Atheist Ireland out to remove the Angelus

Zombrex

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Truley wrote: »

The media is a different kettle of fish as RTE deals primarily with entertainment, people certainly shouldn't look to it as the voice of the state or society in general. It screens a huge variety of programmes, it doesn't necessarily mean it's adjoining itself to a particular ethos. For example if the showed a documentary on Richard Dawkins are we to think they are supporting an athiest agenda?

No one is objecting to broadcasting on religious topics

The Angelus isn't religious broadcasting. It is a call to prayer positioned in a privileged place in the scheduling, elevating one religion's practices above all others in terms of importance.

A Catholic is not supposed to be watching the angelus, they are supposed to be praying. It is a forced interruption of programming.

There is no way at all that it fits into the current religious guidelines of RTE themselves, or their mandate. RTE want to get rid of it.

They don't because the political pressure from the right-wing Catholic conservatives is too great.

Truley wrote: »

I see it as a programme for a particular niche of people, just like the soaps or the football, nothing more.

Well then you aren't paying attention.

panda100

ceannair06 wrote: »

You want to live in a non-Catholic country ?

MOVE.

I got the same response once from my brother :rolleyes:
Didn't Jesus teach tolerance,inclusion and equality?

Angelus doesn't bother me that much. As others have said there are bigger fish to fry and targeting something which is watched only in nursing homes won't do the atheist cause for equality any good.

gbee

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

[QUOTE=Pushtrak;67538108 Or, do people see the angelus being gone as some bigger victory? [/QUOTE]

It's just bloody annoying. And don't start me on those guys screaming from those towers prayer calling other religions either ...

Long Term Louth

liamw wrote: »

What are you talking about.. who cares as long as the moderator is fair in the moderation of the forum...

Obviously you do

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

robindch wrote:

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why should your viewing preferences take precedence over those tax payers who do want to hear the Angelus or are too elderly/sick to get to church?

And why should your religious wishes take precedence over my not wanting to have my home invaded once a day with religious bell-ringing?

sink wrote: »

I never play the lottery. I think it's a silly undertaking which preys upon humans poor capacity to calculate odds. I object to the lottery being shown prime time on [...] They should restrict themselves to scripted prime time dramas, comedies, documentaries, news & current affairs as they're the shows I watch most.

Long Term Louth wrote: »

However your own viewpoint seems extremely one sided?

Sheesh, folks, read what I wrote it in context :rolleyes:

I really don't care about the angelus, but then again I don't watch RTE for more than a few minutes a day, so it's not an issue for me. However, as I said here and Wicknight said just above, the state broadcaster is clearly favouring one religion above all others and that's simply not appropriate for a state to do. How would people react if, say Sinn Fein were permitted two minutes of free airtime each day to preach their stuff and the best reason that people could produce was "well, there are some people in old folks homes who are too frail to get to political rallies in person"?

The state should favour all religions equally, or it should favour none, and the latter really is much easier.

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Long Term Louth wrote: »

No chance for fair play so

A+A is not a religious forum. On the contrary, it's dedicated to the free exchange and free debate of ideas.

More details in this post.

panda100

robindch wrote: »

Sheesh, folks, read what I wrote it in context :rolleyes:

I really don't care about the angelus, but then again I don't watch RTE for more than a few minutes a day, so it's not an issue for me. However, as I said here and Wicknight said just above, the state broadcaster is clearly favouring one religion above all others and that's simply not appropriate for a state to do.

I guess since the constitution was changed in 1973 so the 'special position' of the RC church was no longer recognised and all religions were to be treated equally, could you say that RTE are acting unconstitutionally by showing the Angelus?

Tim Robbins

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

robindch wrote: »

The state should favour all religions equally, or it should favour none, and the latter really is much easier.

You are arguing on principles. Pragmatism isn't always defined by principles.
The benefits of not having the Angelus are extremly minor. The loss for old people who still say the Rosary is significant and the loss for the mild church goer while less significant is still probably greater than the gain for a secularist. You can therefore make a reasonable utilitarian case for keeping it.

