anybody see the docu "our drug war" on channel 4 or 4od?

Elevator

I thought it was a great 3 parter that made so much sense it's criminal not to cut the sh1t and change the laws worldwide!!

my fave part was in part 2 when some Scottish drugs police guy admits with the aid of the UN's revised estimated drug consumption for the uk that after a £1.5bn spend they are only stopping 1% of the drugs coming into the country each year.

can anyone see a 100% rise of spending in the uk or is it time to deal with this issue rationly yet?

thebigbiffo

they'd need to spend 148.5bn then to get the rest. my god thats like 4.5 anglo irish's every year :eek:

Ya that doc made so much sense. People are stupid though, so I doubt we will ever see proper drug policies enacted in our lifetime. Oh well.

Elevator

thebigbiffo wrote: »

they'd need to spend 148.5bn then to get the rest. my god thats like 4.5 anglo irish's every year :eek:

ya I'd like to see them spin that

I think myself it's great all this real pressure being put on the uk government for once and for all by people who know what they're talking about

when our neighbours sneeze we get the flu so I can see a turn-around on this subject sometime in my 30's

who the fug

thought the third one was the most depressing hour of TV I have ever watched , what the **** is the UK doing in Afganistan, do the idiots in Westminster nor realize that backing somebody because he is your enemy enemy only stores for **** for the future.

Loved the General quote, look if we wipe it out here, we will only move it some where else, the solution is in the Wests demand

Elevator

but they smoke it there too so what about their own demand?

I have a friend from af-gwan-iston and he says lots and lots smokes hash and pop prescription drugs

Elevator

yes and the female drugs prosecutor uncovering the corruption,

they could pull 100 k's of opium and **** out of the air quickly when they want and then each year they parade the burning of only 16 tons of a mixture of some opium, smack, hash and other non illegal substances to reach the target weight for the media spectacle

ColeTrain

Too many people are making a living from 'the war on drugs'. If drugs were made legal in the morning then you would have all these people on the dole, that wouldn't do :rolleyes:

Elevator

ColeTrain wrote: »

Too many people are making a living from 'the war on drugs'. If drugs were made legal in the morning then you would have all these people on the dole, that wouldn't do :rolleyes:

but they'll be the people making a legal and transparent living from it if sense came into play

ColeTrain

Elevator wrote: »

but they'll be the people making a legal and transparent living from it if sense came into play

I agree with you, I'm all for legalising drugs. But like I said, how many people are involved ? Take the likes of judges, solicitors, border patrol, Garda drug squads etc. At the moment they are making a legal living but if the dealers were to disappear it would mean a downturn in their occupations and some would not exist.

StraddleFor6

Just blazed up a fat one and watched the first episode.
Looking forward to the second.

Up de Barrs

I read the book cocaine wars recently, it gives a fairly graphic account of the elaborate supply chain for illegal drugs. The profits made from the drug trade are incredible.

Terry

ColeTrain wrote: »

Too many people are making a living from 'the war on drugs'. If drugs were made legal in the morning then you would have all these people on the dole, that wouldn't do :rolleyes:

I'd disagree with that to a certain extent on the grounds that drug companies are amongst the most profitable industries on the planet.

My medication costs €75 a week. I've a friend who pays €500 a month, and another who pays €1,000 a month.

You could legalise heroin, but don't expect it to be any cheaper than it currently is.
I've no idea why the poppy fields in Afghanistan are not blown to bits.
A conspiracy theorist would say that the recent blight affecting the Poppy crop was done by American design, but I'd just call it nature.

You could legalise other, softer, drugs, but don't think that there won't be a market for under 18's being exploited by your local dealer. You only need to look at the recent ban on mephedrone to see that, legal or illegal, people will still buy it and dealers will always find something to sell to idiots.

You could legalise all drugs, but there will always be people willing to sell a cheaper and more potent product (Poitín) to those willing to buy it.

The only way to stop it is to impose sanctions on the countries producing these drugs, until they tackle the problems there.

