MilSim Dublin

evilrobotshane

It's been becoming more and more apparent to me that while there's a decent amount of interest in milsim airsoft, there's not much focus or organisation to it, in Dublin at least. There's no dedicated sites nor much in the line of a community, and I think that's making it hard to develop airsoft beyond the 'cheaper paintball' or commercial or whatever we want to call it style of play. It seems to me that where milsim has a strong following it also has a centralised structure like a club.

I think Dublin has the population to sustain an active milsim scene, it just needs a bit of organisation to make that happen. What I'm sort of picturing is a group of interested people who'd like to be notified when there's a milsim game coming up, and that the group would run, say, one game a month. Anyone who's interested in being involved in doing more, such as working on rule sets, writing game scenarios, creating props and so on would be involved in sub-groups doing those things so those not interested don't have to be bothered by it. It'd be nice to think that eventually this'd allow for stuff that isn't practical at the moment, such as maybe an increase in themed uniforms and guns, advanced medic rules, radio code usage and so on.

Of course, the other advantage of this is that it'd be easily available to people who for whatever reason don't subscribe to Boards, which'd open the population pool up quite a bit.

I haven't put a lot of thought into this yet, but posting here is a start. If you'd be interested in, for starters, notification of upcoming games, PM me your email address and I'll add you to a list, and even if nothing else comes of it that's something.

Do people think there's anything to be gained from this? Any ideas on format or scope? Is there any advantage to making it more of a general thing than just confined to a specific geographical region? Post your thoughts, please.

thermo

sounds good, can you add me to the list?

Bernie Mac

I think its a great idea, the only issue i have found when considering organising milsim events is the large scale of the entire thing.

It can be very difficult to find a site in Ireland (not just Dublin but all of Ireland) that holds the larger number of players, ease of access to affordable insurance (which i think is a big issue in this country) and then as mentioned above a group to organise the event with enough passion to run it to a high standard.

I also think the sport may be still a bit immature in this country. There is still a lot of childish play and it is difficult enough to find players that you feel you can trust to play a milsim event and try and take it seriously.

Now that is just my own personal opinion on the subject. But that is not to say i am not up for still trying to run these events i am simply pointing out different issues i have come across when trying to set up an event myself

FingalAirsoft

We run MilSim night games once a month and we have done since we opened over 2 years ago;);) MAC run milsim games nearly every week..... and now you have Sligo airsoft running milsim games too, also HRTA and redbarn have run a few as well.... I think there are plenty of sites doing Milsim!

It's always the same problem..... loads on boards saying they want milsim but when it comes down to it.... they can't pull themselves away from the keyboard to attend or support the events.



Bren:)

TheDoc

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

We run MilSim night games once a month and we have done since we opened over 2 years ago;);) MAC run milsim games nearly every week..... and now you have Sligo airsoft running milsim games too, also HRTA and redbarn have run a few as well.... I think there are plenty of sites doing Milsim!

It's always the same problem..... loads on boards saying they want milsim but when it comes down to it.... they can't pull themselves away from the keyboard to attend or support the events.



Bren:)

While there are many milsim games being run, sometimes they arnt milsim in all honesty.

What I have noticed is there is at times complete misuse of the term milsim, along with differing levels of milsim.

Limited ammo
There is the games that are limited ammo and or midcaps only. This is a good start and usually a given for good games to be had, but its not exactly milsim, but its good entry level.

I haz a story to tell!
There is some bit of writing done, usually here on boards and the game is limited ammo. The story doesn't develop on site and you quickly forget there is any back story or anything. again a decent attempt and a good start

Milsim
Multiple objectives
Command structure
Proper radio etiquette
Advanced medic rules
Advanced hit rules
Limited ammo plus midcaps
Plot
Back story
Side objectives
Player driven tools
Open world ( not a marshall walking you into battles

And much more

It is great to see people putting in the effort but then its very hard sometimes to commit to certain games and especially now when I know me personally, I dont want to waste money on **** games anymore.

HRTA pushes alot of milsim themes and games and they are usually good fun. They are however majority of the time , the player base are new to milsim, or new players. not entirely a bad thing but it at times drags the experience down, usually by inexperience of the ruleset and enviroment. But generally tend to be great fun.

Fingal does a good few but I just dont ever get the chance to get out. I dont have an interest in night games so thats probably the main reason I'm not there. Cant really comment any further.

Red Barn runs a midcap only wednesday and could only get down once lately but it was good fun and great play. The few milsim experiences I've had there have been fun and intense games.

MAC has a new ban on hicaps and is always good for a milsim game. Was definitely frustrated for a while where there was a tendancy to be lead by a leash into ambushes which wasnt fun and I think I'm more favorable to the old site that was definitely a bit more open world and seemed to have more " milsimmy" story etc. Still always cracking though.

Jebrovian conflict - Was probably the best milsim experience I'd had to date, and no wonder with it being backed by the two head honchos of milsim. Didnt get the support it should have and I'm not sure if its going to continue, but it was a first class display of how milsim should be.

