Joe Hart - Manchester City's Number 1

therokerroar

Shay Given has handed in a transfer request.

Being reported as fact in all of this morning newspapers along with on Manchester City's forum.

Surely Manchester City won't allow Given to go to Arsenal as they consider them rivals.

Schwarzer to Arsenal, Given to Fulham?

Xavi6

Not sure if this will last as a thread, but I think we've made the right decision here.

It's a massive show of faith in a young goalkeeper but I think we will be rewarded with a number 1 for the next decade or so.

Disappointing that such a top bloke like Shay has to lose out but that's football I guess.

P.S. He'll go to Celtic.

JPA

If true they have made a mistake. Hart is still unproven and made mistakes last year.
Given will not join Celtic.


Given to Arsenal, Schwarzer stays more like.

Lukker-

Smart by City tbh. Shay is a fantastic keeper and all but he's 34. Hart is English and could be at City for the next 15 years and is a tremendous talent.

DOC09UNAM

Perhaps Given will go to somewhere else, perhaps tottenham, maybe even back to newcastle to finish his career...

Disastrous decision by Man City IMO, top quality goalkeeper.

JPA

Lukker- wrote: »

Smart by City tbh. Shay is a fantastic keeper and all but he's 34. Hart is English and could be at City for the next 15 years and is a tremendous talent.

At 34 he still has 4 or 5 years left, Hart is a gamble and Given will be gone by August 31st so if things go wrong they have no one to turn to.

bad2dabone

Goose81 wrote: »

No,you have made an epic **** up,city style.

have to agree with this!
Given to Arsenal, come on Arsene you know it makes sense!

DOC09UNAM

Goose81 wrote: »

No,you have made an epic **** up,city style.
You have ditched a top goalie for a rubbish keeper,who is english so he will keep the quota up for your mockery of a club.

Fairly sure shay given counts as homegrown so that is just a ridiculous statement.


Definitely a fúck up though.

OPENROAD

Very tough choice but Hart showed enough for me last season that it is the correct choice, pity as would have liked to have made a move for Hart.

Can't see Arsenal signing Given, Arsene has had plenty of opportunities to sign him and has chosen not to.

M5

While i can see the logic behind the decision it baffles me. Sure long term Hart may be the better option but Given is clearly the better goalkeeper. He has been there or thereabouts for the last 10 years or more and judging by last season he still has a few miles left in the tank.

On the Arsenal thing. He has been linked several times in the past, I dont think Wenger rates him TBH.... Then again his goalkeeping cv is mixed to say the least

me-skywalker

City keeping Hart (geddit? 'keeping'.. naw? ah well pfft) isnt so bad Hart showed that he is a great keeper well readily able to manage in the Premier League plus now he#ll have an extra year in Europe too. Unfortunatly it just shows that City have made themselves look like planks again and messing around with a genuine, honest and hard working footballer. Also shows more lack of respect for any players and the fact their forward planning is jsut pure rubbish.

I think Given will stay North of the midlands anyway cant see him heading South as his family commitments.

me-skywalker

Xavi6 wrote: »

I already hold both

BTW Did you have to make a vow to the Queen?

Raekwon

I think Hart is a very good keeper and becoming the City (& England) number one will give his confidence a massive boost.

Btw I'd like to see Given move to Villa, Brad Friedel is in the last year of his contract and will be 40 at the end of the season so I can't see him sticking around much longer.

M5

Am i the only sober person here at the moment????

OPENROAD

M5 wrote: »

While i can see the logic behind the decision it baffles me. Sure long term Hart may be the better option but Given is clearly the better goalkeeper. He has been there or thereabouts for the last 10 years or more and judging by last season he still has a few miles left in the tank.

On the Arsenal thing. He has been linked several times in the past, I dont think Wenger rates him TBH.... Then again his goalkeeping cv is mixed to say the least

I really don't think Given is that far ahead to be honest. Anyway Hart has been picked for the spurs match, its Given thats putting in the transfer request not city getting rid of him.

DOC09UNAM

maybe

JPA

M5 wrote: »

Am i the only sober person here at the moment????

I can only speak for myself when I say, (hic), I dunno.

OPENROAD

M5 wrote: »

Am i the only sober person here at the moment????

