Repair/replace/refund??

jammy sammie

Hi All,
I'm wondering if someone can give me some advice please.
My Fiancé and I purchased an ipod dock/cd/stereo tower as a present to ourselves last Christmas (dec 09) costing €370. In the first few months of having it occasionally a crackling/banging noise could be heard through the speakers, almost like the bass was turned up way too high, when in fact it wasn't. Also occasionally the music would speed up while playing a song for no apparent reason, and it wasn't our iphones/ipods because they would play normally when connected to our car stereos. In the last week or so, it began to freeze and none of the buttons would work and it would not accept a cd never mind playing it.
I brought it back to the shop we purchased it from last week, I explained the problems from the beginning and said I would have brought it in when the minor problems started but they were hard to predict so it would have been hard to prove as it only happened now and again and you could be guaranteed it wouldn't happen when we brought it back to the shop. However I explained to him that because it had frozen and refused to work properly in the last few days I would be able to bring it back with something to physically show him as proof.
The Salesman told me he would contact the manufacturer and see if he could have it sent for repair. We were later informed however, that all of these particular products had been faulty and that the company who manufactured the product are in dispute and that we wouldn't be having it repaired for the forseeable future due to this and that a lower spec model without cd player is avaliable in the store we purchased it from which we don't want.
They said they would give us a credit note which would be the value of the product and which would obviously have to be spent in their store, but that they could not give us a refund. As there is nothing we want in the store we would rather the refund, we are just unsure as to what action to take?
I'm sure the law is, repair/replace/refund? does this still stand if the manufacturer doesn't resolve the issue or refund the shop?
All advice would be greatly appreciated,
Thank you!

P. Breathnach

What the manufacturer can or can not do is irrelevant: your contract is with the retailer.

Yes, the three classic remedies are repair or replace or refund. If the retailer can not arrange a proper repair, then that's off the list. If the retailer cannot give you a suitable replacement, that also off the list. That leaves only a refund.

In your position I would write formally to the retailer asking for a refund. I would mention the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980, as even knowing the title of the relevant legislation has a lot of impact on some people.

[You can check the Act for yourself at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/index.html.]

jammy sammie

Thanks P. Breathnach for your response.

I was thinking of going back there on Sunday when I'm off work myself and asking to speak with the manager that will be on and explaining to him that I know my rights and I want a refund and if I he doesn't comply say I will regrettably take things further.

Or do you think a written letter would be more effective??

delllat

jammy sammie wrote: »

Hi All,
I'm wondering if someone can give me some advice please.
My Fiancé and I purchased an ipod dock/cd/stereo tower as a present to ourselves last Christmas (dec 09) costing €370. In the first few months of having it occasionally a crackling/banging noise could be heard through the speakers, almost like the bass was turned up way too high, when in fact it wasn't. Also occasionally the music would speed up while playing a song for no apparent reason, and it wasn't our iphones/ipods because they would play normally when connected to our car stereos. In the last week or so, it began to freeze and none of the buttons would work and it would not accept a cd never mind playing it.
I brought it back to the shop we purchased it from last week, I explained the problems from the beginning and said I would have brought it in when the minor problems started but they were hard to predict so it would have been hard to prove as it only happened now and again and you could be guaranteed it wouldn't happen when we brought it back to the shop. However I explained to him that because it had frozen and refused to work properly in the last few days I would be able to bring it back with something to physically show him as proof.
The Salesman told me he would contact the manufacturer and see if he could have it sent for repair. We were later informed however, that all of these particular products had been faulty and that the company who manufactured the product are in dispute and that we wouldn't be having it repaired for the forseeable future due to this and that a lower spec model without cd player is avaliable in the store we purchased it from which we don't want.
They said they would give us a credit note which would be the value of the product and which would obviously have to be spent in their store, but that they could not give us a refund. As there is nothing we want in the store we would rather the refund, we are just unsure as to what action to take?
I'm sure the law is, repair/replace/refund? does this still stand if the manufacturer doesn't resolve the issue or refund the shop?
All advice would be greatly appreciated,
Thank you!

after that level of service id insist on the money back to spend elsewhere

theres no way they can offer u a lower spec model with no cd player

most shops would do the decent thing and give you a free upgrade

jammy sammie

Delllat, i agree it is definately looking like the only option,

unfortunately there is no upgrade to offer as ours was the newest model, and we were told we could wait for the manufacturers to develop a new one but that could take a week or it could take two years we were told! :eek:

P. Breathnach

jammy sammie wrote: »

... Or do you think a written letter would be more effective??

