MilSim Dublin

Danin

Betty Blue wrote: »

is it to late to do it now LOL

Betty Blue some of us have a valid interest in this tread and really don't want it spoiled by pages of useless back and forth posts so if you have an issue please voice it in PMs or to the mods and leave the tread open for people who want to discuss the inital post.

thanks

gerrowadat

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

How do you know the games on other sites wouldn’t be successful, or that the games held on these sites wouldnt be the type you like to play?

Is this statement based upon fact, or some ill-informed opinion?



You make it sound like everyone strips naked, dances around a bonfire and performs some ‘Lord of the Flies’ type initiation on the newer gamers.






Kind of contradicted yourself there.



So in your opinion, having players try something involves them going to the expense of purchasing what you deem to be the appropriate, and no doubt high end gear.

The one thing I will agree with you on is that is the players, who make for a good MilSim.

It’s the mindset of the players rather then the cost or the amount of gear they own, that makes the game.





Again, mis-informed! The site (size wise) would be on par with most of the Dublin area sites. Or perhaps you don't want to get any mud on your gear (great realism there) :rolleyes:




If you believe the site was so good, then how come you never supported it.

I’m sure Shane and the lads wouldn’t recommend a site if it wasn’t any good or if they weren’t sure that a good day would be had by all.

Keep grasping, I think there's a few straws left if you analyse my posts a little more.

JonnyTwoCombs

Oh! that’s a very logical response. :rolleyes:

Spetzcong

Bren, seeing as you, a site owner, have joined in on this thread, and been vocal about Fingal Airsoft's support of Milsim would you consider offering up 1 Sunday a month at Fingal for dedicated Milsim games run by the likes of Shane or Hivemind?

JonnyTwoCombs

Shane, if the site owner agree's to this.

Would you offer some form af hardcore MilSim or something more MilSim lite

TheDoc

Some of the dick wagging is unreal around here : /

I understand the idea that people feel investing in midcaps is unrealistic for the modern day consumer. I also understand the flip side and I'm more on the line of " you need midcaps".

Milsim needs realism. If there is a 300 ammo limit, there is a huge difference between having one hicap and having three mids. Subconsciously you are more careful with your fire and conservation with ammo, a hicap by nature you dont ever worry about it and just pull happy.

Also the fact a midcap user will have to reload three times during a firefight where as the hicap player can keep going. This has a pretty big effect , the littlest being the simple fact that forcing a reload means a break in fire. This encourages offensively to organise your firing line aswell as defensively, but gives opposing players the ability to gain ground.

€35 is not alot for an investment in six magazines as said if you don't like them, they can be sold easily.

I said above its absolutely fine having new players and new entrants come out and try the style and see how it goes. Most often or not the milsims I've been to in the past while has head a heavy mix of new with a lower number of experience but it was still great games and those players have come back. But it is kinda wrecking the buzz before the game to see.

The hope is that these players will invest in first of airsoft equipment and apparel of their own, and eventually midcaps and radios etc but more importantly develop through the style of play.

Creating some sort of portal or hub for the flow of milsim information opens opportunities. Like creating games that are milsim light, that maybe a little relaxed on the barriers to entry. Milsim hardcore for those who know what they are doing and enjoy real depth in games.
Even a milsim introduction game the odd time for new enthusiasts would be solid.
It also allows for the creation and implementation of STREAMLINED RULES?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? EMPHASIS!?!?!?!?!? It is hard enough having to learn all the different rules on different sites, I can only imagine what a new milsim player has to deal with learning all the differing rule sets.

Now I have to address something, and a perosn, who I really havnt paid much attention to in the past, apologies in advance.

How do you know the games on other sites wouldn’t be successful, or that the games held on these sites wouldnt be the type you like to play?

Is this statement based upon fact, or some ill-informed opinion?

Johnny, airsoft is a very small sport in reality. Stories usually move around the place, sometimes inflated with exageration and sometimes not. I'm pretty sure that I can pick up the phone or fire an email off to find out about any site or any event and see how it went, and know the information is accurate. People get way to defensive sometimes. I'll admit there has been times where I've decided to go somewhere on a particular day, phoned someone to get the scoop, got some bad words and then withdrawn. Theres nothing worse for me then playing a **** game of airsoft.
I'd also point out that of any sitatuation this has happened, it hasn't been due to any site owner, its being usually down to the player base.

Kind of contradicted yourself there.

Hardly. I fully agree. It is obvious to expand and evolve anything, you need to build it up. So of course we need new fresh milsimmers to expand. However there is a barrier to entry. And people need to understand this point and get it into their heads.

I go out of my way to play with midcaps and to play milsim. You coming down saying "**** that **** ill play like this" might be fine for you, but its probably wrecking the day for others without you even knowing.

Of course you dont simply just go out and buy everything you think you need then start, you go play one first. But you atleast have some sort of idea about the game, you should have played a few skirmishes first. Coming down to a big milsim game to do your own trick isnt exactly the best thing to be doing.

So in your opinion, having players try something involves them going to the expense of purchasing what you deem to be the appropriate, and no doubt high end gear.

