New rules for taxing vans/jeeps as commerical ??

djimi

Surely if you are a farmer you have some way of proving you own a farm, no? Even if it doesnt involve a VAT number or company registration cert.

Cookie_Monster

Reagan Uneven Reactor wrote: »

I can guarantee you that this is how 90% of people think it works anyway. For a start a lot of people actually think its not allowed to to tax a van privately. This forum is the only place where people talk about taxing vans privately. I mentioned it to a few people who have car vans recently about all this supposed to tax privately rubbish and I was just laughed at.

my dad, who knows little about cars, found it no problem to get the van changed over to private tax and insurance and tyres when it was no longer used for work. As long as you aren't completely stupid, its a pretty easy thing to check via the net, email or phone...

Cookie_Monster

landyman wrote: »

My dad is a part time farmer and we are not VAT registered, nor do we have a company registration cert or anything like that. The jeep is used to move livestock and feed in place of the tractor, of which we don't have at the moment. The farm is run to make money but however we are not eligible for commercial tax? Where is the fairness in that????

is that all its used for though?

Probably a separate "farming" category is required as a subset of the commercial one, with slightly altered conditions to allow farmers to prove it more easily given the multitude of paperwork they already have for all the various licences, grants, stock ownership certs, cattle/grain/milk sales or quotas that they would already have

gofaster_s13

landyman wrote: »

Exactly. And for the people that say that a commercial vehicle should only be used for 'commercial' purposes? How many times have you seen a van in tescos? You can bet any amount of money that every one of them will have commercial tax.

Yes they will have commercial tax but the law was never enforced and now they are starting to enforce it. Large companys like Coca Cola who have big fleets of vans always taxed their fleets privately because of this law as the drivers are allowed use them for social use after working hours.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

my dad, who knows little about cars, found it no problem to get the van changed over to private tax and insurance and tyres when it was no longer used for work. As long as you aren't completely stupid, its a pretty easy thing to check via the net, email or phone...

But people don't want to change to private tax, that would be a very stupid move paying 2 or 3 times more for tax when up to now anyway its no problem to tax commercially.

I had a car van myself for over year for commuting in and out of college and a few bits on the farm/ part time work for a builder and never had a problem using commercial tax, plenty of my friends did the same for the cheap tax and cheaper insurance on a car van over a car and no one ever had a problem

Cookie_Monster

Reagan Uneven Reactor wrote: »

But people don't want to change to private tax, that would be a very stupid move paying 2 or 3 times more for tax.

The price you pay for being an honest and decent person I guess :rolleyes:

rebel.ranter

Will all those with commercial X5/Toureg/RR Sport that are not business related now also be liable for the VRT seeing as they are no longer for commercial use?

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The price you pay for being an honest and decent person I guess :rolleyes:

I couldn't give a fiddlers about the governments coffers tbh, Id feel much better in myself for saving the few 100 euro than sitting on a perch of decency with a lighter pocket. It actually physically pains me to pay anything to the government.

As I said earlier when the farmers kick up this could all be swept under the carpet again.

gbee

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Yes they will have commercial tax but the law was never enforced and now they are starting to enforce it. Large companys like Coca Cola who have big fleets of vans always taxed their fleets privately because of this law as the drivers are allowed use them for social use after working hours.

I think you are getting this mixed up with insurance. When I got my first van it was technically illegal for me to use it after 8PM in the evening for tax purposes and I had to make sure I had the additional insurance to cover social and domestic usage of it. Technically, I was running the risk of being asked to vacate my vehicle after 8PM, unless returning home after a job, but I've never heard of anyone being done for this ~

Now, you can't use a private vehicle for commercial purposes, full stop. You cannot get insurance for a private vehicle for 'commercial' purposes, you'll find it expressly excluded in 'car' insurance ~ a van becomes a car for private purposes and a 4x4 [Jeep] is a Van for commercial purposes.

I'd like you to recheck your sources on that about Coca Cola, but I suspect you'll find their sales force were 'technically' self employed.