No

M5

OPENROAD wrote: »

I really don't think Given is that far ahead to be honest. Anyway Hart has been picked for the spurs match, its Given thats putting in the transfer request not city getting rid of him.

fair point, Hart could easily be loaned out again. Personally with the risk involved (however small) and considering City are supposed to be pushing for the title this year, i'd have Mr Reliable in goals or in any position

M5

OPENROAD wrote: »

No

ONE person, ONE! ye are all pissheads!






*or maybe im just jealous

Bob the Seducer

OPENROAD wrote: »

I really don't think Given is that far ahead to be honest. Anyway Hart has been picked for the spurs match, its Given thats putting in the transfer request not city getting rid of him.

Well, he's ahead by about 100 international caps!

Seriously though if Given is ahead at all (and I personally think he is) then he has to be number 1.

It's not about the future, it's not about potential, it's about right now.
City have a revolving door squad upgrade policy, the distant future isn't a necessary consideration, only who's the best eleven for the next game. At the moment I think Given is better than Hart, Stewart Taylor and David Gonzalez (whoever he is...) so that would make him the one to pick.

Drumpot

Delighted if its true . .

Given deserves better . . Seems that being a good player at City is not good enough .. Stephen Ireland (whom I dont like), Richard Dunne and now Given . . Brilliant .. Go on the City, keep shipping out players that actually give it their all and play well for you . .

Not just that . . Yes, Joe Harte for the future . .

One bad or dodgy couple of games and he will be shipped out of there quicker Rob Green for England and Im sure we will be reading about the next "new talent" for city very soon afterwards . . One thing that chelsea got right is that they did nothing of this kind of ridiculous moving of players . . Clubs with too much money they dont really know what to do . . Fantastic . . . .

Dont keep a goalkeeper who could easily control a team/defence that has little experience playing as a team ..

Sensational (I really mean it) . . Yes, the best way to win things is to ship out the most consistant performers you have . . Oh and I hate Bellamy but he is deserving of the boot for his underperformance last season . . Adebayer, tevez, robhino - all quality commited players who will give it their all against Blackpool away when things arent going their way. . Brilliant . . Im sure the club will prosper with such a hard working team with City's interests at heart . . :P

me-skywalker

OPENROAD wrote: »

I really don't think Given is that far ahead to be honest.

Yea Ild go along with this, I dont think Given is as commanding in the air as he should be for a top team that thinks they are going to be title contenders. As we all saw in Paris(hahaha)

Mr.Nice Guy

I think City have made a mistake. I think this is going to be another Dunne/Lescott situation - better man goes and the replacement isn't as good.

I do rate Hart highly and think he has a lot of similiarities with Given. I reckon Hart can be world class one day and I think City are right to keep hold of him, but I don't think Hart is quite ready yet. Yes he had a great season for Birmingham but this is a big step up from that and from watching him in pre-season I thought he had more shaky moments than Given.

I'm quite surprised as I figured they'd loan out Hart to Sunderland. I feel bad for Shay, especially if he winds up at Fulham with Hughes. That's a step down in anyone's book. I doubt Arsenal will go for him. Celtic could be an option if they have the funds to pay his wages.

Shay deserves better treatment than he's getting at rinse and repeat F.C.

Xavi6

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I reckon Hart can be world class one day and I think City are right to keep hold of him, but I don't think Hart is quite ready yet.

But what if Hart issued the same ultimatum as Given?

Would you keep the player who will be world class or the one who won't be for much longer?

Degag

M5 wrote: »

On the Arsenal thing. He has been linked several times in the past, I dont think Wenger rates him TBH.... Then again his goalkeeping cv is mixed to say the least

I'm confused, how do you think his GK CV is mixed and why don't you think Wenger doesn't rate him?

Personally i think Shay is one of the best goalkeepers in the world. I rate Hart very highly but i don't think he's at Shay's level yet. If he is moving, i hope he gets a move to a good club who'll challenge for honours. I think he deserves it.

Drumpot

Xavi6 wrote: »

But what if Hart issued the same ultimatum as Given?

Would you keep the player who will be world class or the one who won't be for much longer?

Who will be world class ? ? ?

This is a certainty ? ? How so ? ? That aside, how many world class players will City go through before they find the right ones in the right positions ?