Secondly, as I have said already, if you want no favouritism from the state towards Christianity you would have to get rid of the public holidays around Christmas and Easter as well. You'd also have to stop presenters on RTE saying things like Happy Easter or Happy Christmas and replace it with "Happy holiday" season. This just gets ridiculous. "Petty" secularism has no place in pragmatism.

Michael Nugent

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

panda100 wrote: »

I guess since the constitution was changed in 1973 so the 'special position' of the RC church was no longer recognised and all religions were to be treated equally, could you say that RTE are acting unconstitutionally by showing the Angelus?

More specifically than that, they are showing programme bias in terms of religion, which contravenes the Public Service Remit of their Public Service Broadcasting charter.

Michael Nugent

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You are arguing on principles. Pragmatism isn't always defined by principles.
The benefits of not having the Angelus are extremly minor. The loss for old people who still say the Rosary is significant and the loss for the mild church goer while less significant is still probably greater than the gain for a secularist. You can therefore make a reasonable utilitarian case for keeping it.

The cumulative benefit is significant of disentangling the State from all activities where it currently promotes religion. The issues have to be addressed one at a time, but their cumulative impact is greater than the sum of the parts.

The Rosary is not the same thing as the Angelus. But your understandable conflation of these different prayers strengthens the argument that religious people would lose nothing from the Angelus being removed from RTE.

Just as such people currently say the Rosary without RTE's involvement, they can continue to say the Angelus without RTE's involvement. They don’t need the State broadcasting authority to act as an intermediary between them and their god.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Secondly, as I have said already, if you want no favouritism from the state towards Christianity you would have to get rid of the public holidays around Christmas and Easter as well.

I am quite happy for the State to declare public holidays around these festivals. They are age-old seasonal festivals that pre-date Christianity, and that today happen to have a Christian element to them.

However, it would be inappropriate for the State to actively celebrate the religious element of such festivals by, for example, issuing postage stamps or official Christmas cards of a religious nature.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You'd also have to stop presenters on RTE saying things like Happy Easter or Happy Christmas and replace it with "Happy holiday" season. This just gets ridiculous. "Petty" secularism has no place in pragmatism.

I agree with you on this. I’m not at all hung up on the etymology of the words Christmas or Easter. They happen to be named after the Christian god Christ and the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, just as today happens to be named after the Norse god Thor. Happy Thursday!

Tim Robbins

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

Michael Nugent wrote: »

The cumulative benefit is significant of disentangling the State from all activities where it currently promotes religion. The issues have to be addressed one at a time, but their cumulative impact is greater than the sum of the parts.

What exactly is the difference between "cumulative benefit" and "sum of the parts"?

The Rosary is not the same thing as the Angelus. But your understandable conflation of these different prayers strengthens the argument that religious people would lose nothing from the Angelus being removed from RTE.

It's not a "conflation" it's an association. But even if it is a conflation that does not infer religious people would loose nothing. There's a leap in your logic there.

Just as such people currently say the Rosary without RTE's involvement, they can continue to say the Angelus without RTE's involvement. They don’t need the State broadcasting authority to act as an intermediary between them and their god.

No they don't need the Angelus. But its nice for them. Necessitation isn't always a good argument. You don't even need a TV or radio. But they are nice to have.

However, it would be inappropriate for the State to actively celebrate the religious element of such festivals by, for example, issuing postage stamps or official Christmas cards of a religious nature.

What about showing mass on Christmas day that too much for you as well?

Also, do you accept that there is a significant amout of atheists here who don't agree with this campaign?

Ush1

If getting rid of the Angelus was the thin end of the wedge.:D

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

I don't think they should be fighting to get rid of it when Richard Dawkins is still allowed to go on TV and say "religion is ruining the world".

pH

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Switch the channel if you don't want to watch it.

Why should your viewing preferences take precedence over those tax payers who do want to hear the Angelus or are too elderly/sick to get to church?

Not just directed to Magic btw but to those who shares his sentiments in general.

Well if you want to listen to bells at 6pm I suggest you record it (either tape or VCR) and play it back at 6pm yourself, then the rest of us can be spared it.

There's no point to a 'live' Angelus, nothing changes from day to day, and no one would stop you playing your own bells in your own house if you wanted.

