photographers excuses for shooting for free- MOD NOTE POST #60

stcstc

http://rising.blackstar.com/photographers-excuses.html



i like, he sounds a bit harsh but you know he is talking sense

Tin Foil Hat

Should I also charge my sister, or my friend, the going taxi rate for a lift to the airport? My car cost me a fortune, and it took me ages to learn how to drive.

I'm an amateur when it comes to photography, and I'm pretty crap. I'd happily allow one of my photo's to be used for free. I'd consider it a huge compliment.

whyulittle

So if a random stranger asked you for a lift to the airport, you'd be happy to bring them.

Tin Foil Hat

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

my sister, or my friend

whyulittle wrote: »

random stranger

As a crap amateur with no real experience of anything, I'd be happy to do things for free, even for strangers.

I would happily charge through the nose if I could guarantee some amazing photos, but I can't guarantee the quality of my photographs. Therefore, I can't logically or morally charge for them.


The article seems to assume that you're already a very experienced and knowledgeable photographer with a studio or somesuch.

Such people would/should be charging anyway.

Tin Foil Hat

whyulittle wrote: »

So if a random stranger asked you for a lift to the airport, you'd be happy to bring them.

It happens all the time. It's called thumbing. I don't pick up thumbers, but plenty of people do. People have the right to chance their arm, and people have the right to say yes or no.

I understand that photography is an underrated skill, and it is an art. But if amateurs want to share their talents for free, then that's their right. Any new young band would be delighted for a radio station to play their music, without charge. I don't see photography as being any different.

challengemaster

Deleted User wrote: »

I would happily charge through the nose if I could guarantee some amazing photos, but I can't guarantee the quality of my photographs. Therefore, I can't logically or morally charge for them.

And what about your time? Worth nothing? Mechanics charge by the hour even if something takes 5 minutes.

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

And what about your time? Worth nothing? Mechanics charge by the hour even if something takes 5 minutes.

It's not really the same at all, but I wouldn't pay a mechanic if he couldn't fix my car.

If i wanted my photo taken and I came across a photgrapher and we went out on a shoot or he covered an event or whatever for me, and he turned up afterwards with loads of blurry photos or blown highlights in everything, etc. then I certainly wouldn't pay him.


In my current situation, if I were approached by a person, band, company or whatever, I wouldn't mind saying "if you think the work is usable or suitable, then my fee is x amount, but if my photographs are of no benefit or use to you, no fee will be charged" (and of course, they would not get copies of the photographs).


That seems to work for all involved.

Thecageyone

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I understand that photography is an underrated skill, and it is an art. But if amateurs want to share their talents for free, then that's their right. Any new young band would be delighted for a radio station to play their music, without charge. I don't see photography as being any different.

The band are not doing a service for the radio station, it's pretty much other way round in that case. When aspiring photographers are asked [as I do all the time] to do shoots for people, they're almost expected to do it free, with that ol' "It'll help get your name around" spiel attached. When does it end? when is your name 'spread around' enough? that you can start to charge?

I did a shoot for a band today, they've been hailed as Ireland's top Indie rock band:

http://www.irishpressreleases.ie/2010/04/18/the-whatmans-from-navan-crowned-top-irish-indie-rock-band/

And I did it for free, called upon at the last minute to fill in for their usual 'tog because she's away.

Why did I jump to do it? and for free? Well, simply because these guys played a fund raiser gig for us the other week ... for free ... and I like to repay favours - It does help at times to do a service for no charge. It gets you contacts you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. If I turned around and charged them for today I think I'd have lost contact right there. As it stands now, they'll remember I did them a favour in return and next time they're stuck and call, it'll be a 'job'

Paulw

Deleted User wrote: »

In my current situation, if I were approached by a person, band, company or whatever, I wouldn't mind saying "if you think the work is usable or suitable, then my fee is x amount, but if my photographs are of no benefit or use to you, no fee will be charged" (and of course, they would not get copies of the photographs).

If it's good enough to print/use, then it's certainly good enough to pay for.

Too many people/companies want images for free, and they will use beginners as an excuse not to pay. The more people give images for free, the more places want images for free and the less they're willing to pay.

