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Sorry i can't accept your money.

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    #62
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ectoraige wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you're 100% correct there.

    The creditor can't refuse legal tender when offered to him. However, he can refuse to give any change and treat the excess as a gift. He can tell the debtor "If you give me that €50, you won't be getting any change back". If the debtor insists on proceeding, then the creditor can't refuse.

    At least, that's my understanding of it.

    God, I'm getting tired!

    Yes, you are right. I thought I was having enough trouble dealing with people without spelling out that detail. The point is made in the link I posted already: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Legal_tender.


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    #63
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    sesna wrote: »
    We're getting new provisos. Gone from okay to keep the change, to now having to inform the debtor that the creditor is about to keep his change - sorry gift.

    Who ever said that it's okay to keep the change? I have consistently said that the creditor is not obliged to give change.


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    #64
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    sesna wrote: »
    We're getting new provisos. Gone from okay to keep the change, to now having to inform the debtor that the creditor is about to keep his change.

    No, you're gone to reading more into what is being said. I never said there was an obligation on the creditor to make such a declaration, that's just how such an exchange would go in reality:

    Restaurateur: That'll be €1 please for the coffee.
    Customer: Certainly, here's a mint €50 note, uncreased and barely scented.
    Restaurateur: Ah, I'm afraid that I don't have change for that. Do you have anything smaller?
    Customer: Whether I do or not is none of your damn business! I'll have you know that I read on the Internet that this is legal tender, and you cannot refuse to accept it to settle the debt.
    Restaurateur: Very well, however I'll have you know that I read on the Internet that I don't have to give change, so that'll prove to be a rather expensive cup of coffee.
    Customer: Oh. Well I do have this €1 coin that I was saving to get a shopping trolley in Lidl later, there was a bargain alert on the Internet about a wonderful tofu set on sale there.
    Restaurateur: Thank you, come again!


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    #65
    sesna
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭sesna


    ectoraige wrote: »
    No, you're gone to reading more into what is being said. I never said there was an obligation on the creditor to make such a declaration, that's just how such an exchange would go in reality:

    Restaurateur: That'll be €1 please for the coffee.
    Customer: Certainly, here's a mint €50 note, uncreased and barely scented.
    Restaurateur: Ah, I'm afraid that I don't have change for that. Do you have anything smaller?
    Customer: Whether I do or not is none of your damn business! I'll have you know that I read on the Internet that this is legal tender, and you cannot refuse to accept it to settle the debt.
    Restaurateur: Very well, however I'll have you know that I read on the Internet that I don't have to give change, so that'll prove to be a rather expensive cup of coffee.

    And if the customer had no small change, and the restauranteur stood firm on his legal tender law, the creditor could pursue him for the one euro owed via legal action. Great to be informed of these laws.


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    #66
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    sesna wrote: »
    And if the customer had no small change, and the restauranteur stood firm on his legal tender law, the creditor could pursue him for the one euro owed via legal action. Great to be informed of these laws.

    Isn't that what this forum is about? Helping people to become more informed as consumers.


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    #67
    delllat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    sesna wrote: »
    And if the customer had no small change, and the restauranteur stood firm on his legal tender law, the creditor could pursue him for the one euro owed via legal action. Great to be informed of these laws.

    the judge would probably throw both parties out of court before hed issue a €1 "settlement" for wasting the time of the court


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    #68
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    That's not quite the issue. We are discussing money already owed, not somebody seeking to buy a small item in a shop.

    In the case of settling a debt, the creditor is entitled to demand the exact amount. If you owed me €4 and tendered €50, I can refuse the €50 and demand the exact amount you owe me. If you took umbrage and walked off, I could sue you for the debt and the court would back my claim.
    No you could not. It would be an absolute defence to a civil claim that legal tender was offered and refused.


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    #69
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Haddockman wrote: »
    No you could not. It would be an absolute defence to a civil claim that legal tender was offered and refused.

    I refer you again to the reference I gave on legal tender. If you proffer a greater amount than you owe and require change, then you are not offering legal tender.


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    #70
    delllat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I refer you again to the reference I gave on legal tender. If you proffer a greater amount than you owe and require change, then you are not offering legal tender.

    that statement would mean a €50 euro note is not legal tender,which it clearly is in the eurozone


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    #71
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    delllat wrote: »
    that statement would mean a €50 euro note is not legal tender,which it clearly is in the eurozone

    No, it does not mean that. A €50 note is legal tender to the value of (surprise!) €50. It is not legal tender for a debt of €1 (unless you choose to gift €49 to the creditor).