I know jinko here tried to setup a berget style milsim. He is a pretty experienced head imo and has been there and done it. I just felt uneasy commiting that sort of expense to a game that well, there wasn't any guarantee of a serious hardcore milsim like minded playerbase.


The point I'm making is that for me ( and I probably speak for a few others too) things like Sennybridge,berget and others are what we consdier as milsim. Its not to do with numbers or the quality of site, its to do with creating an atmosphere and enviroment where the plays actions and reactions and decision making fuel a quality game. Multiple objectives from the get go, new objectives dropped mid game, story and plot with characters, command structure and more.

Milsim feels like its on an ok track here so far. Theres been a few games over the summer that have gone well. Mostly a fresh new breed of young player who seem interested in the more tactical story driven style of play which is good.

As Shane so rightly says there is a large enough player base for milsim to evolve into more advanced play. He himself along with his entourage seem very much in the mindset of developing milsim and I for one would be glad to help out anyway I can.

evilrobotshane

The whole issue of what is and isn't considered milsim is another, different topic I'd like to have a crack at some other time. Some people think the most important thing is a storyline; some think it's ammo restrictions; some think it's command structure; some think it's multiple objectives... ultimately there are as many definitions of milsim as there are airsofters, and everybody's thinking of something different when they hear the word.

Personally I wasn't actually aware that Fingal are running milsim games, and that's one thing I'd like to address with this - getting that type of information to the people who want to know about it.

Of the examples given so far, Red Barn and HRTA's stuff just isn't frequent enough for me - I'd like more milsim, more often! For my money the best airsoft site in the country was Airsoft Battle Zone in Laois, with milsim every week, but it's closed down now. Midlands Airsoft Club is invitation-only to non-members.

To further emphasise the point on the differing definitions, Midlands concentrate on magazine restrictions and a tightly scripted storyline. The Jebrovian Conflict was primarily about realistic ammo limits and punitive injury rules. I had a non-playing tour of Foxtrot 58 up North recently and they don't give a hoot about ammo limits or magazine types or medic rules, but run open games with in-character interaction and a heavily military-influenced unit structure and tactics. All of these consider themselves milsim. Furthermore, Berget and the TA Events games at Sennybridge do not classify themselves as milsim.

Thus, not everything this group would cover will be of interest to all members, and that's okay. Broadly, it's a "more-advanced airsoft" interest group.

Puding

I would love to see more millsim but at the moment giving more For sites at this giving more time to milsim does not pay the bills, but it it will come with time . Airsoft needs time to mature and the growth of the milsim community will come way the same time, but it's long term developments rather than short term jumps that will give the best results

FingalAirsoft

TheDoc wrote: »

While there are many milsim games being run, sometimes they arnt milsim in all honesty.

What I have noticed is there is at times complete misuse of the term milsim, along with differing levels of milsim.

Limited ammo
There is the games that are limited ammo and or midcaps only. This is a good start and usually a given for good games to be had, but its not exactly milsim, but its good entry level.

I haz a story to tell!
There is some bit of writing done, usually here on boards and the game is limited ammo. The story doesn't develop on site and you quickly forget there is any back story or anything. again a decent attempt and a good start

Milsim
Multiple objectives : check
Command structure : check
Proper radio etiquette : check
Advanced medic rules : check
Advanced hit rules : check
Limited ammo plus midcaps : Limited ammo but not midcaps
Plot : check
Back story : check
Side objectives: check
Player driven tools : check
Open world ( not a marshall walking you into battles) : check.... yeah I guess we are doing milsim so.

And much more

It is great to see people putting in the effort but then its very hard sometimes to commit to certain games and especially now when I know me personally, I dont want to waste money on **** games anymore.

HRTA pushes alot of milsim themes and games and they are usually good fun. They are however majority of the time , the player base are new to milsim, or new players. not entirely a bad thing but it at times drags the experience down, usually by inexperience of the ruleset and enviroment. But generally tend to be great fun.

Fingal does a good few but I just dont ever get the chance to get out. I dont have an interest in night games so thats probably the main reason I'm not there. Cant really comment any further.

Red Barn runs a midcap only wednesday and could only get down once lately but it was good fun and great play. The few milsim experiences I've had there have been fun and intense games.

MAC has a new ban on hicaps and is always good for a milsim game. Was definitely frustrated for a while where there was a tendancy to be lead by a leash into ambushes which wasnt fun and I think I'm more favorable to the old site that was definitely a bit more open world and seemed to have more " milsimmy" story etc. Still always cracking though.

Jebrovian conflict - Was probably the best milsim experience I'd had to date, and no wonder with it being backed by the two head honchos of milsim. Didnt get the support it should have and I'm not sure if its going to continue, but it was a first class display of how milsim should be.

I know jinko here tried to setup a berget style milsim. He is a pretty experienced head imo and has been there and done it. I just felt uneasy commiting that sort of expense to a game that well, there wasn't any guarantee of a serious hardcore milsim like minded playerbase.


