Kevin Myers writes anti-Metro column (x4) [SEE MOD WARNING POST #1]

LeinsterDub

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Are you asserting that every single person in the greater Dublin region ...and 2m would take you to Carlow Dundalk and Tullamore.....is going to get a smartcard each, not a chance.

Only 60,000 have a Luas smartcard and the Luas easily 'serves' 4 times that many people.

Focus on addressable markets not on pie in the sky numbers from outer leinster !!

I'm not suggesting that all 2 million would get a card but you said "potential regular customers" and it seems to me that number was plucked out of thin air unless you've read a report saying this is the "potential regular customers" . Plus in other cities non regular customs have these card. I know I rarely get the luas , more often get the bus but if we had a ITS I'd have one for handiness sake.

liammur

runway16 wrote: »

Typical cart before horse response. Maybe by putting in some decent bloody transport, you stimulate investment which creates jobs, increases the tax take and gives you more money to sort of the schools and hospitals. By the way, im not aware off too many of either that are falling down. The health service gets plenty of bloody money - but if you try to drive reform, you get stonewalled, so it ends up festoring at the middle management level.

Of course, you also dont seem to be aware that this is a PPP contract, so the government wont actually be spending that much on it for a few years anyway.

And as for Sponge Bobs assertion about the "dubs", it was a national government, made up of people from all across Ireland, who set up this "quangoid thingy", and is probably staffed by people from across Ireland too. But dont let the chips on your left and right shoulder blind you to the facts, now will you? Perhaps the boggers who end up deciding these things might do a better job of it next time, rather than setting up another "quango"???

It's madness, plain and simple. Appeal to the masses, and the worst government in out history will have some toy, if not the bertie bowl, then this.

dubhthach

liammur wrote: »

It's madness, plain and simple. Appeal to the masses, and the worst government in out history will have some toy, if not the bertie bowl, then this.

How is it a toy? It will provide mass transit every 3 minutes through a heavy populated area as well as connecting the Airport to city centre in less then 20 minutes. It will also be in use for at least 100years. No doubt if we stuck you in a time machine to the early 80's you would tell us that the Dart would turn out as nothing more then a toy :rolleyes:

liammur

Only in ireland would we be considering this when we are bankrupt.

LeinsterDub

liammur wrote: »

Only in ireland would we be considering this when we are bankrupt.

Considering the EU gave us 500 million for this and we won't be paying for it in a lump sum I think it's affordable and will generate much needed jobs

liammur

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Considering the EU gave us 500 million for this we won't be paying for it in a lump sum I think it's affordable and will generate much needed jobs

Well 1 thing is for sure, we would be in a bad bad way but for the EU

KevR

runway16 wrote: »

And as for Sponge Bobs assertion about the "dubs", it was a national government, made up of people from all across Ireland, who set up this "quangoid thingy", and is probably staffed by people from across Ireland too. But dont let the chips on your left and right shoulder blind you to the facts, now will you? Perhaps the boggers who end up deciding these things might do a better job of it next time, rather than setting up another "quango"???

I don't think it is anti-Dub to point out that certain big infrastructure projects in Dublin in the past have not been value for money. As nationally important as the M50 is, do you think it was value for money? Didn't the Luas exceed it's budget by a sizeable amount? Is that ok because the Luas is in Dublin? Would that be ok if it happened elsewhere in the country?

Dublin badly needs DART Underground and Metro North but it simply can't be 'at any cost'. It has to be at a reasonable cost. Times have changed and you can't justify reckless money and project management on infrastructure projects anywhere in the country (including Dublin).

liammur

KevR wrote: »

I don't think it is anti-Dub to point out that certain big infrastructure projects in Dublin in the past have not been value for money. As nationally important as the M50 is, do you think it was value for money? Didn't the Luas exceed it's budget by a sizeable amount? Is that ok because the Luas is in Dublin? Would that be ok if it happened elsewhere in the country?

Dublin badly needs DART Underground and Metro North but it simply can't be 'at any cost'. It has to be at a reasonable cost. Times have changed and you can't justify reckless money and project management on infrastructure projects anywhere in the country (including Dublin).

