Bill of all Trades

Tony

On this point I'd have to say theres a big difference in cost between meters and the quality of alignment they allow. Ranging from satfinders to handhelds and then right up the scale to a promax with spectrum analyser (my own personal preference)

thebullkf wrote: »

who says a.n.other's kits aren't as good as yours??

thebullkf

scaller wrote: »

thebullkf http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68707048&postcount=90. I do have a problem with Guy's who don't pay income tax in this business.

i know...you already answered me

Have you not read this thread from the start. What concerns me and a lot of the guys who are Legit in this business is We pay Income tax We pay PL insurance We pay for Proper Installation equipment We pay for Top of the Range satellite Kits and Aerials. And some Bob the builder who again i say Knows **** all about Aerials and Satellite Systems is popping out of the wood work supplying and Fitting for Anything up to €70 cheaper than the rest of us Its plain to see.

and i replied by asking how do you know they're not using equipment just as good as yours??

i also asked how you didn't know theyhad PL insurance.... as stated by you above.

i also said you're making a lot of presumptions about guys ,that just cos they diversify doesn't mean they know **** all about Sat. insatallation.;)



i mean you talk about 'qualified' when its not a trade with qualifications???

any decent sparks could install any satellite system.they regularly do .

Also the answers you are looking for are readily available on plenty of websites that belong to regular posters here

.

yeah but regulatre posters here didn't try and fob me off with

... Legit in this business is We pay Income tax We pay PL insurance We pay for Proper Installation equipment....

you're presuming that someone who sells gates,lays paving slabs is not any of the above. incredible.

It was pointed out to you by Tony that regular poster here who are installers can't give you a price or Quote a price

.

thats not the reason you didn't give me a price... you said it yourself.

why the hell...

etc.

also tony didn't call me a troll:rolleyes:

The Guys who are destroying this business don't work for the company's you have mentioned {To me they are healthy competition} and pay there way.

really?.... fellas who use company vans,and gear and undercut self employed people arent destroying 'your' business??

i say they are.

The guys who are destroying this business are guys who make Gates, Sell cakes, Paint, lay paving slabs and Install Cheap satellite kits {bought in Aldi/Lidl B&Q}on the side for a lot less than a guy like me or Harry.c, Tony, or any one else that install Freesat or Free to air Equipment. It is Happening for all to see.

those too, why?

is it all due to inferior therfore cheaper gear?... no they do it cheaper cos they have multiple incomes.
for you to accuse them of having no insurance-is preposterous.
for you to imply they are not legit is preposterous


i bet if you could multi-task like that you'd be doing it.
it smacks of sour grapes tbh.

thebullkf

anyway . enough fighting.:D

to those who PM'd-thanks.

St Senan

thebullkf

I recommend www.satellite.ie or www.freesat.ie in Dublin.
these Guys are Professional carry the right Equipment, Have PL insurance, Pay Tax and Use top Quality Equipment.
So please come back some time and let us Know how you get on with them and what you Bought.

Tony

thebullkf wrote: »

any decent sparks could install any satellite system.they regularly do .


.

From my own experiece I would have to disagree with that. On many occasions electricians have told homeowners during buliding works that they could take care of satellite wiring. By the time its realised that the wiring is incorrect its too late to do anything about it (plastering all done) and re wiring is needed. Not a pleasant thing to be told about your newly refurbished house.

I've no problem at all with electricians doing satellite work but they should do it from start to finish, ie get the picture on the Tv (even when it rains) and show the homeowner how to use it.

A general question for all :Would you let an electrician run water pipe and then get the plumber in later to finish it?

Tony

I would agree that a week would be enough to get most guys started training wise. What you cant train of course is whether guys care enough about their customers to carry out that training, I would hope most would be decent enough to do so.

This is not a new phenomenon of course, when I started out I witnessed guys changing out LNB's unneccessarily for profit. It quickly became my policy to always show the customer the old LNB if it had to be changed to avoid being associated with these guys.

The best (bad installer) story ever was a guy who was using the customers portable tv up at the chimney to line up the dish, he dropped it right on the roof of the customers car.

icdg

Okay guys calm down, or I'm closing this thread.

Tony

True the world has changed and a sparks running in pipe under the supervision of a plumber is one thing but an ad hoc job is another.


This is what I was referring to in the context of electricians telling customets they can "take care" of the satellite cabling.