The point I'm making is that for me ( and I probably speak for a few others too) things like Sennybridge,berget and others are what we consdier as milsim. Its not to do with numbers or the quality of site, its to do with creating an atmosphere and enviroment where the plays actions and reactions and decision making fuel a quality game. Multiple objectives from the get go, new objectives dropped mid game, story and plot with characters, command structure and more.

Milsim feels like its on an ok track here so far. Theres been a few games over the summer that have gone well. Mostly a fresh new breed of young player who seem interested in the more tactical story driven style of play which is good.

As Shane so rightly says there is a large enough player base for milsim to evolve into more advanced play. He himself along with his entourage seem very much in the mindset of developing milsim and I for one would be glad to help out anyway I can.

evilrobotshane wrote: »

The whole issue of what is and isn't considered milsim is another, different topic I'd like to have a crack at some other time. Some people think the most important thing is a storyline; some think it's ammo restrictions; some think it's command structure; some think it's multiple objectives... ultimately there are as many definitions of milsim as there are airsofters, and everybody's thinking of something different when they hear the word.

Personally I wasn't actually aware that Fingal are running milsim games, and that's one thing I'd like to address with this - getting that type of information to the people who want to know about it.

Of the examples given so far, Red Barn and HRTA's stuff just isn't frequent enough for me - I'd like more milsim, more often! For my money the best airsoft site in the country was Airsoft Battle Zone in Laois, with milsim every week, but it's closed down now. Midlands Airsoft Club is invitation-only to non-members.

To further emphasise the point on the differing definitions, Midlands concentrate on magazine restrictions and a tightly scripted storyline. The Jebrovian Conflict was primarily about realistic ammo limits and punitive injury rules. I had a non-playing tour of Foxtrot 58 up North recently and they don't give a hoot about ammo limits or magazine types or medic rules, but run open games with in-character interaction and a heavily military-influenced unit structure and tactics. All of these consider themselves milsim. Furthermore, Berget and the TA Events games at Sennybridge do not classify themselves as milsim.

Thus, not everything this group would cover will be of interest to all members, and that's okay. Broadly, it's a "more-advanced airsoft" interest group.

And that's why ABZ are closed, a site can't survive on MilSim alone.... well a commercial one.... a club can as proven with MAC.

But yes I agree with Shane a central portal or thread just for Milsim events would be good for like minded people.

Danin

TheDoc wrote: »

Its not to do with numbers or the quality of site, its to do with creating an atmosphere and environment where the plays actions and reactions and decision making fuel a quality game. Multiple objectives from the get go, new objectives dropped mid game, story and plot with characters, command structure and more.

In my opinion, I have to agree with Doc it's all about "atmosphere and environment", I think the lead up to the game is as important as the game itself and I also agree that in order for a milsim game to "Flow" for want of a better description the players must have the freedom to make decisions that possibley upset or alter the best laid plans of organisers. There has to be an organic feel to the game maintained this does not mean that organisers insist you walk yourself into an ambush and accept the consequences more that its the organisers obligation to insure they have most angles a player may choose to take covered prior to setting the objective.

If I could also mention that in order to have a Command structure in place prior to the commencement of any game, you would need a bit more prior commitment from participants for example team captains to take the responsibility of a head count and say yes we will be there and here is our captains contact details. This is one of the reasons Sennybridge is a success regarding the command element of the game.

the only other comment I'd like to make is that in my experience you will never completely fulfill everyone's expectations and that's a fore gone conclusion but if you manage to tick most of the boxes mentioned above by Doc you'll be doing really well. Someone mentioned that some existing games are infrequent and on that point, I'd like to say this is not really fact as Redbarn have run there Mid cap game all summer without fail every Wednesday evening.

Gentlemen the best of luck with this, I think its one of many positive steps forward for the sport being made by many of our more travelled and experienced players and that it also results in many milsim games coming to fruition in the future.

OutsiderAkuma

Hey, i'm kinda new to airsoft, yet to skirmish. But i've roleplayed for a few years and did alot of story driven things.Also did themed events and helped alot of people with character progression and such. i'd help out with stories and characters, if you want help that is.

AlternateID

Jebrovain conflict was about realistic ammo, multiple obectives (both long term and short term), advanced intel and command structure. It was a learning curve for both the organisers and players new to milsim.
The TA event that many attended in May was Battlesim as is the one in September. I enjoy that format and look forward to attending next month.

For me milsim is about:
Ammo limits - doesn't have to be realistic. I like the TA 600 round limit.
Command structure
Multiple objectives
Background story giving purpose to the objectives
Mid-caps - sorry I think it's a must have
Patience - there's no rush

LARP is not something I think is necessary to have a successful milsim.

What I don't like to see in milsim:
Poorly placed respawn points or respawn points changing mid game
Teams having the same objectives
Story leading
Players not bleeding out correctly or not knowing the medic rules in play
And most importantly a confusing or overly complex storyline. This leads to bored players who'll ditch the command structure and end up skirmishing.

Shane, I'd be happy to help out if you want.

Hivemind187

evilrobotshane wrote: »

The Jebrovian Conflict was primarily about realistic ammo limits and punitive injury rules.