However that surely wouldn't suit would it? And why? Because the Angelus on at 6PM is a statement of power and status, it's a "f*ck you, kneel down, look at us" to everyone else. Unless you have another reason why those Catholics couldn't play a recording of bells rather than listen to a broadcast recording of bells?

Tim robbins wrote:

Also, do you accept that there is a significant amout of atheists here who don't agree with this campaign?

And you're entirely free to form Irish Atheists for Jesus to campaign for the retention of the Angelus if you like.

checkyabadself

I would say something if the angelus was played twice a day in every government building, school and through loud speakers in public areas like the Islamic wailing played early in the morning in muslim countries, but it seems like AI are just waging a war against a trivial minute of time that you are free to ignore.

They`d be more in their line to extend the angelus from 1 minute to thirty, and schedule it to play instead of fair city. It`d keep everyone happy.

The Mad Hatter

storm2811 wrote: »

I don't think they should be fighting to get rid of it when Richard Dawkins is still allowed to go on TV and say "religion is ruining the world".

Well, Dawkins at least defends his arguments. I haven't heard any defences for BONNNNNNNNGGGGG.

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You are arguing on principles. Pragmatism isn't always defined by principles. The benefits of not having the Angelus are extremly minor. The loss for old people who still say the Rosary is significant and the loss for the mild church goer while less significant is still probably greater than the gain for a secularist. You can therefore make a reasonable utilitarian case for keeping it.

Yes, I am arguing on principles -- are you suggesting I shouldn't?

And I'd have thought it was a straightforward issue. As pH implies, a tape recorder costs a tenner and there is no reason on earth for the national broadcaster to grind to a halt on telly and radio to relay the sound of a clanging bell to the entire nation because you think that a few elderly people -- I can't seriously believe that you are using this example -- would feel significantly upset if it wasn't there.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Secondly, as I have said already, if you want no favouritism from the state towards Christianity you would have to get rid of the public holidays around Christmas and Easter as well.

These can be rebranded as secular holidays, just as christianity rebranded earlier pagan holidays as its own. No need to cancel them.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You'd also have to stop presenters on RTE saying things like Happy Easter or Happy Christmas and replace it with "Happy holiday" season. This just gets ridiculous. "Petty" secularism has no place in pragmatism.

Yes, this is ridiculous and that's why I'm not asking for these things. All I'd like to see is the angelus gone from the nation's telly screens, but as I'm not "militant/aggressive" enough to do anything to make it happen, I'll restrain myself to passing on the best of luck to AI in their efforts!

But what I get out of all this debate is two things. Firstly, the strange fact that people who say they are secular, seem to support a state broadcaster who's openly non-secular. And more interestingly, that an item as completely trivial as the angelus is causing a reasonable amount of upset, so I can't help but wonder how much resistance there would be from the broader population to something that actually matters, like extracting the schools from the clutches of the church. Weird.

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I haven't heard any defences for BONNNNNNNNGGGGG.

Well, in fairness, one defence has been put forward -- that people in old folks' homes would be upset if it disappeared.

I'd be interested to hear something a bit more credible...

MikeC101

ceannair06 wrote: »

I notice how you athiest hate everything religious but you'll still take advantage of a long Easter weekend won't you ? If you're so keen on maintaining your athiestic stance, go to work!

When I worked in an international bank a few years back, I did work on Easter, and most religious holidays.

liamw wrote: »

What are you talking about.. who cares as long as the moderator is fair in the moderation of the forum...

But how can they moderate fairly if they don't love Jesus? Answer: They can't! :mad:

On a serious note, some of the "if you don't like America, you can get out" style responses illustrate perfectly the kind of response to be expected, and the kind of person who will be drawn out by this campaign. Pick your battles, methinks.

time42play

ceannair06 wrote: »

I think it was a disgrace when the Angelus was changed to remove religious symbolism.

You want to live in a non-Catholic country ?

MOVE.
!

Oh how I wish I could!!

Actually never watch RTE News so it's not a problem. Occasionally when visitors arrive I show them the quaint little "invasion of the brain snatchers moment" and we all get a good laugh.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Well, Dawkins at least defends his arguments. I haven't heard any defences for BONNNNNNNNGGGGG.

