Film Music: Classical Pop or an Art in itself?

funky penguin

I started to properly undertake music when, at the tender age of 20 I heard Rachmaninoff's infamous Csharp minor prelude. I took piano lessons a week after it and never looked back.

However, a couple of months into my lessons, I started listening to orchestral pieces, and I couldn't get enough of Hans Zimmer's Gladiator suite. It was perfection to me, and I knew that a composer I must be!

So, I taught myself theory and all that and went to college and now at 25 I have a BMus. (There's a point to all this, don't worry! :P )

Flim music got me interested in Western 'Art' music so much so, that I mistakenly referred to Zimmer's music as 'classical' once. I know now my terminology was wrong, but what struck me was the definitive 'are you mental, its way out of the classical league' kind of response.

Aaaaanyway. I went through college studied my ass off, listened to all the greats from the Gregorian chanters to Bach, to Beethoven, to Debussy to Eric Whitacre etc.

So now, I find myself at my desk, sorting out....my film music collection, listening to the soundtrack to 'Inception'.

I love it. I don't care what anyone thinks, I love it. I love all my film music (well, most of it. Just the good ones :P )

But its made me think. I've almost come full circle, and I can't help but think bach to that person who so derisively dismissed Zimmer's Gladiator music. From experience, I've seen the snobbery that can destroy not only potential music making, but I've actually seen it destroy a friendship. Its not only one sided as well, nothing annoys me more than a pop/rock/jazz fan calling me a snob because I'm in the mood to listen to a Brahms Piano concerto. I listen to Tool! I love Arctic Monkeys! I HAVE TAKE THAT ON MY COMPUTER!!! :eek:

Phew....right....point.....?

Basically, what are peoples opinions on Film Music in relationship to Western 'Art' Music? Personally, I don't think enough of it is played in the concert hall. Its all around us, all the time. People love the music. It has so many memories for people of all ages and musical backgrounds. I'd imagine the concert hall would see a decent amount of bums on seats if the NSO played a night of Hans Zimmer's music. (It was done recently for John Barry. Full house, radio broadcast....Great night).

But don't stop there....movie nights once a month? Wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. Look, bottom line is, I think film music isn't that far removed from western art music, but I honestly think its evolved into an art in itself and it would be insulting to BOTH genres to call it Classical music.

phew.

Anyway, what I'm listening to now, so judge for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihF_aXi-Huk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUqRoWUVvJk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEneeYiuzEg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7mt8F4Yiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15M3pheKfbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8CUdK3HY0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt0UuNpUqK4

So yeah. Eh.....I suppose rant over? Although it wasn't really a rant. maybe.

The Mad Hatter

I don't see the point in classifying music into genres. I wouldn't rate Zimmer too highly (you know he got his pants sued off by the Holst estate for ripping off Mars from the Planets Suite in Gladiator?), but Bernard Herrmann, Ennio Morricone, Yoko Kanno and Jonny Greenwood have all written outstanding film scores (as have Aaron Copland and Sergei Prokofiev, to name a couple who made the transition in the opposite direction). The classical establishment seems to reject out of hand any film composer who tries to cross the boundary into "art" music, no matter the quality. It's the same as with pop music, when they listen expecting Bach and then complain when they don't get it - it's absolutely absurd.

Yes, a lot of film music is showy and simple and bland-but-loud, but that's a problem with specific pieces, not with the genre as a whole.

Nolanger

That Inception music above sounds like guitar music played by an orchestra. Most film music is derivative, bland, and unoriginal. It's mostly showy stuff with little substance. If you think that stuff is good why stop there? Some of the music on computer games or TV commercials are just as 'good'.

funky penguin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I don't see the point in classifying music into genres. I wouldn't rate Zimmer too highly (you know he got his pants sued off by the Holst estate for ripping off Mars from the Planets Suite in Gladiator?)

Yeah, I remember that, and I hate when it happens in music. There are some striking similarities between the two! I dunno whether he intended it or not, but it doesn't take my enjoyment away from it anywho. I actually think his Inception work is better.

You kinda said what I was thinking about with the categorization, it's always seemed like a waste of time, but I can't seem to help myself sometimes! Maybe I just need three labels: 1) Music I like 2) Music I understand 3) Music I have yet to understand/like.

btw +1 on Greenwood excellent score for There will be blood. I also recently got my hands on a CD of Morricone and Yo-yo Ma doing some re-works of his famous pieces. I especially love their work on The Good the Bad and The Ugly.

Nolanger wrote: »

That Inception music above sounds like guitar music played by an orchestra. Most film music is derivative, bland, and unoriginal. It's mostly showy stuff with little substance. If you think that stuff is good why stop there? Some of the music on computer games or TV commercials are just as 'good'.

Most commercial music is either pop, film, or 'art' music anyway. Very rare you'd have something composed especially for a commercial.

Computer games have actually spawned some really nice compositions, especially over the last 15 years. Alot of RPG's especially have lovely soundtracks, well thought out and complimentary to the story. I have a good few tracks on my computer from them as well. Similar to Film Music, but not enough to put them in the same category. Besides, as Mad Hatter said, it is a bit of a waste of time categorizing music.

BTW what do you mean by 'guitar music played by orchestra'? Not an attack or anything, just genuinely interested in what you mean by it.

funky penguin

I feel (after a conversation with a friend about it!) that I should point out that I am NOT comparing Classical and Film.

In fact, I'm trying to highlight the opposite, that they're compared far too much, and separate genres in their own right.

