Premier League weekend Thread

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

Did you ever think that a team needs a leader on the pitch? Did you ever wonder why a player is being left on the bench and somebody you don't think is as good is starting regularly?

This is something that fans never seem to understand. John Terry is a top defender, maybe an Alex/Carvahlo would have been better techically but leadership is a huge thing and its well known that John Terry is a great leader on the pitch.

I never doubted his leadership.
To be honest I'd say there's plenty of leaders in that squad, Lampard being a prime example.
The point I was making is that John Terry is a thug.
That's hard to dismiss when you look back at his career.

eagle eye

nullzero wrote: »

I never doubted his leadership.
To be honest I'd say there's plenty of leaders in that squad, Lampard being a prime example.
The point I was making is that John Terry is a thug.
That's hard to dismiss when you look back at his career.

I'd rather have the 'thug' John Terry than nearly any other defender I can think of in the Premier League in my first team week in week out. At the end of the day its about giving your team the best chance to win.

On Lamps, great player but he wasn't even third choice for England captain so its hard to imagine he is a big leader on the pitch.

MUSEIST

nullzero wrote: »

Are you a Chelsea fan by any chance?
I'm a United fan, and if I'm honest, when I see Gary Neville acting the maggot or flapping his lips I think to myself "what a muppet".

John Terry is a thug. Good defenders stop goals by staying within the rules.
He's got an awful track record with indiscipline and were he not England captain for the last while I'm sure he would have been sent off a lot more.
He should have been sent off today also, but he gets away with it.

Chelsea have a fantastic squad of really talented players, John Terry isn't one of them, they should have taken City's hands off when made that ludicrous offer for him last year.
Chelsea won the league well last year, but it was at times in spite of Terry not thanks to him.

sO jT is a thug and it was perfectly acceptable for n'zogbia to kick witout being a thug. Is rooney not a thug for cursing at officials and acting the maggot. Jt is a great defender, ok he does not have pace (like vidic or ferdinand or carragher) but he wins eveery header and is a leader. Not every good defender has to have pace.

pablodunlop

At least they're hopelessly optimistic

http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10429~2130221,00.html

Latics unlucky not to come away with result after brave performance

Raskolnikov

Wigan were awful and James McCarthy did not cover himself in glory in that performance.

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd rather have the 'thug' John Terry than nearly any other defender I can think of in the Premier League in my first team week in week out. At the end of the day its about giving your team the best chance to win.

On Lamps, great player but he wasn't even third choice for England captain so its hard to imagine he is a big leader on the pitch.

Last season John Terry was guilty of more defensive mistakes than any other Chelsea player, lot's of pundits were scathing of his performances and he's a long way from being the top defender in the division.

As for Lampard not being a leader based on being third choice as captain for England? What sort of outlandish statement is that?
He's always done brilliantly for Chelsea when JT isn't around (due to injuries or suspension), he's a million times the player JT is and he's a fine leader on the pitch.

eagle eye

nullzero wrote: »

Last season John Terry was guilty of more defensive mistakes than any other Chelsea player, lot's of pundits were scathing of his performances and he's a long way from being the top defender in the division.

As for Lampard not being a leader based on being third choice as captain for England? What sort of outlandish statement is that?
He's always done brilliantly for Chelsea when JT isn't around (due to injuries or suspension), he's a million times the player JT is and he's a fine leader on the pitch.

Read what I said again, he wasn't even third choice as England captain. And when you read it make sure you read the bit where I praise Frank Lampard as a footballer too.

What would you consider Roy Keane? A thug maybe? but a great captain?
What about Steve Bruce? Something similar?

Look at the great Liverpool teams. Tommy Smith, Emlyn Hughes, Phil Thompson were all hard men, they would be called thugs in today's game too.

Thats the type of lad that makes a great captain.

Raedwald

everdead.ie wrote: »

3pm Saturday
Arsenal V Blackpool HOME
Birmingham V Blackburn HOME
Everton V Wolves DRAW
Stoke V Tottenham AWAY
West Brom V Sunderland DRAW
West Ham V Bolton AWAY

5:15pm Sky Sports 2
Wigan V Chelsea AWAY

Sunday
1:30pm Newcastle V Villa HOME
4pm Fulham V Man Utd DRAW

Monday
8pm Man City V Liverpool DRAW

Fair play everdead.ie, 6 out of 7 right is excellent.