Well the majority of the country is Catholic isn't it?
What I meant was that people think the angelus is forcing views on people or whatever,while he is doing the exact same?

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

Well, in fairness, one defence has been put forward -- that people in old folks' homes would be upset if it disappeared.

I'd be interested to hear something a bit more credible...

storm2811 wrote: »

Well the majority of the country is Catholic isn't it?
What I meant was that people think the angelus is forcing views on people or whatever,while he is doing the exact same?

I meant defence of the content, rather than of the broadcast.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I meant defence of the content, rather than of the broadcast.

The content?As in the bunch of random scenes they show when it's on?

The Mad Hatter

storm2811 wrote: »

The content?As in the bunch of random scenes they show when it's on?

Yes.

Don't mind me, I'm just being facetious.

MagicMarker

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

storm2811 wrote: »

Well the majority of the country is Catholic isn't it?
What I meant was that people think the angelus is forcing views on people or whatever,while he is doing the exact same?

I don't think the angelus is forcing views on people. I think a publicly funded entity should remain secular. So what if the majority are catholic? Does this mean it would be okay should RTE start broadcasting religious imagery 24 hours a day?

robindch

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I meant defence of the content, rather than of the broadcast.

I'd be interested to see a defence of either

axer

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

I would think RTE could gain to make maybe €7-10k by using the angelus spot for two 30 second adverts. This effectively means that 2-3 million euro of RTEs budget is wasted every year because it is airing a call to prayer for christians. This to me, especially in a recession, is ludacris.

I commend Atheist Ireland for highlighting this issue. I think it is crazy that some people think that the issues that are seen as been smaller should be just forgotten just because there are other "bigger" issues. They all matter in the over all scheme of things. Why shouldn't issues such as these be highlighted along with the larger issues such as the lack of secular primary and secondary education.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Yes.

Don't mind me, I'm just being facetious.

Oh,well in that case I don't know,just seems to be things that have nothing to do with religion most of the time.
Children drawing,people cleaning up a park,some woman coming home from work..
I think they show stuff like to try and take the whole religious aspect away from it a bit.

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't think the angelus is forcing views on people. I think a publicly funded entity should remain secular. So what if the majority are catholic? Does this mean it would be okay should RTE start broadcasting religious imagery 24 hours a day?

No they shouldn't but it's just there,people are used to it and I think it's a very small majority who actually want it gone,even some atheists don't give a crap if it's there or not.

I was once debating it with a religion teacher I used to have,back when I thought it should be gone.
Anyway,she said it's not just for Catholics,it could be for anyone,she believed nowadays instead of being used to say the rosary,it's used as a time for people to reflect on things.

MagicMarker

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

storm2811 wrote: »

No they shouldn't but it's just there,people are used to it and I think it's a very small majority who actually want it gone,even some atheists don't give a crap if it's there or not.

I was once debating it with a religion teacher I used to have,back when I thought it should be gone.
Anyway,she said it's not just for Catholics,it could be for anyone,she believed nowadays instead of being used to say the rosary,it's used as a time for people to reflect on things.

''but it's just there, people are used to it''.

Super attitude, ah sure it's how it's always been, we'll just leave it so! :rolleyes: What would the world be like if we maintained that sort of thinking?

As for it not being just for catholics...

Angelus |ˈanjələs| (also angelus)
noun [in sing. ]
a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.
• a ringing of church bells announcing this.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

MagicMarker wrote: »

''but it's just there, people are used to it''.

Super attitude, ah sure it's how it's always been, we'll just leave it so! :rolleyes: What would the world be like if we maintained that sort of thinking?

As for it not being just for catholics...

Angelus |ˈanjələs| (also angelus)
noun [in sing. ]
a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.
• a ringing of church bells announcing this.

Well,most people having nothing against it.

Yes but people do use it for a time to reflect as the sound of bells can be peaceful to some.
Which is why I think they don't really show religious images when it is on.

Tim Robbins

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

robindch wrote: »

Yes, I am arguing on principles -- are you suggesting I shouldn't?

