Forum off topic and chat threads

Tragedy

Just wondering if the increasing prevalence of these on each and every forum has been debated before?
I've noticed over the last two years that less and less users are 'Boards' users, where they post in many forums and more and more people just stick to one or two forums and post nowhere but there.

I don't know if AH becoming it's own community helped spur this on(because god knows, I don't want to post on AH now) or if AH became it's own community because of this.

Either way, it's a bit **** that every forum is it's own little community and the only boards-wide community seems to be the moderators(who don't get on with users and vice versa).

Eliot Rosewater

Given the sheer size of Boards in recent years it's impossible that the site-wide community could ever be remotely as tight-knit as the individual sub-communities. A community really relies on familiarity between members, and there's simply too many members to be familiar with! Opening up the front page, I merely recognise eight of the fifty or so posters and I only know two of them.

In this way, the growth of sub-communities is understandable and I, for one, don't see a problem with them. Members of a sub-community will have something in common be it a shared university (UCC forum), a shared interest (Animal & Pet issues) or a shared wackiness (Vegan & Vegetarian forum ). One could argue that these tight sub-communities are actually better than a tight site-wide community as the members will at least be in someway alike.


But anyway, I ramble. I notice that you haven't given any reasons as to why this "fracturing" is bad. Perhaps if you did it would spur on the discussion some more. The sound of my own voice only motivates me for so long.

The Recliner

Tragedy wrote: »

and the only boards-wide community seems to be the moderators(who don't get on with users and vice versa).

I dunno, I like to think I get on with most users bar some who I have banned

Wibbs

The Recliner wrote: »

I dunno, I like to think I get on with most users bar some who I have banned

+1. I'd get on pretty equally with both mods and users that I deal with. In fact I'd have slightly more frictions with some other mods(and they with me) than with users TBH. Mods are defo not a homogenous group.

I take Tragedy's point. There's been a little bit of a shift towards having off topic threads in the more social forums.(even if they're not strictly "social" forums). I think that's natural though. I've rarely seen a forum outside of boards, even a highly specialised forum where there isnt a chinwag thread. Again natural enough. People who chat to each other on topic in threads or who share a common interest in the first place are gonna want to form social bonds too. Plus when RL beers and get togethers come up that increases those bonds even more.

I do agree there can be the danger of cliques forming(:eek: Yes you read it right, I said the word ). I would talk to the wall and sometimes even I could see why others may be put off. IMHO though its more often the perception of cliques, where none may actually exist. I have found with only one or two exceptions in my time here that it was only a perception. Still perception is everything.

We saw that in one of "my" own forums the Ladies Lounge, where the OT thread was felt by many to be getting that way. Including users who would have part of the percieved clique. So it was decided that a user group would take over that function and the main forum thread would close. It's been successful too, thanks in no small part to users getting said user group up and running.

IMHO Too often we think of mods/users. We're all users or should be. No better than each other. I can think of many many users who are better content generators and assets to this site than even a few mods. The second I feel "I love my banhammer" bollocks kicks in I'd be gone TBH. It's a community. A pretty damn good one too. I've seen and heard of really fcuking good things to come out of it. I've seen posters in AH talk about how big their willy was:D and a post later in PI give really good measured advice to someone reaching out. Ive even known true RL help been given. There are a helluva lot of good people on here. Yes there's the odd bad egg, but even there Ive been happily surprised by so called muppets down the line.

Basically while Boards has built and continues to build the foundations for the community, we're all part of it and we can change the parts that make things better, together. Maybe the notion of OT threads in various forums could be replaced by public usergroups on a forum by forum basis? With a stickied link to such?

Sarky

Curmudgeonly semi-rant:

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of these groups are getting too tight-knit. I think "isolationist" might be the word I'm looking for. There's not a thing in the world wrong with a close group of people, but, well, I dunno, a lot of the places I'd lurk just don't seem terribly welcoming to "outsiders". Oh, the C word was used while I was typing this. Cliques. There we are. There's no getting rid of them, but do we really want a discussion website entirely composed of them, each not talking to the other? It sounds awfully dull to me.

