Deliberately spreading HIV - what punishment fits the crime?

Blush_01

We were talking about the HIV positive pop star from Germany who didn't take precautions to avoid spreading the virus when sleeping with partners in work today, as a result of a segment heard by one of my colleagues on the radio. On the radio show, they interviewed a girl who my colleague termed "a normal sounding young woman from Dublin - just a typical 20-something" who had no qualms about going out and having unprotected one-night-stands with men who were totally unaware of her HIV positive status on a regular basis.

While I accept that the men in these situations aren't 100% blameless - they're sleeping with these women without using protection either and they should have been more careful about their own health - surely knowingly spreading HIV or AIDS should carry a harsh penalty. I don't for one moment suggest that someone who doesn't know they're infected should be treated in the same manner, but I cannot fathom how someone would knowingly go out to infect someone unsuspecting just because they can. I've been trying to rationalise it somehow, but I'm just coming up blank.

The pop singer in the German case faces 10 years imprisonment if she is found guilty in court of committing serious bodily harm, which is the charge being brought against her iirc. How do you think someone in that situation should be punished?

Silverfish

Whatever the normal punishment for attempted murder is.


i.e probably not long or harsh enough.

barrackali

Silverfish wrote: »

Whatever the normal punishment for attempted murder is.


i.e probably not long or harsh enough.

Would tend to agree.

princess-lala

Its deliberately giving someone else a life sentence!

How she has done this is unimaginable tbh, I know if I were in her shoes Id rather stay away from men indefinitely rather than ever risk harming them!

Why would you even do that to some other human knowing what they are going to go through if they do become infected!

She should be imprisoned and given a nice lengthy sentence! Bitch :mad:

Cheap Thrills!

They can't do her for murder/manslaughter until someone actually dies I think.

I'm not sure about 'attempted murder'

Totally selfish individual she is. She came out with some BS like 'I was told the chances of a woman spreading it to a man are tiny so I thought it was ok' paraphrasing but...something weak like that.

She got 10 years. I think one of the men is HIV+

Blush_01

I actually think it's such a despicably disgusting thing to do to someone - primarily because it's so deliberate. I cannot see any way anyone could justify it.

Leeg17

To be honest I think it's no different from a drug addict holding a needle full of HIv+ blood infront of someone and infecting them with it.

Yes to a degree the men are to blame by not using protection, but come on, one mistake and they have their whole lives irrevocably changed? Yes it mightn't have happened had they been using protection, but it equally wouldn't have happened, had the woman not been sleeping with men, knowing she could pass it on to them.

As for sentences? I think attempted murder (a charge for each man) is fair considering the circumstances. The man who has become infected, and possibly more, have been handed life sentences, through which there is no turning back. More than likely, and I think sadly, she can be free in 10 years or less, while they're condemned for life.

My two cents anyways, feel free to crucify me on it

Fox McCloud

Using the word blame here in relation to the men concerned is totally inappropriate in my opinion. Its the same as women walking home last at night being to blame if they get raped. Blame lies with the perpetrator never the victim. Irresponsable does not equal to blame.

I would compare it to attempted murder AND rape. Would these guys consent to sex know she was HIV positive? Probably not, even with condoms.

amacachi

What about someone who unknowingly passes it on? Have we an equivalent to a reckless endangerment crime in this country?

Xiney

I don't think it's as bad if you don't know.

I mean, everyone who has multiple partners (whether they use protection or not) should get regular sti checks - but if they catch something in the meantime but don't know about it yet to pass it on then it's just a case of "this is why you should have used a condom, moron"




If you DO know, and you have unprotected sex (hell, even protected sex!) without telling... that is basically way down there on the list of moral violations. It's in and around GBH & attempted murder for sure.

Leeg17

Reckless endangerment in this context, from my understandment, is knowing you're infected and being reckless as to whether there was a chance of passing on an infection to a person. I would think that it would only be applied if the person knew they were indeed infected, and not somebody who unfortunately contracted HIV themselves without knowing it.