Well I am suggesting that pragmatism shows that there should be some flexibility in those principles. For example, rather than having an inflexible stance about it, look at it from other ways from the perspective of consequentialism or utilitarianism.

But what I get out of all this debate is two things. Firstly, the strange fact that people who say they are secular, seem to support a state broadcaster who's openly non-secular. And more interestingly, that an item as completely trivial as the angelus is causing a reasonable amount of upset, so I can't help but wonder how much resistance there would be from the broader population to something that actually matters, like extracting the schools from the clutches of the church. Weird.

Because to some atheists, the Angelus on RTE is about as threatening as someone saying "Happy Christmas".

I think when people say secular they are really talking about the things that matter such as schools, divorce law etc.

pH

storm2811 wrote: »

No they shouldn't but it's just there,people are used to it

Which was just as good an argument for the continuation of Apartheid as it is for the retaining of the Angelus.

If it's a very small minority who want it gone, how small is the minority of people that actually observe the Angelus by saying the correct prayers on a daily basis?

Do you yourself say these prayers daily?

I was once debating it with a religion teacher I used to have,back when I thought it should be gone.
Anyway,she said it's not just for Catholics,it could be for anyone,she believed nowadays instead of being used to say the rosary,it's used as a time for people to reflect on things.

Ah yes, so you'd have no problem with an upside down cross and a pentagram with a satanic chant, sure the non-satanists could just use that time to reflect on things couldn't they?

And to those who are saying the rosary - they're doing it wrong - it highlights the weakness of your argument, you've no idea what the Angelus actually is - if people really wanted some time to reflect on things then they could just turn the TV off for a minute at 17:59 - then watch the news a little later.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

pH wrote: »

Which was just as good an argument for the continuation of Apartheid as it is for the retaining of the Angelus.

If it's a very small minority who want it gone, how small is the minority of people that actually observe the Angelus by saying the correct prayers on a daily basis?

Do you yourself say these prayers daily?

Probably not a lot,it's not very significant in most peoples lives,so I don't see why there is such a fuss here.

No,I don't say the prayers,I'm an atheist thanks.
Just because I don't have the same views as most atheists it does not make me religious.

pH wrote:

Ah yes, so you'd have no problem with an upside down cross and a pentagram with a satanic chant, sure the non-satanists could just use that time to reflect on things couldn't they?

And to those who are saying the rosary - they're doing it wrong - it highlights the weakness of your argument, you've no idea what the Angelus actually is - if people really wanted some time to reflect on things then they could just turn the TV off for a minute at 17:59 - then watch the news a little later.

No,I wouldn't have a problem with that being on the TV,if the majority of the country were satanists then why not?
You do know it's not all what the media make it out to be?:pac:

Alright then,if it bothers you so much,go and do something about it.

I don't see why some atheists get so worked up about this,like it's some major inconvenience in their lives.

pH

storm2811 wrote: »

No,I wouldn't have a problem with that being on the TV,if the majority of the country were satanists then why not?

For once and for all can we leave this "majority" rubbish out of this. The fact that 51% of a population want or vote for something does not in any way make it right or fair.

I don't see why some atheists get so worked up about this,like it's some major inconvenience in their lives.

This is like saying having the British Queen's image up on the wall on every government building wouldn't be a major inconvenience in Irish people's lives.

It is not about convenience, have a look how powerful regimes and institutions like to mark their control - though their images and icons - and these are important - like it or not symbols are important, people have died in their masses to protect them - and to remove them- the first thing that happened in Iraq once Saddam was gone was the mass destruction of thousands of statues and murals of him.

To understand the Angelus you must first ask:

-Why did Saddam want Iraq covered with statues and pictures of him?
- Why did the people of Iraq immediately remove them - surely a few statues on plinths weren't a major inconvenience to them?

The Angelus is a symbol of Catholic power in Ireland, directed once a day into every (well nearly all) citizen's homes via the state broadcaster.

storm2811

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

pH wrote: »

For once and for all can we leave this "majority" rubbish out of this. The fact that 51% of a population want or vote for something does not in any way make it right or fair.

