foul on defender

Defender picks up ball before you blow the whistle

Mitch Connor

witnessmenow wrote: »

To those that send penalty for number 3, could you explain your reasoning? The events as i read them:

Clear foul on defender

Defender picks up ball before you blow the whistle

The bit in bold is key for me. Implies the ref was giving the foul on the defender - what happens after that (in terms of play being restarted) is unimportant imo.

Fromvert

1. Peno taker just has to deal with it.
2. Award the game 3-0 to the winning team.
3. Free out.

keane2097

What the fcuk are people on about trying to give a penalty for in the last one? Just ignore the first foul for no reason

homerjay2005

i have done dome reffing in the past underage and am doing the qualification course now in the fai to move up to senior.

here is what i would do and i would believe these would be correct.

1 - in the interest of good sporting behaviour, I would ask the players to move. Its the same for example as giving the ball back after an injury, calling your name etc etc, there are many unwritten practices that fall under good sporting behaviour and this would be one of them.

2 - advise that manager that if 7 players dont take the field, that the game cannot continue, i would be recommending to the association involved that the game be awarded to the other team. I would also advise that they would have a right to appeal and all further actions to be taking up with the association. in the interests of insurance and health claims, i would also expect to include in my report, a detailed opinion of each player who they claimed to be sick and whether or not i believed it to be the case.

3 - it is a free out, 100%. no questions there, you award the first foul.

IvySlayer

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i have done dome reffing in the past underage and am doing the qualification course now in the fai to move up to senior.

here is what i would do and i would believe these would be correct.

1 - in the interest of good sporting behaviour, I would ask the players to move. Its the same for example as giving the ball back after an injury, calling your name etc etc, there are many unwritten practices that fall under good sporting behaviour and this would be one of them.

2 - advise that manager that if 7 players dont take the field, that the game cannot continue, i would be recommending to the association involved that the game be awarded to the other team. I would also advise that they would have a right to appeal and all further actions to be taking up with the association. in the interests of insurance and health claims, i would also expect to include in my report, a detailed opinion of each player who they claimed to be sick and whether or not i believed it to be the case.

3 - it is a free out, 100%. no questions there, you award the first foul.

Would you not book the defender for picking it up before you blew your whistle and award the first foul? It's something I hate in the modern game. Falling over and then clutching the ball.

sneakyST

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i have done dome reffing in the past underage and am doing the qualification course now in the fai to move up to senior.

2....................... whether or not i believed it to be the case.

Fair play homerjay for taking it up...

point number two though you cant say if you believe they are sick or not as that is for a doctor, you can only report the facts to the League/association.

homerjay2005

IvySlayer wrote: »

Would you not book the defender for picking it up before you blew your whistle and award the first foul? It's something I hate in the modern game. Falling over and then clutching the ball.

it is a huge risk to take and i have seen it happen recently where a lad handled the ball, but the ref then gave a free against him. as a player, you should always play to the whistle and never stop playing until the ref does it.

thing here is, this post says it is a clear foul. you could award a booking (like for example kicking the ball away after a free is awarded) in the interest of unsporting behaviour, but youd want to be an awful p*ick of a ref to do that and its not within the spirit of the game. so no, its not a booking.

sneakyST wrote: »

point number two though you cant say if you believe they are sick or not as that is for a doctor, you can only report the facts to the League/association.

no, you can give your opinion and it is up to the league to adapt that opinion then, which they normally would. for example, you can book a player for something like dissent, that another ref would accept. whether you could be a stubborn c*nt of a ref, or a lad who has huge personal tolerance for back chat and accepts it, is not fact, is opinion. there are only so many facts that happen in games, the rest is based on the refs view or interpretation of the rules.

or how about as it says above, that you suspect they are trying to get a replay. you see a player laughing and joking in the background and then acting sick minutes later or you see the players and they are no more sick than you are. you can say that in report.

anyway, we are going too deep here. i would abandon the game if 7 players were not present, simple as that and the league would make the final decision, which is based on my match report. lets face it, your not going to call a doctor to a pitch up in the wicklow mountains at 10.30 on a sunday morning in the leinster junior shield just to see if lads are sick. BUT, due to insurance rules, you have to mention each player in the match report and the injuries reported to you, in the event of bogus claims.

28064212

IvySlayer wrote: »

Would you not book the defender for picking it up before you blew your whistle and award the first foul? It's something I hate in the modern game. Falling over and then clutching the ball.

