Irish Times article: Time to clamp down on the lawless world of cyclists

seensensee

CheGuedara wrote: »

(see the safe cycling bit in the cycling wiki about these) - your life it much more likely to be incident free.

Not cycling on footpaths where you risk injuring a pedestrian (along with yourself) or being injured by a car pulling out/in of a driveway or jumping the lights will also both go a long way in maintaining your health

Thanks for the link, the following is a selected quote which has also been a reoccurring thought of mine for a long time, those big wide deserted paths totally devoid of pedestrians get me reacting big time.

"Situational Awareness
This is very important. Assume the worst action of any other vehicle and be ready to react accordingly"


I once ploughed into a pedestrian and knocked him out, he stepped out in front of me, pished as a fart on the road. I required a visit to the dentist. Naaasty.

doozerie

I agree with Lumen above. I find posting that picture offensive because it was a real incident where at least one person died. If you want to express a view the cycling is dangerous then there are far less objectionable ways of doing so.

The victim mentality is not a healthy one though and can ultimately be self-fulfilling if you face every encounter with other road users with fear.

seensensee

I was cut off at a roundabout last week, the fecker cut it soooo fine at speed, it endorses one's belief in being off road... it's like "let them (drivers) keep their stinking road" I'll use the deserted pedestrian free footpath instead, and you know the journey is so much more enjoyable and stress free.

Make no mistake, pedestrians have the right of way and one must slow down to less than walking speed, hands on brakes ,which if you think about it is less of an obstruction than walking with your bike on the pavement, I cannot see the perceived danger.

doozerie

seensensee wrote: »

I was cut off at a roundabout last week, the fecker cut it soooo fine at speed, it endorses one's belief in being off road... it's like "let them (drivers) keep their stinking road" I'll use the deserted pedestrian free footpath instead, and you know the journey is so much more enjoyable and stress free.

Make no mistake, pedestrians have the right of way and one must slow down to less than walking speed, hands on brakes ,which if you think about it is less of an obstruction than walking with your bike on the pavement, I cannot see the perceived danger.

Firstly, it's not their stinking road, it's our stinking road. Cyclists are traffic too.

As to you not seeing the perceived danger of cycling on the footpath, I would imagine that the driver that cut you off at the roundabout didn't see the danger that you obviously perceived in that situation - does that mindset of his make his actions more dangerous or less dangerous do you think?

seensensee

doozerie wrote: »

I agree with Lumen above. I find posting that picture offensive because it was a real incident where at least one person died. If you want to express a view the cycling is dangerous then there are far less objectionable ways of doing so.

The victim mentality is not a healthy one though and can ultimately be self-fulfilling if you face every encounter with other road users with fear.

It's just that the one time I ever hit a pedestrian back in the eighties it happened on the road. I have not hit a pedestrian on the path yet.

Where is the offense in illustrating the pain involved in a collision between a car and a human body? yes somebody died and that image drives the message home very well, if you were hit or crushed indeed you would experience a shocking offense.

Look, I use the road 90% of the time and there is no problem with it, it's just on occasion the path looks like a sensible choice when no one is around, one must be prepared to stop and get back on the road that's all.

dolliemix

I was in Japan during the summer and pedestrians and cyclists share the path! Its crazy and really unnerving as a cyclist.

Like seenseesee, I use the road most of the time, but there is a road on my commute that has a pot hole or a drain every 20 metres, so you need to either stay out really far on the road or keep moving in and out. The cars go pretty fast so I don't like staying out too far, but I don't like moving in and out either because the cars aren't aware that there are potholes, so they won't be anticipating my moving in and out. I'm convinced somethings going to happen to me at some stage.

One night I used the path and it was a much nicer experience. Now, I always use it. If I see a pedestrian, obviously I get out of the way or I stop. Its a wide path, so there is room for a cyclist and pedestrian so most of the time I don't have to stop.