Van De Saar is 39 . . Not bad for a non world class keeper . .What a crock . . Top keepers can play at the top level until they are at the end of their 30's . . You might only get a paltry 4 more years of top football from Given but have unguaranteed potential from Harte . . !! Again, your presumption is not only wildy huge, its ignoring the fact that performing for a Birmingham team that has survival expectations is not the same as performing consistantly for a City team expected to lead a charge for the EPL . (one of the reason England players fail to perform on the biggest stage for their country - expectation) .

A keeper that couldnt get ahead of Rob Green and David James for England only 3 months ago is deserving of starting spot ahead of Shay Given (who England could only dream of at world Cup). Not just that, a keeper who will be playing in a team that will be expected to make the top 4 in England . . M m m . . Alot of presumptions there . .

Mr.Nice Guy

Xavi6 wrote: »

But what if Hart issued the same ultimatum as Given?

Would you keep the player who will be world class or the one who won't be for much longer?

With City's funds being what they are I think if Hart issued an ultimatum then they should let him go. Buying a world class goalkeeper would be no problem for them in a few years and they have one in the meantime.

I think Hart is smart enough though to realise that the future is in his hands and I feel if Mancini had handled this better he could have had both keepers on his books.

Now I think Hart has huge pressure on him and if he does have a Ben Foster-type response to that pressure, City will have to turn to the transfer market.

me-skywalker

Xavi6 wrote: »

Not sure if this will last as a thread, but I think we've made the right decision here.
.

thats a quick change in tone...... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67375773&postcount=28

FreeOSCAR

Disappointed with this, we are all probably a bit biased because Shay's Irish.

Hopefully Arsenal come in for him and he can play some Champions League football..

Really don't like the way City have gone about this business of axing players so late....Kinda becoming the team the loathe lately.

Xavi6

Drumpot wrote: »

Who will be world class ? ? ?

This is a certainty ? ? How so ? ? That aside, how many world class players will City go through before they find the right ones in the right positions ?

I've seen enough of Hart to know that the ability is there to be world class. He needs first team football to nurture the talent and bench warming isn't going to help him.

Of course it could be argued that we could just ship him out on loan but if he doesn't want that?

Van De Saar is 39 . . Not bad for a non world class keeper . .What a crock . . Top keepers can play at the top level until they are at the end of their 30's . . You might only get a paltry 4 more years of top football from Given but have unguaranteed potential from Harte . . !! Again, your presumption is not only wildy huge, its ignoring the fact that performing for a Birmingham team that has survival expectations is not the same as performing consistantly for a City team expected to lead a charge for the EPL . (one of the reason England players fail to perform on the biggest stage for their country - expectation) .

Given for four years or Hart for potentially ten? Or, by your reckoning about, fifteen?

I have enough faith in our academy (although Hart was initially signed from Shrewsbury) to believe that we have a seriously talented young keeper on our hands.

A keeper that couldnt get ahead of Rob Green and David James for England only 3 months ago is deserving of starting spot ahead of Shay Given (who England could only dream of at world Cup). Not just that, a keeper who will be playing in a team that will be expected to make the top 4 in England . . M m m . . Alot of presumptions there . .

Many would argue that he should have been.

Look, Given is the safe option, everyone knows that. I'm happy to see us take a risk though.

And sure if it goes tits up we'll just buy someone else

Xavi6

me-skywalker wrote: »

thats a quick change in tone...... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67375773&postcount=28

How? I do think Given should be number one but only if Hart is staying. I believe that if Given was first choice then Hart would move on.

Basically if we could keep both then Given. If we can keep one then Hart.

Zero change of tone.

Optimalprimerib

i actually think given is a little over rated to be honest about it. Sure he makes tonnes of game saving saves in a game due to having shaky defences in front of him, but maybe that is because he is not great at communicating with his back 4. Look at cech or vds who are excellent in this department. I reckon both chelsea and man u's defence is as good as it is because of their keeper's ability in this department. Remember how shaky man u were with barthez in goal.

Not sure hart is much better though

Drumpot

me-skywalker wrote: »

thats a quick change in tone...... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67375773&postcount=28

Like the children with the silver spoons, that cant decide which toys to play with, the rest of us can only laugh at how city are deciding what players to hold onto and what players to disgard . .

Sometimes you dont know what you had until its gone . .

I say Sell Given and any player that is either not english or not "sexy" . . Wow .. I can already see the headlines next May - "City to spend 200million to make sure that they guarantee a Champions league spot after this seasons dissapointment" . .