Nothing for nothing is the best way.

smelltheglove

I did a few free jobs starting off to work on my interpersonal skills mainly and ensure I was happy with what I was doing, but I had my limit of how many freebies I would do and that was that. Funnily enough those party invitations where the bring your camera is thrown in is never from friends or family, friends and family tend to say sure leave the camera at home and enjoy yourself whereas the invitations that come with bring your camera would have been from people I barely knew!:rolleyes:

Free work is just draining, in my opinion I will not offer to work for a stranger for free, I will take a picture no probs for friends for free but they can pay for the print if they want one.

The whole dont do anything for free thing though is very harsh. I mean I wouldnt photograph a friends wedding and expect to be paid for it, as it is next week myself and my hubbie are guests at a close friends wedding, I will photograph and he will do the evening music, we wont charge as we are close friends and want to help out ont heir special day.

There is always a line so I have my own discounts that I work off. Based on weddings, iwhen I am close to someone I will shoot for free, distant family half price, friends of close family and friends or old aquaintances 300 off, friends of acquaintences 100 off. Most people are not only happy to get a discount but happy they are hiring someone they know of, someone they know they can rely on.

jpb1974

I suppose he didn't include #13 because it isn't bogus:

I did it for free simply because I chose to and if some internet warrior has a problem with it then it's their fcuking problem, not mine

charybdis

I'm not a professional photographer so I can't authoritatively comment on the realities of the changing market for photography but it seems like a lot of "pro" photographers are more interested in complaining about others doing things for free or cheaply than they are in trying to show why their own photography is worth paying (more) for.

I don't like people requesting spec. work because it belies a disrespect of the person to whom the request was made and their craft, but I don't see how people think it's OK for someone to tell others what to do on the grounds that it might harm their business.

jpb1974

but I don't see how people think it's OK for someone to tell others what to do on the grounds that it might harm their business.

Totally agree... assuming it's all legal then what I do in my own free time is nobody's business but mine. If I did something for free then I don't feel any need whatsoever to have to justify it to anyone else... I did it because I chose to.

Nforce

Took some shots for free for a magazine yesterday and got virtually unlimited access to the event as a result. I'm happy out.

DaireQuinlan

charybdis wrote: »

I'm not a professional photographer so I can't authoritatively comment on the realities of the changing market for photography but it seems like a lot of "pro" photographers are more interested in complaining about others doing things for free or cheaply than they are in trying to show why their own photography is worth paying (more) for.

I don't like people requesting spec. work because it belies a disrespect of the person to whom the request was made and their craft, but I don't see how people think it's OK for someone to tell others what to do on the grounds that it might harm their business.

I'd broadly agree with this. There are parallels here to how the software industry reacted at first when OS software started to really make inroads. Various doomed predictions were made about the death of the industry, but overall it probably ended up stronger and more robust for it. Adaptations had to be made, but if your business model doesn't work anymore because of what OTHER people are doing then it's probably time to change your business model.

OTOH pros who are already IN the industry probably have no small reason to feel aggrieved at other professionals underplaying or undervalueing their work, they're doing themselves no favours, so there's probably scope for some sort of code of ethics or protectionism or something of the like. IE STG, as a pro who relies on her photography as her livelihood, could feel aggrieved at another pro offering their services for free, because that undermines the entire industry that they -both- rely on, but neither could feel aggrieved at, for example, theCagyone offering services for free, as he's an amateur, his work probably reflects that, and he has no vested interest in the industry.

Thecageyone

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

for example, theCagyone offering services for free, as he's an amateur, his work probably reflects that, and he has no vested interest in the industry.

You trying to be smart with that comment? I don't offer everyone and anyone freebies, I did a few to get a portfolio together for family and friends. The latest shoot I did was a return favour, or did you even read that properly? The band I shot helped raise almost €6000 for our daughter's fund, I think it was worth the 20 minute shoot I did for them ... And main thing is, they were happy with the results.

My work reflects amateurism? What a snobbish thing to say. Many 'pros' on here would be delighted with some of the shots I get. And I DO have an interest in the industry. Funny you picked me out ... again.

I've turned down weddings because I don't have the right gear for the job. I wouldn't like to do an Amateur job because I didn't have the right strobe or a 1D MK II ... :rolleyes:

humberklog

Thecageyone wrote: »

You trying to be smart with that comment?