Lumen

seensensee wrote: »

Where is the offense in illustrating the pain involved in a collision between a car and a human body? yes somebody died and that image drives the message home very well, if you were hit or crushed indeed you would experience a shocking offense.

You posted a picture of somebody being killed. If you don't see anything wrong with that you need your head examined.

seensensee

Lumen wrote: »

You posted a picture of somebody being killed. If you don't see anything wrong with that you need your head examined.

I posted an image of a car driven by a drunk driver which crashed into cyclists, the victim cannot be distinguished.

Why do some cyclists use the footpath despite it being unlawful? I've provided a reason e.g. because cyclists fear the consequences of being hit by a fast moving vehicle.

Research has shown that over the period, 1998 to 2008:

• 144 cyclists were killed on Irish roads.
• Of these, 33% were involved in a collision with a goods vehicle.
• 30% of the collisions occurred during evening rush hour.
• The highest number of fatalities occurred in Dublin accounting for 30% of those killed

http://www.rsa.ie/Utility/News/2010/Online-Road-Safety-Video-Teaches-Cyclists--Heavy-Goods-Vehicle-Drivers-How-To-Share-The-Road-Safely/

Actually the situation is a lot worse than I thought.

Edit: How many serious injuries?

seensensee

Lumen, were you privy to the discussions on forums concerning the Dublin 30km speed limits, I myself argued that it was a good thing but was abusively overwhelmed by posters who showed no consideration for road hazards (cyclists) from a drivers POV, some drivers are oblivious to the care required on busy roads. I don't trust the motor traffic it's that simple, and as dolliemix and I have tried to explain there are circumstances when being on the road feels somewhat unsafe.

CheGuedara

seensensee wrote: »

Lumen, were you privy to the discussions on forums concerning the Dublin 30km speed limits, I myself argued that it was a good thing but was abusively overwhelmed by posters who showed no consideration for road hazards (cyclists) from a drivers POV, some drivers are oblivious to the care required on busy roads. I don't trust the motor traffic it's that simple, and as dolliemix and I have tried to explain there are circumstances when being on the road feels somewhat unsafe.

Cyclists are not road 'hazards' they are road users, road traffic like motor vehicles are.

doozerie

seensensee wrote:

Where is the offense in illustrating the pain involved in a collision between a car and a human body? yes somebody died and that image drives the message home very well, if you were hit or crushed indeed you would experience a shocking offense.

Exactly what point are you trying to make? People die all the time. Many people die from falling off, or out of, tall buildings apparently so should we all restrict ourselves to the ground floor of any building? Stairs are scary too if all you think about while using them is what'll happen if you fall. And scissors should be avoided like the plague - with their reputation for inducing people to run while holding them they are practically serial killers.

As to the offence in posting a picture of someone's death as a lazy and tasteless means of trying to make a point, for one thing it is disrespectful to the person killed and to those they left behind. Even the worst of the sensationalist tabloid rags usually know better than to sink that low.

Also, if the roads are so scary then you do have the option of walking. Mind you, that can get scary too if you find yourself sharing the footpath with cyclists.

Blowfish

seensensee wrote: »

I posted an image of a car driven by a drunk driver which crashed into cyclists, the victim cannot be distinguished.

Why do some cyclists use the footpath despite it being unlawful? I've provided a reason e.g. because cyclists fear the consequences of being hit by a fast moving vehicle.

Research has shown that over the period, 1998 to 2008:

• 144 cyclists were killed on Irish roads.
• Of these, 33% were involved in a collision with a goods vehicle.
• 30% of the collisions occurred during evening rush hour.
• The highest number of fatalities occurred in Dublin accounting for 30% of those killed

http://www.rsa.ie/Utility/News/2010/Online-Road-Safety-Video-Teaches-Cyclists--Heavy-Goods-Vehicle-Drivers-How-To-Share-The-Road-Safely/

Actually the situation is a lot worse than I thought.

Edit: How many serious injuries?