The person knew they were infected, knew they were risking the lives of others and ultimately knew what they were doing, far more than reckless endangerment if you ask me. If she didn't know she was infected, than afaik, it's nothing more than a tragic situation in the eyes of the law and society, and nothing could be done.

If this woman was going to have sexual intercourse with these men knowing that she was HIV+, the least she could have was a shred of human dignity and use a condom. It wouldn't completely negate the risk, or absolve her from her terrible actions, but it might have at least saved a man (or men) from a death sentence.

All a very tragic avoidable situation if you ask me.

fionav3

Silverfish wrote: »

Whatever the normal punishment for attempted murder is.


i.e probably not long or harsh enough.

+ 1.

What a scummy thing to do! Some people really are just heartless and evil. That is murder.

metrovelvet

Silverfish wrote: »

Whatever the normal punishment for attempted murder is.


i.e probably not long or harsh enough.

Except you don't die from HIV anymore.

LittleBook

metrovelvet wrote: »

Except you don't die from HIV anymore.

Depends on where you live and how much money you have.

metrovelvet

LittleBook wrote: »

Depends on where you live and how much money you have.

In the west you dont. Ok you are on a cocktail of drugs for the rest of your life but it's not a death sentence like it used to me. And the OP was in Germany right? So great healthcare. No money needed.

princess-lala

metrovelvet wrote: »

In the west you dont. Ok you are on a cocktail of drugs for the rest of your life but it's not a death sentence like it used to me. And the OP was in Germany right? So great healthcare. No money needed.

But maybe the men infected here might not live in Germany!

LittleBook

metrovelvet wrote: »

In the west you dont. Ok you are on a cocktail of drugs for the rest of your life but it's not a death sentence like it used to me. And the OP was in Germany right? So great healthcare. No money needed.

I think the discussion is broader than that one person in Germany and I don't believe all countries in the west/northern hemispheres have great healthcare. People are still dying of HIV related illnesses.

It's true that it's not the same situation as before when it was 100% fatal but I doubt anyone who has unprotected sex knowing they are HIV positive and deliberately keeping that information from their partner is thinking to themselves "well they might not die from it".

metrovelvet

LittleBook wrote: »

I think the discussion is broader than that one person in Germany and I don't believe all countries in the west/northern hemispheres have great healthcare. People are still dying of HIV related illnesses.

It's true that it's not the same situation as before when it was 100% fatal but I doubt anyone who has unprotected sex knowing they are HIV positive and deliberately keeping that information from their partner is thinking to themselves "well they might not die from it".

Im not saying it shouldnt be criminalised- Ijust dont think attempted murder is apt.

Dave147

She should rot in prison and all the drugs that help her live should not be supplied anymore.

LittleBook

metrovelvet wrote: »

Im not saying it shouldnt be criminalised- Ijust dont think attempted murder is apt.

I absolutely do. From selfish popstars who should know better and deliberately transmit the virus ... to ignorant peasants who believe sex with a virgin will cure their HIV.

desertstorm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Except you don't die from HIV anymore.

You also have good chances of not dying from getting shot...

HIV -> Medical treatment to stay alive

Getting Shot -> Medical treatment to stay alive

Hope she gets what she deserves

anothernight

metrovelvet wrote: »

Except you don't die from HIV anymore.

There's no guarantee that the particular strain of the virus won't become resistant to the drugs. The life expectancy of a HIV+ person is still lower than that of someone who isn't infected, regardless of the availability of antiretroviral medication.

For that reason I also think it should be punishable as attempted murder.

fergpie

10 years is about right. Id consider it causing serious bodily harm. Theres no way attempted murder could be proven in any court in any country.

We have to remember that condoms do break, using protection doesn't mean you're totally safe. It's up to the person to tell their partners and let them decide for themselves whether they're comfortable with the risk. As for the punishment, I'd say whatever attempted murder is.

Maguined

Not to mention that even if she infected one man, this man could unknowingly infect many others so its not just directly affecting the lives of the individuals she infected, but she is directly responsible for anyone that gets infected by her ex-partners which could potentially add up to shattering very many lives.

It's a disgusting selfish act that deserves to be severely punished.