Its not his opinion, its the opinion of pretty much every milsim enthusiast I've met, and the rules of any serious milsim game. Hicaps shouldn't be used in milsim games, simple as, there is literally no discussion here, I'm sorry, its a no no no. For reasons stated above and I could name many more. One hicap cost is the same as two midcaps. Most payers buy what 2-3 hicaps? thats 4-6 midcaps? I don't buy this bull**** about the cost. If you want to try milsim you should try midcaps, as its a pretty big part of the idea, and it adds realism.

Your comment at high end gear is a sly dig I wont really develop on. At a serious indepth milsim it does help if people have the proper attire and weaponry to add to the enviroment. But I'm not going to begrudge someone over their gun choice or use (in a serious way).

but coming down in runners and a hoodie with a rental isnt the best step into milsim for the player him/herself or the actual gaming enviroment : /

If you believe the site was so good, then how come you never supported it.

I wont give any defence for Gerrowadat, but I will for example pretend you said that to me.

My response?

Why should I?

I do believe Gerrowadat actually tried NUMEROUS times to try setup a team outing to the place in question. Probably was a problem with epic bailage and inconviniance but there is also the simple issue that there wasn't alot of information going about.

There is a lot of downbeat talk about how we have too much sites for customers. True in one sense, but the upside is I know where I can go for a good game, also see the point above about contacts. I can also know what days are the best for a site and even down to times.

The one time I went out of my comfort zone to try a new site I got bit in the ass, that place up around Drogheda or something, cant remember the name, wasnt open long, disastrous trip all round.

I like many am a consumer. Although it may sound calice, I need to know I'm getting value for money. That is were I am now. i'm not up for throwing money away at new sites, unless I hear some seriously good feedback. The amount of money I have wasted on **** days of airsoft is absolutely sickening. It is easily up past €1000.

I used to play twice a week, three times with midweek games. Thats the guts of €40-€60 a week. Nowadays not only can i not afford to do that but I probably wouldn't throw money away out of principle.

The point I'm making is personally my playing days of a random weekend are pretty much near the end. I'm going to stick to the milsim and the abroad events and if theres a bit of lol gaming on a site an odd weekend sure i'll tag along. But playing for the sake of getting out at the weekend I'm well pst.

A milsim hub/portal/community whatever is something I hope can get off the ground and get working towards. There is enough experience and collective genius here to make it work.

Start of a game a month, then if things get in demand make it two a month. If numbers are big enough who knows.

If it gets to the point site owners are swetting for the milsim money and shop owners aswell, I'd be ****ing overjoyed

getting new blood in is a good thing so saying you can only use mids/lows is absolute bull tbf

Of course new blood is neccesary. But its essential that the player be exposed to the genre and play style. Midcaps are essential. I just dont want to hear the debate anymore cause there is none in my head.

Bringing a new player out to milsim and handing him a hicap is doing a dis service to everyone.

Next time when hes on midcaps he might not like it or enjoy it.
For the game he is on the hicap, hes wrecking everyone elses buzz.

As a sniper I'd think youd understand of all. Whats seems less annoying.

Me firing my 300 rounds at you non stop for about a minute and you having your head buried hoping I dont swerve my gun the right way for the rope of BB's to hit you?

Or me firing 100 rounds off in a few seconds and giving you a break in fire to relocate or fire back?

That same scenario goes into absolutely every single type of game, type of site type of scenario.

And everyone one applied too, option 1 sounds to me like a **** day that would wreck my head.

Option two sounds like fun.



Thanks for reading, I'll keep tabs on thread. I'd also like to advise everyone I've taken on a scribe to aid in ensuring my posts reach new dizzy lengths.:cool:

Hivemind187

TheDoc wrote: »

Although it may sound calice

Callous.

Fire the scribe.

Shiva

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Callous.

Fire the scribe.

At one stage I was seriously considering petitioning the Oxford English Dictionary to replace the word "Malaprop" with "Docaprop"

evilrobotshane

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

Shane, if the site owner agree's to this.

Would you offer some form af hardcore MilSim or something more MilSim lite

Me personally? I think of hardcore milsim as involving a fair bit of hiking carrying sleeping gear and food on your back and time spent patrolling and stagging, and while I enjoy doing that it's not the type of game I write. Milsim-light I'd interpret as intentionally introductory.

The couple of games I've done in the past have been in a mildly cartoony science-fiction setting (post-apocalyptic) with very little in the way of actual organised military forces to speak of, so I find it hard to reconcile that with the word milsim (and we're back to that old problem again). Nevertheless, they had very strict ammunition limits of real capacities in box mags (look it up), faction costuming, punitive injury rules, multiple objectives, acted characters, backstory, open gameplay and so on.

While I might at some stage write a game in a contemporary military setting, it'll likely always have some slightly over-the-top elements (although I'd class the ultra-common race to prevent the terrorists from completing their nuclear bomb to be over-the-top). So, hopefully that answers your question in a roundabout way.