And from here, in the period from 1991 to 2001, 1150 pedestrians were killed. What makes you think the footpath is all that much safer? You still have to cross roads and junctions which is where most accidents happen.

seensensee

CheGuedara wrote: »

Cyclists are not road 'hazards' they are road users, road traffic like motor vehicles are.

I'm also a well seasoned driver who knows that anything on the road is a potential hazard, it's classified as such to give it the relevance it deserves...

What Hazards Are We Looking For?
Look for events occurring in front of the car such as:-

[*] School crossing and bus waiting with children crossing road
[*] Breakdown vehicle on bend
[*]Vans parked with hazard warning lights on
[*]cyclist on country road
[*] Vehicle doing U turn on brow of hill
[*] Furniture vans parked on bend (door open) with oncoming traffic
[*] Green traffic light turns on approach
[*] Parked vehicles/road works

http://www.2pass.co.uk/hazard.htm

seensensee

doozerie wrote: »

Exactly what point are you trying to make? People die all the time. Many people die from falling off, or out of, tall buildings apparently so should we all restrict ourselves to the ground floor of any building? Stairs are scary too if all you think about while using them is what'll happen if you fall. And scissors should be avoided like the plague - with their reputation for inducing people to run while holding them they are practically serial killers.

As to the offence in posting a picture of someone's death as a lazy and tasteless means of trying to make a point, for one thing it is disrespectful to the person killed and to those they left behind. Even the worst of the sensationalist tabloid rags usually know better than to sink that low.

Also, if the roads are so scary then you do have the option of walking. Mind you, that can get scary too if you find yourself sharing the footpath with cyclists.

I enjoy driving from time to time but I much prefer to use the bike and normally the roads are ok for me, nothing better than putting the bike in the van, driving into the city, parking up, then throwing a bag over my shoulder and going for a tour around to do some shopping and taking in the sights. why not get the best of both, eh? motor and bike, road and footpath.
Golden rule for all is do it safely so no one gets hurt.

It's not disrespectful to the dead cyclist, he's being remembered in the name of road safety, and i have repeatedly said that I use the path on occasion because it makes me feel safe, I cycle slowly with care and the pedestrian feels safe, it really is win win.

English Bob

If you're that afraid of cycling on the roads (where you should be) then keep your bike in the shed and the shock tactic pictures to yourself.

DirkVoodoo

seensensee wrote: »

It's not disrespectful to the dead cyclist, he's being remembered in the name of road safety,

Is that what this is? I've seen people cycle on footpaths, some are pretty good and yield to pedestrians and go at a slow pace (a walking pace, which begs the question). The other ones are a danger to themselves and others.

I've had plenty of near misses and seen plenty of bad drivers (tonight an ageing 3 series saloon driven by some knob went sideways as he hit the gas turning onto a major road, I was worried for a minute) but nothing would make me think that cycling off the road is safer. Most problems I've had have been on cycle paths, cycling on the road is just fine.

CheGuedara

seensensee wrote: »

I'm also a well seasoned driver who knows that anything on the road is a potential hazard, it's classified as such to give it the relevance it deserves...

What Hazards Are We Looking For?
Look for events occurring in front of the car such as:-

• 
  
• School crossing and bus waiting with children crossing road
• Breakdown vehicle on bend
• Vans parked with hazard warning lights on
• cyclist on country road
• Vehicle doing U turn on brow of hill
• Furniture vans parked on bend (door open) with oncoming traffic
• Green traffic light turns on approach
• Parked vehicles/road works

http://www.2pass.co.uk/hazard.htm

So you don't regard cyclists as equal members of traffic, just hazards for motorists by definition.

Someone get this one a St Judes medal...

dolliemix

English Bob wrote: »

If you're that afraid of cycling on the roads (where you should be) then keep your bike in the shed .

lol! This is why I generally don't get involved in discussions like this on boards.

Its not black or white. Neither Seensensee or I are afraid of the roads. THere are particular parts that we would prefer not to cycle on as a result of certain circumstances that make it difficult. I am not making anything awkward for anybody, nor is Seenseeme as I can tell, because we choose areas where the footpath is wider. We dismount if it is awkward for a pedestrian.