Xiney

In this particular case as well, since she's a popstar and presumeably has a lot of money, she should be made to repay the state for all the extra medical costs that she has created.

frankied1

Fox McCloud wrote: »

Using the word blame here in relation to the men concerned is totally inappropriate in my opinion. Its the same as women walking home last at night being to blame if they get raped. Blame lies with the perpetrator never the victim. Irresponsable does not equal to blame.

I would compare it to attempted murder AND rape. Would these guys consent to sex know she was HIV positive? Probably not, even with condoms.

I agree with Fox to an extent, it is attempted murder and is disgusting as both murder and rape, and whilst ppl shouldnt be blamed for contracting the disease you have to question how many ppl these ppl may have gone out and unknowingly infected due to their recklessness.

Its a vicious circle so there has to be some level of accountability!

Chinafoot

What really disturbed me in this case were the HIV awareness groups who came out and said that this woman being arrested and held for 10 days was "disproportionate." She has given someone a life sentence here and they're getting pissy about 10 days?!

metrovelvet wrote:

In the west you dont. Ok you are on a cocktail of drugs for the rest of your life but it's not a death sentence like it used to me. And the OP was in Germany right? So great healthcare. No money needed.

Ah well thats ok then. Sure lets all move to Germany and throw away the condoms since their healthcare is so fantastic and HIV is no biggie.

I find that utterly offensive tbh. I'd say a lot more but I'd rather not get banned for *your* ridiculous comments.

iguana

anothernight wrote: »

There's no guarantee that the particular strain of the virus won't become resistant to the drugs. The life expectancy of a HIV+ person is still lower than that of someone who isn't infected, regardless of the availability of antiretroviral medication.

For that reason I also think it should be punishable as attempted murder.

Plus that it isn't as if you just have to take some drugs and then carry on as normal. The drugs have a horrific array of side-effects and often become less effective the more they are used.

An infected person also has their fertility severely damaged as they run the deep risk of infecting their partner or any conceived child. Just that in itself is something that goes very far beyond GBH.

Fizgig Bandicoot

They should be put in a Thai prison for life. (I know that there is a lot that can be done for H.I.V. sufferers nowadays, but deliberately infecting somebody with a potentially life threatening disease is horrific.)

entropi

In my eyes, I view it as attempted murder...mostly if caught early the disease can be staved off for longer but will still be detrimental to life and if it becomes positive in any of the victims, then the charge should be upgraded to murder as technically she killed them.

The only punishment suitable would be long term imprisonment, any other forms I could think of posting...I would be slated here so will hold back.

Panthro

well Im going back to the oul system and say "ball and chain, and heres a shovel" and be told to go construct a highway, and don't stop till its finished.
God forbid, if she ever did that to anyone I knew, sitting on her hole in jail for X amount of years would not be the punishment I'd want to see served out.
She should be made work for the medical costs incurred by her victims for rest of her days.
(a lot of people rejoice because I am not in power!)

seenitall

Hah. No biggie U]severe sarcasm![/U - at least she was "just" playing Russian roulette with other people's lives. Heard about the case some months ago, where a HIV+ husband in New Zealand pricked his sleeping wife with his blood infected needle in the middle of the night, so he would transmit her HIV and they would be on an even keel, and she would start having sex with him again (which she had been refusing to do, shockingly enough). Two young kids involved too. He succeeded in giving her the virus, but he failed to arouse the flames of her passion, I think...:rolleyes: :mad:

I would have him tried for murder, absolutely. For the women mentioned in the thread, I'd go with attempted murder for the times where they failed to transmit, and murder for the ones where they succeeded (although intent is much hazier here, isn't it closer to reckless endangerment than the guy's case?).

Novella

I think knowing that you are HIV positive and having unprotected sex (or even protected sex) with someone without telling them is really low, and yes, it is a terrible thing to do. However, at the same time, in this day and age, we're all aware of STI's, we have been educated about HIV and AIDS, we know the risk and afaik, she didn't force these men to sleep with her, they could have worn a condom, no?

