Do criminals Train ?

Zambia

Hi

I have this idea it maybe true it maybe false. But I would not mind putting it out there. Certain criminals I had the displeasure of knowing in Ireland use to go inside for a few months. On exit from prison they use to have bulked up considerably. Now this did not happen to every crim but at least a few.

Now the assumption was that given three square meals a day and laying off the drugs a bit did this. The other assumption was these blokes got on the weights in prison as well.

My question is are weight lifting and exercise facilities avialible in Irish or UK prisons? I assume yes by means of exercise machines or free weights? Even though I believe free weights are being phased out.

If so how do members feel about this? In that they have to fit an exercise regime around a heavy alternating shift workload and other commitments.

I for one really felt that as a taxpayer I did not want to provide a service to criminals that.
1: I had to pay for via taxes
2: I have to deal with the bulked up result.

At the end of this I was going to post the question again in politics to see how the general public feel about this. I just want to see are my assumptions correct.

Thanks in advance
Zambia

kensey

Yes they are available in Irish and Uk prisions.
I feel quite similar in that I don't believe valuable tax-payers money should be spent on providing these "people" with a free facility which one would have to pay for on the outside. Yes, prisoner health is important but it's taking the pi** with the wide range of gym equipment available in prisons. I think, now more than ever prisoners should be made contribute back to the society to which they have committed wrong. If that means making desks for schools or state offices, something should be contributed back towards the cost of care (feeding, staffing etc.)

I believe the way it is now is that prisoners don't even have to leave their cells for meals, no compulsory work inside and as much playstation as desired!

Where is the sense??

twowheelsonly

Yes, a gym is not only available in all Prisons but it is in fact mandatory (afair) to provide a gym. Same with a library etc..
A good many prisoners do work out while inside but the majority do not. A good, balanced diet plenty of rest and a usually vastly reduced drug intake ensure that nearly all prisoners will bulk out while in prison. It's certainly exceptionally unusual to see any losing weight!!!
Personally, looking from the inside, I'd prefer to see them working out in the gym or doing manual work as it concentrates their minds and burns up any pent up frustrations. From a staff point of view that can only be a good thing but I do understand where you're coming from.

BTW, many people felt the same way when in cell televisions were introduced but they have been a major success as regards reducing the suicide rate and relieving boredom.

deadwood

Thierry Henry trains three days a week.

Turner

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Yes, a gym is not only available in all Prisons but it is in fact mandatory (afair) to provide a gym. Same with a library etc..
A good many prisoners do work out while inside but the majority do not. A good, balanced diet plenty of rest and a usually vastly reduced drug intake ensure that nearly all prisoners will bulk out while in prison. It's certainly exceptionally unusual to see any losing weight!!!
Personally, looking from the inside, I'd prefer to see them working out in the gym or doing manual work as it concentrates their minds and burns up any pent up frustrations. From a staff point of view that can only be a good thing but I do understand where you're coming from.

BTW, many people felt the same way when in cell televisions were introduced but they have been a major success as regards reducing the suicide rate and relieving boredom.

If only a gym was mandatory in Garda Stations.....

Ian Beale

Chief--- wrote: »

If only a gym was mandatory in Garda Stations.....

Sure aren't you always running and "lifting" criminals? Deadwood started it :pac:
Do they have an exercise yard for walking around? Surely that would be enough to keep them reasonably fit

sealgaire

I agree with this. What is the point of somebody getting locked up for assault, going in lifting weights for a year and coming out 5 times stronger and more able to assault people even more!?!?

Zambia

Maybe Macdonalds should take over all catering in prisons.

Two wheels story is backed up by a documentary on wormwood scrubs I saw whaich stated that the ratio of Prisoners to inmates roaming on the wing was 200 - 10. So keeping the prisoners entertained was paramount.

I also remember as an adage someone in the PSNI college in Garnerville stating that the rooms where students where smaller than the cells of most prisoners in Northern Ireland.

Odysseus

God we want to deny prisoners the right to a gym now. That’s akin to removing the offer of educational supports whilst you at it, you never know they might learn something that they can use in the process of another crime.

Irish prisons are in a terrible state, don't get me wrong I believe people should be punished for their criminal activity, and there are some people out there would will never be rehabilitated, and criminality is their life.

However, in order for a person to remove themselves from criminality; punishment in and of itself is lacking. 60% approx of all the people I have worked with over the years have spent 2+ visits to our prison system. As I noted above, without a strong motivation to stop breaking the laws of our society, punishment rarely does the job.