It probably does have something to do with those chat threads. They're horrible things, as far as I'm concerned, eyesores at the top of every page. Any interesting content is usually drowned in an ocean of "hello" "how are you" "I am sad and here is why" "goodbye" one-liners that no moderator would enjoy leafing through, and indeed don't bother, relying instead on reported posts, which is hardly perfect. I'd happily get rid of them all if I could, that stuff is why AIM and Skype and Google Chat were invented.

Ultimately it's down to user behaviour. So all of you: Mix it up a little, for Christ's sake. Dip into other fora, think about what you post, discuss more, meet new people. Do something different every once in a while. Because otherwise what is the point?

The Recliner

Sarky wrote: »

So all of you: Mix it up a little, for Christ's sake. Dip into other fora, think about what you post, discuss more, meet new people. Do something different every once in a while. And wear Sunscreen!

...

Tragedy

Sorry for the long post, tried to cut multiquote down a bit

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Given the sheer size of Boards in recent years it's impossible that the site-wide community could ever be remotely as tight-knit as the individual sub-communities. A community really relies on familiarity between members, and there's simply too many members to be familiar with! Opening up the front page, I merely recognise eight of the fifty or so posters and I only know two of them.

Do online communities really rely on shared familiarity? I thought it was shared interests rather than familiarity(after all, I can be familiar with someone I despise and wish they'd DIAF).
And shared interests isn't the same thing as familiarity. Shared interests is posting on After Hours, Rugby, Commuting & Transport and The Gentlemans Club.
Shared familiarity is just posting to TLL. Or just posting to The Noc Forum, etc etc. Shared familiarity is insular and exclusive, shared interests isn't.

One could argue that these tight sub-communities are actually better than a tight site-wide community as the members will at least be in someway alike.

I wouldn't argue that you need any sort of tight site-wide community, you just need a site wide community where members in general will post in many forums that interest them.
I would argue that if the current trend continues, you won't have boards.ie - you'll just have various forums and users who don't connect or mix in any way - and that route leads to a dead site that will attract less users imho!
Also, the problem with tight sub-communities is when for whatever reason, they cease, a large proportion of the users in them seem to stop posting and don't continue posting elsewhere.

But anyway, I ramble. I notice that you haven't given any reasons as to why this "fracturing" is bad. Perhaps if you did it would spur on the discussion some more. The sound of my own voice only motivates me for so long.

Because it's boring.
Each forum is turning into a big group MSN conversation, forums are insular and cliquey, you have to 'belong' and if you don't, people aren't interested. Plus, increasingly, the mods seem to be buying into the insular cliqueyness.

RopeDrink wrote: »

10 years later the place is so huge that it'd be literally impossible to keep tabs on a large number of Forums unless you live in a basement, get fed on your porto-potty and actually enjoy spending 12hrs a day reading/posting which, I hope, form the extreme minority if any.

I keep tabs on 3 large forums daily, and check 5 or 6 smaller ones twice a week for interesting topics. Doesn't take long at all!

As much as some people may not like the tight-knit nature thats forming, it's somewhat normal for it to happen given people often only have certain interest in X number of Forums and there are just so many of them that people will eventually fall into visiting but a mere portion of the website as a whole, gelling said communities.

I don't see how it's normal or inevitable. Up until TLL/Noc Forum, I didn't see this occuring and boards hasn't grown THAT much since then. BGRH managed the social forum without having a cliquey sub-community, and as a result had the biggest meet-ups outside boards wide beers(and better than those on a couple of occasions too!).

Moderators don't get on with Users and vice versa? What?

Have you missed the last year of bitching and hissyfits? :pac:

Is it worth even throwing out the age old "Moderators are Users, too?"

Not since the mod forums they haven't been!

I take Tragedy's point. There's been a little bit of a shift towards having off topic threads in the more social forums.(even if they're not strictly "social" forums). I think that's natural though. I've rarely seen a forum outside of boards, even a highly specialised forum where there isnt a chinwag thread.

Generally, forums I read have an off-topic forum, rather than an off-topic thread in each forum. But I'll admit, I read less forums than I used to.

Again natural enough. People who chat to each other on topic in threads or who share a common interest in the first place are gonna want to form social bonds too. Plus when RL beers and get togethers come up that increases those bonds even more.

Sure that's what MSN/facebook/etc is for, surely?

Basically while Boards has built and continues to build the foundations for the community, we're all part of it and we can change the parts that make things better, together. Maybe the notion of OT threads in various forums could be replaced by public usergroups on a forum by forum basis? With a stickied link to such?