In fairness Shane, RoE were the first to start the trend of deep, evolving, player interaction driven story lines, complex rules sets, use of NPC's, complex physical props, Black-Ops missions etc. The games I was writing were slowly edging towards more LARP elements because I didnt believe that airsofters would take to it - then you went and blew us away with "Once Upon a Time ..." (git )

The problem was, as DoC points out, we didnt get the support base we needed. Only about 40% of the actual Jebrovian content was uncovered in total which means a lot of it was missed.

Regarding whether or not we will continue. Looks like this year is a wash out for us between funds, personnel and resources. Next year though, we hope to be back to form with the new site, tidied rules, more props, NPC's and (with a little luck) more writers and venues.

Spetzcong

Hivemind187 wrote: »

In fairness Shane, RoE were the first to start the trend of deep, evolving, player interaction driven story lines, complex rules sets, use of NPC's, complex physical props, Black-Ops missions etc. The games I was writing were slowly edging towards more LARP elements because I didnt believe that airsofters would take to it - then you went and blew us away with "Once Upon a Time ..." (git )

The problem was, as DoC points out, we didnt get the support base we needed. Only about 40% of the actual Jebrovian content was uncovered in total which means a lot of it was missed.

Regarding whether or not we will continue. Looks like this year is a wash out for us between funds, personnel and resources. Next year though, we hope to be back to form with the new site, tidied rules, more props, NPC's and (with a little luck) more writers and venues.

I really wish I'd been able to take part in the Jebrovian games, I was really excited about the concept it's just that weekday evenings don't suit me for airsofting. One big thing that I'd like to see more of is milsim games being run on weekends, I totally understand why it may not be viable for commercial sites to give up the revenue from a normal day where the unwashed masses can go and hose one another with hi-caps, but I really believe that for milsim to properly take off it will require that sacrifice from a site owner or two. Of course holding a milsim event on a weekend will attract less experienced milsimmers which as DOC mentioned has some negative side effects in terms of people not being familiar with the rule set/environment. I think if a couple of sites were to dedicate one Sunday a month to milsim we could have a situation where we had milsim games every two weeks, if this were done in conjuction with the organisers of a milsim series ala the Jebrovian conflict, then you could have a situation where milsim stories could be really developed to their full potential and a strong playerbase of experienced milsimmers could be grown and nurtured. I would leap at the opportunity to suckle on the milsim teet once or twice a month.

gerrowadat

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Multiple objectives : check
Command structure : check
Proper radio etiquette : check
Advanced medic rules : check
Advanced hit rules : check
Limited ammo plus midcaps : Limited ammo but not midcaps
Plot : check
Back story : check
Side objectives: check
Player driven tools : check
Open world ( not a marshall walking you into battles) : check.... yeah I guess we are doing milsim so.

Somehow I doubt all that. It also helps if the site is a little larger than a slippery hillside and half a field.

Midcaps are also a must -- much as it might seem OMG elitist, it just wrecks the atmosphere to have half the people showing up in proper gear with midcaps, to play with a load of lads in hoodies with a roughed up AK spetz held together with cable ties.

The vast majority of what makes a game 'milsim' for me is the players. It only takes a small group of bull****ters showing up to break the 4th wall and turn it into a skirmish.

Hivemind187

gerrowadat wrote: »

The vast majority of what makes a game 'milsim' for me is the players. It only takes a small group of bull****ters showing up to break the 4th wall and turn it into a skirmish.

... or to bog off in search of a cup of tea because its too cold

MerryDespot

Shane, I have to say that some of the most fun games I've had in Dublin have been the milsim games this summer - I think it brings out a totally different style of play that's (in my opinion folks, so don't jump down my neck) much more fun than skirmishing. It's more in line with what I thought airsoft was about when I started instead of legging it around with high caps.

So ... in short, if you're putting a list of people together and/or you want help - count me in. I learned more in a handful of milsim games than I have in a year of plinking plonkers at skirmish games...

FingalAirsoft

gerrowadat wrote: »

Somehow I doubt all that. It also helps if the site is a little larger than a slippery hillside and half a field.

Who gives a flying fcuk what you think or doubt:cool: your just a keyboard warrior who likes to dress up in bdu's, you have not attended a night game at Fingal..... we use 10 acres for our night games and at night that feels like 40 acres.

Midcaps are also a must -- much as it might seem OMG elitist, it just wrecks the atmosphere to have half the people showing up in proper gear with midcaps, to play with a load of lads in hoodies with a roughed up AK spetz held together with cable ties.

The vast majority of what makes a game 'milsim' for me is the players. It only takes a small group of bull****ters showing up to break the 4th wall and turn it into a skirmish.

It's this attitude that turns people off from trying milsim because they think it's full of anal computer geeks or self appointed elitist know it all's!

And as for midcaps I use midcaps in a regular skirmish never mind milsim/battlesim..... but I'm not going to enforce it on my customers, if they have them then that's fine, and if not no problem that's why we have ammo limits.

Tomazas

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

And that's why ABZ are closed, a site can't survive on MilSim alone.... well a commercial one.... a club can as proven with MAC.