But when people vote for something they want,it represents the majority,I was not happy when the Lisbon treaty was passed but it was what the majority wanted and there was nothing I could do about that!

pH wrote:

This is like saying having the British Queen's image up on the wall on every government building wouldn't be a major inconvenience in Irish people's lives.

It is not about convenience, have a look how powerful regimes and institutions like to mark their control - though their images and icons - and these are important - like it or not symbols are important, people have died in their masses to protect them - and to remove them- the first thing that happened in Iraq once Saddam was gone was the mass destruction of thousands of statues and murals of him.

To understand the Angelus you must first ask:

-Why did Saddam want Iraq covered with statues and pictures of him?
- Why did the people of Iraq immediately remove them - surely a few statues on plinths weren't a major inconvenience to them?

The Angelus is a symbol of Catholic power in Ireland, directed once a day into every (well nearly all) citizen's homes via the state broadcaster.

Alright,I see your point but honestly how much power do you think the catholic church has in this country anymore?
I have asked before to get the religious symbols taken down in my school because they had no place there in a "multi denominational" school,as they call themselves.
In the angelus however,there is no Catholic symbols,just the ringing of bells,would you request that the local church stop ringing their bells at noon at six?
Even if it is taken off the TV most people will still be able to hear them,I live three miles of the nearest church and I can hear them.

Rev Hellfire

pH wrote: »

This is like saying having the British Queen's image up on the wall on every government building wouldn't be a major inconvenience in Irish people's lives.

Actually its more like calling it a picture of the queen but where it really shows a collage of pleasing images. People are too hung up on what it was as opposed to what it is.

The 'Angelus' has moved past its Christian roots to a wishy washy new-agey mediation clap-trap. Though thats a reason to get rid of it in my view

mehfesto

storm2811 wrote: »

?
.
In the angelus however,there is no Catholic symbols,just the ringing of bells,would you request that the local church stop ringing their bells at noon at six?
Even if it is taken off the TV most people will still be able to hear them,I live three miles of the nearest church and I can hear them.

I don't pay a TV licence for local churches though.

Personally I'd like to see a shake up. If your going to play the angelus on Monday, have a Muslim call to prayer of Tuesday, etc etc.
On Friday you can have the pastafarian call to bolognase.

mohawk

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Wicknight wrote: »

I don't know how many times I've been told by people and friends that "We are a Christian country", a statement which is normally followed with something like "...and that is why Catholic schools should be left as they are"

I think the biggest issue facing secularism in this country is the distortion of how prevalent the Catholic church still is. We had a discussion about the Angelus on the Christianity forum and a good few people said that 90% of the country want the Angelus. No, 90% of the country mark "Catholic" down on their census form. Big difference.

All my friends who wouldn't know their Jesus from their Moses got married in Catholic churches. They are all baptizing their children. And they mark Catholic.

I don't think you can go after the big fish in one go, I think the little fish are where you have to start. You have to remind people that the Angelus is stupid and was only supposed to be shown for a few weeks around a religious holiday in the 50s. You have to show them they don't want it.

You have to show them that Judges have to swear to God and that this is stupid.

You have to slowly bit by bit remove the prevalence of cultural Catholicism from the country before people will realize they are actually living in a secular country.

The amount of people in this country using contraception, having sex before marriage, living in 'sin' , only go to mass at christmas or easter etc who still say they are catholic is pretty crazy. Being catholic in this country doesn't seem to be about religion at all.

mohawk

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

ceannair06 wrote: »

I think it was a disgrace when the Angelus was changed to remove religious symbolism.

You want to live in a non-Catholic country ?

MOVE.

I notice how you athiest hate everything religious but you'll still take advantage of a long Easter weekend won't you ? If you're so keen on maintaining your athiestic stance, go to work!

Go to work and miss my lie-in!! Thats just crazy talk :eek:

Glenster

I pay my TV licence, I like the idea of having an angelus. Presumably there are nans all over the country who like it too.

Soaps and celebrity reality shows are utter **** and melt idiot's brains further, but I dont campaign against them because I know some people like them, no-one is forcing me to watch it.

Besides it's on for 2 minutes a day, relax about it.