If the question meant you plural, referring to the group I'm trying to create here, the answer is that I'd expect the types of games produced to run the spectrum, and not only am I fine with that but it's something I'd like to actively encourage. If somebody's dead set on introducing interested beginners to milsim, then great, I get a bigger player base to play with if it works. If somebody else is dead set on strict rules and requirements, then great, I get to play a serious, immersive game with like-minded people.

This magazine capacity thing is an example of how there's different interpretations of what should be in a game. Doc being the easy one to point at because he's so verbose about it, but you can see that he's got his opinion on magazines and obviously no amount of back-and-forth here is going to change that. Personally I can see no difference between three one hundred-round box mags (look it up) and one three hundred-round winder, to me it seems like arguing over whether it's okay to fire your SCAR with the stock folded or not. To me the distinction is between real capacity and other.

The intention is to try to channel that energy into producing games. If someone wants a particular norm to exist then the way to do it is to produce games with the rules in question and create that culture. Nobody's opinion is changing from reading stuff up here. I like real caps maybe because that's how I got into airsoft - these things run deeper than mere reading, and reading won't change them. Playing might. Don't tell me I should use a particular magazine type - show me.

Daz1214

Shane, id be up for any milsim event thats on so if you could add me to the list please

moggser

evilrobotshane wrote: »

Don't tell me I should use a particular magazine type - show me.

if that dont end the Mid V's High debate right there i dont know what will

Jimkil

I have said it before and will say it again Airsoft is not a sport. In the most part it's a commerical enitity and will live or die by the euros spent on it. If u owned 500 acres u could play any format u want but u don't.
Skirmish is entry level for the masses and a great place to start. Brens night games are Battlesim and are a great stepping stone to Milsim. Each has it's place in the market place. The real question is how can u get enough of type of players to play on any given day. All tyes should have a rule set with expectations from the site and player. Let's try not and creat eliteism as it will only alienate people from progessing further and devoloping greater skill sets.

FingalAirsoft

Spetzcong wrote: »

Bren, seeing as you, a site owner, have joined in on this thread, and been vocal about Fingal Airsoft's support of Milsim would you consider offering up 1 Sunday a month at Fingal for dedicated Milsim games run by the likes of Shane or Hivemind?

Yeah Spetzcong,

I'd have no problem with that at all ... if the guys would like to come down and get a feel for the site before they commit to it, again that would be no problem.

I'm open to anyone who would like to give this a shot, every Saturday and Sunday I'm at Fingal and have been for the last two years.... so you know where to find me;);)



Bren:)

MagicIRL

Can we not all use our imaginations and pretend that a High Cap mag user is just an enemy with an LMG or better yet, Just look at it as a challange for all you MilSim pro's out there.

johnboyire

There is so many different types of “milsim” and explanations of different types of games.

Maybe it would be an idea to come up with an easy definition of what milsim should be? Its military simulation after all – simulation of military exercises using Airsoft replicas it’s never going to be the same as the real thing but the goal should be to try to be as close to it as possible within reason and to do it in an enjoyable, safe and legal way.

If I had to define Airsoft milsim in a few words as possible I would say: “Milsim is taking a Sunday skirmish to a higher level, using realistic equipment and using mission orientated storylines with like-minded players playing within a set rule base”.


If I had a list of “golden rules/requirements”
Ammo/magazine restrictions
Minimum of mid-caps – no highcaps – change mags it adds stress to the game.
Restricted number of support gunners/snipers looking at real world military squads as examples.
Unless it’s a week-end long or more event no loose ammo during play
Unlimited mid-cap/real-cap mags - i.e. what you are willing or able to carry

Other Gear
Uniforms – must have
A watch or stop watch - for medic rules
Death rag
Radio

Simple game rules – if you have to bring a manual into the game with you theres too many rules!
Some kind of simple storyline but based on a main objective for each side. i.e. capture a strongpoint and hold it, defend a bridge. Then build in sub missions for each side. And if people are up for it build some larp into the story, it really does add to the experience.

Who wins? Important for some and not for others. both sides have an opportunity to complete missions. without some drive to do something or achieve some kind of goals it makes the simulation a little pointless - having an objective is important in milsim. At the same time Mil sim is not handing out gold medals and silver medals when the event is over.
Have a laugh, maybe a bit of bragging and exchange war stories and handshakes at the end.


If there was some kind of easy framework for milsim to work from, which can then be as simple or as complicated as people want to make it, it could help make milsim easier to play and more accessible as there is a common ground for everyone to see what the basics are. I am just throwing out some ideas here so if everyone could start doing the same maybe a common theme will appear.

Personally if there was a milsim event one Sunday a month on a rotating basis between sites that can: afford/have the capacity for mil sim, that can attract say 40-60 players (there no point in planning massive events start small at first) that would enforce gear restrictions and be able to keep the day moving, I would actually pay more than the normal Sunday rate to play there!
if I turned up and the hoodie squad where there with their high caps, it would cheapen the experience for me and the effort put into the rules and storyline and making the effort /spending the money to get my own gear together for the event.