NewHillel

Tony, no offence meant, contribution deleted.

thebullkf

Tony wrote: »

From my own experiece I would have to disagree with that. On many occasions electricians have told homeowners during buliding works that they could take care of satellite wiring. By the time its realised that the wiring is incorrect its too late to do anything about it (plastering all done) and re wiring is needed. Not a pleasant thing to be told about your newly refurbished house.

I've no problem at all with electricians doing satellite work but they should do it from start to finish, ie get the picture on the Tv (even when it rains) and show the homeowner how to use it.

A general question for all :Would you let an electrician run water pipe and then get the plumber in later to finish it?

we'll have to disagree to agree:D;)

i worked with good and bad sparks- industrial and commercial and domestic.

from atop 3 rock mountain to under the liffey-installing,terminating,testing,and commissioning LAN's,WAN's P2P,wireless you name it.

a good sparks will have extensive training,and experience.

i'm sure after 2-3 install's they'd know what they're about-and would be more than competent in the Sat. Installation field.

there was a structured cabling course initiated in DIT Kevin St.
it was the first of its kind in Ireland. circa 1996-1998.
unsure if its still going. city&guilds approved- i was on it.
very informative but i found it a bit tedious as i had practical experience in actually installing this stuff whereas the tutor was ,well a tutor really- suffice to say we learned off each other eg bend radii on Fibre on a practical level is far above the cable spec.


all in all i don't mean to offend any installers here far from it.
hope everyone understands that.

woods communicatiions do structured cabling courses.(rip-off imo)

Tony

NewHillel wrote: »

Tony, no offence meant, I wasn't suggesting that for a moment.

No problem:)

St Senan

thebullkf wrote: »

all in all i don't mean to offend any installers here far from it.
hope everyone understands that.

Thanks. The thread was starting to get out of control. All that us Guys here are trying to do is to make people understand That Cheap is not always Cheerful.

thebullkf

scaller wrote: »

Thanks. The thread was starting to get out of control. All that us Guys here are trying to do is to make people understand That Cheap is not always Cheerful.

-i agree

thebullkf

NewHillel wrote: »

I suspect our background is not a million miles apart. (Including C&G's in Kevin Street, many years ago! I also taught there, but not the structured wiring. )

gas altogether:).

thebullkf

scaller wrote: »

I agree less of the Bickering, Rude language, Condescending comments and the Questionable Attitude's from some of the posters new to this forum.

thebullkf I recommend to you www.satellite.ie or www.freesat.ie in Dublin.
these Guys are Professional carry the right Equipment, Have PL insurance, Pay Tax and Use top Quality Equipment.
So please come back some time and let us Know how you get on with them and what you Bought.

just to clarify- it wasn't only new members.;)

thebullkf

what happened to newhillels post???

St Senan

thebullkf wrote: »

just to clarify- it wasn't only new members.;)

I agree. I think we all should follow NewHillel Example. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716051&postcount=116

St Senan

Anyhow back on topic This is the 1 week FAS training course that was discussed.
I do hope the part where it explains the Trainers Qualification is a mistake or God help this business
http://www.chevrontraining.ie/docdownloads/marketing/satellite-tv-installer.pdf

Tony

FAS plumbers ! Wonder who they greased to pass the test?

ISAA

The above posts is why I have tryed to get the ISAA
(Irish satellite Aerial Association) up and running,

Proper trainned installers,
Insurance PL,
certifed,

This business will be ruined if us real installers/aerial riggers don't get our finger out.With the DTT coming around the corner, we will have every Tom,Dick,and Harry doing Mickey mouse jobs.

I have the site up and running, but when I asked from proof of insurance etc, hit a brick wall.
I offered free placing on the site with only one from Dublin taking up the offer, Tony.(satellite.ie). We have to work together, so why not ?

I have a number on good people already on board, but we need movement, and a few boob.

I would love to see this Association work, as I'm sick of "cowboys, cake salesmen, electricans, plasters, doing inproper installations, and F**king up our business.

Contact me (PM) if you's would like to give me input, a few have my direct number.



Regards,

Gerry

www.ISAA.tv

AstralTV

totally agree Gerry,

lets get together, stop whinging, and do something about it,

I for one dont want to see the trade/occupation I have been involved in for the past 20 years destroyed and undermined by a bunch of feckin amatuers.

Harry.c

Tony wrote: »

From my own experiece I would have to disagree with that. On many occasions electricians have told homeowners during buliding works that they could take care of satellite wiring. By the time its realised that the wiring is incorrect its too late to do anything about it (plastering all done) and re wiring is needed. Not a pleasant thing to be told about your newly refurbished house.