OPENROAD

Degag wrote: »

I'm confused, how do you think his GK CV is mixed and why don't you think Wenger doesn't rate him?

Personally i think Shay is one of the best goalkeepers in the world. I rate Hart very highly but i don't think he's at Shay's level yet. If he is moving, i hope he gets a move to a good club who'll challenge for honours. I think he deserves it.

Why have we never made a move for him before, plenty of opportunities.

Xavi6

Drumpot wrote: »

Like the children with the silver spoons, that cant decide which toys to play with, the rest of us can only laugh at how city are deciding what players to hold onto and what players to disgard . .

Sometimes you dont know what you had until its gone . .

I say Sell Given and any player that is either not english or not "sexy" . . Wow .. I can already see the headlines next May - "City to spend 200million to make sure that they guarantee a Champions league spot after this seasons dissapointment" . .

I'll bookmark this for May. Just in case.

MementoMori

Some interesting stats here

Mancini might care to note that a statistical comparison between Given's performances with Manchester City and Hart's with Birmingham City last season, given particular relevance by the fact that their workloads were almost identical (36 matches, 3,240 minutes and 42 goals conceded for Hart versus 35, 3,136 and 42 for Given), shows that the younger man made more saves (124 to 95), more punches (34 to 19) and more catches (69 to 33). He also dropped the ball only twice, to Given's five fumbles.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/12/joe-hart-fabio-capello-england-no1

OPENROAD

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

i actually think given is a little over rated to be honest about it.

+1

To the extent that some have him as world class.

eagle eye

Xavi6 wrote: »

Not sure if this will last as a thread, but I think we've made the right decision here.

It's a massive show of faith in a young goalkeeper but I think we will be rewarded with a number 1 for the next decade or so.

Disappointing that such a top bloke like Shay has to lose out but that's football I guess.

P.S. He'll go to Celtic.

Fully agree that they have made the right decision.

I'm a huge fan of Shay Given and he is in a very unfortunate situation here. I really do hope he gets a move to Arsenal and gets to experience CL football. He deserves that.

Degag

OPENROAD wrote: »

Why have we never made a move for him before, plenty of opportunities.

Ok, fair enough, although ye've been interested for years. Nothing to say Wenger didn't want him. Certain circumstances may have dictated why ye didn't sign him although i don't know why.

You didn't answer the first half of my question though.... :P how does he have a mixed cv?

Degag

OPENROAD wrote: »

+1

To the extent that some have him as world class.

I think he is World Class. Superb shot stopper, good kicker, organises his defense well, makes next to no mistakes.....

Drumpot

Xavi6 wrote: »

I've seen enough of Hart to know that the ability is there to be world class. He needs first team football to nurture the talent and bench warming isn't going to help him.

Of course it could be argued that we could just ship him out on loan but if he doesn't want that?



Given for four years or Hart for potentially ten? Or, by your reckoning about, fifteen?

I have enough faith in our academy (although Hart was initially signed from Shrewsbury) to believe that we have a seriously talented young keeper on our hands.



Many would argue that he should have been.

Look, Given is the safe option, everyone knows that. I'm happy to see us take a risk though.

And sure if it goes tits up we'll just buy someone else

In all seriousness I know what you are saying but I think that when you become a club like City (CL expectations) its not as simple as trying to bring on youngsters, no matter how the fans feel . .

Shay Given is the safer bet and the guaranteed quality bet . . Some here seem to think he is overrated . . Well what keepers in the EPL are better and more Consistant ? VDS and Reina perhaps, but in terms of proven ability there are no more . .

Harte should be loaned out because a few blunders like Foster and he will be under serious pressure and possibly tossed aside before he can recover .. Look at James who never recovered from his Liverpool stint yet always showed serious promise when he was younger . .

Im sure a City fan doesnt want to hear this, but Sir Alex has shown how to nurture talent at a club with huge expectations . . . Sometimes its worth throwing them in the deepend and sometimes its worth trying to keep them away from the limelight . . Replacing Given is a huge responsibility . . One or two fk ups and a young keeper will struggle to recover at City . . Given as an experienced keeper will recover very quickly .

Its not an Irish thing, its a general objective view on how the psyche of players can be effected by expectation . .

Xavi6

Degag wrote: »

I think he is World Class. Superb shot stopper, good kicker, organises his defense well, makes next to no mistakes.....