Nolanger

Sounded like repetitive, orchestrated 'strummed chords' played in tempo. That's stuff is miles away from quality classical music. Just get the impression that film composers are regular, 'nice guys', with good team-playing skills and are well-trained. Nothing wrong with that but there's a big difference between what they're do and what a true artist composer does.

The Mad Hatter

Actually, the main theme from Inception was very cleverly composed. The song Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien by Edith Piaf is very important in the film, as is the idea of altered time states and, well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVkQ0C4qDvM

funky penguin

Ha! Was just about to post that vid....

Repetitive notes are integral to that score, but I see you're point.

I do have a problem with it being compared to classical 'art' music though. It wasn't my intention here, but I can see how it could be misconstrued......I just didn't know where to post it I suppose. I just didn't want to post it in Music and get generic 'Zimmer rulez lolz' answers.

My argument is that Zimmer et al are artists in their own right, and shouldn't be compared to Western Art music. They are two different (not by miles, granted) disciplines.

funky penguin

I'm just thinking then, where does that put the likes of Prokofiev.......

Hmmmm.....well I suppose if he was writing specifically for film, then its function is different to music he wrote for its own merit. Perhaps thats too black and white then.

kawaii

I think that the real weakness of film music, compared to 'classical,' is it's subordinance to the picture with regard to narrative. When removed from the film it lacks any development of interest, and at best is just a bunch of catchy tunes.

In my opinion, the probably most defining aspect of classical music as a genre is how refined it is formally, ie dramatic musical narrative. While this isn't always the case, it is what makes a lot of masterpieces great, particularily from in the late baroque-classical periods (incl. 'conservative' romantic composers such as Mendelssohn and Brahms), is their tightly knit construction.

To me this gives them a crystalline perfection, an infallibility, that is found in no other genre. I think that's, for me at least, what makes classical music so satisfying.

funky penguin

Very good point, the film itself is what distinguishes it from other art forms.

There are definitely soundtracks out there that are just plain boring without the film, with moments of greatness (Howard Shore's LOTR's sound track comes to mind). Just my opinion of course, I think what he did for that trilogy was trojan work.

Similarly though, I could cite a piece such as one of Liszt's symphonic poems or Debussy's Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune, based wholly and purposefully on a picture, idea, or block of text. Symphonie Fantastique even. I suppose the question of the composer's ability is then the arguement.

I think there are definitely film composers capable of creating stand alone music based on a film as well. Its just another 'text'.

Likewise, as you said, not all art music is as well defined as the Western Canon's masterpieces, similarly with Film music. I'd go a little further and say quite a lot of art music is this way, it's by no means a small minority. Similarly, film music has buckets of blandness but bright diamonds among the rough.


By the way, the reason you said you enjoy classical music is one of the main reasons I love it as well, the level of structure, use of themes, harmonic progressions and most importantly, use of matarial is what makes it a brilliant genre.

However, I don't think it is unique in Western Art Music. I think it may have the most concentrated collection of composers that managed to make it so engaging, but I refuse to believe other genres don't have the ability to drive a brilliant narritive through their music.

Just my 2c though!

Sanguine Fan

kawaii wrote: »

I think that the real weakness of film music, compared to 'classical,' is it's subordinance to the picture with regard to narrative. When removed from the film it lacks any development of interest, and at best is just a bunch of catchy tunes.

This may be true in some cases, perhaps in most cases, but there are exceptions. For instance, I regard John Barry's 'Dances With Wolves' soundtrack as one of the very greatest collections of orchestral music I have ever heard. Great film, but the music stands on its own. Similarly with much of Bernard Herrmann's film music, especially the Hitchcock scores.

To me the best of modern film soundtracks continue the tradition of the 'incidental music' written for stage productions in the nineteenth century. For instance, Mendelssohn's 'Midsummer Night's Dream', Grieg's 'Peer Gynt', and Schubert's 'Rosamunde'. IMO, these are all masterpieces and, while I would not place Barry's DWW in the same category from a musical development perspective, I find it just as enjoyable as the others.

Unfortunately, many film composers today work against tight deadlines and have to come up with maybe an hour or more of original music very quickly. No wonder people like John Williams recycle classical pieces. Hans Zimmer is another offender. But when someone like Ennio Morricone or Miklós Rózsa is given time and space by a sympathetic producer to create, they can often come up with true masterpieces. For me, Ben-Hur and virtually any of the Sergio Leone spaghetti western scores are in the top rank and will probably outlast the films for which they were written.

Very interesting thread.

Nolanger

Might as well start a thread comparing top Hollywood screenwriters with famous playwrights?

The Mad Hatter

Nolanger wrote: »

Might as well start a thread comparing top Hollywood screenwriters with famous playwrights?

Hollywood =/= film.

Dirigent

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

you know he got his pants sued off by the Holst estate for ripping off Mars from the Planets Suite in Gladiator

He's got previous.

The original (Carl Orff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdgmGvC5S4

The ripoff (Hanz Zimmer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0NSnJnoEY

OK, no music is truly original. But to claim credit for someone else's work sucks.

rcaz

I haven't read through the thread yet (I will!), but I wanted to post 'cause I think it's very interesting, and this stuck out at me;

Nolanger wrote: »

Some of the music on computer games or TV commercials are just as 'good'.

One of my favourite composers is Nobuo Uematsu, he was the house composer at Squaresoft and did the music for a lot of the Final Fantasy games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn71hIsm0U8

You can tell he's a massive Stravinsky fan. That particular one is from one of the final scenes of Final Fantasy VII (God it's such a good game...), I know the "SEPHIROTH!" choral part seems like needlessly epic overkill, but in context it's suitable.