Zillah

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Glenster wrote: »

I pay my TV licence, I like the idea of having an angelus. Presumably there are nans all over the country who like it too.

Soaps and celebrity reality shows are utter **** and melt idiot's brains further, but I dont campaign against them because I know some people like them, no-one is forcing me to watch it.

Besides it's on for 2 minutes a day, relax about it.

Soaps and shite reality shows don't have a history of engaging in warfare and oppression against other soaps and reality shows. Religion has shown itself to be unbelievably divisive in society, and the only fair (and safe) way to run things is to make sure that state institutions (such as the publically funded RTE) do not favour any one religion. Sure, you pay taxes, so you get the Angelus. Should Muslims get ten seconds of their own, in proportion to their taxes? Protestants get twenty seconds, atheists 5 seconds... it's unworkable. The only way to do it is to not favour any religion (or lack thereof). If people want religion on TV then they should get a private religious TV station, putting it on the state broadcaster is unconscionable.

Quite frankly I find it horrifying that so many people regard favouring a single religion on a state broadcaster as a trivial issue. Sure, you can just change the channel. Just like how you can move to a different seat on a bus, or drink from a different fountain, or live in a different district, or watch a movie that wasn't censored...and why would you object to the police searching your home unless you have something to hide? It is terrifyingly easy to rationalise discriminatory policies, I can put down people's attitude to nothing more than short sighted ignorance at best, brainwashing at worst.

sponsoredwalk

I wrote this response before I read the thread bar the first post & I've had
to change nothing after reading it so my idea was hardly out of reach for
the people advocating the removal of the angelus. A few posters did hint
at my idea though! :cool:

Please take a moment to read this as I read all of your responses & I think
it's a lot better for everyone if you go ahead with my idea - assuming
you find no objections to it!:D:pac:

The whole concept of going after the angelus at a time like this is not only
strategically a bad move seeing as the official population numbers on
atheism are so low but conceptually because you are doing nothing but
authoritatively driving a wedge between religious & non-religious people
in a manner akin to that practiced by over-zealous feminists of the 70's.
Because of the mania feminists instilled in people they have taken away
from the majority of people an idea that conceptually has so much to
offer. If you don't believe me just read AfterHours room as an example
of the general feeling we all know & love so dearly amongst a lot of the
people we've known growing up :rolleyes:
I'm not at all saying that this is a correct perception on behalf of
people but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist & there are certainly
examples of feminist authors that people can dredge up to reinforce
their worldview. I think it's a shame because the idea's of feminism
can teach people a lot about reason, it's always "I agree women should
have rights, but..." then a tirade against feminism.

We all know who the main proportion of 6-1 news viewers are & we all
know how dissociated the majority of them would be towards the concept
of atheism bar some slanderous tirade having nothing to do with the
concept of reason so by taking away such a trivial thing like a bell
sounding for 1 minute a day when you're trying to preach concepts of
reason is extremely hypocritical.

It is hypocritical because in the name of reason you are resorting to
something that in the eyes of a religious person is an utterly trivial fight.
They know how unimportant the angelus is in the wider scheme of things
but if you take that away, as opposed to the majority of the population
taking it away, you are only making atheists, not just Atheist Ireland,
appear petty & trying to authoritatively control the lives of others.

When you stick to the big fights, the important things like the constitution
matters you've dealt with you really & sincerely do appear to be fighting
in the name of reason & justice. However, taking away the sound of a bell
that rings for 1 minute, at prime time, when the majority of the population
are religiously inclined serves as a daily reminder of how bad atheists are
trying to impinge on tradition & society by changing the small things
we all want like the angelus.

I do predict that this move is merely cannon fodder for anyone who wants
to slander atheism & will be used as ammunition & mental reinforcement
for those who suspect atheists as not for reason but for controlling
peoples lives just as the feminists did, just as the socialists did
(even though Russia was a centralized autocracy that was communism for the majority,
power for the few - not really any different to Russia's history. Just an example of how
far-reaching slander can go if it reinforces peoples preconceptions - read the politics forum
to find perfect examples of what I'm talking about).

