Kevin Myers writes anti-Metro column (x4) [SEE MOD WARNING POST #1]

dowlingm

Kevin Myers is not a journalist. He is an opinion writer. A journalist (few enough in Ireland these days) goes out and researches a story for days or weeks. Myers writes about the Seanad one day, Metro North the next, travellers the next and gay rights the next. His production rate is admirable, his use of language to provoke emotional responses capable, his analysis dreadful.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It was dig at how every big project in Dublin in the past 15 years has inevitably gone way over budget.
3. Luas extension to Point Depot cost €100m a MILE, Luas Cherrywood around €40m a km and the Athenry Ennis WRC section cost around €110m THE LOT.

Sorry SB but if you don't realise the difference between a coat of paint on a railway line with 5mph speed limits and a few LC automations, and the construction of a new electrified track under which lie huge amounts of electrical, telecom, gas, water and sewer infrastructure, much of which was undoubtedly either missing from or lying away from the available street plan, you are not to be reasoned with.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I won't mention Terminal 2 seeing as that was not strictly 'public' expenditure.

Last I heard Dublin Airport's corporate ownership was still as much a semi State as RPA or CIE.

Amtmann

From today's Indo:

A LOT of people expressed surprise at last week's column about the Metro, which is understandable. We've been bombarded with cataclysmic figures for the past two years, all of which related to financial obligations caused by our past blunders. Many of you were clearly unaware that the Metro represents an entirely voluntary leap into a fresh and cataclysmic debt that could bring disaster to Dublin.

Now, no one would back a plan to build a huge coal-fired power station that had been conceived before global warming. So why is this technically bankrupt State hoping to build an underground rail link from St Stephen's Green to Dublin Airport which was conceived before the financial meltdown?

We are borrowing €20bn a year merely to run the State and to pay civil servants' salaries and pensions. And yet we still propose to build the Metro?

This is not rational behaviour, but akin to the conduct of an alcoholic who has foresworn alcohol totally -- apart, that is, from the open-ended credit-card account with Tesco wines, beers and spirits.

Tens of thousands of people are repaying mortgages that are vastly greater than their homes are worth. Unemployment is rocketing, as entire swathes of the secondary economy -- restaurants, shops, taxi companies, solicitors -- are collapsing.

Yet the Government, nonetheless, determinedly proceeds with the most expensive infrastructural project in the history of the capital.

Official estimates for the Metro declare that it will cost €5bn. Is this figure as much value as government estimates for earlier projects?

The Dublin Port Tunnel went from an estimated cost of €220m in 2000 to €580m in 2002, then to a final cost of €789m -- some 350pc of the original estimate. The M50 widening increased from €190m to €560m: 300 pc of the estimate. The Luas went up from €290m to €750m.

So all government predictions are in the realm of how long is a piece of string?

Therefore, allowing (modestly) that the Metro will probably cost 300pc of the original estimate, the final bill will be about €15bn. But this is not even like squandering money on a greenfield site in north county Dublin. No, the project requires a series of major assaults on the streetscape of Dublin and on the already-bleeding commercial centre around Grafton Street.

Sit down, while you read what is being proposed: a vast underground station beneath St Stephen's Green. This will require the destruction of the Green, the felling of its trees and its probable closure for two years. During this time, the removal of waste from beneath the Green will require 400 lorry movements a day through the city-centre's narrow streets to some dump in the greater Dublin area. And which lucky rural community will be the beneficiary of these thousands of lorries a week, unloading millions of tons of spoil a year?

This would have been barking at the height of the boom: but now we are borrowing nearly €60m a day to keep the State going, it is the kind of insane and Gothic fantasy that Hitler might have entertained as the Soviet tanks were rolling towards the fuehrer-bunker.

For at no point does the Stephen's Green scheme touch reality in terms of the commercial needs of an already crippled city centre, the actual transport requirements of airline passengers or what is financially possible for the Irish State.