I've no problem at all with electricians doing satellite work but they should do it from start to finish, ie get the picture on the Tv (even when it rains) and show the homeowner how to use it.

A general question for all :Would you let an electrician run water pipe and then get the plumber in later to finish it?

I Totally Agree Tony, Came across this PLENTY of times myself!

AstralTV

havent we all many times, but would it not be handy if electricians/cable pullers had a recognised organisation of installers to whom they could turn to for advise? with up to date information, we all know most electricians wire houses for cable TV, not multi satellite, etc

Harry.c

ISAA wrote: »

The above posts is why I have tryed to get the ISAA
(Irish satellite Aerial Association) up and running,

Proper trainned installers,
Insurance PL,
certifed,

This business will be ruined if us real installers/aerial riggers don't get our finger out.With the DTT coming around the corner, we will have every Tom,Dick,and Harry doing Mickey mouse jobs.

I have the site up and running, but when I asked from proof of insurance etc, hit a brick wall.
I offered free placing on the site with only one from Dublin taking up the offer, Tony.(satellite.ie). We have to work together, so why not ?

I have a number on good people already on board, but we need movement, and a few boob.

I would love to see this Association work, as I'm sick of "cowboys, cake salesmen, electricans, plasters, doing inproper installations, and F**king up our business.

Contact me (PM) if you's would like to give me input, a few have my direct number.



Regards,

Gerry

www.ISAA.tv

Hi Gerry,
I am in this buisness for nearly ten years in the south east and suffer like the rest of us pro,s from the chancers, I totally agree with all you say and think it is a great idea,
I agree that if we dont do anything the buisness is going to die a death,

I myself cant see how we would stop the bob the builders doing it, the reasons being it isn,t against the law, not regulated and,, is Mary up the road with 3 kids and an unemployed husband really gonna care if freddie the plasterer puts a sat system in for her, for Christmas, at a hundred cheaper then me or anyone other pro??

Again I am not knocking the idea, i think it is great and have said it to a friend of mine also in the buisness 3 years ago that it needs to be regulated,

Just my tupence worth, Good luck to all!!!

AstralTV

if we have members & money to put into it, adverts in the press can warn against 'bob the builders' and promote ourselves,

enough members can get recognition from the goverment, and equipment sold in Ireland ,ie 'saorview' receivers could have a message on the box warning about the dangers of non qualified installs, health & safety etc,

Im sure that a brainstorm amongst us all could come up with a lot more solutions,

never know till you try, better than giving up.

excollier

ISAA wrote: »

The above posts is why I have tryed to get the ISAA
(Irish satellite Aerial Association) up and running,

Proper trainned installers,
Insurance PL,
certifed,

This business will be ruined if us real installers/aerial riggers don't get our finger out.With the DTT coming around the corner, we will have every Tom,Dick,and Harry doing Mickey mouse jobs.

I have the site up and running, but when I asked from proof of insurance etc, hit a brick wall.
I offered free placing on the site with only one from Dublin taking up the offer, Tony.(satellite.ie). We have to work together, so why not ?

I have a number on good people already on board, but we need movement, and a few boob.

I would love to see this Association work, as I'm sick of "cowboys, cake salesmen, electricans, plasters, doing inproper installations, and F**king up our business.

Contact me (PM) if you's would like to give me input, a few have my direct number.



Regards,

Gerry

www.ISAA.tv

I have just sent an inquiry to your contact page on the website. This will be my second try, so I hope I can get some more info.
Would be nice to be "kosher", as I have been installing part time now for nearly three years. I love it! But insurance is expensive! For a part timer. Unless you know different
Hope to hear from you soon.

byte

From my understanding, I think that if ISAA became big enough, there would be favourable rates for PL insurance for the group.

In fact, I'm near sure Gerry did consult an insurer who was interested in the scheme.

AstralTV

byte wrote: »

From my understanding, I think that if ISAA became big enough, there would be favourable rates for PL insurance for the group.

In fact, I'm near sure Gerry did consult an insurer who was interested in the scheme.

another plus point, and a benefit of sticking together, there has been a lot of interest from the trade since this thread was started, more members, more influence,

thank you,

dave45dave

Think a lot of installers need in house training on neatness for a start. Some of their work is disgracefull. I know at the end of the day the more you get done the more money you take home. Being an electrician myself ive seen it first hand , as in cables clipped around skirting boards and in one house clipped over fireplace to get to other side of chimney breast. Im not saying the 3 or 4 main posters on here do this , but ive seen work upc and finleys have done. Sorry if ive bored you all , and no need to give me a bollocking.