Think about it its not elitist its making an effort (just as a disclaimer - yes I have high caps – yes I use them during a normal Sunday skirmish – yes I too started playing in a hoodie and runners!! and i am definitley not claiming to be an expert )

Maybe a few positives can be plucked from this post – wishful thinking I know.

evilrobotshane

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

I'd have no problem with that at all ... if the guys would like to come down and get a feel for the site before they commit to it, again that would be no problem.

That's very generous, thanks a million. A potential problem with taking over a normal weekend day though is that folks who are used to the normal run of things will still be turning up expecting the usual, and depending on the nature of the game in question might need to be turned away, or accommodated in some alternative clever way. It's one reason it's very difficult to expect a site to turn itself over to the specialist crowd on a weekend.

Thanks again for the offer, I'll certainly try to get to one of your games and have a look and a chat and a go.

Danin

Our sport is in its infancy we as players and with the help of the great work the IAA have done are now legitimate and recognised. As experienced players (we are regardless weather you like it or not) ambassadors of this fledgling sport in the way we conduct ourselves on our local site, when we travel aboard and when we discuss issues here on boards.

IMO, I think we have enough to deal with regarding most radio personalities, politicians and general misinformed do-gooders constantly painting a picture of us being gun crazed, war loving lunatics one step away from going postal.

Unless we as a community become more proactive and tolerant of each other we are IMO going to cause ourselves untold problems in the future and we will have no one but ourselves to point the finger at and blame.

By the way, I'm not immune to this type of behavior and I'll be the first to raise my hand and say yes, I've had my moments but I'm making an effort to change regarding how I post here and the content I submit.

If I where a new person to the sport you can be guaranteed I'd be directed to boards eventually as a portal of information, what would I find, possibly over 90% of every tread descends into bickering regardless of the topic.
Does this do us justice ..... I don't think so
Would it fill me with confidence to take up the sport .....again I don't think so

We need to start recognising that we are responsible for the message we send outside our community, anyone can log in and read a tread.....

Unless we put away these constant petty squabbles we will get no where and never be recognised as a proper legitimate sport and considered valid.

The more experienced players whether you play milsim or skirmish are looked upon as role models for the up and coming generation weather you believe this to be true or not look at what you are showing them to be the right way to behave regarding your fellow players

my message is "think before you post" bite your lip if you have to and above all can we please for the sake of the sport we all have a passion for try to get beyond this type of conduct.

thanks for listening
regards
Danin

MerryDespot

Well said Johnboy.
For me it's all about choice - milsim players chose to play milsim and I don't see why they should be forced to compromise the basic ground rules (any of them - not just mags - I personally agree with shane that a real cap loadout is best) if they chose to attend a site where they're enforced. I'd also happily pay more for milsim only play where it is structured along the lines of uniform restrictions, proper command structure and objectives.
Introduction games aside, if people want to treat a milsim game like a skirmish then ask yourself why you're there? Otherwise it becomes lowest common denominator which is awesome for none and bland for all.
And before anyone starts off again about elitism, it's not like that for me. Anyone who has met me at a site or through adverts should know that I'm as open to talk to new players as pros - I just think that if you want to try something different you must accept that it's different!

evilrobotshane

Hivemind187 wrote: »

In fairness Shane, RoE were the first to start the trend of deep, evolving, player interaction driven story lines, complex rules sets, use of NPC's, complex physical props, Black-Ops missions etc.

Absolutely, and sorry if I sold it short, I was just picking out the elements that were most obviously unique from the perspective of the grunt on the ground. For example, there was certainly a command structure there, but with low numbers it didn't play as much of a part of the feel of the game as it does at, say, Berget. It did scale very well though and I think people who are after company-level stuff should be aware that more than once we played Jebrovia with three or four on each side and it was still loads of fun.

The reason I didn't want to help out with getting it running again this year was because it'd kill me to have it happening and not be able to play myself.

Spetzcong wrote: »

I would leap at the opportunity to suckle on the milsim teet once or twice a month.

...eww.

Puding

Can I just make a point that I believe strongly

milsim is not some higher form of airsoft, it is just a differant style of play , but no better than any other

skirmish/speedball/milsim/filmsim there all just differant ways of player non are better or higher forms , all areas have there place and all areas can be played at a high level but also can be played at a very low level

Daz1214

Puding wrote: »

Can I just make a point that I believe strongly

milsim is not some higher form of airsoft, it is just a differant style of play , but no better than any other

skirmish/speedball/milsim/filmsim there all just differant ways of player non are better or higher forms , all areas have there place and all areas can be played at a high level but also can be played at a very low level

thats a great point, very well said

johnboyire

Puding wrote: »

Can I just make a point that I believe strongly

milsim is not some higher form of airsoft, it is just a differant style of play , but no better than any other

skirmish/speedball/milsim/filmsim there all just differant ways of player non are better or higher forms , all areas have there place and all areas can be played at a high level but also can be played at a very low level

thats a good point and , you can go out and try to be the very best sunday skirmisher you can be, invest in gear practice during the week for your sunday game etc or just rock up grab a rental and have a laugh, I am not trying to say one is better than the other, but they are different,

also you can have alot of mil-sim elements in a sunday skirmish but your unlikey to have some elements of a sunday skirmish in milsim (i am talking hoodies, rentals, no comms, high caps etc the usual churn of boards gripes)

but since I was trying to be proactive around milsim and get a good debate going, how would you define it? say if i snipped a bit and added a bit to this:

If I had to define Airsoft milsim in a few words as possible I would say: “airsoft Milsim is taking a Sunday skirmish to a higher level airsoft using realistic equipment and using mission orientated storylines with like-minded players playing within a set rule base in an effort to take it as close to real world mil sim as realistically possible”.


i dont want an over complicate things but at the same time i think it is a good idea to differenciate from a sunday skirmish - would you expect a a whistle to blow in the middle of a milsim event so eveyone can abandon their hard fought positions to go and have their lunch?

its a silly example but you can see what i was getting at right?