I really find it hard to believe, that people who cycle regularly cannot empathise with us on that point. We've both said that for the majority of the cycle, we cycle on the road!

Have you never felt unsafe on the roads at any point? Wow! If this is the case...where do you cycle?

English Bob

dolliemix wrote: »

lol! This is why I generally don't get involved in discussions like this on boards.

You really really should!!!!

You'd be much safer sticking to the turbo trainer!

Beasty

OK - calm down everyone

@seensensee - do not post pictures of lethal accidents again

@everyone - don't get personal, or we'll have to dish out some infractions

Thanks

Beasty

seensensee

Beasty wrote: »

OK - calm down everyone

@seensensee - do not post pictures of lethal accidents again

@everyone - don't get personal, or we'll have to dish out some infractions

Thanks

Beasty

Better still I shall delete the image altogether if It makes everyone feel better.

Beasty

seensensee wrote: »

Better still I shall delete the image altogether if It makes everyone feel better.

I've already deleted it, and the copy quoted by another poster

Thanks

Beasty

English Bob

They sound like fighting words ssseeennnsennnsssee!!!
Race ya to the traffic lights & back!
But u better watch out for the speed bumps!!!!

seensensee

English Bob wrote: »

They sound like fighting words ssseeennnsennnsssee!!!
Race ya to the traffic lights & back!
But u better watch out for the speed bumps!!!!

No need for racing bob, why I've just been out cycling through town, hopped up on the pavement to avoid a red light and freewheeled down to the bridge then 5 tourists came around the corner, I stopped and leaned against the railings, they passed by with loads of space to spare, yet again I'll reiterate that I don't see the perceived danger to pedestrians.
Of course I would'nt do that during the day when there are cars on the road but at this time of night, the place is empty like a ghost town.

CramCycle

This really heated up while I was away.

dolliemix wrote: »

The cars go pretty fast so I don't like staying out too far, but I don't like moving in and out either because the cars aren't aware that there are potholes, so they won't be anticipating my moving in and out. I'm convinced somethings going to happen to me at some stage.

I'm not trying to be a sm*rt*rs* here but indicating might save you alot of hassle.

doozerie wrote: »

Even the worst of the sensationalist tabloid rags usually know better than to sink that low.

Slightly off topic but i feel i should say it: The red tops do not feel anything about sinking that low, I'll give many examples if needs be.

seensensee wrote: »

No need for racing bob, why I've just been out cycling through town, hopped up on the pavement to avoid a red light and freewheeled down to the bridge then 5 tourists came around the corner, I stopped and leaned against the railings, they passed by with loads of space to spare, yet again I'll reiterate that I don't see the perceived danger to pedestrians.
Of course I would'nt do that during the day when there are cars on the road but at this time of night, the place is empty like a ghost town.

Surely by your previous argument, earlier in the day is when you suggest doing it due to all the cars on the road. Regardless, what happens if you got to the corner and one of those 5 tourist stepped around it and straight into you. All you need to do is knock them off balance for them to fall, crack their head and die from it.

Hermy

dolliemix wrote: »

Have you never felt unsafe on the roads at any point? Wow! If this is the case...where do you cycle?

On a cyclepath if one is provided. Otherwise get off the bike and walk on the footpath. You don't have the option of cycling on the footpath.

dolliemix

Hermy wrote: »

On a cyclepath if one is provided. Otherwise get off the bike and walk on the footpath. You don't have the option of cycling on the footpath.

lol! But I'll take up more space on the footpath walking. Me and the bike.

Fair enough. Obviously I understand what everybody is saying.

But it actually works when I do this. I have not come across a pedestrian who got annoyed with me for cycling on the path. Its VERY obvious how messed up this stretch of road is with potholes, drains and when its been raining even the people on the footpaths get splashed.