R.O.R

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Yes they will have commercial tax but the law was never enforced and now they are starting to enforce it. Large companys like Coca Cola who have big fleets of vans always taxed their fleets privately because of this law as the drivers are allowed use them for social use after working hours.

gbee wrote: »

I think you are getting this mixed up with insurance. When I got my first van it was technically illegal for me to use it after 8PM in the evening for tax purposes and I had to make sure I had the additional insurance to cover social and domestic usage of it. Technically, I was running the risk of being asked to vacate my vehicle after 8PM, unless returning home after a job, but I've never heard of anyone being done for this ~

Now, you can't use a private vehicle for commercial purposes, full stop. You cannot get insurance for a private vehicle for 'commercial' purposes, you'll find it expressly excluded in 'car' insurance ~ a van becomes a car for private purposes and a 4x4 [Jeep] is a Van for commercial purposes.

I'd like you to recheck your sources on that about Coca Cola, but I suspect you'll find their sales force were 'technically' self employed.

gofaster is right, The Coke fleet is where I first heard of vans being taxed privately. It's because one of the drivers was stopped using his van for something non work related. Since then they have all been privately taxed - nothing at all to do with insurance and the van drivers are all employed by Coca Cola Hellenic.

gofaster_s13

100% sure on the Coca Cola thing, the vehicles are taxed privately, they have commercial insurance with a social, domestic and personal sub clause(same as the commercial policy I have which has social,domestic and personal sub clause).

gofaster_s13

This is the form people are being made to fill out for taxing goods vehicles, whether the tax offices actually check up on the details is another story;)

http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/MotorTax/MotorTaxForms/PDFFile,8465,en.pdf

gbee

I've used that form in the past, it was for changing the status of the vehicle.

Over the years it was cheaper to have private or commercial tax and I'd change as the tax code changed.

I do have sole trader registration, [somewhere] but nothing else, Tax clearance or VAT.

There is another form for use as the only vehicle ~ ask a traveller, he'll know.

Skuxx

gbee wrote: »

Technically, I was running the risk of being asked to vacate my vehicle after 8PM, unless returning home after a job.

Are they going to start enforcing this rule too? I just bought a car van for commuting to work and for the cheaper insurance as I'm a 19 yr old male and it has commercial tax up until next may! It is insured as a private vehicle but as I said the tax is commercial! Are they going to say I can't drive the fcuking thing after 8 o'clock!! Haha this country is a joke!

gbee

alan1990 wrote: »

Are they going to say I can't drive the fcuking thing after 8 o'clock!! Haha this country is a joke!

It's an old law, just like the one they're resurrecting, I don't know if it was repealed, but it applied to roughly the Two-Tonne Transit van and above.

The essence was to curtail heavy commercial traffic at night and at weekends. But the way the law was written a small van could be interpreted as needing compliance.

So who knows with this government ~ I think my next purchase will be a Tank, and I'll only need fuel for it as far as Dublin!

Eric Cartman

alan1990 wrote: »

Are they going to start enforcing this rule too? I just bought a car van for commuting to work and for the cheaper insurance as I'm a 19 yr old male and it has commercial tax up until next may! It is insured as a private vehicle but as I said the tax is commercial! Are they going to say I can't drive the fcuking thing after 8 o'clock!! Haha this country is a joke!

no, thats for insurance, if its insured privately then you are fine to use it at all hours but if customs stop you theyll get you for back tax back as far as youve owned the vehicle .

Vat number or company reg im not pushed on , its about time as a lot of people have been taxing vehicles commercially for no reason, im all for the gards pulling over RR's, x5's etc... outside schools, but while it is technically illegal if i finish a job at 1am and head up to the pub and have a few cokes then give a mate a lift home its illegal in a commercial vehicle, the goverment expects me to drive home, get my private car , drive back and then enjoy my evening ,

8/9 times out of 10 im using my van commercially but i have been stopped on occasion coming home from a job at half 2 , and asked what am I doing out in a van at this time, saying your on 24 hour callout normally works

also if anyone knows of a tax office asking for tax clearance cert please tell me , vat or CRO number i dont mind, but i dont have a TCC

gbee

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im all for the gards pulling over RR's, x5's etc... outside schools,

Most of these are private. They've been tightening up for a few years, three years go my regular DOE boss shouted at me "have you seats in the back of that?"

So obviously some must have escaped into the wild.