At last i've seen an intelligent post.

Well done.

KevR

liammur wrote: »

At last i've seen an intelligent post.

Well done.

Bear in mind that I do think MN will come in at a reasonable cost and I do want the project to go ahead.

The €5 Billion is a figure used by people who are against MN. I don't think it will cost that much.

When Sponge Bob said this....

Sponge Bob wrote:

I just cannot POSSIBLY see how EVEN the Dubs could blow €5bn on MN and would tend err towards €2bn.

....I'm pretty sure he was referring to certain projects in the past which have been terrible value for money. It was a dig at Dublin-based infrastructure projects, not a dig at Dublin people. Although some people did take it the wrong way.

liammur

Yes, i'm surprised at how defensive many dublin people are. Too much waving of the blue scarves and hats.

Value for money & prioritising of projects has to be off the essence now more than ever.

Hence, I would like to see hospitals and schools upgraded first.

Sponge Bob

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Considering the EU gave us 500 million for this and we won't be paying for it in a lump sum I think it's affordable and will generate much needed jobs

We are able to BORROW UP TO €500m for this and NOT from the EU. Nobody gave us anything save for a Credit Line!!!

As for the troll and his hospitals, lots of 'upgraded' hospital wards are shut nowadays. No staff. Stop coming up with 'ideas' for wasting money willya!

LeinsterDub

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We are able to BORROW UP TO €500m for this and NOT from the EU. Nobody gave us anything save for a Credit Line!!!

As for the troll and his hospitals, lots of 'upgraded' hospital wards are shut nowadays. No staff. Stop coming up with 'ideas' for wasting money willya!

I stand corrected .

Sponge Bob

On the roads side we have approval for up to €75m towards Newlands Cross and Arklow together. Also up to €170m for Gort - Tuam.

We have not applied EIB funding for any other road or public transport project not that there are any approval delays once one does. It only takes 2 months or so.

liammur

Sponge Bob wrote: »

lots of 'upgraded' hospital wards are shut nowadays. No staff.

Applying your reasoning we will have no train drivers.

Cringe

L1011

liammur wrote: »

Sponge Bob wrote: »

lots of 'upgraded' hospital wards are shut nowadays. No staff.

Applying your reasoning we will have no train drivers.

Cringe

I'm not seeing the connection here.

There are hundreds if not thousands of hospital beds closed in Ireland. There is a massive wing of Mullingar General which was never properly *opened* and is less than two decades old. Proper utilisation of wards, diagnostic units and their like which are already built is far, far more effective than any further construction.

However, it is an impossibility for staff costs in hospitals (which are in some cases not even actually operated by the state) to be paid for from capital expenditure.

Godge

KevR wrote: »

I don't think it is anti-Dub to point out that certain big infrastructure projects in Dublin in the past have not been value for money. As nationally important as the M50 is, do you think it was value for money? Didn't the Luas exceed it's budget by a sizeable amount? Is that ok because the Luas is in Dublin? Would that be ok if it happened elsewhere in the country?

Dublin badly needs DART Underground and Metro North but it simply can't be 'at any cost'. It has to be at a reasonable cost. Times have changed and you can't justify reckless money and project management on infrastructure projects anywhere in the country (including Dublin).

True, we haven't got value for money from infrastructure projects in the past, whether in Dublin or on the Atlantic Corridor.

However, if this country is to recover, we can't afford to subsidise one-off rural housing and remote villages. Investment will need to be concentrated in the cities, Dublin in particular.

That being said, of course we must demand value for money. But we won't get value for money building west-on-track or roads to nowhere.

runway16

KevR wrote: »

I don't think it is anti-Dub to point out that certain big infrastructure projects in Dublin in the past have not been value for money. As nationally important as the M50 is, do you think it was value for money? Didn't the Luas exceed it's budget by a sizeable amount? Is that ok because the Luas is in Dublin? Would that be ok if it happened elsewhere in the country?

Dublin badly needs DART Underground and Metro North but it simply can't be 'at any cost'. It has to be at a reasonable cost. Times have changed and you can't justify reckless money and project management on infrastructure projects anywhere in the country (including Dublin).

