Kevin Myers writes anti-Metro column (x4) [SEE MOD WARNING POST #1]

BrianD

Johnny Utah wrote: »

More horse sh1te from the real-life troll that is Kevin Myers, but then why let a few salient facts get in the way of a good rant. :rolleyes:

(1) MN is not a railway line to the airport. It is a railway line which serves a number of important areas in north Dublin (Mater, Croke Park, Swords), including Dublin airport. MN needs to be viewed as part of an overall transport network which will transform the city.

The problem is that both the G'ment and RPA have played into Myers hands on this one. There was never definitive plans and the public aren't clear and what is being built. Furthermore the RPA we're going to build the line as an Airport-Stephens green route originally that serviced no mainline rail. In facr they are going to build it anyway even if the interconnector is or isn't. The other item to note is that there is no actual overall plan. It's being made up as we go along.

I support the building of nw transport links within the city but they way the powers that be especially the RPA is clueless. No wonder Myers is having a field day.

(2) MN will not cost €5bn. More accurate estimates gauge the project costing under €2bn.

Isn't the price the big mystery?

(3) It will be built under PPP, and consequently, it is most likely to at least be completed on time and on budget.

Err the RPA are building it. Budget and time keeping have eluded them so far.

(4) Stephen's Green will not be closed for two years. Only the north-west corner of Stephen's Green will be closed during construction of the underground station. A small number of trees on the north of the Green will be felled, but these will replaced afterwards. When construction is finished, the Green will be fully restored as it is now.

Stephens Green is going to be an unfortunate but neccesary victim of this. However, the changes to the green are going to be dramatic and not as light as you suggest. There's also a large building to go which I can't understand is not being placed underground.

crucamim

CerebralCortex wrote: »

The guy is delusional. Does he expect that the economy will never pick up again?

Mr Myers is not my favourite person but, if he expects that the economy will never pick up again, he might be correct.

DWCommuter

LeinsterDub wrote: »

MN will require little money up front and will take create job thus saving us dole money which should help our borrowings and increasing our tax intake

Please stop this false hope baloney talk. While Myers may be an eejit and the true cost of MN unknown, it is wrong to assume that just because its a PPP and the cost must be borne out over 30 odd years, that the current economy can afford it or the Government can stomach the the making of a decision.

Its still a committment to pay "an apparent" 300 million per annum to the consortium that builds it. When one considers the real financial state of the country and not the fake one, a sum like this makes a big difference to the DOF mandarins. Please refer to the unfolding economic crisis part two for Ireland.Think Nama and Anglo.

The "no money up front" argument makes no difference.

I'd love to see it built, but I just don't believe it will be in the short term. Why? Read your history. Irish Governments just don't do deals like this in uncertain times. This is not the Westlink toll bridge!:D

Sponge Bob

Myers is being used to rant(sic) things up so that MN can be taken out because pubic(sic) opinion demands it.

Christ knows who is putting him up to this campaign though. Too many suspects to name.

FYI

Where in name of god did Myers come up with the 'facts' in this piece? Is there any checking at the Independent at all?

So the tunnel section of this particular piece of infrastructure is only two miles long. That poses a little bit of a problem. It is quite difficult to make a like for like comparison if the projects are entirely dissimilar. Now I don’t know where Myers’ figure for “100 million tonnes of concrete” came from, but it likely has a lot to do with the 5,189 concrete piles used to support the 20 km long bridge over water with a depth between 25-100 ft. But that’s entirely irrelevant, you just simply can’t compare a bridge with a tunnel.

On the other hand the Dublin Port Tunnel (DPT), you would have thought, is a more appropriate project to make the sort of comparison Myers is attempting.

According to Banagher Concrete Ltd, the company who produce the DPT’s precast segments (and confirmed by The Irish Concrete Federation):

“The lining consists of 3,037 rings with an internal diameter of 10.84m and a thickness of 350mm. Each ring is made up of six segments, weighing 8 tonnes each, and one key segment weighing 2.3 tonnes.”