No. The defender is making an assumption that there will be a free. It's a pretty risky thing to do (especially in the box), but if he's right, he shouldn't be penalised for it, if he's wrong, he should be

sneakyST

homerjay2005 wrote: »

no, you can give your opinion and it is up to the league to adapt that opinion then, which they normally would. for example, you can book a player for something like dissent, that another ref would accept. whether you could be a stubborn c*nt of a ref, or a lad who has huge personal tolerance for back chat and accepts it, is not fact, is opinion. there are only so many facts that happen in games, the rest is based on the refs view or interpretation of the rules

Dont get mixed up between opinion and tolerance levels, two completely different things,

or how about as it says above, that you suspect they are trying to get a replay. you see a player laughing and joking in the background and then acting sick minutes later or you see the players and they are no more sick than you are. you can say that in report.

The facts above are that they were laughing and joking. The disciplinary panel may then ask you for your opinion in the hearing, but in the report you need to state the facts only.
Simple example, red card for a head butt, players nose is bleeding, you can state that in the report but you cannot go as far to say the nose is broken.
Believe me I've been there and done more red card reports than you can shake a stick at both as a referee and assistant

pickarooney

homerjay2005 wrote: »

anyway, we are going too deep here. i would abandon the game if 7 players were not present, simple as that and the league would make the final decision, which is based on my match report. lets face it, your not going to call a doctor to a pitch up in the wicklow mountains at 10.30 on a sunday morning in the leinster junior shield just to see if lads are sick. BUT, due to insurance rules, you have to mention each player in the match report and the injuries reported to you, in the event of bogus claims.

The question relates to a Champions League knockout game though so there would surely be medical experts available and replaying such a fixture could be a major deal, not to mention 50,000 annoyed fans who only get 45 minutes of a one-sided game for their troubles.

tolosenc

1. There's nothing in the rules that says the two players can't stand there. But perhaps you might want to warn them that any attempt to deliberately obstruct or trip the penalty taker will be viewed as unsporting behaviour and punished by at least a yellow card (red if tripping).
2. You can't referee based on suspicions. If the manager cannot field seven players then the match must be abandoned. Report everything to the authorities after the match and let them decide the outcome.
3. Deal with the incidents in order. Firstly if it was a foul award a free kick to the defending team. Players pick the ball up all the time, so if I was feeling lenient I would warn the player to play to the whistle and not do it again, if not give him a yellow card for deliberate handball, but either way restart play with a foul to the defending team.

From that page. +1

Here's the archive of them.

Boskowski

Penalty taker just has to remain in the box/semi-circle. That's what the thing is there for isn't it; to be clear of opponents for a penalty kick. If he want to extend his run-in outside that area he'll have to deal with players possibly being in the way. Hell, I mean what if he choses to extend his run in to the middle of the park?

Not 7 players on the pitch, game abandoned, opponents win by what result I don't know.

Free out but a warning to the player in question that he mustn't pre-empt the referees decision.

That_Guy

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

LOL, first answer is opposite of all mine

Do we have any official refs in the SF?

I think Des does/did refeering.

UpTheSlashers

witnessmenow wrote: »

To those that send penalty for number 3, could you explain your reasoning? The events as i read them:

Clear foul on defender

Defender picks up ball before you blow the whistle

I will admit that I do not know the specifics of the rule but the reason for my decision (penalty) is that the game has not been stopped and the defender has no right to handle the ball

Reganio 2

homerjay2005 wrote: »

3 - it is a free out, 100%. no questions there, you award the first foul.

I have done the reffing for FAI as well and doesn't it say that you award the bigger foul if you will. My 1st reaction to the 3rd one was free out as well but since its in the box the major foul would be a penalty were as a minor foul would be the free out.

Like if someone slides in and its a blatant yellow card, but then he gets up and punches the other guy in the face. You award the red card cause its the major foul but technically the yellow is the 1st foul.

I like these things as its ref interpretation their is no right or wrong answer.

homerjay2005

Reganio 2 wrote: »

I have done the reffing for FAI as well and doesn't it say that you award the bigger foul if you will. My 1st reaction to the 3rd one was free out as well but since its in the box the major foul would be a penalty were as a minor foul would be the free out.

Like if someone slides in and its a blatant yellow card, but then he gets up and punches the other guy in the face. You award the red card cause its the major foul but technically the yellow is the 1st foul.

I like these things as its ref interpretation their is no right or wrong answer.

ah jaysus, your confusing things now and blowing things way over board!! thats a totally seperate issue and was not part of the question above. you award the first foul and thats it!

Reganio 2

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ah jaysus, your confusing things now and blowing things way over board!! thats a totally seperate issue and was not part of the question above. you award the first foul and thats it!