Please tell me where exactly I mentioned cost over runs or anything of that nature. No where. I am all for value for money, but Sponge Bob kept referring to "even the dubs" couldnt mess this up, its a "Dub" quango etc.

Dont extrapolate meanings from my posts that are not even there.

I challenged this usual "bloody dubs" nonsense you seem to see from most non Dublin posters.

Why dont people just admit they are bloody prejudiced to everything that happens in this city and be done with it? By the way, I'd just like to point out, Im from the Wesht myself and it embarrasses me how people there go on. I cant help but feel sorry in a way, because it must be awful to live your life with such bitterness!

Finally, something meaningful can be done to release the economic engine of this country from its crippling traffic congestion. Something everyone cried out for for years during the celtic tiger. Now, of course, a "recession chique" has set in, where is it is fashionable to knock everything that might actually spur this country on, simply because FF came up with the idea.

What did the US do to get itself out of recesssion? What does any country do? THEY BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE. its called stimulus, and we simply have not had enough of it.

But because its not in Mayo, or Longford, or Kerry, it shouldnt happen eh?

People knocking Dublin infrastrcture need to look a bit closer to home. I'd bet most of the people designing the under spec roads we have been plagued with arent even from Dublin. The government and civil service are made up of people from all over this country. This arguement of the "dubs" being responsible is the most infatile and pathetic arguement I have ever seen on this board.

Was pouring money into SNN airport good value when its traffic has been overall stagnant for about 20 years?


Is building one off houses randomly interspersed throughout the Irish landscape, which government has to provide electricity and roads and schools and everything for a good use of money?

KevR

runway16 wrote: »

Please tell me where exactly I mentioned cost over runs or anything of that nature. No where. I am all for value for money, but Sponge Bob kept referring to "even the dubs" couldnt mess this up, its a "Dub" quango etc.

I think it was more like "even the Dubs couldn't blow €5 Billion on this project". Maybe he could have phrased it better but to me it translates as a dig at Dublin-based infrastructure projects which cost a lot more than they should have, I don't think it was primarily a dig a Dublin people. I still think you are taking what he said the wrong way.

runway16 wrote: »

I challenged this usual "bloody dubs" nonsense you seem to see from most non Dublin posters.

Why dont people just admit they are bloody prejudiced to everything that happens in this city and be done with it? By the way, I'd just like to point out, Im from the Wesht myself and it embarrasses me how people there go on. I cant help but feel sorry in a way, because it must be awful to live your life with such bitterness!

I think this is a little over the top.

A few people coming on boards and saying "it's not fair that Dublin is getting X when we need Y down here" does not mean that everyone in the West is living a bitter life. It just means they are looking out for their own interests (even though they might not be thinking of the bigger picture nationally).

It's funny the way people from outside Dublin are expected to be happy about money being spent in Dublin when at the same time people in Dublin are calling everyone else boggers/culchies and laughing at how backward and shite the rest of the country is. [Not aimed at you personally runway16]

I don't think runway16 said it but....this whole business of "Dublin paying for everywhere else" seems to get thrown around on here an aweful lot lately. I would really love to see this properly backed up. I would be really shocked if Dublin was paying for the likes of Cork, Galway and Limerick cities - I would be inclined to think that these areas at least pay their own way; but they are more than likely throwing more into that pot than they are getting back (just like Dublin but to a lesser extent). Dublin paying for rural areas and small villages - yes. Dublin paying for other cities and large towns - highly doubtful.

I'm not anti-Dublin but I can definitely see why others would be.

runway16 wrote: »

But because its not in Mayo, or Longford, or Kerry, it shouldnt happen eh?

I think only one person in this thread said MN shouldn't happen and that money should be spent on schools and hospitals instead.

Everyone else supports MN going ahead. The €5 Billion figure is used by people who are against MN (e.g. - Kevin Myres); it won't cost that much and Sponge Bob basically said that it's not going to cost €5B even with a history of infrastructure projects going way over-budget in Dublin. He was actually defending MN, was taken up wrongly, the quango thing came up and then the Dublin-vs-the rest of the counrty debate kicked-off.

runway16 wrote: »

People knocking Dublin infrastrcture need to look a bit closer to home. I'd bet most of the people designing the under spec roads we have been plagued with arent even from Dublin. The government and civil service are made up of people from all over this country. This arguement of the "dubs" being responsible is the most infatile and pathetic arguement I have ever seen on this board.