Is it necessary for every forum to form a community though?
Can't people talk sport on a sports forum, politics on the politics forum, and general chit chat on the AH forum? Why do they need to be discussed on every forum?

Wibbs

Tragedy wrote: »

Do online communities really rely on shared familiarity? I thought it was shared interests rather than familiarity

It can be both and IMHO should be. Its the balance that's everything.

I wouldn't argue that you need any sort of tight site-wide community, you just need a site wide community where members in general will post in many forums that interest them.

Which is what pretty much happens already. Just because of the size people don't nor couldnt post all over the place(and I for one get around). Even if true, some people just want to post in one forum. I dunno, lets say some of the Cycling lads. They have no interest in posting elsewhere. They may read the odd bit, but bikes and training and a lycra fetish(you know who you are ya overly fit shaven legged freaks ) is their gig. Personally I don't see the problem with that.

I would argue that if the current trend continues, you won't have boards.ie - you'll just have various forums and users who don't connect or mix in any way - and that route leads to a dead site that will attract less users imho!

Oh I've though similar in the past myself. Was agin the loss of the sitewide beers. I was wrong. It's grown since that time. On an average weekend there's at least one forum beers or get togethers going on. Its comes with the size of the place. Now it may well bring its own issues, but we're all big and ugly enough t be able to deal with them IMH.

Also, the problem with tight sub-communities is when for whatever reason, they cease, a large proportion of the users in them seem to stop posting and don't continue posting elsewhere.

Yea that can happen alright, but others spring up in its place. The individual organism may die but the species continues... or something

Because it's boring.
Each forum is turning into a big group MSN conversation, forums are insular and cliquey, you have to 'belong' and if you don't, people aren't interested.

You think? Out of all the forums Ive trawled(or is that trolled) I've seen that few enough times TBH and I'm a sensitive soul.

Plus, increasingly, the mods seem to be buying into the insular cliqueyness.

Really? That's not so good if true. But could it just be a perception thing? Most mods Ive noticed tend to be way more on you and Sarky's way of thinking. That OT threads are a glorious pain in the bum and frivolous. From a moderation point of view they defo can be. I used to mod PI and though many other mods used to say that must be a nightmare, IMHO it was my best "fit" and actually the easiest gig Ive had(beyond time invested). Among other things we didnt have the OT stuff. Or the social stuff. It was very cut and dried and frivolity was naturally at a minimum. So that's why I'm surprised you think mods are actively getting into this.

I keep tabs on 3 large forums daily, and check 5 or 6 smaller ones twice a week for interesting topics. Doesn't take long at all!

As do I, probably moreso and post in them too. That said I'm an knowitall longwinded cnut who types fast. I would also reckon that Ropedrinks take may be coloured by the fact he is a mod, so the overhead can be high(and he has a load of forums to keep tabs on).

I don't see how it's normal or inevitable. Up until TLL/Noc Forum, I didn't see this occuring and boards hasn't grown THAT much since then. BGRH managed the social forum without having a cliquey sub-community, and as a result had the biggest meet-ups outside boards wide beers(and better than those on a couple of occasions too!).

Yep they did. Even let hirsute scrawny people in. Even brotherettes(thin end of the bacon wedge. *Haaaarumph!*). Even a brotherette runing the place(thick end of the bacon wedge *Scowl*). TBH their example is probably the best way to mix the social thang in. I've seen other forums do pretty similar though.

Have you missed the last year of bitching and hissyfits? :pac:

No(queen bitch here) and if you take that example, the bitching and hissyfits were more between the mods than users. Which PITA though it was and is at times, should if nothing else, put paid to the notion of a "mod clique" from the users point of view. Cos there really isnt one. IMHO If that's all it did the crapola was worth it. Though even after all of that people seem to think there is one which is a pity.

Not since the mod forums they haven't been!

Was that not pretty much always in play though? It was when I ended up getting modded and that's in 07 I AFAIR?

Is it necessary for every forum to form a community though?
Can't people talk sport on a sports forum, politics on the politics forum, and general chit chat on the AH forum? Why do they need to be discussed on every forum?