Thanks

St Senan

dave45dave wrote: »

Think a lot of installers need in house training on neatness for a start. Some of their work is disgracefull. I know at the end of the day the more you get done the more money you take home. Being an electrician myself ive seen it first hand , as in cables clipped around skirting boards and in one house clipped over fireplace to get to other side of chimney breast. Im not saying the 3 or 4 main posters on here do this , but ive seen work upc and finleys have done. Sorry if ive bored you all , and no need to give me a bollocking.

Thanks

Dave thanks for your input. A lot of what you have said relates to Crash Course Installers working on Commission {small install rates}for big install companies. But to be honest If the majority of Electricians {RECI/ECCSA} put in the Right quality cable and the correct amount of cable { more than 1 cable in each room}. Then there would be no need for the Installer to run cable externally or clip around Skirting boards.

watty

Here is forum for Installers. http://www.techtir.ie/forum/sigs/isaa There is a private sub forum for ISAA members only.

thebullkf

Harry.c wrote: »

Hi Gerry,
I am in this buisness for nearly ten years in the south east and suffer like the rest of us pro,s from the chancers, I totally agree with all you say and think it is a great idea,
I agree that if we dont do anything the buisness is going to die a death,

I myself cant see how we would stop the bob the builders doing it, the reasons being it isn,t against the law, not regulated and,, is Mary up the road with 3 kids and an unemployed husband really gonna care if freddie the plasterer puts a sat system in for her, for Christmas, at a hundred cheaper then me or anyone other pro??

Again I am not knocking the idea, i think it is great and have said it to a friend of mine also in the buisness 3 years ago that it needs to be regulated,

Just my tupence worth, Good luck to all!!!

i'm confused. what exactly makes an installer a pro?

experience?

i mean that chevron thing isn't worth a *&%$.

AstralTV wrote: »

if we have members & money to put into it, adverts in the press can warn against 'bob the builders' and promote ourselves,

enough members can get recognition from the goverment, and equipment sold in Ireland ,ie 'saorview' receivers could have a message on the box warning about the dangers of non qualified installs, health & safety etc,

Im sure that a brainstorm amongst us all could come up with a lot more solutions,

never know till you try, better than giving up.

again what qualifications do you have?


i mean a RECI'd sparks is a recognised professional trade andif he/she can install and sign off a domestic power installation, he can sure as shit install and commission a multi-satellite system.

i mean come on guys. if you want protection in this area of work or "trade" as you say it then regulations the way to go.
the reasonits not regulated yet is because there's very little risk H&S wise to any installer. the majority of it is common sense.

watty

thebullkf wrote: »

i mean a RECI'd sparks is a recognised professional trade andif he/she can install and sign off a domestic power installation, he can sure as shit install and commission a multi-satellite system.

i mean come on guys. if you want protection in this area of work or "trade" as you say it then regulations the way to go.
the reasonits not regulated yet is because there's very little risk H&S wise to any installer. the majority of it is common sense.

No. There is very little in common wiring power or a Multisatellite system. I know a good deal about both.

Drilling holes is the same.

Domestic Power install involves no RF. Satellite IF is twice to three times UHF signal frequencies. Even Cable TV distribution requires more knowledge than a TV aerial. Satellite Requires more.

Also Domestic power or even TV aerials don't have potential wind loading issues.

H&S is considerably different for 220V and most indoor wiring than the mechanical and RF issues of Satellite, which is all below 20V apart from plugging in the equipment.
see http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/

I'd not want an Aerial, Satellite or Cable guy doing Domestic Wiring without proper training.

I'd not want an ordinary "sky" installer near any Motorised Install, multifeed or Distribution system for Satellite/Cable/Terrestrial. Those all require much more training an expertise.

An electrician can probably be "trained" to do Sky or Freesat basic vanilla installs in a day. (ISAA can correct me as he has trained basic installers, I have watched him). Someone without "sparky" training would need more training.

But such training would be useless for A Multifeed or Motorised system.

A real Distribution system (Terrestrial, Satellite or cable or combo) is a more complex issue and each install has to be designed and specified for the installers. Much more testing and expertise is needed, especially for Satellite or Broadband Cable (different).