My work brings me into some of our prisons, don't believe what the papers tell about everything being like a hotel; they are far from it. They amount of unreported violent acts that occur in our prisons is shocking. I now have lad’s who are hitting 40, had varying amount of time spent in the system, they are often afraid to go back in because of the violence.

That's not a good point for us, apart from the fact that we don't view acts of aggression as a punishment, what does it say about our responsibility to protect them? At the end of the day if The State has decided to place someone in a place of detention, it has a responsibility to see that punishment is carried out, but in a safe manner.

I'm not talking about this as a question of morality, is it acceptable that the system cannot stop in criminal attacking another whilst in The State's custody? What it tells me is if we cannot prevent this from happening something is wrong with the system. There will always be cases of things like this happening, but it happens too often. If The State cannot prevent one of its prisoners from knifing another whilst in their care, how can it be excepted to alter their behaviour upon release?

cushtac

Odysseus wrote: »

My work brings me into some of our prisons, don't believe what the papers tell about everything being like a hotel; they are far from it. They amount of unreported violent acts that occur in our prisons is shocking. I now have lad’s who are hitting 40, had varying amount of time spent in the system, they are often afraid to go back in because of the violence.

Tell them to stop committing crimes then, most of the rest of the population manages it.

kensey

cushtac wrote: »

Tell them to stop committing crimes then, most of the rest of the population manages it.

+1

You don't want to go back inside?
Then play by the rules like everyone else

Odysseus

cushtac wrote: »

Tell them to stop committing crimes then, most of the rest of the population manages it.

I agree, as I said I have no problem with someone going away. It's the quality of the system once that happens, that I have issues with.

kensey

Odysseus wrote: »

I agree, as I said I have no problem with someone going away. It's the quality of the system once that happens, that I have issues with.

That's a valid point. However it is prison and not a hotel!

Odysseus

kensey wrote: »

That's a valid point. However it is prison and not a hotel!

None of the Irish facilities I have ever been in could be classed as as hotel. That's a media perception that they like to use to whip up hysteria. Have you experienced any Irish facility that you would class as a hotel? If so what was it like?

Don't get me wrong I believe in the concept of punishment, but not by itself. Some people will never change, but I don't think that is a reason to deny any fortm of help to everyone else. With any of the guys I have seen who have managed to turn their lives around, it was done with access to a lot of support services.

Zambia

Its not really that big an issue if gyms where removed, as so far the only feedback we have is that Crims do not really train in prison. Plus the members on this forum have not reported what I presumed was increased bulk in criminals on release due to time in prison using weights.

Odysseus

Zambia232 wrote: »

Its not really that big an issue if gyms where removed, as so far the only feedback we have is that Crims do not really train in prison. Plus the members on this forum have not reported what I presumed was increased bulk in criminals on release due to time in prison using weights.

Actually I think it is a big issue, it's buying into that mentality that life in the prison system is easy. Like it or not if we decide to take a person's liberty away from them as a punishment for a crime, we are responsible for their care whilst they are locked up.

It not as simple as saying well don't do the crime, and I strongly believe in people being punished for their crimes. However, as members of AGS would know when you see someone who has spent most of the adult life in and out of prison, you see their personal responsibility for their life. Yet, when you see case after case like this, it suggests something is not right with the system. You’re not going to stop certain people from a life of criminality; however, you can help some people, and this part is sadly lacking in our system.

Spend some time with a prisoner who was forced to go on protection for reason varying from another prisoner having issues with the, to going State's evidence. 23 hour lock, in a cell with up to 4-5 other prisoners, and even then safety is not guaranteed. A prisoner was killed whilst on protection in M/Joy a couple of years ago.

Access to some form of gym, can other is a positive thing. If the rehabilitation side of the justice system is about getting a subject to take responsibility for their life, this can often start with taking responsibility for ones body.

Shield

Ody: if you had all the money and authority needed, and with your vast experience doing the job that you do, can you let us all know what changes you would make? What would you implement? What would you remove? The way I see it, you're in one of the most unique positions because you see both sides whereas LEOs only ever get to see the person being turned over to the Prison Service and that's it.

Grateful as always for your thoughts.

bravestar

Zambia232 wrote: »

Its not really that big an issue if gyms where removed, as so far the only feedback we have is that Crims do not really train in prison. Plus the members on this forum have not reported what I presumed was increased bulk in criminals on release due to time in prison using weights.

I can tell you that plenty of them do train in prison. I know alot of lads who have come out alot bigger than they went in and only a few months ago was chatting with a lad who knew he was getting a stretch. He was looking forward to it saying he's gonna bulk up and come out an animal. By all reports he is achieving that goal. I'll see the results myself soon enough. Lucky me

Odysseus

psni wrote: »

Ody: if you had all the money and authority needed, and with your vast experience doing the job that you do, can you let us all know what changes you would make? What would you implement? What would you remove? The way I see it, you're in one of the most unique positions because you see both sides whereas LEOs only ever get to see the person being turned over to the Prison Service and that's it.