So that’s 3,037 rings multiplied by six segments at 8 tonnes and one at 2.3 tonnes, which works out at 152,761 tonnes.

http://mediabite.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/theres-bad-journalism-and-then-theres-bad-journalism/

oharach

FYI wrote: »

Where in name of god did Myers come up with the 'facts' in this piece? Is there any checking at the Independent at all?

http://mediabite.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/theres-bad-journalism-and-then-theres-bad-journalism/

I pointed this out above as well. Myers goes beyond 'bad journalism' and into the realm of deliberate misinformation and downright lies. It's clear from a cursory look at the Wikipedia page that he took whatever facts suited him from there (and thus knew it was a raised bridge all along).

I'm all for a free press, and I know that will involve half-truths and spin, but pure fictional propoganda is dangerous.

zootroid

crucamim wrote: »

Mr Myers is not my favourite person but, if he expects that the economy will never pick up again, he might be correct.

They probably said that after 1929. Recessions/depressions don't last forever

spacetweek

crucamim wrote: »

Mr Myers is not my favourite person but, if he expects that the economy will never pick up again, he might be correct.

An absolutely nuts opinion. That's just like assuming you're going to get Alzheimers at the age of 80 so killing yourself now to avoid it.

crucamim

spacetweek wrote: »

An absolutely nuts opinion. That's just like assuming you're going to get Alzheimers at the age of 80 so killing yourself now to avoid it.

I hope that my opionion proves to be a nuts opinion. I do admit to being in a bout of depression.

dowlingm

I have to rank DU and MN 1 and 2 in priority though. DU links already constructed infrastructure and has a knock-on effect on other projects if it doesn't get done. MN is standalone with the exception of the DU transfer station.

NuMarvel

dowlingm wrote: »

I have to rank DU and MN 1 and 2 in priority though. DU links already constructed infrastructure and has a knock-on effect on other projects if it doesn't get done. MN is standalone with the exception of the DU transfer station.

Just on that point, MN will also connect with Commuter and Dart services at Drumcondra, assuming the DART has been re-formatted to two lines by that stage. The O'Connell Street stop will also put it within walking distance of Luas's Abbey Street stop. These two stops, in conjunction with Stephen's Green, open up a range of transport options with Luas Red, Luas Green, DART and Commuter.

Outside of transport infrastructure, it will have stops at the Mater Hospitals (including the new Paediatric Hospital if it proceeds) and DCU.

From an "on the ground" perspective (i.e. not an infrastructure expert), I think DU and MN are both equally needed and if we're going to do one, we need to do the other.

Metrostar

Kevin Myers is damaged goods ever since he wrote that appaling column about single mothers. Forget about him. He is a peripheral player.

The biggest worry I have is An Board Pleaneala, an unaccountable quango which comes under little or no media scrutiny.

We all know Metro North is a complex project, but how the hell can it take more than TWO YEARS to give it a yes or no. This is ridiculous. Now it the cheapest time to build a metro, with tender prices at levels not seen in years. Let's go and build this thing now and lock in the savings. The government should go over An Bord Pleneala's head and cut this quango out of the picture.

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_north/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/default.aspx

Johnny Utah

Agreed metrostar, the problem with this country is that we spend more time talking about building something than actually building it!

dowlingm

NuMarvel wrote: »

Just on that point, MN will also connect with Commuter and Dart services at Drumcondra, assuming the DART has been re-formatted to two lines by that stage.

My point was the DU and MN stations will essentially be integrated - it may not be practical to delay the MN construction if retrofitting it later would cause structural issues to the DU station. There is precedent for building ghost stations in that manner, although not all come to fruition...

DWCommuter

The projected cost of MN is still causing problems. I feel correct in saying that the €5 billion figure was the last one touted from official sources.

