How Many Clicks to Zero

FISMA

Lads,
I am not sure if you've ever thought about this, however, I would appreciate it if you could provide feedback now, or the next time you re-zero your kit.

Suppose, you just set up your scope, rings, mounts, and all. How many clicks, windage and/or elevation, does it take to get zero at 100ya?

0-2, 2-5, 5-10, whatever. I am just looking for an idea.

Anybody out there with a rule of thumb? Like, 2 clicks for a properly lapped setup.

Thanks in advance.

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Lads,
I am not sure if you've ever thought about this, however, I would appreciate it if you could provide feedback now, or the next time you re-zero your kit.

Suppose, you just set up your scope, rings, mounts, and all. How many clicks, windage and/or elevation, does it take to get zero at 100ya?

0-2, 2-5, 5-10, whatever. I am just looking for an idea.

Anybody out there with a rule of thumb? Like, 2 clicks for a properly lapped setup.

Thanks in advance.

Mate of mine does it in 2 but fires a third to be sure.
He is an amazing world class shot though.

I generally take between 3-5, used to be more.
Until I perfected a method of zero'in at home
I Zero'd a scope about 7 times in the past 3 months, you do get quicker at doing it the more times it's done.

Cass

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for as you seem to be asking about how many MOA/clicks people have on their scopes for their 100 yard zero, but going by Tack's answer it seems you are looking for amount of shots.

To be on the safe side i will gve you both.

I usually mount the scope as normal. Do the normal zeroing process of looking through bore at a fixed target and adjusting the scope to match. When i have my zero i always "zero" the turrets. When i first zeroed the Savage, before i got the 20 MOA rail, i was on about 23-24 MOA for my 100 yd zero. When i switched to a 20MOA rail i now have 7.5MOA for my zero.

Its a common misconception that a 20MOA rail gives you exactly 20MOA and that all that is needed when you replace your existing rail for a 20 MOA rail is to reduce your previous settings by 20 MOA. Not true. Any adjustment, movement, repositioning of the scope requires a completely new zero. Yes, if you are using the same ammo, and you have your new zero the MOA/clicks/adjustments for the different distances will be the same. So if it took 4 clicks (1MOA) to go from 100 yds to 200 yds then using the same ammo with your new zero it will still take 4 clicks (1 MOA). All that has changed is the amount of MOA/clicks that is required to get your zero.

Also a good tip us when you have your zero and you have zeroed your turrets dial the elevation turret down until it can go no further while all the time counting the MOA/clicks. If for some reason you forget your zero, the adjustments you've made, whatever, you can dial the turret right down to bottom/zero then simply count up the pre-recorded amount of MOA/clicks back up to your zero. Handy.

Lastly, if you were asking about the amount of shots then 3 is the most anyone should need. Place the rifle on a clamp/rack/ rest. Bore sight on a fixed target. Check the scope positioning. The elevtion turret should be at its lowest and the windage turret should be centralised. As in if the scope has 50 MOA then it should be at 25MOA. Adjust the elevationa and windage turrets until you are happy that the scope and bore are in the same direction and (by your eye) on the target. Fire 1st round. You should at least be on paper. If necessary go to target and measure the distance from POI to the bull. If you know the distance no need to measure. Asjust the scope the necessary clicks/MOA. Fire a 2nd shot. You should be very close if not in the bull. If close make the final adjustments. Fire a 3rd shot. You should be in the bull. Its no harm to fire a 3rd shot even if your 2nd is in the bull. A confirmation if you will.

How many MOA/Clicks it will take to get your 100 yd zero is not a common amount or factor. Each rifle and scope combo will have its own settings that will be somewhat unique to that setup. The same applies to the same setups of different people. I know 2 other lads with the same setup as me. None of our rifles have the same MOA/clicks for a 100yd zero.


Not sure how relevant some of the above is, but better to be safe than sorry.

Tackleberrywho

Ezri you should be writing for a living!

If I take my scope off it is normally 2 clicks off when reseating

So 2 shots if the scope was already zero'd and 2 clicks.