NOW, I don't think that the civil-service mandarins who are backing the Metro scheme (along with the Greens, who are, of course, actually clinically mad) are doing so because they are consciously thinking of their own personal needs. But it's hard not to conclude that a huge collective unconscious is driving this desire to locate the transport hub at the very heart of the civil service. For nobody lives in St Stephen's Green (apart from guests in the Shelbourne Hotel, to which we can probably wave a fond farewell). Otherwise, there's no reason to make it THE underground hub for the Dart and Luas lines.

A rival hub -- where Dart and Luas and buses and mainline rail all converge -- already exists, although it is where almost no senior civil servant could find it, even on the map -- for it's north of the Liffey, at the Store Street-Amiens Street junction.

Further official figures will presumably be trotted out to justify the Metro, but most of these are soviet in their meaninglessness.

For example, the National Roads Authority -- those fine fellows who have just built a thousand miles of motorway without a single petrol pump -- routinely finish their projects ahead of their own schedules. Well, if you asked the NRA planners what time a rugby match will end, they'll invariably say: "Oh, about four hours after kick-off" and then be acclaiming themselves at the "early" whistle. So despite recent and very selective NRA claims, virtually all traffic flow is falling dramatically across the State.

The statistical projections which made the Metro notionally viable (and only then in the hallucinogenic fantasies of officialdom) are now as meaningful as Chad's military designs on Nebraska.

"Metro", means "mother" and "-polis" means city: "metropolis" therefore means "mother of the city". But if this insane scheme goes ahead, this underground line will probably be called "Necro".

kmyers@independent.ie

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-the-metro-is-an-insane-idea-and-a-disaster-for-dublin-2310177.html

Sponge Bob

He shows remarkably little faith in the ability of de Dubs to deliver anything at less than 300% of budget. The 'great hole' of stephens green will only cover 1/4 to 1/3 of the Green...not all of it Kevin and most of the 'trucking' will be underground to the north side

noelfirl

I see he's still going out about Waterloo & City Stephens & Airport.

I see he's still going on about costs, without considering the recessionary impact on construction prices, or the prospect of employment for a whole lot of people for a good few years.

I see he's still waffling about south-side political crap.

All in all the only thing new is the 'tearing up Stephen's Green' line, which is pretty overblown all round, least not thanks to Frank McD and his selective imagery.

Well he's convinced me :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

Does Store Street-Amiens Street have a massive undeveloped area in which to build under that I don't know of ? Also what a lovely shopping and cultural hub it is.

spank_inferno

Was he correct regarding St Stephens Green?

Will it be destroyed?
& If so how much will be?

Will the arch on the Grafton Street side survive this?

thanks

dowlingm

I suspect the size of the resulting mailbag from the last one had his editor at the Duckworth School of Journalism crying "More! As much as you can give me!"

Brian CivilEng

Did his invoking of Godwins law mean that the argument is over and he has lost? Seriously, opinions like this are downright dangerous. Does anybody care about their city and country, and want it not only to climb out of the recession but thrive during the next economic cycle? That the Metro and DART Underground should have been built years ago was the mantra during the boom, now they shouldn't be built for years is the opinion he is trying to spread. Especially with fear-mongering about the price.

It is thanks to articles like this that people really believe that most infrastructure projects have come in over budget, no mention of the changes in specifications from what was first mooted to what was actually built, which of course leads to higher prices. No mention either of the time difference between the first estimates and the final price estimate. Dublin Port tunnel came in on budget. The Luas came in on budget. Saying they didn't is like saying that in 1990 you were considering buying a bicycle for £50, you finally got a car in 2010 that cost €10000, wow that was hugely over budget. The NRA did not over estimate the proposed length of construction, look at the time it took to construct similar schemes 10 years ago then look at the time it takes to construct them now. There is a thing called practise, we got better at building roads,we have a huge amount of road building skill in this country and we are throwing it away because of the recession.

The Celtic tiger left a great legacy, we have a national motorway system that we can be proud of and will serve us for many years to come, we have a new airport which can cater for huge increases in passengers which will come, and we wont be struggling through crowded terminals. Dublin has two world class stadia, whatever your opinions on the size of Lansdowne Road it is still infinitely better than what was there before. If we had tried to build the current M50 in 1990 we would have been laughed out of it, like there will ever be a need for more than 50,000 vehicles a day using it. Can people not see that recessions end, economies improve and believe it or not there will be more booms! The Metro will not cost €5bn unless something totally unexpected happens during construction (like finding Noah's arc buried under the green). The Metro will be paid for over 30 years, and I would predict at least two more recessions and two more booms in that time. The Metro will be there in 2110 and our grandchildren will thank us for the legacy of infrastructure.