I realise that people from all over the country (and even beyond Ireland) might have been involved. It is wrong to say that Dublin people are entirely to blame for botched infrastructure projects in Dublin. But Dublin people do have to take some of the blame as they were involved also and it is their city afterall.

From my point of view, I would blame Galway City Council/local politicians for botched infrastructure in Galway. Even if some of the people involved aren't originally from Galway, they are based here so.....

runway16 wrote: »

Was pouring money into SNN airport good value when its traffic has been overall stagnant for about 20 years?

Nope! I have made several posts on boards in the past in which I basically said that I think Shannon, Galway, Knock and Sligo should never have been built. One medium sized airport in the West with good road links would be infinitely better than the current airport situation.

runway16 wrote: »

Is building one off houses randomly interspersed throughout the Irish landscape, which government has to provide electricity and roads and schools and everything for a good use of money?

I fully agree. I think there are way too many one off houses already and I hope no more get built. Luckily for me I live in an inner suburb of Galway City and have everything I could possibly need on a daily basis within walking distance.

Sponge Bob

It was dig at how every big project in Dublin in the past 15 years has inevitably gone way over budget.

1. No sooner was the M50 finished in 2005 than it was widened, cost of that €1bn. The last section of the M50 (from Sandyford to Cherrywood) cost over €50m a km when built in 2005 and that sectionhas not been widened...yet. It has blipped on the widening radar.
2. Luas was around double original budget for red and green lines. They came in at €700m or €800m in the end.
3. Luas extension to Point Depot cost €100m a MILE, Luas Cherrywood around €40m a km and the Athenry Ennis WRC section cost around €110m THE LOT.
4. The Port tunnel, €800m I suspect.
5. The new criminal court building near Heuston will cost us over €15m a year, EVERY SINGLE YEAR between now and around 2035. It cost €120m to build but it looks rather nice

I won't mention Terminal 2 seeing as that was not strictly 'public' expenditure.

Dublin has a lot of previous when it comes to ludicrous expenditures, no cost control and disgraceful outcomes for the taxpayer.

dynamick

Myers wrote:

The juncture of the Port Tunnel and the Dart line beside Harry Crosbie's Spencer Dock Development is the most obvious place to locate an airport bus station.

mmm, the junction of the port tunnel and the DART is in Fairview Park.

DWCommuter

Kevin Myers can be incisive and enjoyable, but when it comes to transport topics he tends to take the populist and misinformed view for the sake of column inches. However....

Not everyone who isn't particularly enamoured by Metro North is an anti public transport/Dublin tyrant. What I despise about rail based infrastructural projects is the historical paddywhackery approach that is dictated by political interference and more recently consumed by a Government deathwish to pander to property developers in an attempt to make it look like sensible and sustainable planning. (Which every informed observer should realise is just a ruse.) The latter is why the latest luas extensions will run through fields for many years to come, while the former is why the section of WRC was built.

Ireland seems trapped in a repetitive cycle of building "bits" of great ideas via much procrastination. Its interesting to note that areas of Dublin where the luas would deliver massive benefits to easing road congestion have been sidelined. Its laughable that the DART was extended to Greystones, when Maynooth would have been the better option. Its scary to think that we may actually build Metro North and then never extend the concept, but instead reinvent the wheel at some future date and procrastinate about it as well. As a nation we devise great ideas and then pick them apart until we are left with a disjointed mess.

Metro North in itself is not a panacea for solving traffic congestion. It is merely the first step of a metro that should actually be extended. But if one looks at the T21 map, it is easy to see that its not planned to go anywhere else and if we take Metro West out of the equation (which wasn't difficult after the property crash) Metro North is it and thats that. So I can see why it looks like a vanity project.