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

Read what I said again, he wasn't even third choice as England captain. And when you read it make sure you read the bit where I praise Frank Lampard as a footballer too.

What would you consider Roy Keane? A thug maybe? but a great captain?
What about Steve Bruce? Something similar?

Look at the great Liverpool teams. Tommy Smith, Emlyn Hughes, Phil Thompson were all hard men, they would be called thugs in today's game too.

Thats the type of lad that makes a great captain.

Did you read my earlier post ergarding Roy Keane?
Your statement about Lampard made no sense. Just because he's third choice captain for England doesn't mean he isn't capable of leading his club, or any team for that matter.

As for all those other players you listed, yes they were tough b@stards, but they were also decent players if not fantastic players. John Terry has been on the decline as a player for the past two seasons at least. Chelsea have a great squad, and yes he's a talismanic person in that team, he is not however the best defender in the league, he's probably the worst defender at Chelsea.
Regardless of the era those other players played in, they were good footballers, John Terry doesn't fit into that bracket, he's limited in his abilities, and some of his challenges would be over the top by the standards of any era of the game.

Again, Roy Keane was a great captain, leader and footballer. He was also a thuggish individual, who as we know now has some deep rooted psychological issues.
As much as I loved Roy Keane the die hard winner and amazing captain, I would never had said his behaviour was always exemplary. He got up to some awful crap over the years and he was rightly punished for it. Just because a tough player is your clubs captain doesn't mean you should defend the inexcusable actions they commit.

eagle eye

nullzero wrote: »

Did you read my earlier post ergarding Roy Keane?
Your statement about Lampard made no sense. Just because he's third choice captain for England doesn't mean he isn't capable of leading his club, or any team for that matter.

As for all those other players you listed, yes they were tough b@stards, but they were also decent players if not fantastic players. John Terry has been on the decline as a player for the past two seasons at least. Chelsea have a great squad, and yes he's a talismanic person in that team, he is not however the best defender in the league, he's probably the worst defender at Chelsea.
Regardless of the era those other players played in, they were good footballers, John Terry doesn't fit into that bracket, he's limited in his abilities, and some of his challenges would be over the top by the standards of any era of the game.

Again, Roy Keane was a great captain, leader and footballer. He was also a thuggish individual, who as we know now has some deep rooted psychological issues.
As much as I loved Roy Keane the die hard winner and amazing captain, I would never had said his behaviour was always exemplary. He got up to some awful crap over the years and he was rightly punished for it. Just because a tough player is your clubs captain doesn't mean you should defend the inexcusable actions they commit.

Well I'm not a Chelsea fan and again, Frank Lampard was not even third choice for England, I'll say it again he was not third choice.

And you have got to be joking when you say that John Terry is not in the bracket with players like Phil Thompson, Steve Bruce, Tommy Smith and Emlyn Hughes. They were all good players but what made them outstanding was their leadership qualites just like John Terry.

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I'm not a Chelsea fan and again, Frank Lampard was not even third choice for England, I'll say it again he was not third choice.

And you have got to be joking when you say that John Terry is not in the bracket with players like Phil Thompson, Steve Bruce, Tommy Smith and Emlyn Hughes. They were all good players but what made them outstanding was their leadership qualites just like John Terry.

That Lampard comment just gets more daft every time you repeat it.
I don't see how Frank Lampard is devoid of and leadership qualities because he was third choice for england captain, that makes no sense. Surely by your logic he is at least the second most affective leader in the Chelsea squad?

As for Terry's abilities, he's not half the player of any of the others you mentioned. Yes he's Chelsea's talisman in some respects, but he's not a technically proficient footballer at least not at the top level of the game where his limited abilities are put uner scrutiny. Only somebody who has little to no knowledge of the game would make the statements you made.

doc_17

8 days into the season and there are three 6-0 victories already. The standard of the PL is going down radically. The teams coming up now aren't even really trying. They are taking the cash and fully expecting to go down but they don't care care cos they get parachute payments. I don't really blame them for this. It's what the PL has become.