    The core point which, apparently, you simply refuse to accept is that a debtor has no right to require that a creditor give change.


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    #72
    delllat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    No, it does not mean that. A €50 note is legal tender to the value of (surprise!) €50. It is not legal tender for a debt of €1 (unless you choose to gift €49 to the creditor).

    The core point which, apparently, you simply refuse to accept is that a debtor has no right to require that a creditor give change.


    so your saying again,a shop is entitled to keep someones change

    i disagree,
    especially in this case where the change is €49 euro and the bill is €1

    if a shop were "entitled" to keep your change this case would have came up before

    people would be reluctant to use large notes to pay anything of a lessser value


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    #73
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    delllat wrote: »
    so your saying again,a shop is entitled to keep someones change

    i disagree,
    especially in this case where the change is €49 euro and the bill is €1

    I am saying that a creditor has no duty to give change. The onus is on the debtor to tender the exact amount due.

    Clearly you would prefer not to believe what I say. Try considering the words of the Royal Mint, which operates under the same legal code as Ireland has -- or, more correctly, we operate under the same code as the UK, because we inherited it from them:
    In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
    [Source: http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx, emphasis added by me.]


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    #74
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Has any of this been tested in a court here?


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    #75
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Haddockman wrote: »
    Has any of this been tested in a court here?

    Probably.


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    #76
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I wouldn't be so sure.


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    #77
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    delllat wrote: »
    so your saying again,a shop is entitled to keep someones change

    i disagree,
    especially in this case where the change is €49 euro and the bill is €1

    if a shop were "entitled" to keep your change this case would have came up before

    people would be reluctant to use large notes to pay anything of a lessser value

    sorry, but you are wrong.
    The shop can keep the change.

    The reason why it doesn't come up very often is that it would be bad business practice. A shop which would keep the change, would be out of business very fast, probably even before it has a chance to go to court.


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    #78
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Haddockman wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so sure.

    So far all you have contributed to this discussion is assertions and challenges and one post which seems to have no other purpose than to have a go at me.

    I have set out the position on legal tender and given citations.

    It's time for you to put up or shut up: give some evidence for your claims.


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    #79
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    Show us where in IRISH law that legal tender can be refused in settling a debt, regardless of change, until you can show that then all you too have shown is conjecture and opinion


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    #80
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59558379&postcount=7
    Legal Tender simply means its a defence to a civil action to recover a debt to state that you tendered legal tender. It exists in euro bank notes and up to 50 euro coins.

    The obligation to accept legal tender only arises once the debt occurs. So for example if you consumed a meal in a restaurant and offered cash as payment, and this was refused. You would be within your rights to leave, if the restaurant sued you you would put as a defence that legal tender was offered. It doesn't mean you have a right to demand a service provider accept cash if no debt has been created.


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    #81
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Haddockman wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59558379&postcount=7

    Not relevant, as it does not deal with the point about change.

    Edit: I found the same poster dealing with the question of change: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54069749&postcount=7


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    #82
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    So a shop is within its rights to refuse?


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    #83
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    MunsterCycling wrote: »
    Show us where in IRISH law that legal tender can be refused in settling a debt, regardless of change, until you can show that then all you too have shown is conjecture and opinion

    Why don't you show me where in Irish law I can impose on a creditor an obligation to give change?


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    #84
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    super-rush wrote: »
    So a shop is within its rights to refuse?

    Refuse what?


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    #85
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Refuse what?

    A €200 note as payment.


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    #86
    delllat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    super-rush wrote: »
    A €200 note as payment.

    a 200 or a 500 may be considered large ,this whole debate started over a guy who couldnt even break a 50


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    #87
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    delllat wrote: »
    a 200 or a 500 may be considered large ,this whole debate started over a guy who couldnt even break a 50

    Hey i was just looking for the answer to my question. I got lost after ten posts.


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    #88
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    super-rush wrote: »
    A €200 note as payment.

    The first point is that a shop can refuse to deal with you even if you offer the exact price of the goods you wish to buy. The concept of legal tender doesn't come into it at all.

    Legal tender becomes an issue only when you owe somebody money. And the point I have been making consistently is that when you are attempting to pay a debt, you have no right to demand change. If I owe somebody €67.50, then the only legal tender is notes and coins which amount to precisely €67.50.

    Most people in business try to be accommodating and will give change, but they have the right to refuse to give it.


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