Grateful as always for your thoughts.

Big question, I'm not sure if I'm the best to answer it. I'm in work at the moment, I be home tomorrow night and will try then.

480905

The vast majority don't use the gym. They just wander around the yards CHOOSING to wile away their time. Services are available to those who CHOOSE to try and turn themselves around. The system letting them down after they get out isn't really fair . They go back to where they came from, all the old influences, people, habits and they fall back in to old ways again , because they CHOOSE to go back. We all have choices to make.

Corcioch

Have seen a few goujers go into Prison and come out several months later absolutely huge . . . . from lifting weights . . . . but its not just weights, the changes I have seen in some goujers must also be a result of taking HGH or Steroids.

They people I refer to ( dead now from "gangland violence" ) as it happens, put on several stone of muscle/ bulk in the space of a few months . . . that cannot be done without HGH/ Steroids. . . . .

Ya its a pain looking at some dangerous goujer going to jail and getting out several months later wayy bigger and somewhat stronger . . .cos the next time you end up face to face with him you may have to deal with this.

480905

As in normal society, prison life reflects reality. I'd be surprised if steroids weren't being used illicitly,as are most drugs of choice but all efforts are being made to stamp out the smuggling of drugs so hopefully those methods will prove positive.

Spartan09

there's a gym in the station Im in and its very very popular with the male members in particular and quite a lot would invest significant amounts of time using the free weights. I think thats down to the amount of sports teams that the members are playing with outside the job and not because the gougers are getting bigger, though it cant hurt. To be honest now that AGS has been reasonably equipped with self protection equipment, and in particular the incapicitant spray it evens the contest up even with muscle bound gougers. Ive seen huge lads hit the ground in seconds in response to incapicitant spray from a small in stature female Garda, but without it the Garda would have needed significant additional members to effect an arrest. A lot of my family are members of the prison service and they would say that there is only a small minority using the weights to bulk up as most are too ravaged by the effects of drugs to bulk up in any substantial way.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Corcioch wrote: »

They people I refer to ( dead now from "gangland violence" ) as it happens, put on several stone of muscle/ bulk in the space of a few months . . . that cannot be done without HGH/ Steroids. . . . .

Even using steroids, and HGH (you'll need to throw in some insulin R too) someone won't put on several stone of muscle in a few months, not a snowballs chance in hell.

And besides, I've never seen muscle make someone a better fighter. Don't sweat that kind of stuff.

Corcioch

Dorothy Pitiful Platypus wrote: »

Even using steroids, and HGH (you'll need to throw in some insulin R too) someone won't put on several stone of muscle in a few months, not a snowballs chance in hell.

And besides, I've never seen muscle make someone a better fighter. Don't sweat that kind of stuff.

Not in a few months but over a period of a prison sentence, yes . . . . I have seen it with my own 2 eyes . . . ( I myself put on 2 stone in 1 year lifting weights properly with no drugs . . . with no increase in waist size etc etc . . . ie; it was not fat. ) . . .so with drugs much more is certainly possible

No HGH grown muscle wont make anyone a "better fighter" . . . . . and they wont even be as strong as their size portrays. . . but these are dangerous violent criminals im referring to . . . these people had a few murders under their belts at the time . . . . they were violent people and a few extra stone muscle weight behind them did make them harder to deal with . . . . .it made them more intimidating to ordinary people and made them braver too. . . . . take one violent criminal, make him bigger and stronger well the result is obvious . . .he'll be more of a handful.

Look at it from the point of view a Judo player for example . . . .isn't it easier to grapple/ do randori against someone 12 instead of 16 stone?? . . . all other factors being equal. . . .


And this and my previous post were not in any way a slur on the way the Prison Service run their jails . . .and the numbers concerned are indeed low as another poster stated.

Spartan09

Corcioch wrote: »

Not in a few months but over a period of a prison sentence, yes . . . . I have seen it with my own 2 eyes . . . ( I myself put on 2 stone in 1 year lifting weights properly with no drugs . . . with no increase in waist size etc etc . . . ie; it was not fat. ) . . .so with drugs much more is certainly possible

No HGH grown muscle wont make anyone a "better fighter" . . . . . and they wont even be as strong as their size portrays. . . but these are dangerous violent criminals im referring to . . . these people had a few murders under their belts at the time . . . . they were violent people and a few extra stone muscle weight behind them did make them harder to deal with . . . . .it made them more intimidating to ordinary people and made them braver too. . . . . take one violent criminal, make him bigger and stronger well the result is obvious . . .he'll be more of a handful.