The issues that there is ISAA are twofold:
1) The H&S aspects and Insurance etc at install and subsequent Wind loading safety.

2) The quality of performance. Nothing to do with H&S. Unlike wiring, which if safe, likely works (though there are exceptions), all manner of tiny "gotchas" exist to degrade quality and performance (sometimes only on specific channels), either initially or later.

Test Gear for RF Distribution:
I have a basic DMM I use to check LNB volts, a disposable €5 lidl meter is adequate for this or to check for shorts or opens. It's probably not suitable for Mains testing. You need VERY expensive gear that a Sparky would not know how to use to test and align a system that has Cable Broadband, Cable TV, Terrestrial and Satellite. Doing Satellite only non-distribution install can use a cheaper piece of gear (DVB-S2 BER meter + Sat IF Spectrum Analyser), that is different from Cable or Terrestrial only tests.

No Electrician training would teach anything about the use of RF test gear. I doubt if most electricians know or use dBm, dBd, dBi, dBuV etc. or know what BER is.

Most electricians don't understand coax. Most can only be relied to pull in Cat5e and not even relied on to pull in Coax even if supplied with the correct type. It will not take the abuse of T&E or Cat5 or Cat3. Additional training beyond Domestic wiring is even needed to terminate Cat5e properly to Gigabit standards, or know when UTP, STP or plenum grade is required.

Test Gear for Domestic electricity is totally different:
You should have a DVM rated for use on 440 V AC, Insulation tester, possibly current clamps and ideally fused (HRC 1kA) probes are now recommended (but not yet mandatory). Using a €5 lidl meter should be practically enough to get put off site.

I'm qualified to design Installations... But not formally qualified to do them.
I've done various post Graduate Communications Engineering courses.

Also...
I'd not want someone only trained in basic contract Satellite TV like Sky Dish to install a Two Way satellite. VSAT.
Misalign and you cause interference on a different Satellite! One company was alleged to be banned from VSAT installs by Eutelsat.

Peer into waveguide assembly when on and you risk a cataract!
A whole bunch of extra training required.

Premier

Enough talking and start getting thigs moving, jesus i got a shock at the pl ins last week, but what can i do if i dont pay it i guarrantee something will happen, half the people installing satellite tv systems i wouldnt give em a dog to mind for 5 mins, cheap tools, cheap cable, cheap everything, Lowering prices to cut the good installers who keep their kit up to date and dont use ****e gear. sorry for the lang, but it does get right up my nose.

dave45dave

Holy **** Watty , lost you after a couple lines , then again i never said i knew anything about satellite.

thebullkf

what is it with people deleting their posts on this forum???


you do realise all other subscribed contributors receive your posts via email??

thebullkf

AstralTV wrote: »

havent we all many times, but would it not be handy if electricians/cable pullers had a recognised organisation of installers to whom they could turn to for advise? with up to date information, we all know most electricians wire houses for cable TV, not multi satellite, etc

its architects/designers/builders faults... not the sparks.

sparks install what they're told to install.

for basic home satellite RG6 is more than capable.

Fibre is the ideal solution but peripherals are expensive.

scaller wrote: »

Dave thanks for your input. A lot of what you have said relates to Crash Course Installers working on Commission {small install rates}for big install companies. But to be honest If the majority of Electricians {RECI/ECCSA} put in the Right quality cable and the correct amount of cable { more than 1 cable in each room}. Then there would be no need for the Installer to run cable externally or clip around Skirting boards.

again it ain't the sparks fault-plus the reason a sparks will clip to skirting is because theres no danger of it overheating or killing someone as its LV.

Tony

thebullkf wrote: »

its architects/designers/builders faults... not the sparks.

Not true in my experience

thebullkf wrote: »

sparks install what they're told to install.

No, sparks install what they feel like in many cases, whatever is cheapest at the wholesalers in many cases

thebullkf wrote: »

for basic home satellite RG6 is more than capable.

Then why does RG6 not appear on the CAI's approved list of cables?

NewHillel

watty wrote: »

No. There is very little in common wiring power or a Multisatellite system. I know a good deal about both.

Watty,

I agree with the technical detail in your post. But, most of it doesn't apply to standard domestic Sky/Freesat installations. There is no reason that qualified electricians couldn't be trained in a few days to properly install such systems. Indeed, there would be advantages if sparkies were to run in appropriate coax/cat 5 as part of all new domestic installations. In one sweep the workaround of running cables down walls and drilling holes through outside walls would be wiped out.