But yes I agree with Shane a central portal or thread just for Milsim events would be good for like minded people.

Bren we might come back, you never know... and yes it would be milsim only.


Shane add me to the list, and ill keep the rest of the lads updated.

fayer

Should we request a new sub forum "milsim V skirmish / mid V high/ your an elitist c£nt debate"

Sorry Shane I know you had good intentions.

FingalAirsoft

Tomazas wrote: »

Bren we might come back, you never know... and yes it would be milsim only.


Shane add me to the list, and ill keep the rest of the lads updated.

It would be great to see you guys back Tomazas;);) from what I heard your site rocked.... just a pity I could not get down for a game:(

moggser

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Who gives a flying fcuk what you think or doubt:cool: your just a keyboard warrior who likes to dress up in bdu's, you have not attended a night game at Fingal..... we use 10 acres for our night games and at night that feels like 40 acres.

It's this attitude that turns people off from trying milsim because they think it's full of anal computer geeks or self appointed elitist know it all's!

im sorry but that might be the attitude that puts people off


ive not been to your site yet it's on "my to do" list but sure if thats the way you act ill think twice about it now looking at that post

im sure if it was a major issue you could of pm'd gerrout and put your angry thoughts into his pm box instead

gerrowadat

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Who gives a flying fcuk what you think or doubt:cool: your just a keyboard warrior who likes to dress up in bdu's, you have not attended a night game at Fingal..... we use 10 acres for our night games and at night that feels like 40 acres.

I tend to attend games when I know they're successful and will be a game I'd like to play. Let's just say that the stuff I've heard about what goes down at night games in Fingal means I won't be coming down any time soon. I'm sure the hardcore milsim players who used to come to night games will reconsider once you've sorted yourself out.

FingalAirsoft wrote:

It's this attitude that turns people off from trying milsim because they think it's full of anal computer geeks or self appointed elitist know it all's!

And as for midcaps I use midcaps in a regular skirmish never mind milsim/battlesim..... but I'm not going to enforce it on my customers, if they have them then that's fine, and if not no problem that's why we have ammo limits.

Ironic that you manage to contradict yourself with these two paragraphs. You go on about 'trying milsim', and then you describe something that isn't milsim. The whole point is adding realism -- if you let people play with hicaps and wearing what they want, it defeats the purpose, and the people 'trying milsim' don't get an idea of what it's about and go away with the wrong idea.

Ayrtonf7

Shane...And Thermo Id like to thank both of you for bringing me into milsim with opps and Ironwolf. This was my first Milsim experience and Id like to think I took to it pretty well. As long as people read the rules and have a fair understanding of whats expected I think new players arnt really a problem (a copy of the rules on hand would never be a bad idea either). However I agree that a few people can completly ruin a milsim event but at the same can be said for a skirmish as well.

Having a bit of RP experience behind me as well it just sweetens Milsim and all its concepts. I deffinatly think the LARP adds to milsim and makes it a better experience for me.

As with the monthly or evenly weekly (yeah its what I want for christmas) Milsim events Im all up for it. I think as somebody mentioned earlier it would be down to one or two sites (with a big enough player base interested) taking a leap of faith and calling ever 4th sunday a milsim event, and getting script writters, etc...

Not really sure what else to say except ill be PMing you my email and really do hope that we can all find a way to push milsim into a more regular thing in Ireland.

Tomazas

IMO there are 2 reasons why it is very hard to do something better than skirmish in this country:
1st is to get a good size land (I am talking at least 500 acres, with roads and etc.)
2nd - insurance.
insurance could be sorted but this size land it is almost impossible if not impossible.

than we have opened ABZ Irish economic climate was very hostile for us which has resulted a closure a year later. We had in our possession aprox 40 acres and we used every square inch of it, players are not keen to walk an extra mile yet, instead they want to squeeze a trigger. So ATM iam not really up to start something yet, but want to gain more xp from other MILSIM organisers abroad to see how they run the games, and maybe few years later will try to do something again.

gerrowadat

Tomazas wrote: »

IMO there are 2 reasons why it is very hard to do something better than skirmish in this country:
1st is to get a good size land (I am talking at least 500 acres, with roads and etc.)
2nd - insurance.
insurance could be sorted but this size land it is almost impossible if not impossible.

than we have opened ABZ Irish economic climate was very hostile for us which has resulted a closure a year later. We had in our possession aprox 40 acres and we used every square inch of it, players are not keen to walk an extra mile yet, instead they want to squeeze a trigger. So ATM iam not really up to start something yet, but want to gain more xp from other MILSIM organisers abroad to see how they run the games, and maybe few years later will try to do something again.

I hope you do, it's one of my biggest regrets that I could never get to ABZ, Shane and the lads always had great things to say. Hopefully it'll be back.

Stonewolf

gerrowadat wrote: »

I hope you do, it's one of my biggest regrets that I could never get to ABZ, Shane and the lads always had great things to say. Hopefully it'll be back.

Yeah, it was a really good site but I had a lot of trouble getting people to go there because as soon as I said "Portlaoise" I'd lost them

Even though it was just off the motorway.