Look at it from the point of view a Judo player for example . . . .isn't it easier to grapple/ do randori against someone 12 instead of 16 stone?? . . . all other factors being equal. . . .


And this and my previous post were not in any way a slur on the way the Prison Service run their jails . . .and the numbers concerned are indeed low as another poster stated.

As I previously mentioned alot of my extended family are members of the prison service. What they have told me is from their experience, once a seasoned prisoner has been restrained, moved on by officers, the next time something kicks off they walk quietly as they know the odds are stacked against them and the control and restraint procedures are painful for a reason. This is irrespective of whether they have been pumping iron or not. In the same way I have seen AGS flood a serious assault / public order incident with up to 20-25 members so that the gougers, no matter how big think twice about exhibiting violence in the face of overwhelming odds. To two Gardai on beat patrol these lads would be difficult to arrest but not irsurmountable, when faced my multiple Gardai with restraint equipment their odds are significantly reduced....

Corcioch

Spartan09 wrote: »

As I previously mentioned alot of my extended family are members of the prison service. What they have told me is from their experience, once a seasoned prisoner has been restrained, moved on by officers, the next time something kicks off they walk quietly as they know the odds are stacked against them and the control and restraint procedures are painful for a reason. This is irrespective of whether they have been pumping iron or not. In the same way I have seen AGS flood a serious assault / public order incident with up to 20-25 members so that the gougers, no matter how big think twice about exhibiting violence in the face of overwhelming odds. To two Gardai on beat patrol these lads would be difficult to arrest but not irsurmountable, when faced my multiple Gardai with restraint equipment their odds are significantly reduced....

20 - 25 Gardai . . . .lmao

Where I work I patrol alone . . .and I can be 20 + mins from the nearest back up . . . . .

There wouldn't even be 20 members on duty in my entire district during a tour . . .

And even if you do work in a city with good resources . . . . .

When you have been face to face with some of these folks . . .you are ON YOUR OWN . .and one of them is waving a glass bottle in your face, in the small hours of the morning, on their estate . . . .then come back to me and tell me it makes no difference if this guy was a 12 stone junkie before he went to prison and is now 14 or 15 stone of muscle.

Locust

That pepper spray is worth its weight in gold for causing pain/getting control and turning big lads into big blubbering babies...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Not in a few months but over a period of a prison sentence, yes . . . . I have seen it with my own 2 eyes . . . ( I myself put on 2 stone in 1 year lifting weights properly with no drugs . . . with no increase in waist size etc etc . . . ie; it was not fat. ) . . .so with drugs much more is certainly possible[/QUOTE]

Then your genetically very, very gifted.. Exceptionally so in fact.

Corcioch wrote: »

No HGH grown muscle wont make anyone a "better fighter" . . . . . and they wont even be as strong as their size portrays. . .

I've never seen a big muscular guy who hadn't the strength to match.

Corcioch wrote: »

but these are dangerous violent criminals im referring to . . . these people had a few murders under their belts at the time . . . . they were violent people and a few extra stone muscle weight behind them did make them harder to deal with . . . . .it made them more intimidating to ordinary people and made them braver too. . . . . take one violent criminal, make him bigger and stronger well the result is obvious . . .he'll be more of a handful.

You said earlier these were 'gangland' figures - you don't need to be jacked to pay a junkie to shoot a rival in the head.

Corcioch wrote: »

Look at it from the point of view a Judo player for example . . . .isn't it easier to grapple/ do randori against someone 12 instead of 16 stone?? . . . all other factors being equal. . . .

All other factor's being equal, yes.

But your not comparing like with like.

I understand that a P.O. can't be seen to beat up a prisoner, and I've trained with lots of P.O.'s over the years, and honest their control & restraint training & techniques are rubbish for effectively controlling a prisoner.

Pity you can't use chokes, strangles and effective joint locks :pac:

But honestly, I wouldn't be intimidated by a prisoner/criminal who's doing a little weight training, or using steroids for a little extra mass.

cushtac

Dorothy Pitiful Platypus wrote: »

You said earlier these were 'gangland' figures - you don't need to be jacked to pay a junkie to shoot a rival in the head.

The violent acts of such criminals aren't confined to shooting rivals. They've all had years of violence behind them, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of the pile & in the position to order other people murdered.

I've yet to see any serious criminal who doesn't have a significant history of violence.