Allen has expressed concern about comparisons between rail projects made only on the basis of cost per kilometre. He said the RPA stood over its figure of €4.8 billion as the total cost of the metro as a public-private partnership. This included construction, design and property compensation, and took in inflation

Since then a veil of secrecy has surrounded the figures in an attempt to get better value for money by not showing our cards. However this does not mean the project will neccessarily cost less than originally envisaged.

spacetweek

Metrostar wrote: »

Kevin Myers is damaged goods ever since he wrote that appaling column about single mothers. Forget about him. He is a peripheral player.

I remember that. Do you remember the other article he wrote around the same time? He said that the DART line should be paved over and turned into a road in order to *increase transport capacity*.

Case rested.

Cool Mo D

Kevin Myers also wrote an article criticising the Sligo - Dublin train. He said that since Dublin is big, and Sligo is small, the trains from Dublin might be busy, but the trains from Sligo would be empty. It was about then that I couldn't take anything he said remotely seriously.

westtip

Metrostar wrote: »

Kevin Myers is damaged goods ever since he wrote that appaling column about single mothers. http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_north/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/default.aspx

Appalling - depends on your point of view I thought he got it spot on with that particular subject.

Spacedog

I don't get why we don't have a metro in every city in ireland. if you go to london, you'll see that half the citys tube tunnels are from the victorian era, and mainly built by us faakin paddiiis too!

it's a shame we can't be arsed building some for ourselves without charging a squillian for it.

it's not hard, dig a trench, rip out any auld cables along the way lash down a tube of steel gurders, cement over, cable ducting, a few service entrences, cover over. done

of course that's not how we do business, it's all brown envelopes n health 'n' safety she-ite

SD

mgmt

Spacedog wrote: »

I don't get why we don't have a metro in every city in ireland. if you go to london, you'll see that half the citys tube tunnels are from the victorian era, and mainly built by us faakin paddiiis too!

London is blessed with having soft clay making it easy to build tunnels

Aard

No city bar Dublin is large enough to warrant a metro. Tramway, maybe.

Empire o de Sun

mgmt wrote: »

London is blessed with having soft clay making it easy to build tunnels

North London is, south London isn't so lucky, few tube lines there.

Empire o de Sun

Spacedog wrote: »

I don't get why we don't have a metro in every city in ireland. if you go to london, you'll see that half the citys tube tunnels are from the victorian era, and mainly built by us faakin paddiiis too!

it's a shame we can't be arsed building some for ourselves without charging a squillian for it.

it's not hard, dig a trench, rip out any auld cables along the way lash down a tube of steel gurders, cement over, cable ducting, a few service entrences, cover over. done

of course that's not how we do business, it's all brown envelopes n health 'n' safety she-ite

SD

One problem is that people think it is free money, as in, when they need to purchase land etc. People should be paid correctly for their property but all to often people hold out for as long as they can to get as much as they can.

lods

Posters up around the city centre saying "No to Metro North"

http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869#!/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869?v=wall

dubhthach

lods wrote: »

Posters up around the city centre saying "No to Metro North"

http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869#!/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869?v=wall

Who ever designed those posters needs a good kicking. How the hell is it going to cost 15billion (implication of white elephant with 15bil written on it)? Also how the hell does the Metro lead to a "non-living city centre" if anything it makes the city centre more livable by removing the need for people living along it's route to use cars to get in and out of the city centre. :rolleyes:

Empire o de Sun

dubhthach wrote: »

Who ever designed those posters needs a good kicking. How the hell is it going to cost 15billion (implication of white elephant with 15bil written on it)? Also how the hell does the Metro lead to a "non-living city centre" if anything it makes the city centre more livable by removing the need for people living along it's route to use cars to get in and out of the city centre. :rolleyes:

Maybe the think mass transit is only to link places where people live and not as a link between residential and commercial areas (where people work, shop, go out, etc... )

lods

dubhthach wrote: »

Who ever designed those posters needs a good kicking. How the hell is it going to cost 15billion (implication of white elephant with 15bil written on it)? Also how the hell does the Metro lead to a "non-living city centre" if anything it makes the city centre more livable by removing the need for people living along it's route to use cars to get in and out of the city centre. :rolleyes:

The Dublin Port Tunnel went from an estimated cost of €220m in 2000 to €580m in 2002, then to a final cost of €789m -- some 350pc of the original estimate. The M50 widening increased from €190m to €560m: 300 pc of the estimate. The Luas went up from €290m to €750m.