LeinsterDub

spank_inferno wrote: »

Was he correct regarding St Stephens Green?

Will it be destroyed?
& If so how much will be?

Will the arch on the Grafton Street side survive this?

thanks

No
None of the park will be destroyed. A about a third will be inaccessible during the work. However it will returned to the state it was before the work with the exception of a few pieces of infrastructure required by the
metro. But these will hidden or blended in.
Yes it will be removed during the works but will be returned

D.L.R.

"Dublin doesn't need a Metro because I have a Jaguar."

Amtmann

spank_inferno wrote: »

Was he correct regarding St Stephens Green?

Will it be destroyed?
& If so how much will be?

Will the arch on the Grafton Street side survive this?

thanks

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No
None of the park will be destroyed. A about a third will be inaccessible during the work. However it will returned to the state it was before the work with the exception of a few pieces of infrastructure required by the
metro. But these will hidden or blended in.
Yes it will be removed during the works but will be returned

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The 'great hole' of stephens green will only cover 1/4 to 1/3 of the Green...not all of it Kevin and most of the 'trucking' will be underground to the north side

This topic totally deserves its own thread. See here.

Empire o de Sun

Nothing lasts forever, one day the sun will become a supernova and destroy the green forever. But maybe an Bord Pleanála will request some additional information first from the Sun :rolleyes:

dubhthach

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Nothing lasts forever, one day the sun will become a supernova and destroy the green forever. But maybe an Bord Pleanála will request some additional information first from the Sun :rolleyes:

Our sun is too small* to become a SuperNova so I'm sure the folks in ABP will not need to waste two years deciding if it should.

*A star needs to have at least 9-10 times the mass of our Sun to be a candidate for a supernova

Our Sun is tiny compared to some of starts out there:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Star-sizes.jpg

LeinsterDub

dubhthach wrote: »

Our sun is too small* to become a SuperNova so I'm sure the folks in ABP will not need to waste two years deciding if it should.

*A star needs to have at least 9-10 times the mass of our Sun to be a candidate for a supernova

Our Sun is tiny compared to some of starts out there:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Star-sizes.jpg

I think Empire o de Sun meant Red Giant and was aiming humour

Brian CivilEng

Bloody hell, only in Ireland would we have a sun that is too small for a supernova. This country

Empire o de Sun

Supernova, Red Giant, :rolleyes:

as long as it's the right shade of red.

The Green will recover over time. They have digitally or are digitally mapping every rock and stone there.

Anyway we'll be all in retirement homes, still waiting for an Bord Pleanála to approve. In major infrastructure projects, there should be a better a quicker mechanism put in place for approvals. An B P takes too long. It (the time it takes) is costing taxpayers money.

latenia

Whatever your opinion of Myers, he's correct on this one. Connolly should be designated as 'Central Station' with all national and international passenger links- rail, bus, air, and sea, terminating there.

LeinsterDub

latenia wrote: »

Whatever your opinion of Myers, he's correct on this one. Connolly should be designated as 'Central Station' with all national and international passenger links- rail, bus, air, and sea, terminating there.

He doesn't mention Connolly at all !

dowlingm

latenia wrote: »

Whatever your opinion of Myers, he's correct on this one. Connolly should be designated as 'Central Station' with all national and international passenger links- rail, bus, air, and sea, terminating there.

Why not call it "Single Point Of Failure" instead?

When a crazy dude rocked up to Toronto Union Station with a gun, it shut down commuter rail, intercity rail, one subway line and one streetcar line, all of which fed into the Union complex. Due to the limitations of the available alignments, this dependence is only going to worsen. It needn't be a security incident, it could be a fire, a flood, a loss of electrical power.

Add to that the likely difficulty of routing metro's turn radii under the Loop Line Bridge and Connolly's foundations and digging into the basement to create a platform.