Oh good grief.

Face rests on palm of hand.

Thecageyone

humberklog wrote: »

Oh good grief.

Eh, pretty obvious that he was. I think it was a pompous, arrogant comment aimed at me tbh. He was pretty specific, where is it anything for you to comment on?

Hit yourself harder please.

"theCagyone offering services for free, as he's an amateur, his work probably reflects that" please tell me where you don't find that smart-assed and arrogant? Actually your above post is as bad, as it's blatantly trying to make me look like i'm over -reacting. Really don't mind what Mr. Q thinks of my stuff, but he has a wormy way of putting it out there.

humberklog

Thecageyone wrote: »

Eh, pretty obvious that he was. I think it was a pompous, arrogant comment aimed at me tbh. He was pretty specific, where is it anything for you to comment on?

Hit yourself harder please.

"theCagyone offering services for free, as he's an amateur, his work probably reflects that" please tell me where you don't find that smart-assed and arrogant?

What's obvious to you is far less obvious to others. It was a fair comment, and right. It was a good comparison that was kept within the thread. You're fecking out what could be helpful tips.

Thecageyone

I could be wrong, and if so I'll stand corrected - But from his post I got that he was prety much saying I go around offering freebies - I have never once took a job from under anyone. And I'd strongly resent that. Any 'freebie' I did was either the kind people wouldn't have bothered with otherwise if I didn't offer, or ones I offered myself to people I knew. Doing portraits or whatever to build up portfolio for the future. The 'few' I've done I considered one at a time, whether it would benefit me in that long run or not.

Thecageyone

Thecageyone wrote: »

I could be wrong, and if so I'll stand corrected - But from his post I got that he was prety much saying I go around offering freebies - I have never once took a job from under anyone. And I'd strongly resent that. Any 'freebie' I did was either the kind people wouldn't have bothered with otherwise if I didn't offer, or ones I offered myself to people I knew. Doing portraits or whatever to build up portfolio for the future. The 'few' I've done I considered one at a time, whether it would benefit me in that long run or not.

He was just mentioning the potential differences between amateur and professional photographers.

I imagine he only used your name because you posted in the thread. I don't think he was being malicious.

Thecageyone

Fair enough, and sorry Darragh if I'm way off, it's just you posted the line on me right after the pro v Amateur lines. I don't offer services for free, I decline requests for 'pro' level jobs on the basis I don't have enough/the right gear for the job. I'd never take a job from anyone, especially not for free. When I said I do the odd freebie, I'm very select about it and they hurt nobody.

smelltheglove

The names used by daire in his example were prob just because we posted he could just as easily uses two other names!

The point he was trying to put across is relevant though, I'm not too bothered by ametuers trying to muscle in on a job for free, the clients usually go with quality but if they were to hire an ametuer and get bad results I recommend a trash the dress shoot with a few romantic shots too to replace the shots they missed out on, that way I still get a good job but the stress
Levels are cut in 10!

gbee

Believe it or not, but at one time in my photographic career, I stopped selling pictures.

We went through a period of good work, a series of good weddings and a few corporate functions and all should have been well, but it was not and it took and investigation to find the problem.

Whilst we were paid well enough for our attendance and agree album or print order, it was identified that selling prints and especially small prints were the cause of our troubles.

The time and effort in making a £5 sale was gobbled in expenses ranging from the trips into town for the order, collecting that order, packaging it, delivery or postal expenses ~ when analysed properly that £5 print was costing us £7, despite the direct cost being £1.25 for print and folder.

Don't say we could sell for £10 as there were market rates prohibiting this.

So, how anyone can make any money by working for free is a mystery to me.

squareballoon

A pro is someone who earns a living from photography. An amateur isn't. simple as. It's not an indication of how good you are (although it can sometimes be)
If photography is how you make your money than it's not right for people to ask you to do it for free. Same as asking your doctor to give you a free consultation because hey, it's not costing them anything.
Trying to get someone to cover an event "because of the exposure" is usually bogus and doesn't lead to anything in real monitary terms.
Trading photography for another benefit like entrance to a gig or swapping it for another service like an exchange of talents doesn't count as giving it for free. It's just not a cash deal.
My time is important to me and to my family. If I am taking and editing photos for someone for free then that time is being taken away from me for free.