And apart from the promoted teams you have the likes of Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan etc who if they were playing in your back garden you wouldn't go out and watch it cos it really is dung and seems to be getting dungier.

Is anyone really excited about another Man U Chelsea title race? Well apart from their own fans.

eagle eye

nullzero wrote: »

That Lampard comment just gets more daft every time you repeat it.
I don't see how Frank Lampard is devoid of and leadership qualities because he was third choice for england captain, that makes no sense. Surely by your logic he is at least the second most affective leader in the Chelsea squad?
Terry was first choice, Ferdinand was second choice, Gerrard was third choice. Now do you understand what I'm saying.
As for Terry's abilities, he's not half the player of any of the others you mentioned. Yes he's Chelsea's talisman in some respects, but he's not a technically proficient footballer at least not at the top level of the game where his limited abilities are put uner scrutiny. Only somebody who has little to no knowledge of the game would make the statements you made.

You are the one that doesn't understand. He is a very good defender and a great leader. His leadership qualities are huge.

Phil Thompson, Tommy Smith, Steve Bruce and Emlyn Hughes all had quirks in their game but they got by and started even with those problems for the simple reason that they were great leaders.

Chelsea won the league last year, they currently have two clean sheets so far this season. Why on earth would you take the captain out of a team like that? Yes he gets lucky from time to time with yellow cards but then again he gets unlucky sometimes too, like when he was sent off against City for being last man back which he wasn't.

I'm no fan of John Terry but as far as on the pitch goes he is the man to have leading your defense and your team and any club manager would give his right arm for a player like that. Last year he had a bad patch but considering the treatment he was getting from fans at every ground he visited I'm surprised he lasted so long before his form dipped and even then he did get back to his best at the very end of the season. Thats a true mark of a man with great determination and leadership qualities.

eagle eye

doc_17 wrote: »

8 days into the season and there are three 6-0 victories already. The standard of the PL is going down radically. The teams coming up now aren't even really trying. They are taking the cash and fully expecting to go down but they don't care care cos they get parachute payments. I don't really blame them for this. It's what the PL has become.

And apart from the promoted teams you have the likes of Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan etc who if they were playing in your back garden you wouldn't go out and watch it cos it really is dung and seems to be getting dungier.

Is anyone really excited about another Man U Chelsea title race? Well apart from their own fans.

Thanks for insulting my team there. I'm a Rovers fan and I'm proud of the football we play. Have a look at Match of the Day and watch the highlights, we were seriously unlucky today but you couldn't call our football boring.

doc_17

eagle eye wrote: »

Thanks for insulting my team there. I'm a Rovers fan and I'm proud of the football we play. Have a look at Match of the Day and watch the highlights, we were seriously unlucky today but you couldn't call our football boring.

Sorry! I'm a liverpool fan and we don't exactly set the world on fire either. Big Sam will always playa certain way and I'm not a fan. Don't mean to insult anyones team but it isn't good for the league. liam Brady has actually just started talking about it as well on the highlights show..

doc_17

And why the hell does Owen Coyle say "at the football club"?

Raedwald

With the regards the three 6-0 games, two of them were against newly promoted teams by two of the premier league big boys. Every game like that always has the potential to happen, some times it does and sometimes it doesn't.

The third one was against a team that got spanked 4-0 against by Blackpool,a team on their league debut and the writing was on the wall ahead of the wigan game today after that result last week.

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

You are the one that doesn't understand. He is a very good defender and a great leader. His leadership qualities are huge.

Phil Thompson, Tommy Smith, Steve Bruce and Emlyn Hughes all had quirks in their game but they got by and started even with those problems for the simple reason that they were great leaders.

Chelsea won the league last year, they currently have two clean sheets so far this season. Why on earth would you take the captain out of a team like that? Yes he gets lucky from time to time with yellow cards but then again he gets unlucky sometimes too, like when he was sent off against City for being last man back which he wasn't.