He's pretty horrible on crosses

Mr.Nice Guy

Wenger does rate Given. This is what he said about him when it was clear he was leaving Newcastle in early '09:

"I have a high regard for him as a player but we do not look for a goalkeeper."

To be honest I think most Arsenal fans would say they wish Wenger had bid for him then instead of persisting with Almunia. I feel Arsenal could have a chance for the title if they had a better keeper to start the season with than Fabianski and Almunia.

Drumpot wrote: »

I say Sell Given and any player that is either not english or not "sexy" . . Wow .. I can already see the headlines next May - "City to spend 200million to make sure that they guarantee a Champions league spot after this seasons dissapointment" . .

I actually think this is part of it - the English thing. It's fair to say, even just looking at the inflated prices they go for in the transfer market, that English players are often overhyped. Dunne was sold for Lescott, Barry was brought in with much fanfare and didn't really cut the mustard, likewise Bridge, Ireland looks a star for the future but they want Milner instead, now Given looks to be gone to be replaced by Hart.

It's part of the hype machine that promotes English players. I should say I do rate Milner and Given, the latter more than the former too, but I think the media makes them appear better than they are.

One of the reasons I'm so sure Hart will be regarded as world class in a few years is due to the lack of competition he will face for the England jersey and their papers and TV, not to mention the tournament football he will get, will give him the kind of plaudits and exposure that a guy like Given will never come by.

Drumpot

Xavi6 wrote: »

I'll bookmark this for May. Just in case.

Please do . . I seriously doubt city will do better then 4th (and thats a stretch) . .

Drumpot

OPENROAD wrote: »

+1

To the extent that some have him as world class.

Fair enough . . In the EPL what keepers would you think are proven to be better then him playing for a top 6 team ?

In fact, what Keepers in the world do you think are unquestionably way better then Given ?

Drumpot

MementoMori wrote: »

Some interesting stats here



http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/12/joe-hart-fabio-capello-england-no1

Im sure David James Stats for clubs that werent expected to do well are better then his stats for clubs that expected trophies ..

He couldnt hack it at Liverpool but was superb for clubs that expected little from their teams . . Sure for Portsmouth he was amazing against United nearly every season . . For Liverpool he nearly always fked up against United . .


Look at many top Brazilian players . . Peak in their Early 20s and show amazing Ability. By the time they are in their late 20s they are burned out. . This is a mentality issue for me. . With English players it seems to be nearly the opposite. They explode onto the scene and cant deal with the hype and seldom fullfill their potential . .

Simple point really . . A big presumption towards english players in England is that Talent equates to success, without any thought of how to nurture that talent. I am saying that potential sometimes needs to be slowly integrated into a pressure environment. A keeper can perform more consistantly and with less pressure for a smaller club . . Unless of course you feel that the expectations of Birmingham match those of city ? If thats the case, I stand corrected . .

me-skywalker

MementoMori wrote: »

Some interesting stats here



http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/12/joe-hart-fabio-capello-england-no1

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on Given in the air... and also backs up my Hand of Henry theory... Ill be bringing this back up in the pub to create a bit of havoc haha

Xavi6 wrote: »

How? I do think Given should be number one but only if Hart is staying. I believe that if Given was first choice then Hart would move on.

Basically if we could keep both then Given. If we can keep one then Hart.

Zero change of tone.

You do think Given should be number one, you do think Given should be sold, you do think Given should be Taoiseach, you do think Given is going to be the first Irish man on the moon, you do think, yes, yes you do.

GLaDOS

Call me a crazy drunk (at least half of which is true) but... can I see any sort of source for the op's claims?

Xavi6

me-skywalker wrote: »

You do think Given should be number one, you do think Given should be sold, you do think Given should be Taoiseach, you do think Given is going to be the first Irish man on the moon, you do think, yes, yes you do.

If you can't see the two scenarios I put forward then that's your problem, not mine.

me-skywalker

Xavi6 wrote: »

If you can't see the two scenarios I put forward then that's your problem, not mine.

If you cant see your web, then thats your problem. A bit of consistency would be nice, maybe your just taking example from City's form and behaviour.

Anyway think this thread has had enough verbal bashing. Sure we both agree that Hart is just as good as Given and is younger so has the potential and time to be better so its not a huge deal except for their handling of the situation and handling of palyers. Hoepfully Cunningham can see this and get out of "Dodge" asap!