Dorothy Pitiful Platypus wrote: »

But honestly, I wouldn't be intimidated by a prisoner/criminal who's doing a little weight training, or using steroids for a little extra mass.

I'm not having a go at you, but how much experience do you have of dealing with violent criminals?

Corcioch

Dorothy Pitiful Platypus wrote: »

Then your genetically very, very gifted.. Exceptionally so in fact.



I've never seen a big muscular guy who hadn't the strength to match.




You said earlier these were 'gangland' figures - you don't need to be jacked to pay a junkie to shoot a rival in the head.



All other factor's being equal, yes.

But your not comparing like with like.

I understand that a P.O. can't be seen to beat up a prisoner, and I've trained with lots of P.O.'s over the years, and honest their control & restraint training & techniques are rubbish for effectively controlling a prisoner.

Pity you can't use chokes, strangles and effective joint locks :pac:

But honestly, I wouldn't be intimidated by a prisoner/criminal who's doing a little weight training, or using steroids for a little extra mass.

No offence mate but your knowledge of Weight Training seems to be, well . . . limited . . .

No one needs to be genetically gifted to put on two stone in one year . . . .what they need is to know what they are doing in the gym, and I mean actually know . . . not think they know . . .and the most important of all is diet . . .diet is 70% of the battle, easily . . . and its where most people fall down . . .rest then is hugely important as natural HGH levels are at their highest during sleep.

If you have never seen someone whos strength didn't match their size then again same point as above,

Go into a decent gym and find the huge guys who can lift only reasonable amount of weight . . .they are the guys sticking needles up their arses . . .and they are not as strong as their size suggests . . .

There are plenty of big musclar guys out there on gear who are not nearly as strong as they are big . . .

Then find the powerlifters . . . . . .these can be guys of 9 stone squatting 4 plates a side +

They are usually people whos size hides their actual massive strength.





The OP asked does it make a difference that some people are weight training while they are in Jail . . . .as someone with actual experience of such a situation, having dealt with such people after they were released I answered him . . . . .It does.

The dojo, and the mats are a completely different place to the estates and suburbs of some of our cities.

Corcioch

cushtac wrote: »

The violent acts of such criminals aren't confined to shooting rivals. They've all had years of violence behind them, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of the pile & in the position to order other people murdered.

I've yet to see any serious criminal who doesn't have a significant history of violence.



I'm not having a go at you, but how much experience do you have of dealing with violent criminals?

+ 1

480905

in relation to this comment by Makikomi

I understand that a P.O. can't be seen to beat up a prisoner, and I've trained with lots of P.O.'s over the years, and honest their control & restraint training & techniques are rubbish for effectively controlling a prisoner.

Prison Officers do not beat up prisoners. That comment is unfounded ,unwise , and very unappreciated.
If he/she knows of an incident where a prisoner has been assaulted he/she should report it to the relevant authorities.

What experience ,If any, does the poster have in "effectively controlling a prisoner" as so eloquently put ?

I've used those techniques during my service and they are completely effective when employed properly.

Spartan09

480905 wrote: »

in relation to this comment by Makikomi

I understand that a P.O. can't be seen to beat up a prisoner, and I've trained with lots of P.O.'s over the years, and honest their control & restraint training & techniques are rubbish for effectively controlling a prisoner.

Prison Officers do not beat up prisoners. That comment is unfounded ,unwise , and very unappreciated.
If he/she knows of an incident where a prisoner has been assaulted he/she should report it to the relevant authorities.

What experience ,If any, does the poster have in "effectively controlling a prisoner" as so eloquently put ?
I've used those techniques during my service and they are completely effective when employed properly.

As Ive mentioned before on here alot of my family are members of the prison service. What they have told me is that the C&R techniques used by the prison service are so effective that once they have been used on a prisoner that they are more likely to walk rather than be restrained if they are required to be moved from a situation. I've had my uncle perform what he calls the "Jesus" hold on me as a demonstation and I'd rather walk than have it done on me a second time! I should also add that my relations who are in the prison service are some of the most dedicated, honest and hardworking people I know and would never beat up or assault a prisoner in their care. That would make their job more difficult in the long term and put their livelihood at risk, something they would not be willing to do.

discus

Corcioch wrote: »

No offence mate but your knowledge of Weight Training seems to be, well . . . limited . . .

If you saw the pics of Makikomi that he's posted here, well... you wouldn't be saying that.

Corcioch

discus wrote: »

If you saw the pics of Makikomi that he's posted here, well... you wouldn't be saying that.

Based on all the points I made above . . . .I did.


And I am.


You could show me a pic of Jay Cuttler or Ronnie Coleman and I'd still make the same points as above based upon what has been typed in post #29