ColeTrain

Terry wrote: »

You could legalise other, softer, drugs, but don't think that there won't be a market for under 18's being exploited by your local dealer. You only need to look at the recent ban on mephedrone to see that, legal or illegal, people will still buy it and dealers will always find something to sell to idiots.

You could legalise all drugs, but there will always be people willing to sell a cheaper and more potent product (Poitín) to those willing to buy it.

The only way to stop it is to impose sanctions on the countries producing these drugs, until they tackle the problems there.

Fair points there but I think what you have described would still be a better situation than it is right now.

Drugs have and will be around for a long time, high time we accepted this fact and dealt with it properly by taxing it. The current approach is like shovelling snow while it's still snowing, you arrest one dealer and another one takes over. You said it yourself, there is just too much money involved for it to ever stop.

Terry

ColeTrain wrote: »

Fair points there but I think what you have described would still be a better situation than it is right now.

Drugs have and will be around for a long time, high time we accepted this fact and dealt with it properly by taxing it. The current approach is like shovelling snow while it's still snowing, you arrest one dealer and another one takes over. You said it yourself, there is just too much money involved for it to ever stop.

Fair enough. Let's stop shovelling the snow and let them all OD. We could do with less junkies mugging people, something they would continue to do even if heroin was legal.

Also, nice pun.

ColeTrain

Terry wrote: »

Fair enough. Let's stop shovelling the snow and let them all OD. We could do with less junkies mugging people, something they would continue to do even if heroin was legal.

Also, nice pun.

Thanks man, didn't notice that, I usually have to try hard to be clever

Wertz

ColeTrain wrote: »

Too many people are making a living from 'the war on drugs'. If drugs were made legal in the morning then you would have all these people on the dole, that wouldn't do :rolleyes:

That's a big part of it...the very systems that have emerged to wage the war on drug supply/demand and it's infrastructure is now part of the problem whilst still being lauded as the only effective means of tackling the "problem".
Customs officials, police of all ranks, government ministers, health officials, prison authorities...many of these roles would be decimated by any mass movement toward regulation and legalisation of drugs en masse which is one of the primary reasons it'll never happen.

Terry, the reason those meds cost you and your mates so much is down to a few factors, not least of which is that the meds are probably still under patent from the pharmaceutical company, who can charge a premium to pay for all their R&D, marketing, bribing GPs etc, then the supplier and the chemist shop have to make their cut and of course this being Ireland a paddy tax whacked on top for good measure.
Comparing 'scrip meds to recreational drugs (particualrly when they're still illegal) is apples and oranges...the primary cost factor in any illegal drug is it's illegality. The supply chain is restricted to the criminal fraternity who set the prce....all along the supply chain little profits are made, which goes on to add up to the huge mark ups from poppy field to shooting gallery.

Ideally (and it'll never happen) western governments (with UN backing) would buy heroin (or any other drug) at source, paying going market rates to farmers, cut out ALL the middlemen, be they gun toting howyas from the local estate, or US backed puppet warlords, or the myriad of other people along that chain, all who contribute to the "street price".
Then supplying the drug to addicts (under a system similar to where the Canadians or Swiss are now) in a controlled way, at little to no cost (compared to the guge costs currently)....if an addict can get his/her daily fix at 10% of what thye're paying now, an arguably much cleaner supply with less inherent health problems, why on earth would they be out mugging people....the reason so many need to fund their habit through crime is solely don to the price which as I mentioned is mostly due to illegality and monoplies of supply. In a truly ideal system, heroin or cocaine would be treated like any other agricultural commodity and traded on world markets like coffee or cocoa beans, wheat, whatever...taxed and regulated.

Listen, as the docu maker himself said, what we have now isn't working and is just making it worse....whatever else is tried can't be any worse than the ssytem developed over the last 40 yrs.
Moralistic and political agruments combined with the vested interests that make their own fortunes from the drug war will make sure that legalisation never happens at the levels necessary to change things for the better...it's much better for all involved to go on being criminals and for others to make their living from that, it's much better that the small time dealer in Harlem, the hooker in harrowgate or the guy guarding the opium in Kabul go to jail or get their hands cut off, than being pragmatic and tackling drugs as an issue of personal and societal health rather than through legislative and judicial means, which only furthers the destruction of lives above and beyond what the drugs themselves actually cause...