However FISMA
You asked the question vaguely hence my vague answer
I'm a very instinctive person, Ezri is far more methodical than I

I have Target type turrets on both Nightforce so scope adj is relatively easy for a gobsheen like me

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If I take my scope off it is normally 2 clicks off when reseating

Thats another kettle of fish.:D

I had to take of the Fathers scope this evening. I will rezero it again tomorrow. Now i did not take the scope out of the rings merely removed the scope, rings and all. When i secured the picatinny rail i remounted the scope and rings in the same position as i took them off. However the scope will not be zeroed. I know i could be looking at anything up to 2-3 minutes to get back on zero not to mention adjusting the windage adjustments also.

Even though the scope for all intensive purposes, is back in the "exact Same" position i guarantee that it will not still be on zero or even a click or 2 out. I can hope, but from previous experience it won't be.

FISMA

Sorry lads, to clarify, clicks = turns of scope knobs.

True, we would need to know MOA's to clicks ratio, I was willing to go with the standard 1 click = 1/4MOA.

Heard a knowledgeable person claiming that when he sets up a scope, he never has more than four clicks to get scope and bore aligned at 100ya.

He was trying to impress upon me the "need" for lapping et al.

Just wondering on the feasibility of the two clicks statement.

Ezri,
WRT "The elevtion turret should be at its lowest and the windage turret should be centralised."
You shouldn't get to the middle of both turrets? You want windage at the lowest?

Also, thanks for the well thought out post. I just got the new rings, bases, and lapping kit. I am going to put the old scope on and want to do everything the right way, get out to the range, and be ready for the fortnight.

My scope has 300 clicks for both turrets, very bored one night, off of the beer, lot's of free time. I have both clicked to 150 - right in the middle. I was under the impression that this is how the scope came from the factory and how I should mount it on the properly lapped rings.

Please advise.

Thanks

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Thats another kettle of fish.:D

I had to take of the Fathers scope this evening. I will rezero it again tomorrow. Now i did not take the scope out of the rings merely removed the scope, rings and all. When i secured the picatinny rail i remounted the scope and rings in the same position as i took them off. However the scope will not be zeroed. I know i could be looking at anything up to 2-3 minutes to get back on zero not to mention adjusting the windage adjustments also.

Even though the scope for all intensive purposes, is back in the "exact Same" position i guarantee that it will not still be on zero or even a click or 2 out. I can hope, but from previous experience it won't be.

The Burris Mounts for me are a ~2 clicks left/right and low/high after reseating

I'm very careful tightening down the bolts getting the tension the same, I will Buy /Borrow a Torque wrench soon.
If just to see does it really make a difference if they all are the same newton/ft-lb settings when reseated

My spell checker tells me reseating is not a word BTW.

Well "I" have coined it now!

Is yer POPS still selling the rifle?
He was not a happy camper the last time i spoke to him about it.

Got me tempted to cross into the Dark side of FTR :D

bunny shooter

FISMA wrote: »

.......How many clicks, windage and/or elevation, does it take to get zero at 100ya?

0-2, 2-5, 5-10, whatever. I am just looking for an idea.

Anybody out there with a rule of thumb? Like, 2 clicks for a properly lapped setup.

Thanks in advance.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

........However FISMA
You asked the question vaguely hence my vague answer.............

FISMA was pretty specific I thought :P

Tackleberrywho

FISMA wrote: »

Sorry lads, to clarify, clicks = turns of scope knobs.

True, we would need to know MOA's to clicks ratio, I was willing to go with the standard 1 click = 1/4MOA.

Heard a knowledgeable person claiming that when he sets up a scope, he never has more than four clicks to get scope and bore aligned at 100ya.

He was trying to impress upon me the "need" for lapping et al.

Just wondering on the feasibility of the two clicks statement.

Ezri,
WRT "The elevtion turret should be at its lowest and the windage turret should be centralised."
You shouldn't get to the middle of both turrets? You want windage at the lowest?

If the mounts are the same you should be in ball park if scope on and off.
Yer man who you ref'ed

Give him a scope rifle etc. have all the settings at the bottom and see how he goes.

The only lapping i ever was involved in was when a fella passed me in a 5k run!

I changed from Swaro to Nikon and the first shot was 7 ft high and 3 foot right.