But I can't imagine the majority of women leaving off their children at school would risk it in a 'commercial vehicle' but with 7-Seats and clear glass and technically NO Insurance ** ????.

gofaster_s13

gbee wrote: »

But I can't imagine the majority of women leaving off their children at school would risk it in a 'commercial vehicle' but with 7-Seats and clear glass and technically NO Insurance ** ????.

Yes they do would if they thought they'd save a few euro.

Skuxx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

...i have been stopped on occasion coming home from a job at half 2 , and asked what am I doing out in a van at this time, saying your on 24 hour callout normally works

Just reading this made me remember about 4/5 weeks ago I was stopped at a garda check point checking for tax/ insurance on a fairly quiet country road at about 8 o'clock in the evening. After looking at the window the guard said "ye coming home from work lads?"
I thought he was just being polite and said "no, just out for a spin!!"
I was driving a comercailly taxed and insured Berlingo van!

Eric Cartman

alan1990 wrote: »

Just reading this made me remember about 4/5 weeks ago I was stopped at a garda check point checking for tax/ insurance on a fairly quiet country road at about 8 o'clock in the evening. After looking at the window the guard said "ye coming home from work lads?"
I thought he was just being polite and said "no, just out for a spin!!"
I was driving a comercailly taxed and insured Berlingo van!

hahaha constantly on callout man, its the only way to be

kazul

landyman wrote: »

My dad is a part time farmer and we are not VAT registered, nor do we have a company registration cert or anything like that. The jeep is used to move livestock and feed in place of the tractor, of which we don't have at the moment. The farm is run to make money but however we are not eligible for commercial tax? Where is the fairness in that????

You are right Averie High Scholarship. The farmers lobby group are a very powerful group in this country. There will be war about it

If he's paying his taxes on farm income and using a jeep as a work vehicle then he should only be paying commercial tax.

Maybe he should get a quad?

Re. farmers' lobby, don't make me laugh. There's plenty of aul fellas trundling around our roads who never sat a driving test and don't have a clue.
And plenty more using marked diesel.

patwicklow

well some has to pay for 100k flight to London dont they.....more fools us eah,
and they,l just keep trowing extra costs at us until we all end up with wheel barrows.

patwicklow

well some has to pay for 100k flight to London dont they.....more fools us eah,
and they,l just keep trowing extra costs at us until we all end up with wheel barrows.

danjo

djimi wrote: »

Surely if you are a farmer you have some way of proving you own a farm, no? Even if it doesnt involve a VAT number or company registration cert.

Farmers would be classified as sole traders or partners depending on how the farm is owned/operated. IMOP They would be entitled to commercial tax rate on vehicles used exclusively for farming.

I think this new drive to move non-commercial use vehicles to private class is a signal that car tax will take a bit hike in the next budget.

-Chris-

rebel.ranter wrote: »

Will all those with commercial X5/Toureg/RR Sport that are not business related now also be liable for the VRT seeing as they are no longer for commercial use?

If they don't have rear seats/seatbelts/windows they're fine for VRT but should be taxed privately.
If you put the rear seats back in you're liable for VRT.

Simples!

patwicklow wrote: »

well some has to pay for 100k flight to London dont they.....more fools us eah,
and they,l just keep trowing extra costs at us until we all end up with wheel barrows.

I'm not sure what this added to a discussion about motor tax. Take the politics rants to the politics forum.

patwicklow

-Chris- wrote: »

If they don't have rear seats/seatbelts/windows they're fine for VRT but should be taxed privately.
If you put the rear seats back in you're liable for VRT.

Simples!




I'm not sure what this added to a discussion about motor tax. Take the politics rants to the politics forum.

it aint a rant its true roads that are in awful condition and the cost just goes up and up thats the problem were just told to shut up and move on
politics rants to the politics?? sure aint tax that any way

-Chris-

I've no idea what you're talking about...

Esel

Cormie? You out there?

snowman707

kazul wrote: »

Re. farmers' lobby, don't make me laugh. There's plenty of aul fellas trundling around our roads who never sat a driving test and don't have a clue.
And plenty more using marked diesel.