This is why I support a complete post celtic tiger/property boom re-evaluation of public transport infrastructure projects. Not because Metro North is bad, but because I fear it will be just another stand alone facility in the aforementioned disjointed mess that we have come to hate. Personally I think the first starting point years ago should have been dealing with the CIE group at Government level, because the creation of the RPA was a state vote of no confidence in CIE and I think the more "quangos" you create then the bigger the problems you have. CIE and the RPA do not work in harmony because the latter was created out of the disgruntled former. Add to this the DTA which is now the NTA and if you are paying attention then the picture should emerge. Its not a pretty one and thats very unfortunate.

For the record folks, internet forums can be difficult places to articulate opinions like this because we just don't know who we are talking to. The history of transport planning in Dublin is worth immersing oneself in as it tells many tales that we can learn from. So thats my recommendation to younger people here or those who havent exposed themselves to the histrionics of it all and hopefully it helps you understand where the more hardened and opinionated people like myself come from. Because believe it or not, nothing has changed.

Sponge Bob

Forgot to mention The "Kildare Route Project" ...which is nearly all inside Dublin

6. KRP by CIE , €350m-€400m spent ( they won't say) and for that we got 4 new stations ( 2 of which existed nearby already ) and a bit of track they don't use and a station they won't open.

D.L.R.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Kevin Myers can be incisive and enjoyable, but when it comes to transport topics he tends to take the populist and misinformed view for the sake of column inches. However....

Not everyone who isn't particularly enamoured by Metro North is an anti public transport/Dublin tyrant. What I despise about rail based infrastructural projects is the historical paddywhackery approach that is dictated by political interference and more recently consumed by a Government deathwish to pander to property developers in an attempt to make it look like sensible and sustainable planning. (Which every informed observer should realise is just a ruse.) The latter is why the latest luas extensions will run through fields for many years to come, while the former is why the section of WRC was built.

Ireland seems trapped in a repetitive cycle of building "bits" of great ideas via much procrastination. Its interesting to note that areas of Dublin where the luas would deliver massive benefits to easing road congestion have been sidelined. Its laughable that the DART was extended to Greystones, when Maynooth would have been the better option. Its scary to think that we may actually build Metro North and then never extend the concept, but instead reinvent the wheel at some future date and procrastinate about it as well. As a nation we devise great ideas and then pick them apart until we are left with a disjointed mess.

Metro North in itself is not a panacea for solving traffic congestion. It is merely the first step of a metro that should actually be extended. But if one looks at the T21 map, it is easy to see that its not planned to go anywhere else and if we take Metro West out of the equation (which wasn't difficult after the property crash) Metro North is it and thats that. So I can see why it looks like a vanity project.

This is why I support a complete post celtic tiger/property boom re-evaluation of public transport infrastructure projects. Not because Metro North is bad, but because I fear it will be just another stand alone facility in the aforementioned disjointed mess that we have come to hate. Personally I think the first starting point years ago should have been dealing with the CIE group at Government level, because the creation of the RPA was a state vote of no confidence in CIE and I think the more "quangos" you create then the bigger the problems you have. CIE and the RPA do not work in harmony because the latter was created out of the disgruntled former. Add to this the DTA which is now the NTA and if you are paying attention then the picture should emerge. Its not a pretty one and thats very unfortunate.

For the record folks, internet forums can be difficult places to articulate opinions like this because we just don't know who we are talking to. The history of transport planning in Dublin is worth immersing oneself in as it tells many tales that we can learn from. So thats my recommendation to younger people here or those who havent exposed themselves to the histrionics of it all and hopefully it helps you understand where the more hardened and opinionated people like myself come from. Because believe it or not, nothing has changed.

And its because of that endless planning process that I'd like to see Metro North just proceed, imperfect as it may be. The thought of yet more consultation is stomach-churning. We need delivery.

If 5 or 10 years of waffling about it is not enough to satisfy everyone, then what is? At the end of the day, some people are just idiots who's opinions should be politely ignored. As you say, we could procrastinate about it for another decade, but there has to come a time when you need to break ground. We can't dance around this for another decade before starting. I say what we have on paper is pretty damn good, lets be forthright and build the damn thing.