If i did not have a spotter i would be still there today lol

Bore sighting it @ 25 yards will eliminate a lot of clicks IMvHO

patsat

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Bore sighting it @ 25 yards will eliminate a lot of clicks IMvHO

Technically it will eliminate no clicks!:P

But yes it will help hugely getting it on paper for 100 yards, I got a laser boresighter which I find handy for that!

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Sorry lads, to clarify, clicks = turns of scope knobs.

That was not a point of confusion, what was is the exact info you were looking for.

True, we would need to know MOA's to clicks ratio, I was willing to go with the standard 1 click = 1/4MOA.

As this is "standard" for most scopes its easiest to go with these values.

Heard a knowledgeable person claiming that when he sets up a scope, he never has more than four clicks to get scope and bore aligned at 100ya.........................Just wondering on the feasibility of the two clicks statement

To be brutally honest it sounds like utter crap to me (no offence intended). I have never, NEVER, met anyone that can "guesstimate" the clicks/MOA needed for their zero before putting the scope into the rings and onto the rifle. In essence that is what he is saying if your statement is correct. From what i'm reading he can adjust the scope so well before mounting that he needs 2-4 clicks to get smack bang on target. I really don't know anyone "that good".

Now if its a case of he uses 4 adjustments rather than clicks then thats completely believable. I use 3 adjustments, however the clicks/MOA in those adjustment vary.

He was trying to impress upon me the "need" for lapping et al.

Lapping is often needed or a good idea, but only for ring/scope alignment. Has nothing to do with getting a zero. It creates more surface contact between scope and rings and gives truer alignment. I stand to be corrected on that.


Of course there is always the possibility that i'm reading this completely wrong and i'm way off base. In which case please correct and clarify for me.

Tackleberrywho wrote:

Bore sighting it @ 25 yards will eliminate a lot of clicks

You will use the same clicks regardless. If you zero at 25 you use a lttle less elevation and windage clocks. Then you push out to your 100 yard zero. You still have to "fine" tune your windage adjustments and then up your elevation adjustments. When you mount a scope, whether you zero at 25yds and move out to 100yds or straight to 100yds you will still use the same amount of clicks. Some may find 25yds easier, thats a personal thing. I use 100yds from the get go.

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Ezri,
WRT "The elevtion turret should be at its lowest and the windage turret should be centralised."
You shouldn't get to the middle of both turrets? You want windage at the lowest?

I do not know what others do, but what i have always done and others seem to do the same or follow suit is the following.

Have the elevation turret bottomed out or at its lowest, as in no elevation at all on the turret. Honestly i would say there is no problem with having some clicks/moa on it i prefer to start "from scratch". This also helps especially if you are using an MOA rail. It will let you know that you are able to get a 100yd zero. A lad i met recently had some MOA on his scope and was adjusting and adjusting until he finally "bottomed out". Turns out the MOA rail was a 40 and he could not get a 100yd zero. If he had the scope at zero he would have saved himself time and some annoyance.

In relation to the windage. I always suggest it be "centralised" as this gives you the same amount of adjustments in either direction. If you have the scope windage adjusted all the way to one side (say right) and its a 60moa windage scope you may need to come across 25, 30 or even 40 moa to get a zero. If you have it centralised though at say 30 moa then all you need do is adjust left a bit or right a bit.

Also if you zero your rifle as i do by bore sightings then looking through the scope the crosshairs will definitely be off the target if the windage is all the way off to one direction.

clivej

Well the way I will do it is first centrilise both the turrets. If they are not marked with a cebtral arrow then I will use a plumb line as in my tip section tip http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055431546

Then I would dial in up elevation of about what the drop will be of the ammo used from a balistics chart, about 4 clicks. Then fire off some zeroing shots at 100y/m.

I have found it makes a BIG difference which way round the mounts are mounted ie. mounting screws on the right or right hand side.
EG. with the burris xtreme mounts I was many clicks from the centre mark but when I reversed the mounts a was only 2 clicks off centre.

I would always zero the turrets after zeroing a scope.

tac foley

Don't forget that with Nightforce scopes, and with some others, I have no doubt, that the zooming magnification will affect the APPARENT MOA.