I'm no fan of John Terry but as far as on the pitch goes he is the man to have leading your defense and your team and any club manager would give his right arm for a player like that. Last year he had a bad patch but considering the treatment he was getting from fans at every ground he visited I'm surprised he lasted so long before his form dipped and even then he did get back to his best at the very end of the season. Thats a true mark of a man with great determination and leadership qualities.

Terry's form was poor a long time before the scandal last year, that argument is redundant I'm afraid.

He's not a top class defender, you're the one saying that there's no one else the league as good as him, clearly untrue.
He has decent leadership qualities he's not one of the great captains, he's not a Roy Keane or a Patrick Viera etc... He's the one who threw the champions league away for Chelsea, he had the guts to take the penalty, but not the ability to even get the shot on target.
He also showed his true nature at the world cup when he tried to lead a rebellion against Capello.
He's a reprehensible character who has limited ability as a player, who if he played for a smaller club could possibly be seen in the same way Titus Bramble is. He was at his peak a decent defender, right now he's an accident waiting to happen and when Chelsea meet a tough challenge (which wont be for a while) he will most probably once again be the one that lets them down.

Mr. Guappa

Raedwald wrote: »

With the regards the three 6-0 games, two of them were against newly promoted teams by two of the premier league big boys. Every game like that always has the potential to happen, some times it does and sometimes it doesn't.

The third one was against a team that got spanked 4-0 against by Blackpool,a team on their league debut and the writing was on the wall ahead of the wigan game today after that result last week.

Could we see a 10, 11 or even 12-0 result this season??

Chelsea have two 6-0 results already without playing to their maximum. Arsenal won 6-0 today while missing a number of other great chances.

There are a few teams who would be candidates for such a thumping: Wigan and Blackpool being the main ones.

eagle eye

nullzero wrote: »

Terry's form was poor a long time before the scandal last year, that argument is redundant I'm afraid.

He's not a top class defender, you're the one saying that there's no one else the league as good as him, clearly untrue.

I never said that there was nobody in the league as good as him. There are some far better defenders than him but when you add his leadership skills to his ability he is an automatic first choice. The type of player every manager wants.
Vidic is the best centre back in the league imo and miles ahead of anybody else.

nullzero wrote: »

He has decent leadership qualities he's not one of the great captains, he's not a Roy Keane or a Patrick Viera etc... He's the one who threw the champions league away for Chelsea, he had the guts to take the penalty, but not the ability to even get the shot on target.
He also showed his true nature at the world cup when he tried to lead a rebellion against Capello.

As far as leadership goes he is every bit as good as Roy Keane was. Keane just happened to be an outstanding world class midfielder too.

nullzero wrote: »

He's a reprehensible character who has limited ability as a player, who if he played for a smaller club could possibly be seen in the same way Titus Bramble is. He was at his peak a decent defender, right now he's an accident waiting to happen and when Chelsea meet a tough challenge (which wont be for a while) he will most probably once again be the one that lets them down.

He doesn't have limited ability as a player. You really have a bias/hate towards John Terry that is shining through now. Its ridiculous to compare him to Titus Bramble. The man is a top notch defender, technically he is not as good as some others but overall when you include leadership he is a must start at any club in England.

nullzero

eagle eye wrote: »

I never said that there was nobody in the league as good as him. There are some far better defenders than him but when you add his leadership skills to his ability he is an automatic first choice. The type of player every manager wants.
Vidic is the best centre back in the league imo and miles ahead of anybody else.

As far as leadership goes he is every bit as good as Roy Keane was. Keane just happened to be an outstanding world class midfielder too.

He doesn't have limited ability as a player. You really have a bias/hate towards John Terry that is shining through now. Its ridiculous to compare him to Titus Bramble. The man is a top notch defender, technically he is not as good as some others but overall when you include leadership he is a must start at any club in England.

I am biased against Terry, but only because he's a limited player, who is guitly of some awful behaviour. I don't like a lot of players, but if they have the talent I'll admit their strengths. Terry is a weak link for Chelsea, it's not appearant against bad sides, but he is disimproving. His discispline is as bad as ever. At 3-0 up today he was on a yellow and thought it was the right time to go looking to get his own back against N'zogbia (who's earlier tackle was disgraceful also).
There's plenty of managers who'd hate to have a player like Terry, look at the disrespect he showed to Capello during the world cup for instance. He has a reputation for turning on coaches, and whilst he is a strong character I feel he is often more of a detriment to his club than anything else.