I actually can't how unsupportive certain cyclists are to others on these forums. Its just, 'I know best', without really listening to what the poster is saying.

Yes, I could walk. But it would add ten minutes on to my commute. I'm not hurting anybody.

Some of the posts on here are bordering on aggresive

'you'd be much better sticking to the turbo trainer'/ 'Leave your bike in the shed ' _ English BOb

Whats that supposed to mean?

Its a personal thing, that I feel fear, at a certain point of my commute. The other option is for me to take my car to work daily. So you reckon that would be a better idea? Like I said, I'm not hurting anybody. Its a 200 metre stretch out of an 8 mile commute. Yet, you feel I shouldn't use my bike at all.

To be honest, telling me to not use my bike, is completely overreacting!!

I could also indicate, as suggested by another poster. And I have, of course, done that in the past. A lot of drivers don't necessarily see cyclists. There is a lot of going in and out. Every 20 metres or so...so its a lot of hand signalling. You're pretty unsteady on this part of the road anyway because there is so much damage on it, and the hand signalling adds to the feeling of not being completely in control. Thats why I'm fearful!!

I guess I could stay out and hold up the traffic. But I'm always aware when I do that, that some idiot will be doing all they can to pass me out (including cyclists). Yesterday, I was cycling into town and a cyclist passed me out on the inside!!! I didn' him coming and he nearly went straight into me, when I moved closer to the path.

All your suggestions are great guys (apart from English Bob who reckons I shouldn't be cycling all lol!) but I'm going to take my chances and do what instinctively feels right for me!!

ceannair06

eightyfish wrote: »

Yes. A friend of mine was in hospital for 5 days after some kunt on a mobile pulled out in front of him. Another friend of mine was on crutches for a month after some other kunt opened a car door in front of him and he was catapulted over the door.



Generalise much?

Yes, and why not ?

I walk down the Quays to Heuston each night and have to pass many a side road. I'm sick to death of the DAILY occurrence of a cyclist hurtling towards me when I have right of way and they are meant to stop at the red light.

You do realise red means stop don't you ? <snip>

eightyfish

ceannair06 wrote: »

I walk down the Quays to Heuston each night and have to pass many a side road. I'm sick to death of the DAILY occurrence of a cyclist hurtling towards me when I have right of way and they are meant to stop at the red light.

And I see motorists illegally endangering cyclists every day, but I don't paint them all with the one angry brush.

Lumen

ceannair06 wrote: »

Yes, and why not ?

I walk down the Quays to Heuston each night and have to pass many a side road. I'm sick to death of the DAILY occurrence of a cyclist hurtling towards me when I have right of way and they are meant to stop at the red light.

You do realise red means stop don't you ? <snip>

You missed this bit:

eightyfish wrote: »

More enforcement all round, pls.

You're generalising behaviour by mode of transport. This is extremely irritating to cyclists who stop at red lights.

"Them and us" arguments are pointless. Idiots are idiots. More people RLJ on bikes because (a) they can get away with it (b) it is less dangerous than in cars.

To be honest, RLJing by cars in Ireland is now so ubiquitous that it's not really that dangerous any more. Whether driving or cycling, you have to treat a green light as "proceed with caution" (which should be the case anyway, but in countries where lights are enforced with cameras you could spend a lifetime flooring-on-green and never have an accident).

English Bob

I can completely understand the need to occasionally jump on the pavement to get out of harms way but think everyone is over reacting. I personally wouldn't cycle on the pavement but would make as a big a presence as I can so I make other road users respect my space. Accidents happen sometimes even when every precaution is taken. If it scared me to cycle on the roads I'd stop and choose another sport.

CramCycle

dolliemix wrote: »

I actually can't how unsupportive certain cyclists are to others on these forums. Its just, 'I know best', without really listening to what the poster is saying.

I don't think anyone is trying to be unsupportive and I can see why you do it. Several people in my local area do it, some cycle the wrong way on cycle paths. I ignore them for the simple reason that many look frail and where possible I hop on the road to avoid them. If they didn't look frail/fragile, I would shout at them to cop on though.