IOW, the distance you see at 100m subtended by the MOA mark is only the same at one level of magnification - it will be out at any other, and not valid for using the MOA marks on the graticule to estimate ranges.

On my NF NSX scopes the MOA adjustment is only valid at one magnification setting - x22 - and this is clearly marked on the zooming ring by its own separate engraving.

tac

Vegeta

tac foley wrote: »

Don't forget that with Nightforce scopes, and with some others, I have no doubt, that the zooming magnification will affect the APPARENT MOA.

IOW, the distance you see at 100m subtended by the MOA mark is only the same at one level of magnification - it will be out at any other, and not valid for using the MOA marks on the graticule to estimate ranges.

On my NF NSX scopes the MOA adjustment is only valid at one magnification setting - x22 - and this is clearly marked on the zooming ring by its own separate engraving.

tac

That's the disadvantage of a second focal plane scope all right.

On topic, I find that Tikka and Sako rifles with their own brand mounts, Optilock. take very little adjustment to get them on the bull. Every time I have zeroed a Tikka or Sako it has been a joy compared to my CZ .22lr and the brothers Remington

Finally my brother has got a Nightforce for his 300 win mag and again he tried to zero it without bore sighting it and it is a mile off.

So some day this week we are going to try and bore sight it but I think we are going to need shims. Windage is way off and want to keep the scope as central as possible as highlighted by the always helpful Ezridax

I have shimmed my .22lr before but I used a pin/small needle between the mount and the rail. Don't want to do something as cheap and nasty with my brother's rifle so any recommendations on material(tin foil, photo negatives???) and techniques?

clivej

Vegeta wrote: »

That's the disadvantage of a second focal plane scope all right.

On topic, I find that Tikka and Sako rifles with their own brand mounts, Optilock. take very little adjustment to get them on the bull. Every time I have zeroed a Tikka or Sako it has been a joy compared to my CZ .22lr and the brothers Remington

Finally my brother has got a Nightforce for his 300 win mag and again he tried to zero it without bore sighting it and it is a mile off.

So some day this week we are going to try and bore sight it but I think we are going to need shims. Windage is way off and want to keep the scope as central as possible as highlighted by the always helpful Ezridax

I have shimmed my .22lr before but I used a pin/small needle between the mount and the rail. Don't want to do something as cheap and nasty with my brother's rifle so any recommendations on material(tin foil, photo negatives???) and techniques?

There is a shim chart in the tips section if it's any help.

CJhaughey

Vegeta wrote: »

I have shimmed my .22lr before but I used a pin/small needle between the mount and the rail. Don't want to do something as cheap and nasty with my brother's rifle so any recommendations on material(tin foil, photo negatives???) and techniques?

I usually use thin professional double sided tape when mounting my scopes, it stops any movement and metal to metal contact
You could worry about it compressing and altering zero but I haven't found it to be a problem and it sticks very well.

Tackleberrywho

The reason i say 25yard boresighting is fairly simple, you will be able to see the target through ther bore at 25 yards and adjust accordingly

If you use a NF scope or similar with a Zero'ing magnification please use it.

You'll discover this has a 2 fold benefit as the Moderator on my rifle gets hot after a few shots and @32 mag all you see is mirage!

Then when you have rifle secured in place click it onto the white dot you have as your zero point, I find tipex on cardboard works quite well.

When you squeeze off your first round you will then have LESS clicking to do to get the rounds on target.

Hence after 3 shots-5 you should be ready to go hunting

Others prefer 100 to bore sight, I just can't see a white dot through the bore at that distance

tac foley

Vegeta wrote: »

I have shimmed my .22lr before but I used a pin/small needle between the mount and the rail. Don't want to do something as cheap and nasty with my brother's rifle so any recommendations on material(tin foil, photo negatives???) and techniques?

Over here in backwards UK/Can/USA we tend to stick to stuff we know - so most all of us use 35mm film as a shim.

I have three different bore-sighting devices, too, two lasers and one graticule type, in calibres from .17 up to .50. Using the laser last sunday at 25m in a new CZ we were right on with the second shot - more luck than anything else. All you have to do is to put the crosshairs on the shot-hole....