Tomazas

Stonewolf wrote: »

Yeah, it was a really good site but I had a lot of trouble getting people to go there because as soon as I said "Portlaoise" I'd lost them

Even though it was just off the motorway.

Another problem, it seems Portlaoise is somewhere abroad, not 40 min away from Dublin. But who cares now....

Ayrtonf7

Another quick thought.

The two recent milsim events Ive attended have been a big hit and they wernt too far spaced out together. Prehaps its just a matter of getting these on a monthly basis ?

They were run very well and I havnt really heard any complaints to date so maybe therein lies the answer...although you can diss the craic that could be had at a weekend long event

gerrowadat

Ayrtonf7 wrote: »

Another quick thought.

The two recent milsim events Ive attended have been a big hit and they wernt too far spaced out together. Prehaps its just a matter of getting these on a monthly basis ?

They were run very well and I havnt really heard any complaints to date so maybe therein lies the answer...although you can diss the craic that could be had at a weekend long event

Yeah, I think it's just a case of critical mass - You can't explain the differences on a forum and expect people to understand straight up, I think it's a case of having as many people as possible try it. If it's not for you, then great, at least you've tried it.

I've been very encouraged by people playing at these events (I was at ops and at Iron wolf, and saw some of the same faces back). Starting small and building up as people who are actually into it for the extra game elements become regulars is the way, I think.

FingalAirsoft

gerrowadat wrote: »

I tend to attend games when I know they're successful and will be a game I'd like to play. Let's just say that the stuff I've heard about what goes down at night games in Fingal means I won't be coming down any time soon. I'm sure the hardcore milsim players who used to come to night games will reconsider once you've sorted yourself out.

I have honestly no idea at what you are trying to imply here instead of listening to idle rumours why don't you come down and actually try a night game a Fingal and then form an honest opinion.

Ironic that you manage to contradict yourself with these two paragraphs. You go on about 'trying milsim', and then you describe something that isn't milsim. The whole point is adding realism -- if you let people play with hicaps and wearing what they want, it defeats the purpose, and the people 'trying milsim' don't get an idea of what it's about and go away with the wrong idea.

If you want milsim to grow in Ireland you have to ease players into it, but by asking people to go out and buy midcaps/lowcaps just to try a milsim game and they find that they prefer a normal skirmish just would not be fair and it would also limit the player base to make the game successful...this is the reason that a lot of milsim games have a low attendance in my eyes. Restricting the ammo limits is just as effective.

If you want to go to pm to discuss the so called stories you have heard about the night games I run.... feel free. I've heard stories about you but I'm not going to post them here;)

andy_g

I've heard stories about you but I'm not going to post them here

I have heard stories about both of you. but thats besides the point.
This is in regards to milsims in dublin. Everone will have difference in opinions and to be honest getting new blood in is a good thing so saying you can only use mids/lows is absolute bull tbf.
Lads cut out the useless bitching and take it to pm. if its kept on thread take a holiday its not rocket science.

Ayrtonf7

gerrowadat wrote: »

Yeah, I think it's just a case of critical mass - You can't explain the differences on a forum and expect people to understand straight up, I think it's a case of having as many people as possible try it. If it's not for you, then great, at least you've tried it.

I've been very encouraged by people playing at these events (I was at ops and at Iron wolf, and saw some of the same faces back). Starting small and building up as people who are actually into it for the extra game elements become regulars is the way, I think.

Couldnt agree with you more. Hard to get anything done on an event level without people committing to it.

gerrowadat

FingalAirsoft wrote:

If you want milsim to grow in Ireland you have to ease players into it, but by asking people to go out and buy midcaps/lowcaps just to try a milsim game and they find that they prefer a normal skirmish just would not be fair and it would also limit the player base to make the game successful...this is the reason that a lot of milsim games have a low attendance in my eyes. Restricting the ammo limits is just as effective.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even on the rare occasions where I play with a hicap, I'm a lot less tactical and more trigger-happy. It's a world of difference. Just in my head beforehand I'd doubt it even myself, but going from experience it just works out that way.

tbh, a set of MAG midcaps costs 40USD off ehobby. If you're not prepared to make that small investment, then you're probably not all that interested in milsim, so stick with skirmishing. Hell, you could probably even sell them on here at a tidy profit if you ended up hating it.

The problem I have is with people who don't make that investment, but then continue ahead to use hicaps, call the teams something apart from 'red and blue' and call it milsim. It's preventing new sites that are running actual limited ammo/theme/milsim games from gaining ground because milsimmers are afraid to come out in case it turns out to be some windowlicker who rented some scrubland and uses the word 'milsim' like he knows what he's talking about.

FingalAirsoft wrote:

If you want to go to pm to discuss the so called stories you have heard about the night games I run.... feel free. I've heard stories about you but I'm not going to post them here;)

Ah go on. I need a good laugh.

gerrowadat

andy_g wrote: »

saying you can only use mids/lows is absolute bull tbf.