Calm down.

But isn't that the rule? I know its a bit extreme and in the situation you would just give the free out as you only have a second to think but if you think about it, it should be a penalty and a red card as well?

NTMK

1. Kicker has to deal with it
2. abandon game and notify authorities
3. free out. 1st foul is the one punished

sneakyST

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Calm down.

But isn't that the rule? I know its a bit extreme and in the situation you would just give the free out as you only have a second to think but if you think about it, it should be a penalty and a red card as well?

No as you can't nullify the original offence. If the handball doesn't happen and the defender gets up and punches the attacker, it's still a free out and a red card for the defender.
Only when offences occur at the same time do you punish the most serious offence

28064212

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Calm down.

But isn't that the rule? I know its a bit extreme and in the situation you would just give the free out as you only have a second to think but if you think about it, it should be a penalty and a red card as well?

I very much doubt it's the rule. It would be the equivalent of awarding a goal scored after a foul, but before the ref blows the whistle. The only occasion where it could be relevant is where the team commits a foul, the ref plays advantage, and the same team commits another foul. If the other team had committed the second foul, play would be brought back for the first foul.

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Like if someone slides in and its a blatant yellow card, but then he gets up and punches the other guy in the face. You award the red card cause its the major foul but technically the yellow is the 1st foul.

Do you mean the same person slides in and punches, or one slides in, the other punches? In the former, the correct action would be to actually book him, and then give him a straight red. In the latter case, the correct action would be to book the slider, give the free against him, and send the puncher off (i.e., the puncher's team would have a free). The reason for that is that violent conduct is punishable regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. If it's out of play,

Reganio 2 wrote: »

I like these things as its ref interpretation their is no right or wrong answer.

Actually, there's exactly one right answer, this stuff is covered in the rules

Reganio 2

Official answers are in for those of you wondering.

1) The defenders are right: they can stand where they want within the requirements of the penalty kick law. If the taker wants an unusually long run-up that's fine, but he'll have to avoid the defenders on the way to the ball. If, though, one of the defenders moves to deter the kicker, book him for unsporting behaviour. Thanks to Rosie Borcherds.
2) You cannot base your judgments on hunches or suspicions. So, after liaising with the Uefa match delegate and informing stadium security, abandon the game – a match cannot restart with fewer than seven players. You must then file a full report to Uefa, who will decide on whether to order a replay, whether the score stands, or some other outcome. Thanks to Danny Lyons.
3) Every school player is told to "play to the whistle" – the defender would have been sensible to remember that. But in this case he has got away with pre-empting your whistle: you must award a direct free-kick to the defender for the first offence – the trip by the striker. Jon Stump wins the shirt.

ShooterSF

Number 3 in this one may raise some eyebrows. Definitely shocked me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/20/you-are-the-ref-trevillion

Mitch Connor

ShooterSF wrote: »

Number 3 in this one may raise some eyebrows. Definitely shocked me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/20/you-are-the-ref-trevillion

i was wrong on all three!

Reganio 2

I was wrong on the 1st one, the 3rd one makes sense its accidental, but I am sure if a lot are being honest on the 1st one, they would send off the guy that handballed it 1st. As its punish the 1st offense according to most on here.

28064212

Reganio 2 wrote: »

I was wrong on the 1st one, the 3rd one makes sense its accidental, but I am sure if a lot are being honest on the 1st one, they would send off the guy that handballed it 1st. As its punish the 1st offense according to most on here.

Is that referring to the third scenario in the OP? Completely different situation, in the latter case, it's essentially considered "playing advantage". In the former, there is no advantage gained by the team that should be awarded the original free

Reganio 2

Yeah, but I would have sent off the 1st handballer, but I guess thinking about it it makes sense

pickarooney

Does a deliberate handball have to be a goal-denying gesture to warrant a red? I'm pretty sure I've seen keepers red-carded for deliberate handball outside the area.

Reganio 2

pickarooney wrote: »

Does a deliberate handball have to be a goal-denying gesture to warrant a red? I'm pretty sure I've seen keepers red-carded for deliberate handball outside the area.

It was probably going into the goal or the ref thought a striker could have finished it if it went pass him. But say a keeper somehow forgetfully steps out of the box with the ball still in his hands then its just a free kick, possibly a really strict ref might give a yellow but common sense will say it isn't.

amacachi

So a non-deliberate handball is always play-on? Jesus I'd love to see that. :pac:

EDIT: Also, on the first one, suppose the second guy kicks the ball away rather than handling it, does that still mean just a yellow because the first player "didn't deny a goal"?