Aard

Myers:

We are borrowing €20bn a year merely to run the State and to pay civil servants' salaries and pensions. And yet we still propose to build the Metro?

I would have thought the rational thing to do would be to reduce the number of civil/public servants and/or their salaries, and invest in infrastructure.

DWCommuter

Aard wrote: »

Myers:

I would have thought the rational thing to do would be to reduce the number of civil/public servants and/or their salaries, and invest in infrastructure.

It would be rational, but the Government don't have the balls to do it. Add to that the continued proping up of Anglo (for no known reason;)) and infrastructure is doomed. But best of luck to those who believe it will happen.

xper

Aard wrote: »

Myers:
I would have thought the rational thing to do would be to reduce the number of civil/public servants and/or their salaries, and invest in infrastructure

I can't help but notice that the government has considerably reduced my public sector salary already and all those nice people that were on non-permanent contracts don't come into the office anymore and our services have had to be curtailed as a result.

Aard

Why don't they have the balls to do it, though? Only* 20% of workers are public servants. Are they worried about losing votes? Or is it because unions are so strong? Or is it just nepotism to the max, and they don't want their friends losing jobs?


*Yes, I know.

DWCommuter

Aard wrote: »

Why don't they have the balls to do it, though? Only* 20% of workers are public servants. Are they worried about losing votes? Or is it because unions are so strong? Or is it just nepotism to the max, and they don't want their friends losing jobs?


*Yes, I know.

That 20% you refer to actually run the country in administrative terms. Piss them off and public services grind to a halt. This takes us back to their unions, which are indeed strong.

Aard

xper wrote: »

I can't help but notice that the government has considerably reduced my public sector salary already and all those nice people that were on non-permanent contracts don't come into the office anymore and our services have had to be curtailed as a result.

My father's too. I understand that people's salaries have been reduced already. Even the public service should be run as a business. When a business is in dire straits, it naturally has to fire people. It streamlines performance.

We can't save our way out of a recession. (Not that I'm advocating going crazy on the spending.) But like somebody said before, all other countries invest in infrastructure to stimulate the economy. Funnelling the money into the Metro will create jobs, and improve productivity in the long-run. Funnelling it directly into salaries does nothing to solve the problem, and prolongs the agony.

At the risk of sounding like a commie, think of the greater good!

Amtmann

Lads, I'm reluctant to interject here, but we are drifting off-topic talking about public sector reform. Reign it in please.

Aard

Duly noted.


To get back on topic:
Judging by the Indo's large readership, and Myers' apparent large following, I would think that the man on the street is somewhat against the Metro. Have there been any polls done to establish whether this is the case?

D.L.R.

"Let me admit now that I don't understand anything about economics."
- Kevin Myers

...or mass transit

Empire o de Sun

Do I miss Challenging Times? :rolleyes:

spacetweek

latenia wrote: »

Whatever your opinion of Myers, he's correct on this one. Connolly should be designated as 'Central Station' with all national and international passenger links- rail, bus, air, and sea, terminating there.

Connolly isn't the heart of the city, and it already has the DART. The whole point here is to create other nodes in the city - there'll be three: Drumcondra (DART/Metro), Stephens Green (DART/Metro/Luas), Pearse (DART/DART) plus the ones that handle intercity and tram traffic (Heuston and Connolly).

D.L.R. wrote: »

"Let me admit now that I don't understand anything about economics." - Kevin Myers

Aard wrote: »

"We are borrowing €20bn a year merely to run the State and to pay civil servants' salaries and pensions. And yet we still propose to build the Metro?" - Kevin Myers

There's proof of his lack of understanding alright! Doesn't know the diff between current and capital expenditure.

Aard wrote: »

Duly noted.
To get back on topic:
Judging by the Indo's large readership, and Myers' apparent large following, I would think that the man on the street is somewhat against the Metro. Have there been any polls done to establish whether this is the case?

I am really, really afraid that this might be the case - that people believe him and you get opposition. It's true that there'll be disruption in the city centre and if it's combined with public misinformation it could cause a lot of problems for the project.