Having unprotected sex is a dangerous thing to do, imo. You are responsible for your own body really, so take the necessary precautions.

Chinafoot

Novella wrote: »

I think knowing that you are HIV positive and having unprotected sex (or even protected sex) with someone without telling them is really low, and yes, it is a terrible thing to do. However, at the same time, in this day and age, we're all aware of STI's, we have been educated about HIV and AIDS, we know the risk and afaik, she didn't force these men to sleep with her, they could have worn a condom, no?

Having unprotected sex is a dangerous thing to do, imo. You are responsible for your own body really, so take the necessary precautions.

Of course, but equally these men should have been given the option to *not* have sex with this woman at all. She should have disclosed her HIV status and let them make an informed decision. The same goes for any STI.

For all we know this woman could have told them she was completely clean, got STI checked regularly and was on the pill. I do agree that condoms should still be used each and every time, but she deceived them. The responsibility lies with her and she should be punished accordingly.

The_Minister

Just for interest, there have been previous threads on this in AH.
Man gets 45 years in prison for spreading HIV and Deliberately spreading AIDs - Murder?.

The second's OP contains a links to attitudes in three different jurisdictions, and the different approaches taken.

The_Minister

Oh, and in Ireland I would imagine they would be charged with grievous bodily harm as opposed to attempted murder.

anothernight

Novella wrote: »

I think knowing that you are HIV positive and having unprotected sex (or even protected sex) with someone without telling them is really low, and yes, it is a terrible thing to do. However, at the same time, in this day and age, we're all aware of STI's, we have been educated about HIV and AIDS, we know the risk and afaik, she didn't force these men to sleep with her, they could have worn a condom, no?

Having unprotected sex is a dangerous thing to do, imo. You are responsible for your own body really, so take the necessary precautions.

I don't know the specifics in the particular cases mentioned in this thread, but iirc in past cases around the world, sometimes it was found that the HIV+ person actively encouraged their partner to not wear a condom. Though of course this is by no means the norm.

And yeah, everyone's got responsibility over their own bodies and health and should always try to protect themselves by using condoms.

Panthro

just heard on the BBC3 news there that the German woman in question avoided a prison sentence and got a 2 year suspended sentence.
madness.

Bottle_of_Smoke

It just isn't attempted murder/murder. Arguably just as morally wrong but legally could never hold up that way.

I think it warrants a life sentence all the same. I mean not everyone has access to retrovirals and/or adequate healthcare so this argument that it is no longer a death sentence is moot. A charge of grievious bodily harm and a 5 year sentence isn't sufficient.

Think this girl's sentencing really sets a bad precedent. I don't buy her remorse anyone could say that to get a light sentence

seenitall

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Think this girl's sentencing really sets a bad precedent.

Unfortunately, I agree. It is a moronically light sentence for such a crime, regardless of what we choose to call it, and innocent people will pay for it in the future. :mad:

This is beside the point, but I saw a photo of her in the papar the other day (before the sentencing), she was beaming from ear to ear, the picture of carelessness and happiness. No conscience whatsoever.

baby and crumble

I remember that I was doing some reading for my Masters a couple of years ago and there's a sizeable proportion of the gay community that actively seek out HIV+ men to have sex with so they can catch the virus on their own terms... There's a sense of inevitability about it, which is a bit disturbing.

Fremen

It's actually quite hard to contract HIV through penile-vaginal sex. It the west it runs at something like one infection per thousand exposures for women, and half that for men. In Africa, it's a good deal higher due to poorer health in the general population (link).

It's worth remembering that anytime you sleep with someone you don't completely trust, and don't use protection, you're at risk of picking up an STD. The prevalence of chlamydia in the general population is fairly shocking- typically over 2%, depending on country.

As novella said, it's your own responsability to make sure you're protected. Assuming you'll be ok is a recipe for disaster.

Tragedy

Fremen wrote: »

As novella said, it's your own responsability to make sure you're protected. Assuming you'll be ok is a recipe for disaster.

As has been said before in this thread, that could be applied to drunk people getting raped/mugged/murdered, or going out late at night.