Given the Chevron flyer, there may well be an opening to run a proper course in the Regional Colleges. At the rates the're charging I'd be tempted to do it myself. Maybe we could share? I'd leave the multiswitches and multi-satellite stuff to you. (Its years since I worked professionally in this area and I'd need a compelling reason to bring my knowledge up to date.) LIT in Jan?

thebullkf

watty wrote: »

No. There is very little in common wiring power or a Multisatellite system. I know a good deal about both.

i never said their was commonality. but their is more similarity than drilling holes

Drilling holes is the same.

see above.

Domestic Power install involves no RF. Satellite IF is twice to three times UHF signal frequencies. Even Cable TV distribution requires more knowledge than a TV aerial. Satellite Requires more.

Also Domestic power or even TV aerials don't have potential wind loading issues.

H&S is considerably different for 220V and most indoor wiring than the mechanical and RF issues of Satellite, which is all below 20V apart from plugging in the equipment.
see http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/

I'd not want an Aerial, Satellite or Cable guy doing Domestic Wiring without proper training.

i agree.

I'd not want an ordinary "sky" installer near any Motorised Install, multifeed or Distribution system for Satellite/Cable/Terrestrial. Those all require much more training an expertise.

butwe're talking domestic installs here...... i'm sure there are sky engineers here who would disagree.

An electrician can probably be "trained" to do Sky or Freesat basic vanilla installs in a day. (ISAA can correct me as he has trained basic installers, I have watched him). Someone without "sparky" training would need more training.

But such training would be useless for A Multifeed or Motorised system.

A real Distribution system (Terrestrial, Satellite or cable or combo) is a more complex issue and each install has to be designed and specified for the installers. Much more testing and expertise is needed, especially for Satellite or Broadband Cable (different).

The issues that there is ISAA are twofold:
1) The H&S aspects and Insurance etc at install and subsequent Wind loading safety.

2) The quality of performance. Nothing to do with H&S. Unlike wiring, which if safe, likely works (though there are exceptions), all manner of tiny "gotchas" exist to degrade quality and performance (sometimes only on specific channels), either initially or later.

Test Gear for RF Distribution:
I have a basic DMM I use to check LNB volts, a disposable €5 lidl meter is adequate for this or to check for shorts or opens. It's probably not suitable for Mains testing. You need VERY expensive gear that a Sparky would not know how to use to test and align a system that has Cable Broadband, Cable TV, Terrestrial and Satellite. Doing Satellite only non-distribution install can use a cheaper piece of gear (DVB-S2 BER meter + Sat IF Spectrum Analyser), that is different from Cable or Terrestrial only tests.

+1

Most electricians don't understand coax. Most can only be relied to pull in Cat5e and not even relied on to pull in Coax even if supplied with the correct type.

thats bull

It will not take the abuse of T&E or Cat5 or Cat3. Additional training beyond Domestic wiring is even needed to terminate Cat5e properly to Gigabit standards, or know when UTP, STP or plenum grade is required.

that is also bull. Cat5e will "work" under duress,,,same as coax will-but nowhere near its capacity. coax is a sturdier cable. by far.

cat 3 is primarily for voice.

Cat5e is basic lan (but also as tv cable via transponder)

and cannot be terminated to GIGABIT standard.



well i must say all of the sparks i know understand coax and UTP.

Test Gear for Domestic electricity is totally different:
You should have a DVM rated for use on 440 V AC, Insulation tester, possibly current clamps and ideally fused (HRC 1kA) probes are now recommended (but not yet mandatory). Using a €5 lidl meter should be practically enough to get put off site.

+1

I'm qualified to design Installations... But not formally qualified to do them.
I've done various post Graduate Communications Engineering courses.

i'm the opposite,though in practical terms i can do both;)

Also...
I'd not want someone only trained in basic contract Satellite TV like Sky Dish to install a Two Way satellite. VSAT.
Misalign and you cause interference on a different Satellite! One company was alleged to be banned from VSAT installs by Eutelsat.

Peer into waveguide assembly when on and you risk a cataract!
A whole bunch of extra training required.

doesn't really apply but i get your point.

practical experience is sooo important.

i've never actually installed p2p full satellite install.

yet i am a Systimax,Belden,Krone,Corning certified installer.

thet means i have more qualifications than half the gangsters out there.
but you can't buy experience.hence my reason for coming to this forum in ther first place.

i hope my meaning isn't misconstrued here on this forum.- tis onlyadvice and help i'm lookin for and wish to offer in return.

cheers.

thebullkf

Tony wrote: »

Not true in my experience

again our experiences differ.