I think the negativity you are hearing in alot of cases is that firstly boards.ie are fairly strict on the whole not promoting illegal activity of any measure and secondly, it does take away from those of us trying to promote safe and legal cycling as a viable mode of transport.

Yes, I could walk. But it would add ten minutes on to my commute. I'm not hurting anybody.

But you never now, you might/could. I am not saying your not careful but even the best of us make errors in judgement.

'you'd be much better sticking to the turbo trainer'/ 'Leave your bike in the shed ' _ English BOb

Whats that supposed to mean?

It's just sarcasm, nothing to take ofense at, just ignore him/her/other.

I could also indicate, as suggested by another poster. And I have, of course, done that in the past. A lot of drivers don't necessarily see cyclists. There is a lot of going in and out. Every 20 metres or so...so its a lot of hand signalling. You're pretty unsteady on this part of the road anyway because there is so much damage on it, and the hand signalling adds to the feeling of not being completely in control. Thats why I'm fearful!!

That was me, in this instance, I would hold the road. As you said it is only 200 metres.

Yesterday, I was cycling into town and a cyclist passed me out on the inside!!! I didn' him coming and he nearly went straight into me, when I moved closer to the path.

That person is an idiot but this is also a case for promoting more road awareness. In a car/on a bike, you should always do a rear view check when moving lane position, even if it is in the same lane, as people do silly things.

Stupidity example:There is a runner in the Clonskeagh/Ranelagh area (elderly guy with a moustache) who continually runs in the cycle lane and gets offended when its pointed out to him that he is endangering himself. You just can't win.

While we are more fragile than cars, pedestrians are more fragile than us, and it is our duty as road users to have as much due care and consideration as possible.

All your suggestions are great guys (apart from English Bob who reckons I shouldn't be cycling all lol!) but I'm going to take my chances and do what instinctively feels right for me!!

Hopefully road use/manners in this country will improve to the point where you no longer feel this is the only option, until then, I hope nothing bad occurs because of it.

Lumen

English Bob wrote: »

Accidents happen sometimes even when every percussion is taken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TFzI_AgwfQ

edit: ninja edit there bob!

brianthebard

English Bob wrote: »

I can completely understand the need to occasionally jump on the pavement to get out of harms way but think everyone is over reacting. I personally wouldn't cycle on the pavement but would make as a big a presence as I can so I make other road users respect my space. Accidents happen sometimes even when every precaution is taken. If it scared me to cycle on the roads I'd stop and choose another sport.

boom! cycling isn't a sport to everyone who cycles, but this thread has definitely ignored that fact to a large degree. The majority of people I see cycling on the footpath in Galway are more than middled aged men and younger women. They clearly don't feel comfortable on the road the whole time but the cycle paths are woefully inadequate and non existent in most areas. Usually when you see people on the footpath it seems to be a particularly dodgy stretch of road, and this as well is telling.

seensensee

doozerie wrote: »

As to the offence in posting a picture of someone's death as a lazy and tasteless means of trying to make a point, for one thing it is disrespectful to the person killed and to those they left behind. Even the worst of the sensationalist tabloid rags usually know better than to sink that low.

I find censorship to be an offence, and I find your misinformation here to be an offence of the factual truth, even in today's broadsheets there are two images which capitalise on the death and possible death (intensive care) of people, then of course there was 911, the asian tsunami, operation cast lead, ect ect.
So just to remind you of the facts.... Every day across the media victims of tragedy are mentioned, used and shown to highlight various causes and become part of the news.
Remember ayrton senna?

Chips Lovell

Mod note: Right, myself and Beasty have had to intervene several times on this thread to keep the peace. If yellow and red cards are being ignored, we will resort to bannings.

In short, don't make me come down there.

CramCycle

el tonto wrote: »

If yellow and red cards are being ignored, we will resort to bannings.

In short, don't make me come down there.