Is that your personal opinion, or the opinion of the boards moderators?

andy_g

that part is my own opinion in which i have forgotten to turn bold off any more questions or would you like to post your the boss andy photo for the larfs?

gerrowadat

andy_g wrote: »

that part is my own opinion in which i have forgotten to turn bold off any more questions or would you like to post your the boss andy photo for the larfs?

Ah, sure I don't need to now.

swiftblade

.......Ok moving on :rolleyes:

I would love to see more regular milsims. Maybe if some sites done every second saturday or sunday as a milsim. That would be great. Problem is it takes alot of organising. IMO forcing people to play with mid caps only isn't going to work.

I play reglary with mid caps and i love it. But its not for everyone. It needs to be introduced slowly. Restriting ammo limits but still letting people use what they have is a good start

Sod'o swords

I'd consider the set up the ROE had as milsim, same goes for other Milsim's i've played in HRTA. What i've played, read and heard about other sites is that they have Battlesims.

It's mostly they think up a long story line, try to mold the game to it and have an BB limit. I wouldn't consider that Milsim. I'm not knocking that, i've enjoyed several of those games and it's a stepping stone for many people to actual Milsim. Just some sites seem to see using the word Milsim as a selling point for their games and just use it when ever there is something bigger than a skirmish on.

Take note i haven't been to every game at every site, so don't go trying to eat me alive over it...

MerryDespot

Have to say I agree with you Sod O'Swords.
I've played a fair few of the milsim events organised at HRTA and I've played a fair few times at MAC - a complete different style of play to the skirmish sites I've played - and if the milsim games at HRTA (and the regular play at MAC) are milsim then milsim is what I'd prefer to play.
And that's the key isn't it - playing the game that you want to play. I'd rather go to a game where players are all out for the same thing. Not knocking skirmishing as a valid choice for those who like it. But if the two styles were tv shows or movies, milsim would be Generation Kill and skirmishing would be Die Hard - both have their merits, but it's ultimately a matter of choice.

evilrobotshane

Sod'o swords wrote: »

What i've played, read and heard about other sites is that they have Battlesims.

They don't, you know. BattleSim and TacOps are brand identities of TA Events, not generic terms, and I have that straight from the horse's mouth. Coming up with a vocabulary to describe the multitude of game styles that "milsim" conjures up in various peoples' minds is another project I'd like to see addressed sometime.

As regards magazine restrictions and all that, because there are so many ideas as to what is and isn't milsim, that'd be for the individual game writer to decide. Therefore, anyone who has an agenda to push will do best to get it exposure by producing and running games. That way everyone wins.

For my part, my games are real capacity in box mags (look it up), and I'll do what I can to help interested newbies meet those requirements to give it a go. That worked fine at Ops - and 90-round mags just aren't milsim.

Betty Blue

moggser wrote: »

im sorry but that might be the attitude that puts people off


ive not been to your site yet it's on "my to do" list but sure if thats the way you act ill think twice about it now looking at that post

im sure if it was a major issue you could of pm'd gerrout and put your angry thoughts into his pm box instead

Im Sorry Moggser, But You MUST Have a Very Long to Do List.......Please Read from the tart of the Thread, instead of Jumping in Halfway

JonnyTwoCombs

gerrowadat wrote: »

I tend to attend games when I know they're successful and will be a game I'd like to play.

How do you know the games on other sites wouldn’t be successful, or that the games held on these sites wouldnt be the type you like to play?

Is this statement based upon fact, or some ill-informed opinion?

gerrowadat wrote: »

Let's just say that the stuff I've heard about what goes down at night games in Fingal means I won't be coming down any time soon.

You make it sound like everyone strips naked, dances around a bonfire and performs some ‘Lord of the Flies’ type initiation on the newer gamers.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Ironic that you manage to contradict yourself with these two paragraphs. You go on about 'trying milsim', and then you describe something that isn't milsim. The whole point is adding realism -- if you let people play with hicaps and wearing what they want, it defeats the purpose, and the people 'trying milsim' don't get an idea of what it's about and go away with the wrong idea.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Yeah, I think it's just a case of critical mass - You can't explain the differences on a forum and expect people to understand straight up, I think it's a case of having as many people as possible try it. If it's not for you, then great, at least you've tried it.

Kind of contradicted yourself there.

gerrowdat wrote: »

Midcaps are also a must -- much as it might seem OMG elitist, it just wrecks the atmosphere to have half the people showing up in proper gear with midcaps, to play with a load of lads in hoodies with a roughed up AK spetz held together with cable ties.

The vast majority of what makes a game 'milsim' for me is the players. It only takes a small group of bull****ters showing up to break the 4th wall and turn it into a skirmish.

So in your opinion, having players try something involves them going to the expense of purchasing what you deem to be the appropriate, and no doubt high end gear.

The one thing I will agree with you on is that is the players, who make for a good MilSim.

It’s the mindset of the players rather then the cost or the amount of gear they own, that makes the game.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Somehow I doubt all that. It also helps if the site is a little larger than a slippery hillside and half a field.