Thecageyone

smelltheglove wrote: »

The names used by daire in his example were prob just because we posted he could just as easily uses two other names!

The point he was trying to put across is relevant though, I'm not too bothered by ametuers trying to muscle in on a job for free, the clients usually go with quality but if they were to hire an ametuer and get bad results I recommend a trash the dress shoot with a few romantic shots too to replace the shots they missed out on, that way I still get a good job but the stress
Levels are cut in 10!

That's just it though. 'pros' almost always regard amateurs as being lesser. I guarantee I put as much effort into a shoot as any pro. In fact, it's like the learner driver thing, the amateur will probably try a bit harder because they want to be remembered and want word of their efforts to spread.

I did that shoot for the Whatmans for free for 2 reasons. 1: their regular photographer was off on holiday and they needed someone to do it before today, they did us a Massive favour for the fund raiser also, I got one day's notice and I had about 20 minutes with the band. 2: I knew if I did a decent job and the band liked the shots, they'd pass my name about to other bands - who won't get freebies I can tell ya.

Today, on their Facebook page, they've posted up:

"Thanks keith for all the time and effort to get us a pic for Arthurs day- any bands out there this guy is a god of the lens and very good value"

http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheWhatmans?ref=ts


Without me prompting them to do so. Ok, it's highly exaggerated, but already there's a comment underneath from another band's member enquiring about my services.

Sometimes a freebie, for the right reasons, does benefit. And an enthusiastic amateur can do every bit as good a job as a pro.

smelltheglove

Im not saying an ametuer is lesser, I mean I was one at one stage but at the end of the day when you are doing it for a job you are putting the most effort in you can, as you cannot chance missing something or doing a bad job, it damages your professional reputation. Also a professional will have the experience, Ill use a wedding as an example as this is what I do, the professional will have the experience to know for one the key moments and for two the obstacles that can come up during the day and what to do to ensure the image is still captured despite auntie Mary jumping infront at every photographic opportunity.

At the same time as comparing ametuers to professionals you can also compare professionals from different areas. I mean say I have no bother photographing a wedding, I love it, I know it inside out at this stage and get every image I need and more but I have no clue when it comes to photographing football say, I dont know the key moments, I dont know the best angles etc so there would be ameatuer sports photographers that could handle that job better than I could as I could handle a wedding better than a professional sports photographer could.

The ametuer versus professional argument is one that can never been won, every professional begins as an ametuer, you have to start somewhere so obviously there will be ametuers with a great standard and unfortunately there would be professionals that dont have that high standard that some ametuers have but at the end of the day when you look at quality on a ratio the professional quality will be better than the ametuer.

Thecageyone

Some good points there for sure, I mean, no way I'd offer to do a wedding - even for good money, atm. I just don't have the gear for it, even though I think I'd probably come out the other end with good shots and I know I'd give it my all. I wouldn't risk it on such a one off, huge occasion. Not without at least a back up camera, some long primes and maybe an assistant on top of what I have to hand.

Portraits though, I'd feel very comfortable doing a session for people on that front, and I wasn't at all intimidated doing the band shoot, even though I knew it was a big deal for them. They need a group shot for a large poster for the Guinness fest, they needed it for today. I spent all yesterday evening processing and had to get the finished images e-mailed to them early as possible early last night. That's what impressed them i think, that I put the work in right away and got the results to them on time. If I was any way half-arsed about it I doubt they'd be hailing me right now. I looked at the job like a pro. I set everything else aside and didn't stop until I was happy enough. Must have put 5 hours processing time in.

magicbastarder

my attitude to 'working for free' depends on the end use of the photos. if someone is using the photos in any way which will result in financial gain, they pay. i've only ever shot two weddings, and they were both presents for friends. i don't go out to sell my stuff to magazines, etc., so i've never really been faced with the choice about what to charge for handing over negs or files.

WheresMyCamera?

jpb1974 wrote: »

.........and if some internet warrior has a problem with it........

Easily my favourite part of this thread.

Borderfox

If pro's are giving out about people doing jobs for free then they should be looking at their own work and whatever insecurities they have.