Clearly we're not going to agree on this, and there's plenty of people who'll share either view of the man. Perhaps we should simply agree to disagree.

dreamers75

Wow terry does a Keane on inzomnia.

Nasty nasty player.

Peyton Manning

eagle eye wrote: »

He doesn't have limited ability as a player. You really have a bias/hate towards John Terry that is shining through now. Its ridiculous to compare him to Titus Bramble. The man is a top notch defender, technically he is not as good as some others but overall when you include leadership he is a must start at any club in England.

Not sure about this. Sure, he shows some leadership skills, but I think you're overestimating them fiercely. It's easy to think Terry is a great leader when his teammates are banging in 6 goals every week, but put him any other team outside the top 5 or 6 and you'll see how far being a good leader gets him.

Pepe LeFrits

dreamers75 wrote: »

Wow terry does a Keane on inzomnia.

Nasty nasty player.

Worse than the one on Milner in April?

OPENROAD

Stoke robbed, should replay the match imo

eagle eye

Archimedes wrote: »

Not sure about this. Sure, he shows some leadership skills, but I think you're overestimating them fiercely. It's easy to think Terry is a great leader when his teammates are banging in 6 goals every week, but put him any other team outside the top 5 or 6 and you'll see how far being a good leader gets him.

If and ands Archie, what I can I say?
So then you would say the same about all the other players I mentioned too?

They were all the same types with the exception of Keane who was one of the best in the world in his position.

There are even players at clubs outside the top six who are leaders who keep getting into the team because of that quality. Ryan Nelsen at Rovers is a big example of that, he is slow and not as good technically as Gael Givet or Phil Jones but he is still picked ahead of them. Phil Neville at Everton is picked ahead of Hibbert and young Coleman for the same reason.

OPENROAD

Just been watching MOTD, Arteta can play for England now, wonder if he will get a call up, would be a good move for them.

grenache

Delighted West Brom won today....they play football as it should be played. Excited at seeing Graham Dorrans finally strutting his stuff in the Premier, that new guy from Nigeria looks a half decent signing for them.

everdead.ie

OPENROAD wrote: »

Stoke robbed, should replay the match imo

Actually on the replay Harry's right should of been a free out so justice really happy out

eagle eye

everdead.ie wrote: »

Actually on the replay Harry's right should of been a free out so justice really happy out

Yeah but there should have been a penalty earlier when Gomes fouled one of the Stoke forwards.

Missing fouls is one thing, it happens regularly in a crowded box but there was no excuse for missing that goal.

everdead.ie

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but there should have been a penalty earlier when Gomes fouled one of the Stoke forwards.

Missing fouls is one thing, it happens regularly in a crowded box but there was no excuse for missing that goal.

Didn't see any penalty to be honest (not saying there wasn't but have no idea when this was your talking about)

eagle eye

everdead.ie wrote: »

Didn't see any penalty to be honest (not saying there wasn't but have no idea when this was your talking about)

I have no idea either what time of the match it was. Just watching the highlights on BBC and seen Gomes clearly shoving a Stoke player to the ground.

everdead.ie

eagle eye wrote: »

I have no idea either what time of the match it was. Just watching the highlights on BBC and seen Gomes clearly shoving a Stoke player to the ground.

Ah no worries I promise not to complain:P

monkey9

Last week, Joe Cole was ridiculously sent off. I said at the time that if he gets sent off for that, you'd have a load of sending offs in every game.

So, going by the standard of Anfield last week, Paul Scholes should have been sent off against Newcastle. John Terry should have been sent off today against Wigan. Guedioura should have received the red for his tackle that led to the Wolves goal.

But they weren't playing against Arsenal, i suppose. :rolleyes:

OPENROAD

monkey9 wrote: »

Last week, Joe Cole was ridiculously sent off. I said at the time that if he gets sent off for that, you'd have a load of sending offs in every game.