Hivemind187

evilrobotshane wrote: »

Absolutely, and sorry if I sold it short, I was just picking out the elements that were most obviously unique from the perspective of the grunt on the ground. For example, there was certainly a command structure there, but with low numbers it didn't play as much of a part of the feel of the game as it does at, say, Berget. It did scale very well though and I think people who are after company-level stuff should be aware that more than once we played Jebrovia with three or four on each side and it was still loads of fun.

The reason I didn't want to help out with getting it running again this year was because it'd kill me to have it happening and not be able to play myself.

Lol.

But the highlighted part is precisely the problem. Those that are able or experienced enough to run/write/organise games would rather be playing (and too bloody right they should!). The trouble is that they also constitute the majority of those who are MilSimmers.

Without a stronger representation of players (circa 150 total in Dublin, giving you a rough 50 regular player contingent) its very difficult to do anything on a reasonable scale MilSim wise. It's certainly not commercially viable in any way shape or form.

Puding

Milsim
A game of airsoft where the rules are adjusted to create an accurate simulation of military operations.

Short and to the point and how I see it.

MagicIRL

Can we (The Airsoft community) not merge the idea of "Propper MilSim" and "Casual Mislim" together to attempt to induct new players into the world of MilSim. Doing this we could build up a large pot of active MilSim users and once this is achieved, more stricter rules could come into effect.

Example: Start off allowing 1 High Cap and No Comms. Every needs a BDU. As the player base grows, begin to change the rules to better suit MilSim. 1 High Cap becomes 0 - Mid Caps Only. Eventually everyone is required to have Comms.

This way everyone gets to experience a sort of MilSim (Without having to splash out too much cash to see wheather they like it or not. Propper MilSim benefits from the new influx of players who will enjoy the game type and will come back and then feel comfortable enough to go out and buy Comms/Mid-Caps etc.

Hivemind187

MagicIRL wrote: »

Can we (The Airsoft community) not merge the idea of "Propper MilSim" and "Casual Mislim" together to attempt to induct new players into the world of MilSim. Doing this we could build up a large pot of active MilSim users and once this is achieved, more stricter rules could come into effect.

Example: Start off allowing 1 High Cap and No Comms. Every needs a BDU. As the player base grows, begin to change the rules to better suit MilSim. 1 High Cap becomes 0 - Mid Caps Only. Eventually everyone is required to have Comms.

This way everyone gets to experience a sort of MilSim (Without having to splash out too much cash to see wheather they like it or not. Propper MilSim benefits from the new influx of players who will enjoy the game type and will come back and then feel comfortable enough to go out and buy Comms/Mid-Caps etc.

How often?

johnboyire

Puding wrote: »

Milsim
A game of airsoft where the rules are adjusted to create an accurate simulation of military operations.

Short and to the point and how I see it.

i like it, short and sweet,

its the rules bit thats the tough bit ,

i think its a good idea for players to make suggestions on this to have a common list of acceptable rules,

then its down to sites who are interested to develop this futher, if three sites for example can agree a set of milsim rules tweaked for their sites if need be and rotate a once a month mil sim day, that would be a great option for players to have and still give sites regular skirmish income.

then is up to sites to sell the idea and if they are serious about it risk a sundays income to try it out. then is down to the players to turn up.

Tomazas

After reading through it seems the biggest problem is - MIDCAPS???? common lads, the game it self as Shane mentioned before is not about squeezing a trigger anymore, its about carying the tasks which you would in a real life environment, like scheduled base perimeter patrols, recon patrols, sabotage enemy base, AA launch site or whatever, even eating while playing (no scheduled breaks in the middle of the game)... it could go on forever sky is the limit. I think in real life you will want to complete your tasks without being compromised by your enemy, so why where is so much debate about ammo?

In my own xp i have played a game there i didn't get a chance to open fire through the day but it didn't affect my satisfaction.

Bernie Mac

After reading through all of that which is, for the most part, the same point reposted over and over, and stupid off topic squabbling here is my opinion.

Milsim is a different style of playing (as mentioned before) airsoft just like GAA football is a different way of playing with a ball to soccer, the concept is somewhat the same just different rules. Neither are better or worse they are just different. And being different you require different equipment to play the game.
.

A side from all that which has no place on this thread (IMO) I think the concept of setting up a group that notifies people of different game style events coming up is a fantastic idea and i am extremely happy to help out in any way shape or form.