Again, mis-informed! The site (size wise) would be on par with most of the Dublin area sites. Or perhaps you don't want to get any mud on your gear (great realism there) :rolleyes:

gerrowadat wrote: »

I hope you do, it's one of my biggest regrets that I could never get to ABZ, Shane and the lads always had great things to say. Hopefully it'll be back.

If you believe the site was so good, then how come you never supported it.

I’m sure Shane and the lads wouldn’t recommend a site if it wasn’t any good or if they weren’t sure that a good day would be had by all.

JonnyTwoCombs

Betty Blue wrote: »

Im Sorry Moggser, But You MUST Have a Very Long to Do List.......Please Read from the tart of the Thread, instead of Jumping in Halfway

I’m sure Shane was brought up better than that!

moggser

Yeah ok betty if ya say so

I passed comment on the other comment
That was made I know what the threads about
I'm reading what's goin on if what I said or
I have on my to do list bothers you so much
Do as I suggested and pm me if not why ya
Post random like that which is nothing to do with this thread kinda like this post in a way

Danin

Lads the mid cap issue is pretty straight forward IMO. I mean surely the clue is in the name Milsim. It's geared towards giving the player a more realistic immersion into the game and therefore gives them a more military & tactical based experience rather than the use of high caps and the skirmish experience.

I've read through the last two pages of posts since my own and I have to say we have completely derailed the tread with the same old arguments mid v high.

Why would you all let something as simple as using mid caps spoil your experience of milsim and all that goes with it, IMO its a natural progression from starting with skirmishing as your initial introduction to airsoft for a while and then looking or wanting more fom your days play.

I think we all need to take a step back from this and really look at what is being said, honestly we're talking about changing out mags during game play that's it in a nutshell and there is no argument that low to mid caps are more realistic and therefore to maintain a milsim experience organisers would want them used.

So why the big defence, because I honestly don't see one if you don't want to use midcaps in a designated milsim game then I don't think milsim is for you as the essences of the game would not suit using high caps from the outset and you would be disappointed as the action within the game is completely different.

It's similar to a child saying I don't like that food before they have ever tasted it, there is so much more to milsim than just a mid cap rule.

As for site size of site, we will always find an excuse weather its to far, to small, open, to enclosed at the end of the day it's down to players as they are the ones leading the way as far as gaming is concerned, that is players making the effort to get involved in the games. I personally have TBH if I walked out on to a site and the vast majority of the players were in jeans and ordinary civilian clothing and IMP they had made no effort to get involved bar turn up, I'd say I wouldn't take part. Although I haven't experienced anything like this to date.

Again, I feel it cannot be solely up to the organisers to provide everything or spoon feed players but a certain standard should be in effect for a milsim game.

I conclude with the idea that we should look at the caliber of player who advocates milsim, they are some of the most experienced, possibly player/site owners and the same players who possible lent you advice regarding purchases which you found invaluable or the same player you followed in a days skirmish and thought I want to play like that guy so by that rational is it that much of a leap to trust them when they say milsim is a great and different experience to try out.

Gatling

1 page of milsim

2 pages of run your mouthsim

so much for supporting shane's idea

Betty Blue

moggser wrote: »

Yeah ok betty if ya say so

I passed comment on the other comment
That was made I know what the threads about
I'm reading what's goin on if what I said or
I have on my to do list bothers you so much
Do as I suggested and pm me if not why ya
Post random like that which is nothing to do with this thread kinda like this post in a way

Ok Moggser That Fare Enought...
You Seem to be Attacking One Poster on this Thread and NOT the Post, With Regard to My Posting, I only Post When i feel its Needed , not because i can

andy_g

Betty Blue wrote: »

Im Sorry Moggser, But You MUST Have a Very Long to Do List.......Please Read from the tart of the Thread, instead of Jumping in Halfway

Betty blue dont back seat mod instead report the post.
here a warning for you.

evilrobotshane

Gatling wrote: »

1 page of milsim

2 pages of run your mouthsim

so much for supporting shane's idea

In fairness, I'm not too concerned about all that. It shows that people have strong feelings about the topic of milsim, and that's a good thing.

If what I'm hoping for here gets off the ground and we have the opportunity to run regular milsim games, the method for pushing an agenda will be to write and run games. Those who want inclusive rules to give beginners a taste, write those games and make them happen. Those who want strict limitations, write those games and make them happen. Otherwise it's just air. Maybe I'm being optimistic here, but I hope it'll separate the mouth from the trousers.

Betty Blue

andy_g wrote: »

Betty blue dont back seat mod instead report the post.
here a warning for you.

is it to late to do it now LOL

moggser

Betty Blue wrote: »

Ok Moggser That Fare Enought...
You Seem to be Attacking One Poster on this Thread and NOT the Post, With Regard to My Posting, I only Post When i feel its Needed , not because i can

The very same could be said for you
By that logic just jumping in half way to
Attack the poster and not the post

Now I'm not saying that you are because
It's not the way I read it

I commented on brens post because I felt
I didn't like what he says not because
I don't like Bren I've never met the chap
So I've no reason to try attack him personally..... See where I'm goin with this Betty,