Fukuyama

Legalise everything.

I seen the documentary and it proved to me that people will always find legal alternatives.

You might as well legalise, regulate, tax, educate and allow people to make up their own minds.

We'd also have an opportunity to forge a positive drug culture... Ie people may steer away from hard drugs if everything was legalised and only things like weed and MDMA became popular and 'cool'...

Speaking as a non-user here btw.

sink

It's down to moralistic and political prejudices. People have been indoctrinated into the belief that drugs are morally evil since birth. Trying to shake that belief is almost as difficult as trying to shake off peoples religion. I believe that the legalisation and controlled production and dissemination of drugs is the only effective policy. However I don't believe that the public at large are amenable to such a radical shift in perception.

Wertz

sink wrote: »

It's down to moralistic and political prejudices. People have been indoctrinated into the belief that drugs are morally evil since birth. Trying to shake that belief is almost as difficult as trying to shake off peoples religion. I believe that the legalisation and controlled production and dissemination of drugs is the only effective policy. However I don't believe that the public at large are amenable to such a radical shift in perception.

The public on a wide scale aren't ready, especially not here or in most countries in the west. Many people would probably consider the mass legalisation of drugs as akin to the end of civilised society...many of them failing to realise that they are already surrounded by the effects of a failed prohibition policy, that probably threatens civilised society more than what the alternative would.
If you continue to jail people for using or supplying drugs, the real criminals (people who kill, injure, steal, rape, embezzle) are less liklely to do proper jail time, and in fact may see no jail due to lack of prison places/resources. Then the fact that most people with a drug conviction can neither emigrate legally or find work with the majority of employers/companies, means that when they get out, they become a burden on the state and their families. That helps no-one, it doesn't stop the supply or the demand...the futility is depressing.

I'm also of the opinion that we've let the illegal drug trade get too much of a grip on things over the years. To contradict my other post somewhat, governments deciding to buy raw product at source and cutting out drug mules, bribed officials, dealers and whoever else along the supply chain would face a struggle; a lot of people have an awful lot to lose...I'm thinking particularly of the taliban or central American drug cartels, and some of the more organised street gangs (triads, aryan brotherhood, various mafias)...wrestling control away from these people would be difficult.

BTW in my other post I made reference to the people employed by the systems set up to keep illegal drugs in check, the vested interests...I'd like to clarify that I'm not of the opinion that all these stauatory bodies and legal entities were set up as some sort of "jobs for good folk" club in some conspiracy against the evil drug trade...these systems have simply evolved on one side while the drug trade diversified on the other. The two systems are now so entangled that it's going to take a lot of hard work and persuasion to turn things around...

sbsquarepants

Terry wrote: »

Fair enough. Let's stop shovelling the snow and let them all OD. We could do with less junkies mugging people, something they would continue to do even if heroin was legal.

Also, nice pun.

It's this kind of attitude that ensures recreational drugs will almost certainly never be legal.
Not everyone who takes drugs is a junkie, only a very small percentage are. I don't have any hard and fast figures, but i would guess it's around the same ratio as social drinkers/alcoholics.
Some people are just gluttons - be it with drugs, alcohol, food, sex, gambling or anything else.
Nobody tells you you can't have a big mac just cos mary harney doesn't know when she's had enough, or you can't have a pint because biffo might not know when to say stop. It's nanny state bulls'hit to keep uneducated peoples eyes off of the real problems.
Newsflash - people take drugs because they are ENJOYABLE. If they weren't, people might try them out of curiosity but would hardly keep coming back now would they!!
This has been the case for thousands of years and is not going to change anytime soon. It's human nature and it doesn't change to suit politicians or anyone else.