These days I just shoot at paper.

tac

SpringerF

I always shim my scopes to zero at the desired range, with the scope at the manufacturers settings.
Therefore I do not use any clicks to zero the rifle.

Not a difficult thing to do.

Optilocks dont take a whole lot of adjustment to make them right.
Tapered rails make up for large differentials with shims for the final bit.

Tackleberrywho

SpringerF wrote: »

I always shim my scopes to zero at the desired range, with the scope at the manufacturers settings.
Therefore I do not use any clicks to zero the rifle.

Not a difficult thing to do.

Optilocks dont take a whole lot of adjustment to make them right.
Tapered rails make up for large differentials with shims for the final bit.

What ranges & what reticles are you using ?

I'd only think of using shims if the scope was of an obscure size and the mounts were too low.

Either that or I am completely misreading your post!!

SpringerF

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

What ranges & what reticles are you using ?

I'd only think of using shims if the scope was of an obscure size and the mounts were too low.

Either that or I am completely misreading your post!!

ranges = can be whatever you desire or capable of

reticle type= makes no difference

Scope obscure size = dont know what this is.

The alignment of point of aim with point of impact is a mechanical function quite capable of being carried out by any 2nd year apprentice fitter

johngalway

I think what SpringerF is saying, if I read it right, is he's shimming the scope to use the "optical centre" of the scope. Where the windage and elevation clicks are centered as much as possible. I've heard of this before, but not for quite a while.

Tackleberrywho

SpringerF wrote: »

ranges = can be whatever you desire or capable of

reticle type= makes no difference

Scope obscure size = dont know what this is.

The alignment of point of aim with point of impact is a mechanical function quite capable of being carried out by any 2nd year apprentice fitter

I'm not a fitter by profession so i'll have to take your word on that.

So you fire a shot, with the rifle in a vise measure how much the scope needs to be raised ad shim it make the intersection of the x,y axis or windage and elevation if you prefer are on the target?

Unless for extreme long rang I can't see any advantage of this as all decent scopes have enough elevation for 1200 yards AFAIK as anyone I know who shoots it has a similar set up to my scope.

What I meant by obscure scopes was, when the Swedish mausers became popular here fellas shimmed the scopes as the bolt handle of the mauser, even if it was made with an elbow still collided with the scope.

that was the only Time i saw fella' shimming scopes.

Or if the Mounts were not high enough like with one of those Zeiss 6-24x72 jobbies.

I'm not trying to catch you out here.

just seems like a lot of work adding shims when have a rev or a turret will do same.Unless perhaps if you want to shoot in a gale or something?

SpringerF

Unless for extreme long rang I can't see any advantage of this as all decent scopes have enough elevation for 1200 yards AFAIK as anyone I know who shoots it has a similar set up to my scope.

Do your research

What I meant by obscure scopes was, when the Swedish mausers became popular here fellas shimmed the scopes as the bolt handle of the mauser, even if it was made with an elbow still collided with the scope.

Do your research

Hint:
You may start your research here

http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

Tackleberrywho

SpringerF wrote: »

Unless for extreme long rang I can't see any advantage of this as all decent scopes have enough elevation for 1200 yards AFAIK as anyone I know who shoots it has a similar set up to my scope.

Do your research

What I meant by obscure scopes was, when the Swedish mausers became popular here fellas shimmed the scopes as the bolt handle of the mauser, even if it was made with an elbow still collided with the scope.

Do your research

Hint:
You may start your research here

http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

As I currently use burris tactical rings and i was never much off zero when I mounted the scope. i also have not suffered from glare.




Scopes perform at their optical peak when all internal lenses are properly centered. For that reason, Signature Rings accept Pos-Align Offset Inserts

However, as I am rezero'ing next week with my new HPS 125grain .308's:eek:
I might test this theory and see how far my Nightforce is out of alignment.

The area of optics does interest me, as I have worked in that field to a small extent, so i would be keen to learn how much of an angle is required to get my scope and POI matching.

I am curious how Only Burris employ it though as the concept could be copied easily as it is not an original idea to shim, how they do it may be, but with a few subtle changes any fitter or Tool maker should be able to knock a shim or two out using a positive and negative scale.