So, going by the standard of Anfield last week, Paul Scholes should have been sent off against Newcastle. John Terry should have been sent off today against Wigan. Guedioura should have received the red for his tackle that led to the Wolves goal.

But they weren't playing against Arsenal, i suppose. :rolleyes:

Arsenal have been on the wrong end of inconsistent decisions many times, happens every season, sometimes you get them sometimes you don't.

mike65

Rooney is out of todays game with a bug. He is having no luck at all. Fulham have a chance.

ShoulderChip

I quite fancy fulham today, hopefully the will get a draw at least,

will be a tough game for united

LuckyLloyd

nullzero wrote: »

Just because a tough player is your clubs captain doesn't mean you should defend the inexcusable actions they commit.

I'd agree with that, and I'd broaden it to include all of the players at your club and all their actions when they're on the clock as footballers (what they get up to off the pitch doesn't interest me all that much).

Where I'd disagree with you though, is in the desire people have to point out the faults of other team's players in the first place when they know damn well that their own boys are likely the same in many respects. It's good that you've gone 'but I know player X, Y and Z who is a Utd legend was also less than angelic', but it would be better if you didn't start the conversation in the first place!

All teams and players will cheat, dive and foul from time to time to get an advantage. All teams score some goals a season that are lucky, badly officiated, products of ugly football. All managers need glasses when it comes to the bad behaviour of their own players. And all sets of fans struggle to find through objectivity when the subject is their own football club.

Most of all though, all discussions like the one in this thread are utterly pointless.

LuckyLloyd

Now, I'm all for giving managers time, and hate the idea that two or three defeats in a row is a "crisis" on any level. However, having watched Wigan the past two weeks, you have to wonder about Martinez. The Arsenal game towards the end of last season was a brilliant result and performance, and they looked like they could maybe push on a little bit and be more consistent and comfortable in terms of performances and league positions.

But the first two games have been simply woeful. No - one is playing up to what you would think they're capable of at the moment (McCarthy the big case in point for us lot looking on); you get the feeling that once the first is conceded they resign themselves to defeat; and the whole thing is lacking any sense of cohesion or ability to execute simple situations competently. Whatever has gone on during pre season has simply not been good enough.

They play Hartlepool away in the League Cup during the week, and I think he probably needs to play what he perceives is his best eleven and hope that they get a confidence building result. Because next weekend is away at Roflham Lolspurs and they have the attacking pieces to tear Wigan open again if things continue as they are.

If they're still on zero points after Sunderland at home, it might be correct to give the likes of Curbishley a shout...

nullzero

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd agree with that, and I'd broaden it to include all of the players at your club and all their actions when they're on the clock as footballers (what they get up to off the pitch doesn't interest me all that much).

Where I'd disagree with you though, is in the desire people have to point out the faults of other team's players in the first place when they know damn well that their own boys are likely the same in many respects. It's good that you've gone 'but I know player X, Y and Z who is a Utd legend was also less than angelic', but it would be better if you didn't start the conversation in the first place!

All teams and players will cheat, dive and foul from time to time to get an advantage. All teams score some goals a season that are lucky, badly officiated, products of ugly football. All managers need glasses when it comes to the bad behaviour of their own players. And all sets of fans struggle to find through objectivity when the subject is their own football club.

Most of all though, all discussions like the one in this thread are utterly pointless.

I agree that the discussion was kind of pointless, but then again this is a discussion forum so if people didn't have discussions it would be a bit redundant wouldn't it? Your opinion is that the discussion in question was pointless, as well founded as that opinion may be, it's still just one opinion. If it's dragging things off topic the mods would have let us know.

As for the behaviour of footballers being broadly the same, I'd agree, I do however feel that John Terry is a particularly unusual case. When you look back at his actions over the years he has gone above and beyond what should be acceptable, even in an age of less than amazingly good behaviour on the pitch over all.
This is the guy who got away completely unpunished from rugby tackling a fellow professional (JO at Man City), a thing I've never seen on a pitch before. He also refered to Ledley King (his international team mate) as a "monkey". The guy is a bad egg, that he stands out amongst other bad eggs is an indication of just how bad he is I would have thought.