I am an old fellow and a farmer, and i passed my driving first time sometime in the 1970's

in spite of paying tax and insurance on 9 vehicles every year I still pay a contractor to trim the road hedges on my property, to make "OUR" roads safe not only for ourselves but also for the non farming community that use "our" roads in my area, because our local co. council thinks is more important to send 2 of our councillors to New York for a p1ss up for St Patrick's Day that to patch pot holes or cut hedges.

by the way the last 3 convictions I have heard of for green diesel here in the last few years, were a taxi driver, a builder, and a publican, none of whom were farmers.

yes you are probably correct .. I don't have a clue

Max Power1

danjo wrote: »

Farmers would be classified as sole traders or partners depending on how the farm is owned/operated. IMOP They would be entitled to commercial tax rate on vehicles used exclusively for farming.

I think this new drive to move non-commercial use vehicles to private class is a signal that car tax will take a bit hike in the next budget.

I cant see how it wont take a hike tbh.

The rates being paid have gone from 300-400 average to some paying 104 or 154. This isnt going to be sustainable for much longer (ie as every year passes, more people move from cars on the -dearer in most cases - CC based system, to cars on the newer cheaper CO2 system).

I hope the increases are solely for cars on the new system and not the CC based system though, older cars are taxed too high compared to new ones as it is.

Cmar-Ireland

They should just make it something like 400 euro for everything. Regardless of engine cc.
At least it would allow some of the older luxo barges back on the road, instead of rotting away 'cos it's more than the car is worth to tax them :mad: !

Max Power1

Cmar-Ireland wrote: »

They should just make it something like 400 euro for everything. Regardless of engine cc.
At least it would allow some of the older luxo barges back on the road, instead of rotting away 'cos it's more than the car is worth to tax them :mad: !

Id be hugely in favour of that tbh.

Howver the greens (:rolleyes:) will surely veto a move that doesnt penalise the high polluting cars.

rebel.ranter

This thread is not really about how motor tax should be collected it's about enforcement of a pre-existing law.
The real way to collect motor tax is through fuel, more you burn the more you pay, offer some rebate system then for commercial users.

Max Power1

rebel.ranter wrote: »

This thread is not really about how motor tax should be collected it's about enforcement of a pre-existing law.
The real way to collect motor tax is through fuel, more you burn the more you pay, offer some rebate system then for commercial users.

We have this already!

Duty etc on fuel is ridiculously high as it is! We are at the same prices at the pumps now (or higher) as we were at the time of the 2008 spike in crude oil prices - all due to the increase in duty in the meantime!

rebel.ranter

Increase it more & do away with the disc in the window, admin staff supporting it, database for it, website for it, court time wasted on it, arbitrary rates based on a fixed CO2 emission, the whole lot in the bin.

sandt

rebel.ranter wrote: »

Increase it more & do away with the disc in the window, admin staff supporting it, database for it, website for it, court time wasted on it, arbitrary rates based on a fixed CO2 emission, the whole lot in the bin.

agree with all of that

but the only thing is, dont the govt get fined by the EU by going over our pollution quota, and the govt always have to buy 'credits' off other countries?? so this CO2 emission thing is to try and help with that?

but im with you id be happy to pay a bit extra at the pumps and do away with road tax, at least then its a fair system - the more you drive the more you pay.

moonshadow

SO if a van is now taxed the same as a car does that mean the guy in the toll booth will charge only €1.80 instead of €3.40 for a "commercial vehicle",that is going to cause some qeues on the M1;)

-Chris-

That's a very good point!

gmb

Max Power1 wrote: »

I cant see how it wont take a hike tbh..

Surely by clamping down on motor tax evasion by private van drivers then the total amount of tax collected will increase and there will be less of a need for a hike.

I agree with the suggestion to put tax on fuel. I drive about 2,000 miles a year in a Ford Focus that costs be over €500 a year to tax under the current system so taxing fuel would seem fairer.

danjo

moonshadow wrote: »

SO if a van is now taxed the same as a car does that mean the guy in the toll booth will charge only €1.80 instead of €3.40 for a "commercial vehicle",that is going to cause some qeues on the M1;)

I cannot see any issue here. As far as I know toll charge is dependent on vehicle type not motor taxation class.
So vans etc will continue to pay the higher toll irrespective of motor tax classification imho.

danjo

gmb wrote: »

Surely by clamping down on motor tax evasion by private van drivers then the total amount of tax collected will increase and there will be less of a need for a hike.