I think I might know a chap who could make one of these for me. To fit my BURRIS tactical Extreme mounts.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

Interesting Video, reminds me of Maths I studied in College!

SpringerF

Scopes perform at their optical peak when all internal lenses are properly centered.

Have a nice day Tack

Tackleberrywho

SpringerF wrote: »

Scopes perform at their optical peak when all internal lenses are properly centered.

Have a nice day Tack

SpringerF i learn lessons every day.

I decide before i had my midlife crisis i would get some more college in me and i have a year more parttime to go.

I still would be of the OPINION that this is not critical unless the scope is mad out of alignment and used at ranges in excess of 500 metres.

However I will investigate further, and if you know anything about me, you will know I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to getting my rifles to shoot better these days. I've spent a lot of time on this.

So I may invest 8 hours of my free time on this cause.
I bought the Nightforce scope new and there was about 4" of adj if my memory serves me, but that was 4 or more years ago now so I can't be precise.

I'm getting great groups the way she is so i must be doing something right.

i never maintained I was an expert, Far from. Shooting and rifles is my passion.

And Like many things in this life

The more one learns, the more one realizes that they actually know feck all!!

thats the great thing about boards, handy hints are picked up from, time to time;)

Have a nice day Spring

bunny shooter

Cheers SpringerF ........... bet your not confused now

FISMA

Lads,
Thanks for all of the ideas, and the new headaches. :pac:

I am still a bit confused. We all agree that the windage turret should be centered, correct? However, there appears to be differing opinions as for elevation.

I would think that there's an equal likelihood that the elevation would have to be up'd as opposed to down'd. That's why I believed it should be centered as well.

I thought that both being as close to center gave the best sight picture and that either being rotated to any extreme was not the optimum situation.

Also, tac_foley has gone and messed everything up! Actually, what he stated was my next post. At what magnification do you get zeroed?

I try and use the magnification at which I am likely to shoot - 6x on my 3-9x40mm. Just feels right. Others swear by big magnification zeroing and still others on little. What do you do.

Thanks again to all of the posters, you're knowledge and experience is first class. I think we should make a webPage or site out of some of these ideas to keep them in a handy place.

Ez - you should consider writing/publishing/whatevering a shooting/hunting publication.

Vegeta

FISMA wrote: »

Lads,
Thanks for all of the ideas, and the new headaches. :pac:

I am still a bit confused. We all agree that the windage turret should be centered, correct? However, there appears to be differing opinions as for elevation.

I would think that there's an equal likelihood that the elevation would have to be up'd as opposed to down'd. That's why I believed it should be centered as well.

I thought that both being as close to center gave the best sight picture and that either being rotated to any extreme was not the optimum situation.

For any sort of varminting, longer range plinking and target shooting with a centre fire rifle you will more than likely dial in the elevation and windage for more consistent results.

Wind can blow from the left or the right and therefore it does indeed make sense to leave the windage adjustment centred to allow for equal amounts of left and right correction

But as a bullet leaves a gun it is only dropping, so lets say you throw on the scope and zero it at 100 yards. Beyond 100 yards you will only ever need to dial the scope up.

So why would you centre the elevation turret when you'll rarely dial down from your 100 yard zero?

The lads could be right too the scope may perform best , optically, while centred but it's not something I have looked into. It's not something I'd worry about either as any target shooting, long range plinking and varminting I have done have all been in broad daylight where optical performance is not a limiting factor.

Also, tac_foley has gone and messed everything up! Actually, what he stated was my next post. At what magnification do you get zeroed?

I try and use the magnification at which I am likely to shoot - 6x on my 3-9x40mm. Just feels right. Others swear by big magnification zeroing and still others on little. What do you do.

What focal plane is your reticle in?

If it is the first focal plane I don't think these are effected by impact shifts through the various magnification levels

Second focal plane reticles are (don't have a clue to what degree but have read it online before, not accurate enough myself to notice it I think) and high end ones have this calibrated out at the factory. Does anyone with a Nightforce scope know if this is the case for them, i'd imagine so at their price.