Have I got one? I'm such a good boy most of the time

4.5 words

butter mouth melt wouldn't

seensensee

This is the last post that I will make on the cycling forums for fear of being banned.

Lumen

seensensee wrote: »

This is the last post that I will make on the cycling forums for fear of being banned.

That might be an overreaction. When you come to a section of thread which feels particularly dangerous, just get off and walk.

doozerie

seensensee wrote:

I find censorship to be an offence, and I find your misinformation here to be an offence of the factual truth, even in today's broadsheets there are two images which capitalise on the death and possible death (intensive care) of people, then of course there was 911, the asian tsunami, operation cast lead, ect ect.
So just to remind you of the facts.... Every day across the media victims of tragedy are mentioned, used and shown to highlight various causes and become part of the news.
Remember ayrton senna?

Censorship? Interesting perspective there. Your posting of the picture was tasteless, you used it to try to (badly) further your argument that the roads are unsafe. The incident in the photo was neither appropriate nor relevant. Those media that do show such pictures as least can argue (though sometimes without justification for the worst of them) that they are reporting on an event rather than seeking to simply shock.

Chips Lovell

seensensee wrote: »

This is the last post that I will make on the cycling forums for fear of being banned.

If you can't stay within the forum rules then, yes, it's best not to post at all.

cdaly_

CramCycle wrote: »

dolliemix wrote: »

I guess I could stay out and hold up the traffic. But I'm always aware when I do that, that some idiot will be doing all they can to pass me out (including cyclists).

That was me, in this instance, I would hold the road. As you said it is only 200 metres.

+1 on this. This is pretty much the safest option. If you're over to the side trying to dodge potholes the cars will just keep on passing you. If you're out in the lane where the surface is decent the cars have to wait until they can safely overtake and, in the event that an impatient driver does attempt to cut you up, you have a safety margin where you can dive out of the way.

I do this sort of thing all the time. Particular instances are when taking off from the Griffith Ave / Drumcondra Rd junction. There are always cars parked and traffic waiting for their light in the other direction so space is a little tight. Strictly speaking I and a car could travel side-by-side in the space that is left but I have no bail-out space if a car door opens or I hit an obstruction. For that (100m) stretch of road I hold the centre of the lane. In about 18 months of doing it that way I've had one driver beep at me and one or two appear impatient. Everyone else waits for the short time it takes until I can move over a bit or they can cross the line to overtake.

Similarly at Fairview / Howth Rd junction I'm going straight on and I take the centre of the left lane because so much traffic is turning left.

I find that if I appear confident / competent and signal properly I almost always get the space on the road I need. I'm pretty sure that this is helped by running flashing lights front and rear at all times (day or night) which help me be seen.

CramCycle

el tonto wrote: »

If you can't stay within the forum rules then, yes, it's best not to post at all.

There are rules?

niceonetom

el tonto wrote: »

If you can't stay within the forum road rules then, yes, it's best not to post ride at all.

.

Captain Havoc

CramCycle wrote: »

There are rules?

Yes there are, we make them up as we go along.

Bluefoam

Why not cobble together all the 'rules' you can think of, put it into a text format that can be stuck/sticked/stickied to the top of the main forum page. You can insist that everyone using the forum should read these 'rules' before posting...

Its a great idea but TBH I'll never read it...

Lumen

Bluefoam wrote: »

Why not cobble together all the 'rules' you can think of, put it into a text format that can be stuck/sticked/stickied to the top of the main forum page. You can insist that everyone using the forum should read these 'rules' before posting...

Its a great idea but TBH I'll never read it...

There are some exceptions, like the arcane rules around spoilers and stage races which even I don't understand before my early morning coke-snort, but for the most part the Forum Charter is like the Irish statute book - you shouldn't have to read it because for the most part, just using common sense and acting like a reasonable person will keep you inside the "law".