Puding

johnboyire wrote: »

i like it, short and sweet,

its the rules bit thats the tough bit ,

i think its a good idea for players to make suggestions on this to have a common list of acceptable rules,

then its down to sites who are interested to develop this futher, if three sites for example can agree a set of milsim rules tweaked for their sites if need be and rotate a once a month mil sim day, that would be a great option for players to have and still give sites regular skirmish income.

then is up to sites to sell the idea and if they are serious about it risk a sundays income to try it out. then is down to the players to turn up.

to be honest no point trying to get tied up on rules, rules can varry depending on what the organizers are trying to do and this is not a bad thing. There are common traits between rule sets but they should be left to the organisers, milsim is not a rule set it is a way of playing rules are a tool to lay the right foundation but that is all

MagicIRL

Hivemind187 wrote: »

How often?

It all depends on how fast you want your "Propper MilSim".

Inari

I'd argue that reloading is an important real life situation, which is where the magazine issue comes in. Personally I'd rather see midcaps before BDUs, as the mid caps tend to change the mindset much sooner than a BDU.

The way I see it, is that MilSim requires certain equipment, and if you would like to play it, then you need that equipment. Just the same as Airsoft itself. It doesn't limit players from giving it a go, as where there's a will, there's a way. The majority of Airsofters would help out someone if they wanted to play, be it in lending comms, mags etc - so I can't see the equipment being too limiting. It all comes down to frequency - how often are the milsim events run. The more regular, the more attractive and word of mouth can do its work.

Burnellafant

evilrobotshane wrote: »

It's been becoming more and more apparent to me that while there's a decent amount of interest in milsim airsoft, there's not much focus or organisation to it, in Dublin at least. There's no dedicated sites nor much in the line of a community, and I think that's making it hard to develop airsoft beyond the 'cheaper paintball' or commercial or whatever we want to call it style of play. It seems to me that where milsim has a strong following it also has a centralised structure like a club.

I think Dublin has the population to sustain an active milsim scene, it just needs a bit of organisation to make that happen. What I'm sort of picturing is a group of interested people who'd like to be notified when there's a milsim game coming up, and that the group would run, say, one game a month. Anyone who's interested in being involved in doing more, such as working on rule sets, writing game scenarios, creating props and so on would be involved in sub-groups doing those things so those not interested don't have to be bothered by it. It'd be nice to think that eventually this'd allow for stuff that isn't practical at the moment, such as maybe an increase in themed uniforms and guns, advanced medic rules, radio code usage and so on.

Of course, the other advantage of this is that it'd be easily available to people who for whatever reason don't subscribe to Boards, which'd open the population pool up quite a bit.

I haven't put a lot of thought into this yet, but posting here is a start. If you'd be interested in, for starters, notification of upcoming games, PM me your email address and I'll add you to a list, and even if nothing else comes of it that's something.

Do people think there's anything to be gained from this? Any ideas on format or scope? Is there any advantage to making it more of a general thing than just confined to a specific geographical region? Post your thoughts, please.

Hey man,

That sounds like a great idea, any chance of getting in on some of that?

Cheers,
Niall

Hivemind187

MagicIRL wrote: »

It all depends on how fast you want your "Propper MilSim".

You misunderstood me (you are also trying to be cheeky but I'll ignore it).

My point is that this has been done and tried before. The problem is how often you would have to run "introductory" style games, diminishing things for those who have been knicking around for a while in the effort to attract newbies into the world of MilSim. Trust me, it's very difficult to get seasoned veterans to play let alone new people.

MagicIRL

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You misunderstood me (you are also trying to be cheeky but I'll ignore it).

My point is that this has been done and tried before. The problem is how often you would have to run "introductory" style games, diminishing things for those who have been knicking around for a while in the effort to attract newbies into the world of MilSim. Trust me, it's very difficult to get seasoned veterans to play let alone new people.

I feel slightly offended that you took my post as "cheeky". I can't see how you found it so, unless you think that many posters here are out to get you?
I was unaware it was tried before. Perhaps 3/4 "Into" games a year would be just about right if there were regular MilSim games happening around the country. I just dont like the idea of "diving in the deep end" when it comes to anything involving money.

Perhaps I could have worded my prior post to better suit what I ment to say, But typing on the iTouch is hard enough as it is. What I ment was; If you want regular MilSim games, with a large player base, then the more intro games around to get newbies into the spirit of MilSim the faster the more "hardcore" MilSim events will take off.

Edit: Why not have a look at Tony McCann's new site in Wexford for MilSim themed games? "The site is a 78 acre wood and 8 acre open field" - That would have to be big enough for MilSim games (Providing of coarse the site owner allows MilSim games to use his site)

delta-boy

Irish Airsoft, as a whole, isnt ready for MilSim type games. Come on, you know what I mean? But then again, thats my own personal opinion. Before knocking me, take a look around your safe-zone on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and you'll soon get the picture.

For the moment, I feel home grown MilSim should be left alone for a couple of years, and leave it to the big wigs in the UK, Europe etc... I love LARP and MilSim very, very much. But unless we do a very organised games every six months or annualy as a big, big-time event, I dont see this working.