I can't say for sure. It depends on a number of things.

What I can say for sure is that it has always worked for me. That includes times when I met somebody in person and didn't get satisfaction. So you could do both: go there on Sunday if it's not too inconvenient for you, and if you don't get what you want, then write a letter.

I hope you don't think it patronizing if I suggest that you should not say "I know my rights". It tends to get people's hackles up. It is better to say "Your obligation to me is ... (repair/replace/refund stuff... Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act ... )". Then you are discussing what he should do, and that's where you want to be.

basil83

+1 on not saying 'I know my rights'! As a former electronics shop assistant you'd instantly be skeptical of people who said that because the majority had no idea what they were talking about and misinterpreted the Act horrendously. This is pretty simple though.

Your contract is with the shop but the manufacturer's dispute is muddying the shop's response. A shop doesn't need to offer you replace, repair AND refund. It's a progressive thing. Clearly the first is out, the second is a little shaky (only because if they CAN replace it for you - perhaps a system with similar specs and with a CD player but in a different brand - if it is very similar and in the same price range then they may claim you're being unreasonable to not accept this, but that doesn't seem to be the case here if they're only offering an inferior version of the one you bought) and the third depends on whether that manager is willing to accept the hit of refunding the faulty product that they have little to no chance of getting credit from the manufacturer for while the dispute is ongoing. They may try argue that your warranty is with the manufacturer because 30 days has elapsed from the time of sale (which is true) but because this is a widespread problem with this particular product then they should - for customer service reasons if nothing else - either find you a suitable replacement system in a different brand with perhaps a small discount for the inconvenience or give you a refund.

The main bit of the Act that concerns you says that:

"Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are of merchantable quality"

i.e. that they are fit for the use they are to be put to. Yours isn't. It wasn't their fault that it isn't, but it isn't. If they have no system with similar-ish specs etc. that fits your needs then if they've any sense they'll give you a refund. Unfortunately shop refund policies are often set in some lofty office who never have to deal with the customer on the ground. Be pleasant but firm, definitely try to discuss it rather then soapbox and take it to Small Claims if you need to. Good luck

jammy sammie

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I hope you don't think it patronizing if I suggest that you should not say "I know my rights". It tends to get people's hackles up. It is better to say "Your obligation to me is ... (repair/replace/refund stuff... Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act ... )". Then you are discussing what he should do, and that's where you want to be.

No no not at all, sorry that probably sounded wrong,:o
I don't wanna go in all worked up about it because I'll have a better chance of getting somewhere with a calmer and more informed attitude and not an angry towards him/her, eventhough I fell that way

jammy sammie

basil83 wrote: »

+1 on not saying 'I know my rights'! As a former electronics shop assistant you'd instantly be skeptical of people who said that because the majority had no idea what they were talking about and misinterpreted the Act horrendously. This is pretty simple though.

Your contract is with the shop but the manufacturer's dispute is muddying the shop's response. A shop doesn't need to offer you replace, repair AND refund. It's a progressive thing. Clearly the first is out, the second is a shaky (only because if they CAN replace it for you - perhaps a system with similar specs and with a CD player but in a different brand - if it is very similar and in the same price range then they may claim you're being unreasonable to not accept this, but that doesn't seem to be the case here if they're only offering an inferior version of the one you bought) and the third depends on whether that manager is willing to accept the hit of refunding the faulty product that they have little to no chance of getting credit from the manufacturer for while the dispute is ongoing. They may try argue that your warranty is with the manufacturer because 30 days has elapsed from the time of sale (which is true) but because this is a widespread problem with this particular product then they should - for customer service reasons if nothing else - either find you a suitable replacement system in a different brand with perhaps a small discount for the inconvenience or give you a refund.