When the majority of the population wants something that is trivial, i.e.
it doesn't impinge on the freedom of another, then you just have to
accept the tyranny of the majority. This is something I do justify as being
necessary in any form of democratic society & even in my eyes you are
just trying to exert control of other people's free time in the name of
reason. Please don't try to control what people watch on tv, let the people
who view it decide what they want to watch. You might not like it,
I might not like it but I respect the fact people want to enjoy something
so trivial as a bell ringing - even if it is based on the concept of religion.

You have the freedom to make the church pay for the angelus or else
request that RTE give all religions an equal free minute on television
- including an atheist pause for reflection.

If you had done things this way you'd not only make the viewers think
but show how foolish the concept of the angelus is & most certainly
not appear petty to anyone - especially a few atheists on this thread.
However, nowhere have I read you do anything of the sort & are instead
trying to impinge on people's lives & also painting all atheists as trying
to do the same.

My advice is to change your course of action from taking away the
angelus to a campaign to get the church to pay the 1 minute
advertising time or make them designate 1 minute of each hour with
pause for reflection for a diferent religion (and non-religion ).

I would quit Atheist Ireland over the current foolish course of action
out of disgust at such trivial matters dealt with so unprofessionally if I
was a member...

gbee

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

I've said my piece on this already.

I'd like to add that I'd NOT support Atheists Ireland in this venture.

I do consider myself an Atheist and switch channels when any offending item is broadcast.

cypharius

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

I couldn't give a **** about the Angelus. It's stupid crusades like this that make people hate Atheists.

Secular education first, then secular constitution, then we can worry about stupid **** like this.

axer

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Do people not realise that the secular education and secular constitution are going to be long drawn out fights and will take years. Should the low hanging fruit not be picked off at the same time?

I dont see how people think it is irrelevant that RTE, who is funded by the tax payer, give up €2-3 millon in revenue every year for a call to prayer for christians.

I cannot see any arguement that justifies it except the b'ull**** arguement "ah sure it does no harm" which sums up Ireland and why it is the way it is.

I think anyone thinks badly of atheists as a result of highlighting that the angelus should be taken off the air are the kind that think atheists are evil godless b'astards anyway - so who cares what they think?

Tim Robbins

I'm religious and I'd like to see the Angelus gone

Zillah wrote: »

Quite frankly I find it horrifying that so many people regard favouring a single religion on a state broadcaster as a trivial issue. Sure, you can just change the channel. Just like how you can move to a different seat on a bus, or drink from a different fountain, or live in a different district, or watch a movie that wasn't censored...

Sure you can also just take your bank holidays at Christmas and Easter

axer

I'm atheist/agnostic and I don't want to see the Angelus gone

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Sure you can also just take your bank holidays at Christmas and Easter

I couldn't care less when bank holidays are as long as I don't have to work more days than religious folk (as that would be discrimination). In fact I would rather work bank holidays etc and get the days off on different days because it would mean when I want to go away for a long weekend etc I would not be competing with a whole load of other people.

AudreyHepburn

MagicMarker wrote: »

It wouldn't, it would cater for none. Read my post again.

Wrong. It would cater for those athiests who simply can't stand anything even remotely religious because it would be getting rid of something they find offensive.

Why should something like this be replaced when people like Richard Dawkins are allowed to go on TV and rubbish Religion and push they're views on us?

For goodness sake it two minutes of TV that you can easily switch over if you don't want to see it.

Get over it.

Beruthiel

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

authoritatively driving a wedge between religious & non-religious people
in a manner akin to that practiced by over-zealous feminists of the 70's.

It's thanks to those over zealous feminists in the 70's that women were dragged out of the dark ages.
They may have been in your face, but I for one, have a lot to thank them for!

A state run TV station should be secular. End of.

mehfesto

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Wrong. It would cater for those athiests who simply can't stand anything even remotely religious because it would be getting rid of something they find offensive.

Why should something like this be replaced when people like Richard Dawkins are allowed to go on TV and rubbish Religion and push they're views on us?

For goodness sake it two minutes of TV that you can easily switch over if you don't want to see it.

Get over it.

How often is Dawkins on Irish telly badmouthing religion? Has he ever been?