MerryDespot

delta-boy wrote: »

But unless we do a very organised games every six months or annualy as a big, big-time event, I dont see this working.

I hope you're wrong dude - really would like to be able to get out to more milsim games. Let's at least try though...

thermo

delta-boy wrote: »

Irish Airsoft, as a whole, isnt ready for MilSim type games. Come on, you know what I mean? But then again, thats my own personal opinion. Before knocking me, take a look around your safe-zone on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and you'll soon get the picture.

For the moment, I feel home grown MilSim should be left alone for a couple of years, and leave it to the big wigs in the UK, Europe etc... I love LARP and MilSim very, very much. But unless we do a very organised games every six months or annualy as a big, big-time event, I dont see this working.

a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step........

Daz1214

i think there is plenty of scope for milsim in this country, it can be played on various scales and i think many of the sites could easily accomodate it

Puding

thermo wrote: »

a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step........

have to agree, but people do not seem to be able to let airsoft walk at a normal pace and for things to develop, they seem to think we need to run

what ever anyone tells you airsoft in Ireland is small, milsimers are a percentage of that population your taking a small number and making it even smaller, things will come in time but that the key it will take time

I would love to be able to travel around Ireland to milsim events but considering the small amount of free time i have and the cost i can not gamble I'm afraid, so i go to the UK, know the question you have to ask is this necessarily a bad thing? tbh i don;t think so, does airsoft in Ireland need big milsim events? will we be able to attract people from abroad? i don;t think so with are 1 joule limit and lack of phyros there is not much incentive to come over hear from the uk let alone Europe, uk has access to sites we can only dream of and that im afraid is not going to change?

milsim can happen in this country but its not going to be big 50v50 game, it does have the scope for some interest small scale squad v squad milsim and small squad tactics, you just have to be realistic in your expectations

Hivemind187

The big barriers to decent MilSim in Ireland are as follows;

1) Too small a community - like it or not, were only a handful and only a tiny percentage of those are regular MilSimmers.

2) Insurance - our liability legislation, health & safety etc is utterly out of control here to the point that it strangles any start ups who arent absolutely loaded.

3) The 1 Joule Limit - Not such a bug-bear for us (in fact it could be argued that it was beneficial) but its going to dissuade the international contingent whether you like it or not.

4) Lack of land and facilities. While it may be possible to source 500 acres of land it is virtually impossible to source land with and facilities or useful construction on it.

5) There is only a handful of people willing to pitch in and actually provide the necessary logistical support for games (marshalling, radio control, plot writing etc etc ad nauseum) - this is a side effect of point 1.

6) The Irish infrastructure doesnt help matters with lousy roads to the areas which would generally support large scale MilSim activities and sod all public transport to cater to them either.

T.w.a.T.

I can't be more agreed with the last two posts.
I was about to write similar post, but don't know why I didn't, maybe 'cos I didn't have long time ex in Irish airsoft comunity like most of you and my opinion is not very important.

Shiva

T.w.a.T. wrote: »

maybe 'cos I didn't have long time ex in Irish airsoft comunity like most of you and my opinion is not very important.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Your opinion counts as much as anyone's, no matter how long they've been playing. In fact, its new opinions that help the community grow and change, and not stay stagnant and entrenched.

Dont be afraid to post your thoughts.
And be prepared to have to defend them...we're all bitches in here

OzCam

As experienced players (we are regardless weather you like it or not) ambassadors of this fledgling sport in the way we conduct ourselves on our local site, when we travel abroad and when we discuss issues here on boards.

+1. This is why I'm remembering the external audiences - plural - when I post something which some might think a statement of the obvious.


We had this discussion a couple of months ago, with most of the same arguments. I haven't found much in this thread so far that's very constructive. Some of the same ridic (TM) posts, and some of the same sensible ones. Apart from Shane's original idea, several pages were a waste of time & bandwidth. Ho hum.

Anyway, I have a few suggestions:

• I don't really have a hangup about hicaps in lighter MilSim games. There's no tactical difference between a hicap and a belt-fed gun. If someone wants to try a more realistic style of game and turns up with a hicap, make them fire from static positions. Problem solved. Also, they have to rewind after every 30 rounds anyway - even I can change mags on an AUG faster than that. Armalites are even quicker. If they like the games, they can buy midcaps for the games with tighter rules. The ammo limit is a much more significant limitation IMO.
• HTRA have it about right at the moment in allocating Bank Holidays for MilSim. This is a reasonable set-aside for an individual site. But everyone can't schedule events on the same day, so please use my calendar to see if someone's already running a MilSim on whatever date you have in mind. That's what it's for.
• If you're posting an event on boards please include the What, Where, When, Why and How Much in your first post. Making people wade through a number of posts to figure out whether they can go or not is just plain rude.
• Unless everyone on the field is about at the same level of experience, it's really important to break teams up to preserve some semblance of balance between the sides. They won't like it, but sometimes it's necessary.
• The more props, the better. It really aids the immersion.
• Scenario writers - please, please, please keep the rules simple and clear. It's really difficult sometimes to remember which rules you're using today, especially if you were using different ones yesterday. *

(* I put on my dead-hat at Thermo's game in two incidents when I shouldn't have. Sorry, I was tired.)