The main bit of the Act that concerns you says that:

"Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are of merchantable quality"

i.e. that they are fit for the use they are to be put to. Yours isn't. It wasn't their fault that it isn't, but it isn't. If they have no system with similar-ish specs etc. that fits your needs then unfortunately for them if they've any sense they'll give you a refund. Unfortunately shop refund policies are often set in some lofty office who never have to deal with the customer on the ground. Be pleasant but firm, definitely try to discuss it rather then soapbox and take it to Small Claims if you need to. Good luck

Thanks for the information. It's just a pity that the shop doesn't have anything that we want as a replacement or a similar item. Quite frustrating as I was talking to another salesman in there and asked him would any of the sound systems they had be of similar quality and he told me no, that there was nothing as good a quality as the sound system we had.
I was also told by the guy who was dealing with my return that he looked into giving us the display model but was told that that was acting up too and had to be taken off the floor.
hopefully I won't have to take it to the small claims court.
I'll let ye know how I get on...fingers crossed!!

basil83

I'm sorry but I just asked a friend who is manager I know in a similar shop and his take is completely different to mine. According to him the shop even offering a credit note is a courtesy thing because technically they don't have to give you anything once the warranty with the shop is through (usually 30 days but could be 1 yr with places like Argos). After that it's with the manufacturer. His argument is that if the problem you experienced had been a once off they probably would have organised a refund but because it's a persistent problem with the product then they can't give you a refund or they'd have set a precedent and need to refund everyone who had bought one of those systems irrespective of when they bought it and that, clearly, is an untenable position. His view of the merchantability side of things is that it DID work (albeit in a non-satisfactory way, but you kept it) for 8 months prior to you bringing it back so their liability for it is long gone. The manufacturer should obviously take it back and have functioning stock, allowing the shop to repair or replace it for you and he says the shop should report the manufacturers intransigence to the Ombudsman, but from his p.o.v. unfortunately you lose out unless you want to privately sue the manufacturer.

I'm gonna bow out of this discussion because I'm sorry for misleading you but I was speaking from my own experience and clearly shops do differ quite significantly on this. We tended to take it on a case by case basis but I never had to deal with a situation where the product was faulty across the board. Some shops will take a financial hit to preserve customer relations, clearly some can't on principle.

P. Breathnach

basil83 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just asked a friend who is manager I know in a similar shop and his take is completely different to mine. According to him the shop even offering a credit note is a courtesy thing because technically they don't have to give you anything once the warranty with the shop is through (usually 30 days but could be 1 yr with places like Argos). After that it's with the manufacturer. His argument is that if the problem you experienced had been a once off they probably would have organised a refund but because it's a persistent problem with the product then they can't give you a refund or they'd have set a precedent and need to refund everyone who had bought one of those systems irrespective of when they bought it and that, clearly, is an untenable position. His view of the merchantability side of things is that it DID work (albeit in a non-satisfactory way, but you kept it) for 8 months prior to you bringing it back so their liability for it is long gone. The manufacturer should obviously take it back and have functioning stock, allowing the shop to repair or replace it for you and he says the shop should report the manufacturers intransigence to the Ombudsman, but from his p.o.v. unfortunately you lose out unless you want to privately sue the manufacturer.

I'm gonna bow out of this discussion because I'm sorry for misleading you but I was speaking from my own experience and clearly shops do differ quite significantly on this. We tended to take it on a case by case basis but I never had to deal with a situation where the product was faulty across the board. Some shops will take a financial hit to preserve customer relations, clearly some can't on principle.

I think your earlier response was closer to the mark. A shopkeeper cannot unload his responsibility on to the manufacturer (or wholesaler, or importer, or anybody else). The retailer should solve the problem for the customer. In turn, the retailer can make a claim against his supplier, but that's not jammy sammie's concern.

jammy sammie can not sue the manufacturer, because no contract exists between jammy sammie and the manufacturer. jammy sammie's only contract is with the retailer.

Your friend's advice tells us the nature of the problem that consumers have to deal with. His views must come from somewhere, and I expect that they come from his employer (they certainly are biased in favour of the retailer and against the consumer). That is why it can be difficult for jammy sammie to get satisfaction.

mickoneill30

basil83 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just asked a friend who is manager I know in a similar shop and his take is completely different to mine. According to him the shop even offering a credit note is a courtesy thing because technically they don't have to give you anything once the warranty with the shop is through (usually 30 days but could be 1 yr with places like Argos).

You're wrong there. I've worked in retail too.

Warranty does not replace statutory rights. It's in addition to your statutory rights. The warranty is provided by the manufacturer and if it must be adhered to but it doesn't replace the repair / replace / refund.