No, sparks install what they feel like in many cases, whatever is cheapest at the wholesalers in many cases

again, we differ, christ you must know some shit sparks.

Then why does RG6 not appear on the CAI's approved list of cables?

i dunno, but you said so yourself that it was more than capable


(is it due to futureproofing?)

St Senan

Page 1 In all new domestic installations

Instead of the Electricians blaming the architects. Why don't they read what they are been told from there ECCSA. http://www.ecssa.ie/includes/tiny_mce/plugins/filemanager/files/newsletter/16_ECSSA%20NEWSLETTER%20MARCH%2004.pdf instead of running 1 coaxial cable to each room which I come across a lot in my travels. ECCSA electricians have been told since 2001 to install more than 1 coaxial cable at the main tv point. But here we are 9 years later and still the majority of the Sparks will only put in 1 coaxial. But as a fellow installer always says the electrician does not have to make the TV system work.

thebullkf

scaller wrote: »

Page 1 In all new domestic installations

Instead of the Electricans blaming the architects. Why don't they read what they are been told from there ECCSA. http://www.ecssa.ie/includes/tiny_mce/plugins/filemanager/files/newsletter/16_ECSSA%20NEWSLETTER%20MARCH%2004.pdf instead of running 1 coaxial cable to each room Which i come across a lot in my travels.

well how many houses have you visited post 2004 that have had different specs???

watty

No, there is no need for fibre IN the Home. Fibre to the Home yes.

Really you have no idea. "RG6" as such nearly means nothing. There are many grades of RG6 like cable. Some are only good for indoor Cable TV. Some are good enough for Satellite. Some are suitable for external use and some not.

Do you know what bend radius and maximum "pull" force allowed for each RG6 grade?

Did you know that for most domestic satellite installs, it's not the loss of the particular RG6 that is issue, but corrosion resistance outdoors to dish. Sheilding, not just to stop interfering signals getting in, but stop the wide band high power level Satellite IF getting out! The LNB has a high power wide band driver amp 600MHz to 2500MHz, though the desired IF signal the box or TV uses is 950MHz to 1700MHz or 2100MHz.

Domestic Electricians are not qualified to do Alarms, CCTV, Audio/Video/Control in Studios, TV, Satellite or Cable RF.

LV can be dangerous, though usually isn't. Drop a spanner on car battery or get metal watch strap caught between + (only 10V to 14V) and metal work

The major issues are quality and interference.

I've worked with builders and Architects. The reputable companies use specialists for specialist jobs. You would not use an Electrician to do plumbing or joinery.

The cheapskates that don't bother with cavity insulation etc. give Electricians pretend coax, occasionally they might call it RG6.

http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/articles/coax-cable-quality.shtml

Loss
Cable types A and B performed almost identically, so I have shown both as one line on fig 3. Losses climb to 18dB per 100m at the top of the UHF band, and 33dB at the top of the satellite IF band. Cable type C is significantly more lossy at 24.5dB and 44.5dB for the same frequencies.

There are many different ‘type D’ cables, and frankly you only have to look at some of them to see that they are about as much use as wet string. For these tests I used one of the better products. Even so Type D comes in at 32.5dB for top UHF and a massive 66dB—double the figure for types A and B—for the top of the satellite IF band.

Screening
The crosstalk figures below are simply the differences between the signal level entering the transmit cable and those leaving the receive cables.
Cable type
A
B
C
D

Crosstalk from type D
–80.4dB
–81.4dB
–66.6dB
–29.0dB

Although the signal sources and measuring instruments were 5m apart, the results for cable types ‘A’ and ‘B’ were, I think, compromised slightly by direct transmission from source to instrument. This is likely to happen with a ratio of 80dB. Slight movement of the connectors caused a fluctuation of a few dB, so for this reason, the figures for cable types ‘A’ and ‘B’ are probably slightly pessimistic. The crosstalk from types ‘C’ and ‘D’ was much more ‘solid’.