If somebody does a job for free whether they are amateur's or pro's it wont affect myself or what I do, I am confident that I can deliver up to and exceeding my clients expectations everytime.

jpb1974

I can recall a guy on another forum who used to do photography nixers on the side for spare cash.

Then he was made redundant from what was previously his full time job and he took up photography as a full-time occupation.

A few months later he was in posting threads bashing people for doing nixers.

It's funny sometimes how some people can forget where they came from

Fajitas!

Ugh.

The real answer to the great big 'work for free' debate is...

It depends.

the_monkey

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Should I also charge my sister, or my friend, the going taxi rate for a lift to the airport? My car cost me a fortune, and it took me ages to learn how to drive.

I'm an amateur when it comes to photography, and I'm pretty crap. I'd happily allow one of my photo's to be used for free. I'd consider it a huge compliment.

here here .... this guy is a typical American , OBSESSED with money...

sineadw

the_monkey wrote: »

here here .... this guy is a typical American , OBSESSED with money...

He does come across as a d!ckhead. I prefer this take: http://www.ruared.ie/20.05.10_GetPaid.html

jpb1974

I prefer this take: http://www.ruared.ie/20.05.10_GetPaid.html

Agreed.

NothingMan

The guy really does come across very poorly. He seems to be of the opinion that you should never, ever click the shutter button unless you have a cheque in your hand. I take my camera along to my friends gigs and I get some good shots, they use them on their facebook/myspace page and I'm chuffed that some of them came out so well. They're not in a position to hire a photographer for each gig so no one is losing out on a job.

My sis is a beauty therapist thingy and she is entering a nail art photo comp. She did the nails and I took the photos. Spent a little time processing them and out of about 150 got 1 really good shot we were happy with. I hope she does well in the comp and I'd be happy if the photo got some possitive comments. If I didn't do it then it would have been a cheap compact job and the nails would be lovely but the photo would be dubious. Again, no one losing work.

I took a few shots of something that ended up in a paper on a full page spread. I could have said "Wow, they used my photos, that's really cool". Did I fúck, I told them how much I wanted and made sure I got it. They would have had to pay for those kind of photos and if an amateur is just happy for them to be shown then that could, in a real way, be taking business away from a pro/freelance photographer who may have similar shots but is asking a fair price to use them.

Thecageyone

I find those who think pros have a right to be annoyed by amatuers 'taking' jobs more arrogant still. In fact, I think I'll go out of my way to swipe jobs on up-their-own-rear togs in future. No more Mr nice guy!

jpb1974

It's total BS to suggest that if you do a job or two for free that you're forever stuck in this hole that you can't get out of. It's just a hyped up exaggeration for arguments sake.

jpb1974

I find those who think pros have a right to be annoyed by amatuers 'taking' jobs more arrogant still. In fact, I think I'll go out of my way to swipe jobs on up-their-own-rear togs in future. No more Mr nice guy!

I'd say the pro photography world is shítting itself

TinyExplosions

I think there's a clear delineation between doing work as a favour/gift to someone, and doing a freebie to "make connections"... I'd have no problem helping out mates who need shots taken etc etc, but if a company approached me and said they wanted advertising shots for a brochure for free "because it would be great exposure for you and we might give you paid work in the future" they can jog on and find someone else

nice1franko

It's much easier to produce relatively excellent photographs now, compared to say 10-15 years ago.

The equipment and software is so much better and cheaper and the art has become so much more popular as a result. A lot of hobbyists would be more than happy to take a few shots for either the experience alone or not much more than a kind word.

The same thing has happened to fixing computers, putting websites together (and taxi-driving :pac:)...

There is a point somewhere in the guys post but I think he messed it up:- If the post had been a reminder to people regularly doing good, unpaid work that their skill is a valuable one then it would have been a fair point but he went off with too much BS about beginners and all that -- sure with practically every trade/skill you get paid feck all when you start out! You use the time to learn, build some experience and make some contacts!

Arciphel

LOLZ

In work today I was asked if I would let them use one of the images to do a massive print of, to hang in a new coffee room they are building, one of those floor to ceiling type wall paper style prints.

I told them no, the guy who asked me (and who is a v. good mate) looked at me as if I had three heads.

He said "But, would you not like to see it printed out big?" I said no.

He said "But shure, it isn't costing you anything". I replied "Yeah, that's what the guy in the camera shop said when I bought this camera and all these lenses, here, take them for free".