If the slower luas turns profit, Metro North/Dart Underground cannot fail to succeed. Not building it would be economic suicide!

However, we need a new govt first because the current shower have lost the people. With a fresh slate and new govt, I have high hopes these twin projects will break ground in the next few years.

dubhthach

D.L.R. wrote: »

If the slower luas turns profit, Metro North/Dart Underground cannot fail to succeed. Not building it would be economic suicide!

Important reason Luas turns a profit if you ask me is because CIÉ didn't get their paws on it. The same will probably be true of Metro North.

D.L.R.

dubhthach wrote: »

Important reason Luas turns a profit if you ask me is because CIÉ didn't get their paws on it. The same will probably be true of Metro North.

I dunno about the whole RPA vs CIE thing, turf wars aren't what Dublin wants. The average punter doesn't give a toss about CIE RPA Dublin Bus or whoever... A bunch of competing systems is actually a pain in the hole from a user perspective. The core goal should be about facilitating the user. Otherwise it is just a string of vanity projects.

Lest we forget, the RPA are also responsible for the dogs dinners Luas BX and Metro West. You can almost laugh those projects off the page they're so bad in concept and design. Metro North is decent though, credit where its due. But seriously, realising Dublin needs an underground system.. and pointing it at the airport - its hardly rocket science now is it?

As I see it, Dublin is one city, a standard medium sized european city, it should have one simple system run by one authority. Its not as if it ain't been done elsewhere.

BluntGuy

D.L.R. wrote: »

However, we need a new govt first because the current shower have lost the people. With a fresh slate and new govt, I have high hopes these twin projects will break ground in the next few years.

Well you'd better hope it doesn't involve FG because I recall Enda saying MN would be for the snipping whilst endorsing WRC.

As far as I know Labour and SF support the project.

LeinsterDub

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It was dig at how every big project in Dublin in the past 15 years has inevitably gone way over budget.

1. No sooner was the M50 finished in 2005 than it was widened, cost of that €1bn. The last section of the M50 (from Sandyford to Cherrywood) cost over €50m a km when built in 2005 and that sectionhas not been widened...yet. It has blipped on the widening radar.
2. Luas was around double original budget for red and green lines. They came in at €700m or €800m in the end.
3. Luas extension to Point Depot cost €100m a MILE, Luas Cherrywood around €40m a km and the Athenry Ennis WRC section cost around €110m THE LOT.
4. The Port tunnel, €800m I suspect.
5. The new criminal court building near Heuston will cost us over €15m a year, EVERY SINGLE YEAR between now and around 2035. It cost €120m to build but it looks rather nice

I won't mention Terminal 2 seeing as that was not strictly 'public' expenditure.

Dublin has a lot of previous when it comes to ludicrous expenditures, no cost control and disgraceful outcomes for the taxpayer.

Believe it or not it costs more to build in a city than in the middle of a field. Also is your point they are too expensive or always go over budget because you've mixed projects which where over budget and one that where not?

Sponge Bob

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Also is your point they are too expensive or always go over budget because you've mixed projects which where over budget and one that where not?

Too expensive and over budget, I stand corrected where they were not over budget...but I feel the budgets are somehow more mutable in Dublin than elsewhere.

D.L.R.

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well you'd better hope it doesn't involve FG because I recall Enda saying MN would be for the snipping whilst endorsing WRC.

As far as I know Labour and SF support the project.

Yeah but don't FG always do this - they say what they would do if they formed a majority govt, which they won't.

I reckon a FG/Lab govt would have to support MN, especially if the Lab element is as strong as polling suggests.

spacetweek

dubhthach wrote: »

How is it a toy? It will provide mass transit every 3 minutes through a heavy populated area as well as connecting the Airport to city centre in less then 20 minutes. It will also be in use for at least 100years. No doubt if we stuck you in a time machine to the early 80's you would tell us that the Dart would turn out as nothing more then a toy :rolleyes:

Best post of the thread.


I don't wish to comment myself, so I'll just echo Furet: The fact that we're still trying to figure out whether we need a metro or not is a national embarrassment. We needed a metro along that alignment in 1990, not 2016.