Illegally imported USA 915MHz ISM gadgets (phones, walkie talkies, weather stations, baby alarms and more), GSM 900MHz, GSM 1800 DECT phones (1900MHz), 1.4GHz security systems all can "knock out" some channels but not all on Satellite box with inappropriate coax, or Satellite signal can leak from cable and disrupt these. The Satellite cable produces signals down to 600MHz or less (down to 100MHz is possible) when the "high band" 22kHz tone on channels are used.
So selecting certain channels will wipe out TV reception and even possibly Marine Radio, Aircraft or FM Radio local reception!

So screening of cable is very important as are suitable quality diplexers at both ends when sharing a cable between satellite IF and TV/Radio/CableTV/Broadband.

If a Stacker /Destacker is used (evil boxes IMO) instead of a second coax for Sky HD, Sky+ or other PVR, then interference from or to WiFi, Microwave ovens, MMDs and Video senders is an issue also.

NewHillel

Tony wrote: »

Then why does RG6 not appear on the CAI's approved list of cables?

Most likely because its life expectancy outdoors is less. However, for most indoor installations its fine. (If you look up a frequency/attenuation graph for it, you'll see that the bandwidth is fine, other than for extended runs.)

watty

NewHillel wrote: »

Watty,

I agree with the technical detail in your post. But, most of it doesn't apply to standard domestic Sky/Freesat installations. There is no reason that qualified electricians couldn't be trained in a few days to properly install such systems.

watty wrote: »

An electrician can probably be "trained" to do Sky or Freesat basic vanilla installs in a day. (ISAA can correct me as he has trained basic installers, I have watched him). Someone without "sparky" training would need more training.

Maybe two days for combo Saorsat/Freesat.

But the suggestion that an electrician can do a distribution system without training even if the parts and schematic are specified is not sane.

NewHillel

thebullkf wrote: »

cat 3 is primarily for voice.

Cat5e is basic lan (but also as tv cable via transponder)

and cannot be terminated to GIGABIT standard.

IEEE 802.3ab defines standards for 1000BASE-T – Gigabit Ethernet over category 5 cable. It most certainly can be terminated to GIGABIT standard.

NewHillel

watty wrote: »

Maybe two days for combo Saorsat/Freesat.

But the suggestion that an electrician can do a distribution system without training even if the parts and schematic are specified is not sane.

We are on the same page.

thebullkf

watty wrote: »

No, there is no need for fibre IN the Home. Fibre to the Home yes.

what did you study, pedantics:rolleyes:

Really you have no idea.

thats quite the statement.

"RG6" as such nearly means nothing. There are many grades of RG6 like cable. Some are only good for indoor Cable TV. Some are good enough for Satellite. Some are suitable for external use and some not.

i know:rolleyes:

Do you know what bend radius and maximum "pull" force allowed for each RG6 grade?

after nearly 20 years installing voice,copper,data,and fibre optics and termination of same.
the answer is yes.

LV can be dangerous, though usually isn't. Drop a spanner on car battery or get metal watch strap caught between + (only 10V to 14V) and metal work

comparing car batteries to satellite cables???:rolleyes:

The major issues are quality and interference.

i agree, hence i'm a certified installer. you obviously are not.

I've worked with builders and Architects.

as have i

The cheapskates that don't bother with cavity insulation etc. give Electricians pretend coax, occasionally they might call it RG6.

agree. its what i said earlier.

]So screening of cable is very important as are suitable quality diplexers at both ends when sharing a cable between satellite IF and TV/Radio/CableTV/Broadband.

there are 3 criteria for sound installs.

1/quality cable.

2/proper install-end to end. no points of failure.

3/quality termination.

watty

Tony wrote: »

Not true in my experience

No, sparks install what they feel like in many cases, whatever is cheapest at the wholesalers in many cases


Then why does RG6 not appear on the CAI's approved list of cables?

Because there is NOT a single "RG6" product. There are suitable and unsuitable variants. They are NOT equal in loss, screening and corrosion.

The logical answer is to NOT include RG6. Unless you are UPC or Digiweb and know exactly what you are buying. It would be impossible without study of a catalogue and specs to know if a particular RG6 was suitable.

Thus unless you are buying a container from the factory and know exactly the spec you want, you do NOT specify RG6 for Satellite.
Sorry lads.

There is "real" RG6 that is metallised plastic, aluminium braid and steel copper plated core and outer that is porous to rain.

There is also "real" RG6 that is copper foil, dense copper braid, solid copper core and waterproof insulation. (a /U for "underground" is supposed to mean this but I have see RG6/U and RG213/U that definitely isn't!).

Avoid RG6.