Just speaking personally outa my [insert orifice here]? I would go the more organic route on this. Go with the flow, rather than try to make water run uphill. People are social animals as well as intellectual ones. BGRH and others have shown how that can work very well. If you get the balance right. I think the Public usergroups are underused. Again just shooting the breeze here, I would reduce the private forums and OT threads on the main forums and utilise the public usergroups for that stuff. tLL have done so successfully and it was a user who set it up and users who made it work. No mods required. I've seen one usergroup which could have been very messy work pretty much bang on the money of not being a dick and it had no moderation at all. So if it can be done in extremis, then I can't see why it can't for the chatty stuff.

And that good Sir is how you apologise for a long multiquoted thread.

Doctor DooM

I mod one of those ot threads and I also am quite happily posting away in other forums.

I also see many of the users of this thread, past and present, all over boards, and it gives me a little thrill when I see someone who got their first experience of boards in our forum.

The isolationist thing is a stereotype.


YES, some people don't explore outside of the forums they like. But tbh they won't with or without the existence of an OT thread. Fighting Games doesn't have an OT thread and I could point to about 5 users I know there who won't. They're here for the fighting games, end of. Who are we to tell them they HAVE to explore?

CLIQUEY CLIQUEY CLIQUE CLIQUE.

Cliques exist.

Cliques exist in every forum.

They're not by necessity bad.

They're called "friends".

I, nor any mod, nor any user or admin imo, has any right to tell people not to share in jokes or develop their own little memes or anything which is human nature.

If the clique gets to the point where it is preventing new people from entering the forum, then it is time to look at and explore a way to make a place more friendly- but the clique bogeyman puts unreasonable expectations on human nature tbh.

Tragedy

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The isolationist thing is a stereotype.

Being a stereotype doesn't mean it's untrue

YES, some people don't explore outside of the forums they like. But tbh they won't with or without the existence of an OT thread.

I never disagreed with that, some users only have one interest on boards.ie and that'll never change.

Fighting Games doesn't have an OT thread and I could point to about 5 users I know there who won't. They're here for the fighting games, end of. Who are we to tell them they HAVE to explore?

Who was saying they had to?

I, nor any mod, nor any user or admin imo, has any right to tell people not to share in jokes or develop their own little memes or anything which is human nature.

I don't recall anyone arguing about that either?

If the clique gets to the point where it is preventing new people from entering the forum, then it is time to look at and explore a way to make a place more friendly- but the clique bogeyman puts unreasonable expectations on human nature tbh.

Again, not really what the thread is about.

AckwelFoley

Im a creature of habit. I like what i like and i do what i like.

I post in AH, Construction and planning, feeback and regional forums.. other than that.. i only post in other forums to get an answer to a question.


I dont see the difficulty in that,people are different to me and they will go to boards to visit forums that are specific to their interests.

Dont hate me. Hate human behaviour.

Doctor DooM

Tragedy wrote: »

Being a stereotype doesn't mean it's untrue



I never disagreed with that, some users only have one interest on boards.ie and that'll never change.


Who was saying they had to?




I don't recall anyone arguing about that either?


Again, not really what the thread is about.

My apologies, forgot to quote, that's in response to Sarky, not you.


EDIT: In direct relation to your question, I would think the death of the site wide beers etc has had way more effect on me interacting less with other forums I wouldn't usually than OT threads. I have no interaction with a forum unless for some reason I delibrately decide to visit now, whereas back in the day you'd talk to the mod or whatever in the thread and then sometimes pop over.

Sarky

We seem to be mostly on the same page here, Doomy. I'm not opposed to tight-knit groups of friends at all, I'm in plenty myself. Like I said, there's not a thing wrong with it.


It's just this bit that bothers me:

Doctor DooM wrote: »

If the clique gets to the point where it is preventing new people from entering the forum, then it is time to look at and explore a way to make a place more friendly- but the clique bogeyman puts unreasonable expectations on human nature tbh.

We've both said as much, we obviously agree on it. I suspect all we differ on here is the degree to which it's happening or has happened, and our takes on human nature, which I dare say is only tangentially relevant to this thread so I'll spare you all what I think about that.

I'm sure it's not intentional. It might even be due to good intentions. Something like this is hard to nail down by its nature. Just, as you said, human nature. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be watched for and controlled if and when necessary. There's a lot of human nature that needs someone to occasionally put the boot in and shout "Hey! Cut that sh*t out!"