So all government predictions are in the realm of how long is a piece of string?

Therefore, allowing (modestly) that the Metro will probably cost 300pc of the original estimate, the final bill will be about €15bn. But this is not even like squandering money on a greenfield site in north county Dublin. No, the project requires a series of major assaults on the streetscape of Dublin and on the already-bleeding commercial centre around Grafton Street.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-the-metro-is-an-insane-idea-and-a-disaster-for-dublin-2310177.html

straight from Kevin Myarse

D.L.R.

I find it hard to believe there is a lobby of people out there who truly believe that a quick fix cost cutting measure is preferable to shelling out for some decent transport, and seeing the benefits this would bring for a hundred years and more.

They don't seem concerned about the positive change it would bring to Dublin, just a barrage of "no"s and negativity and "can't afford it"s.

We can afford to bail out talentless bankers though. Oh yeah, no problem. 80 billion? Here, have 100 billion. Feck it, I'll write you a post dated cheque for a trillion and we'll call it quits.

I'm sure some amongst this group also were involved in the "NO HIGH RISE" billboards a decade ago. And look where that lead us... nowhere interesting anyway.

Ireland could be the best country in the world if we spent our money more wisely and just looked around us for the best ideas. We should be up there with scandinavia, but instead we're snout deep in the trough with the other pigs. Sickening really. What could have been.

Don't these anti-metro lobbyists consider that Dublin remaining metro-less for another 10-20 years just to save some talentless bankers career, is infinitely more braindead than just coughing up for some decent transport?

Aard

Myers:

Therefore, allowing (modestly) that the Metro will probably cost 300pc of the original estimate, the final bill will be about €15bn. But this is not even like squandering money on a greenfield site in north county Dublin. No, the project requires a series of major assaults on the streetscape of Dublin and on the already-bleeding commercial centre around Grafton Street.

I know it's futile, but here's another one. Previously, he has said that there's nothing around Stephen's Green, save parks and Government departments. Now, here, he's talking about the commercial centre around Grafton St, aka the prime commercial centre of the country.

====

Here's another one from that facebook group:

Tens of thousands of people are repaying mortgages that are vastly greater than their homes are worth. Unemployment is rocketing, as entire swathes of the secondary economy -- restaurants, shops, taxi companies, solicitors -- are collapsing. Yet the Government, nonetheless, determinedly proceeds with the most expensive ...infrastructural project in the history of the capital.

Are they being ironic? I don't get it at all. Do they not realise that having the metro in place makes the city centre more accessible? Restaurants will benefit, shops will benefit. Not sure about the taxis or solicitors. This is an investment in the city that will have a payoff far greater than the cost. What would they prefer the Government did with the money? Prop up failing businesses? Current vs. capital expenditure comes to mind...

lods

Aard wrote: »

Myers:

I know it's futile, but here's another one. Previously, he has said that there's nothing around Stephen's Green, save parks and Government departments. Now, here, he's talking about the commercial centre around Grafton St, aka the prime commercial centre of the country.

====

Here's another one from that facebook group:


Are they being ironic? I don't get it at all. Do they not realise that having the metro in place makes the city centre more accessible? Restaurants will benefit, shops will benefit. Not sure about the taxis or solicitors. This is an investment in the city that will have a payoff far greater than the cost. What would they prefer the Government did with the money? Prop up failing businesses? Current vs. capital expenditure comes to mind...

Not going to be a lot of sympathy taxis or solicitors:rolleyes:. RPA are to blame for not being more open. Are there any plans for more underground lines other than just metro north?