I told him our company, which is spending something like €10k kitting out this break area and which is a major multinational, should be able to sort me out and buy one of my images to use, and if not then there are plenty of nice shots to be bought online at hi res for reasonable prices on sites like shutterstock and istockphoto.

I think he thinks I am a right See You Next Tuesday now... :pac:

jpb1974

I've been in a similar predicament where I was asked to do portraits of the big fish where I work for their internet site... payment would have been a gesture such as a voucher for a camera shop.

Previously they paid a 'mercenary' 4 figures to do the same work... so I said 'no, thanks'... (more than anything I just didn't want the hassle).

As mentioned previously... 'it depends' and as per SineadW's post you have to be comfortable with the conditions that you're operating in if you're going to do something for nothing.

Besides... if you do end up doing something for free or if it's paid work the best thing to do is to keep it to yourself... if you earned €0 or €10000 no need to be justifying it to anyone only yourself.

squareballoon

jpb1974 wrote: »

It's total BS to suggest that if you do a job or two for free that you're forever stuck in this hole that you can't get out of. It's just a hyped up exaggeration for arguments sake.

no but I think it's a good idea if you have a site to list the prices which you will charge when you have the experience and then say that you are portfolio building so taking on jobs for free. That way you don't have people thinking you take on free jobs just because you love photography so much.

Thecageyone

jpb1974 wrote: »

I'd say the pro photography world is shítting itself

Not the usuals who liked your post anyway, aren't they the ones who get wet over anything shot on film? Showing their elitism side yet again. Wouldn't mind but None of them any good themselves ... probably 'guffawed' at your post :P

I was joking ... but:

it'll be funny the day I swipe a job from under one of them now, do it free just out of spite, won't it :P


*likes this post* Guffaw! Snigger ...

Fajitas!

I think it's a good idea if you have a site to list the prices which you will charge when you have the experience and then say that you are portfolio building so taking on jobs for free.

This.

I have no problem organising shoots for free when *I* need to get something I want, or do something I want. If someone needs a favor and would do the same for me, then yep, I'll do it. When I need to update my portfolio, I'd hope to not pay for the model, MUA & stylists time. I'll get an up and coming designers clothes, and see if we can all benefit off of each others talents.

When it comes to advertising, promotion, events, weddings and everything else that would 'look good in my portfolio', it's a different story.

I also don't mind taking photos for free at my friends shows/gigs/plays. We all give each other a hand. If I ever needed anything free for them, they'll do the same. We all credit each other, we all help each other.

The link Sineadw posted is spot on too. Definitely worth a read.

Thecageyone wrote: »

it'll be funny the day I swipe a job from under one of them now, do it free just out of spite, won't it :P

If the only reason you're going out to get these jobs is out of spite, and the only reason you'll be getting them is because you'll do them for free, you got bigger things to be worrying about.

-Chris-

I read a blog post recently (I can't find the link at the moment) that suggested the important thing as a producer is to either do it for free, or to charge full price.

You can use free to build a portfolio, build a buzz, build a reputation etc. You can charge full price when you've established yourself and when you're creating somthing that you're happy to charge for.

The main takeaway from the article was to choose one or the other and resist the temptation to discount to win business - discounting devalues your output and makes it hard to get back to full price - whereas with free vs full-price you retain control.

dave66

Why do some folks make/take things personal and in doing so take threads off track and regularly into a death spiral? There seems to be so much pent up anger that is unleashed at a whim, and an unceasing editing of posts.

Kintarō Hattori

Thecageyone wrote: »

Not the usuals who liked your post anyway, aren't they the ones who get wet over anything shot on film? Showing their elitism side yet again.

So you're saying that should you like film photography then you're elitist?

Wouldn't mind but None of them any good themselves ... probably 'guffawed' at your post :P

An arrogant statement to make...... oh but look you were joking.

humberklog

Thecageyone wrote: »

it'll be funny the day I swipe a job from under one of them now, do it free just out of spite, won't it :P


*likes this post* Guffaw! Snigger ...

I only count 1 full time pro and one part timer that take on such work (and I'm not one) that thanked that post.

You might like it yourself but the jpb's was far better all round, in my very humble opinion.