Yes, but as said by Max, there would be a significant reduction in tax take due to the newer vehicles with low Co2 emmissions.
I think we would be naive not to expect a big hike in December. I think the Green influence will push for the increase on the older CC rated vehicles.:eek: Hope I'm wrong.

Buffman

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

100% sure on the Coca Cola thing, the vehicles are taxed privately, they have commercial insurance with a social, domestic and personal sub clause(same as the commercial policy I have which has social,domestic and personal sub clause).

That's interesting, I'm surprised some of the haulage companies haven't tried this with their HGV's, as the maximum private tax under the old CC system is €1566, while for large goods vehicles it can be a lot more. (€4496 max AFAIK).

gbee

And during all this, on Today FM finance programme, a headline reads that Brian Lenihan TD was considering a proposal to abolish road tax and tolls, in favour of a super levy on fuel instead.

Only problem with this ideas is how soon someone will campaign for the reintroduction of service charges ... ooooops, my bad, road tax. force of habit, sorry.

Max Power1

gmb wrote: »

Surely by clamping down on motor tax evasion by private van drivers then the total amount of tax collected will increase and there will be less of a need for a hike.

I agree with the suggestion to put tax on fuel. I drive about 2,000 miles a year in a Ford Focus that costs be over €500 a year to tax under the current system so taxing fuel would seem fairer.

Yes but it penalises the heavier user, hence would cripple any commuters or transport business financially. Even factoring in for the stupidity of the current government, even they must realise that putting a super tax on fuel instead of road tax would cripple a lot of businesses (even local SMEs that rely on transport or commuting)

Also I really hope that the immenent increase is in the new emmissions rates, and not the old CC rates. It is unfair for those running older cars to take a higher tax hit (on the same car & model in some cases) than people who can afford a newer car.

Del2005

Max Power1 wrote: »

Also I really hope that the immenent increase is in the new emmissions rates, and not the old CC rates. It is unfair for those running older cars to take a higher tax hit (on the same car & model in some cases) than people who can afford a newer car.

If they do greatly increase the tax rate on the CC system it will show what a mockery the Greens are.

By scrapping, perfectly serviceable, older cars by increasing the tax rate a whole new car will have to be built which will never recover the CO2 consumed by it's construction, shipping and scrapping of the old car. It would make sense if it was only a local issue but the Greens keep telling us it's global and then ignoring the big picture.

Eric Cartman

Buffman wrote: »

That's interesting, I'm surprised some of the haulage companies haven't tried this with their HGV's, as the maximum private tax under the old CC system is €1566, while for large goods vehicles it can be a lot more. (€4496 max AFAIK).

a private vehicle has to have a GVW below 3500kg so as nice as it would be, it would never work

Eric Cartman

the only positive thing about them abolishing road tax would be that I would be able to give old 7 series and other large engined luxobarges a good home to take them out the odd time i can afford the fuel ,

the goverment is getting a bit mad with this , the only good thing about it is that if they bring it in, in 12 months time they wont even be checking for it as all the private users without companies will be off the roads, so people with companies could get away with the odd trip to the shop etc...

O.A.P

I have just taxed my landrover in Ennis no problem at all. No questions asked just the same as any other time I've taxed it apart from I was expecting to be asked for a tax number after reading this thread.

djimi

gbee wrote: »

And during all this, on Today FM finance programme, a headline reads that Brian Lenihan TD was considering a proposal to abolish road tax and tolls, in favour of a super levy on fuel instead.

Only problem with this ideas is how soon someone will campaign for the reintroduction of service charges ... ooooops, my bad, road tax. force of habit, sorry.

Id be happy to see road tax scrapped in favour of a levy on fuel, but not tolls. I use toll roads maybe ten times a year; no way Im paying for them every time put petrol in my car.

Cmar-Ireland

When ( if ) this goes ahead, it would completely devalue the large 4x4 market. These would be worth feck all if the annual tax jumped by €1000. The market will be flooded by people trying to get rid of them, and who in their right mind will buy them?