JonnyTwoCombs

johnboyire wrote: »

If I had a list of “golden rules/requirements”

Ammo/magazine restrictions (Agree)

Minimum of mid-caps – no highcaps – change mags it adds stress to the game. (Agree)

Restricted number of support gunners/snipers looking at real world military squads as examples. (Mmmm, in two minds on this one, as real world small unit tactics depend a lot on having greater firepower)

Unless it’s a week-end long or more event no loose ammo during play (Agree)

Unlimited mid-cap/real-cap mags - i.e. what you are willing or able to carry (Agree)

johnboyire wrote: »

Other Gear
Uniforms – must have (MMMmm again, in two minds on this. While the hoodie / jeans crowd can spoil it for some, its unrealist to think modern military only face off against other military)

A watch or stop watch - for medic rules (Agree and very helpful, if they idea of open world / free roming were to take off)

Death rag (Agree)

Radio (Again, modern miltiary are more often than not engaged in combat with rag tag groups)

Some good points made there! :eek:

munster_mafia

After reading this ive just gone and bought myself midcaps! All for giving it a go. Out of interest is there many sites in Ireland that could handle a milsim?

Ayrtonf7

All sites to me have the potential. Its just a matter of the players/organisers involved.

sliabh

Sorry I am late to the party. +1 Kudos to Shane for this suggestion. Some people talk about mil-sm and some get things done. Shane is in the latter category. I have been helping him with the mil-sim library and hopefully we can get that up and running soon.

Personally I would like to see a dedicated mil-sim site, possibly with it's own specialised discussion board but that is a job for another day.

I did want to to say something about sites. A few people have suggested that sites could rotate a dedicated mil-sim day between them. I can't see this happening for a few reasons. Mainly because all the sites are independent, and they are commercial entities. At the moment a well attended mil-sim in Ireland is 30 players. Most sites would see a drop in income organising a game specifically for that size of a group, especially when they won't be selling 3000bbs to each player over the course of the day.

Getting sites to back Mil-Sim in the short term means looking at what are otherwise quiet days. This is one reason why HRTA runs them on Bank holiday Mondays. The alternatibe is to schedule them for Saturday's which is usually a less busy day. It may not suit players, but if you want it locally, some sacrifices have to be made

Spetzcong

sliabh wrote: »

Sorry I am late to the party. +1 Kudos to Shane for this suggestion. Some people talk about mil-sm and some get things done. Shane is in the latter category. I have been helping him with the mil-sim library and hopefully we can get that up and running soon.

Personally I would like to see a dedicated mil-sim site, possibly with it's own specialised discussion board but that is a job for another day.

I did want to to say something about sites. A few people have suggested that sites could rotate a dedicated mil-sim day between them. I can't see this happening for a few reasons. Mainly because all the sites are independent, and they are commercial entities. At the moment a well attended mil-sim in Ireland is 30 players. Most sites would see a drop in income organising a game specifically for that size of a group, especially when they won't be selling 3000bbs to each player over the course of the day.

Getting sites to back Mil-Sim in the short term means looking at what are otherwise quiet days. This is one reason why HRTA runs them on Bank holiday Mondays. The alternatibe is to schedule them for Saturday's which is usually a less busy day. It may not suit players, but if you want it locally, some sacrifices have to be made

I agree with you on most of your points, however, I think that part of the problem with milsim attendance is the fact that it has been run on evenings and less busy days. I'm not a site owner, so I don't know if sacrificing the revenue from a Sunday's gaming is viable, but I think it's fair to say that most if not all site owners in the country started up sites because of a love of the sport, although sites are commercial operations, they're not exclusively there to make money, they're also there because the site owner(s) love airsoft and want to see it grow in the country. It's not like we want anyone to go bankrupt over this, but if there are site owners who would like to see milsim grow, and if taking a small hit in revenue for one day out of a month isn't going to break the bank or make things too finacially difficult for them then I don't see the harm in us asking. I mean if the answer is "No sorry, milsim just can't bring in the kind of money I need to make that day" then that's fair enough but there's also the chance that milsim will take off, and that 1 Sunday donated to milsim could turn into a very busy day and a nice little money earner for the site.

Saturdays are certainly an alternative to Sundays, to be honest, once it's a weekend day I don't mind which one it is, I just think that in order to gather up enough steam to really start catching on milsim needs to happen more often than waiting on Bank Holidays will allow. I think a milsim portal is a fantastic idea, and will certainly help push the development of milsim gaming but I think it's equally important that we have regular milsim games being held both to give new players the opportunity to try milsim and keep old hands interested enough to keep putting the effort in.

One really good thing that a milsim portal would do is allow us to get an accurate idea of just how many people there are in the country who would have an interest in milsim at this stage.

hrta

Another point no one has said, mil-sim players can always book out the site for the day, as i have done many a time's before for players to run there own game's.

Paul.