There's no 30 days or one year limit in Ireland. The goods are expected to last for more than a few months. And this is even easier because this is a known / documented problem. If the retailer has a problem with the manufacturer then they don't pass it on to the customer. The customer deals with the retailer.

The consumers contract is with the shop. If they go to the small claims court it'll be the shop they're taking the case against, not the manufacturer.

http://www.consumerassociation.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=21
http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Faulty-goods/
Questions 3, 6 & 11 are the most relevant in the second link.


Edit: I should have read P. Breathnachs response first:P

91011

even if a product vdevelops a manufacturing fault after the manufacturers warranty had ended, the consumer may have rights.

Manufacturer & shop guarantees are ADDITIONAL to your statutory rights to have a product work for you for a reasonable time.


In this case the ONLY option available to the retailer is to refund the OP. - And it shouldn't be difficult as they will get a refund themselves from the manufacturer in any case.


I'd go in with a nice letter outlining the sale of goods act and that as a repair or replacement is nit available that you expect an immediate refund. Hand the letter to the manager and ask hime to respond to you there and then.

dudara

The only viable option in this situation is a refund. A refund has to be a monetary refund, i.e. not a credit note.

If they do agree to provide you with a refund, they can insist on refunding you via the original method of payment. So if you paid with a credit card, they are entitled to refund to the credit card.

chappy

Just wondering if the OP has their original receipt?

nobeastsofierce

dudara wrote: »

If they do agree to provide you with a refund, they can insist on refunding you via the original method of payment. So if you paid with a credit card, they are entitled to refund to the credit card.

Are you sure about this? I've heard this mentioned in a couple of stores, but have never been in a position where I had to argue it. Nor however have I ever seen it mentioned in any applicable consumer legislation.

If I buy something from your shop with my credit card, and then cancel my credit card, do I lose my right to refund?

chappy

This is true.You are only entitled to a refund in the same method as you pay.Most stores if you pay with any type of voucher(eg. An Post) they will only refund you with their own store vouchers as they cannot issue external parties vouchers.

P. Breathnach

I know that many retailers adopt such practices, and can see why. Among other things, the reversal of CC transactions rather than refunding cash makes it difficult for people to use stolen CCs to obtain cash.

Such restrictions can reasonably and legally be applied where goods are returned because a customer has had a change of mind.

I do not accept that they can be similarly applied where goods are returned because they are faulty. In particular, I would reject the idea of being forced to accept vouchers from a retailer with whom one has had a thoroughly unsatisfactory experience and relationships are bad.

nobeastsofierce

If legislation states refund, but does not mention the form, then surely it is expected in legal tender, unless the refundee accepts an alternative?

fungun

On a related note, which is applicable to me at the moment!

Bought an item with a warranty - failed just before warranty went out of date and brought it back to be repaired/replaced. Shop is saying my initial warranty holds....which will be expired when I get the item back. Should I not get a warranty on the repaired/replaced item?

jor el

A warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, and a warranty is up to the manufacturer/retailer to set conditions on. Your statutory rights supersede the warranty though, and any repair must be permanent.

nobeastsofierce

jor el wrote: »

and any repair must be permanent.

I've read this before, and find it a little confusing. Is it understood as permanent, to the expected durability of the original purchase?

I'm trying to think of an hypothetical example.

Say if a laptop battery should last....three years, and fails after two. The store plays nice, and replaces it. Now, say the replacement battery also fails after two years. Is the store on the hook to replace it too?

EDIT: Clarify: or is it supposed to be permanent to the expected life of the original battery (i.e. 1 further year?)

fungun

and presumably its just that part?

My particular question is to do with a car part...bought it with a 3 month guarantee....failed just before that, but assume that for that specific part i should be entitled to a further 3 months as by the time i get the car back the first 3 months will have expired. So unless warranty is extended then they could now put in a part that just lasts a day but if it fails again it will be out of warranty

jor el

In the law, everything should last a reasonable length of time. If a repair is conducted, then it should again last for a reasonable length. A warranty is in addition to this, and has no real legal basis. A manufacturer or retailer can give any kind of warranty they like, or none at all, but this doesn't change your statutory rights.

If a repair fails in an unreasonably short amount of time, then it should be repaired again, or a replacement or refund offered.