Zab

So, I'm probably a rogue cyclist by the definitions in this thread. This post isn't based on what's legal and what isn't, it's my opinion on what's safe and what isn't, and I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

I never blow through a red light, although I won't usually come to a complete stop in the following circumstances (although I will have considerably slowed down):

• Left on red assuming that the road I'm turning onto is wide enough (it usually is)
• Pedestrian crossings with no pedestrians crossing. I believe pedestrians absolutely have right of way here and shouldn't even have to slow down let alone change direction. I've screwed this one up before, but not in a dangerous fashion.
• Where there is no left turn and the light is allowing traffic feed in from the right

I will flat out break lights if there's no moving traffic and I'm about to turn right on some road layouts. For me this is one of the more awkward manoeuvres to make in moving traffic as I don't trust cars to give me right of way and in some situations turning with cars is pretty hairy.

I'm very aware of pedestrians during all of this. I follow almost all other lights, much more so than most cyclists. I should mention that almost all of this is pretty much in central enough areas where traffic is never flying along and speed limits are low.

I do not cycle on the footpath 99% of the time, but do sometimes just before I'm turning into a house. Even in these brief moments I've managed to almost hit somebody walking out of a driveway (although I was cycling on the close side of the footpath to them, which was unnecessary).

I often hear (or read) people saying that if cyclists want to use the roads then they should follow the same rules as cars. I don't agree with this. Bikes are not cars. They don't go as fast, they aren't as heavy, they aren't as big, they aren't as dangerous and they don't require a licence or insurance. Also, cars clearly don't want to give bikes an entire lane or even half a lane as should be their due if they were equal. While happy to pass a bike when they're cycling in 50cm on the side of the road, some people then get upset when a cyclist does something they aren't allowed do.

I have seen cyclists make many more ridiculous and dangerous moves than I've seen motorists make. I think that that the average driver is much more conscientious and safe than the average cyclist. I have also seen more aggression from cyclists than drivers. I don't know what causes this, I only really get angry with drivers when they needlessly endanger me, but I've seen other cyclists shout at drivers when either the cyclist was in the wrong or when they just should have let a slight inconvenience pass (as another motorist would have). This isn't to let drivers totally off the hook, I've seen pretty ridiculous stuff there too, but their greater numbers make the percentages much lower. However, the reality of a car makes their errors in judgement much more dangerous.

re: "expect the unexpected", this is of course true but it should be noted that it's used by car safety authorities to try to get people to slow down. Generally bikes are going too slow for this to be applicable, and certainly in the situations I've described above I would be going even slower.

I'm guessing all this has been said before, but I couldn't find the thread.

ceannair06

You know what a lot a people defending their illegal behaviour here fail to realise ?

Yes, a car MAY in most circumstances be more dangerous than a bike but at least you've got a chance of identifying the car driver and ensuring he pays the appropriate penalty.

Cyclists will just speed off and won't ever be caught.

One thing that annoys me is people saying how it's okay to jump a red light if they can't see cars coming and THEY are safe. Do you not care about pedestrians crossing the road who can only do so when your line of traffic stops ?

CramCycle

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Yes there are, we make them up as we go along.

The legacy of the cycling forum mods lives on

Lumen wrote: »

just using common sense and acting like a reasonable person will keep you inside the "law".

I find it hard enough to act like something resembling a human being most of the time let alone a reasonable one

ceannair06 wrote: »

Cyclists will just speed off and won't ever be caught.

One thing that annoys me is people saying how it's okay to jump a red light if they can't see cars coming and THEY are safe. Do you not care about pedestrians crossing the road who can only do so when your line of traffic stops ?

I presume those who said they are RLJs would not condone mowing down pedestrians. TBH if a person speeds off after knocking someone down when they are on a bike, they are unlikely to be the type of person who'll hang around if they knocked someone down in a car unless they know they won't escape. While Gardaí don't invest a huge amount of time hunting down RLJs on bikes or in cars, I guarantee you they will put in every effort to find a cyclist who mows someone down and doesn't stop, I find it hard to believe that any significant(statistically) number would get away.