Irish Army 1980's service pistol

Ponster

For some reason my Google skills are poor tonight so I thought I'd ask here.

I remember when I was about 11 in the early 80's finding my fathers service pistol hidden in a shelf in my bedroom (idiotic place to have hidden it).

I'm interested in finding out what model it was so is there anything I can tell you so I can pin down the make/model ?

Thanks !

punchdrunk

http://www.62infantry.com/Weapons_Equipment/BAP.shtml

Ponster

Cheers! That was it

Fuinseog

Ponster wrote: »

For some reason my Google skills are poor tonight so I thought I'd ask here.

I remember when I was about 11 in the early 80's finding my fathers service pistol hidden in a shelf in my bedroom (idiotic place to have hidden it).

I'm interested in finding out what model it was so is there anything I can tell you so I can pin down the make/model ?

Thanks !

since when did army officers take their service pistol home with them?

Ponster

Fuinseog wrote: »

since when did army officers take their service pistol home with them?

He was an MP, not an officer though I know that it doesn't really answer your question.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fuinseog wrote: »

since when did army officers take their service pistol home with them?

Never.

And it was a terrible pistol, horribly inaccurate.

Fuinseog

Noelle Alive Insectivore wrote: »

Never.

And it was a terrible pistol, horribly inaccurate.

maybe not quite never. my grand da was in the LDF and he used to bring home his .303

I also heard that if officers were fearful about their security they were allowed to own or borrow a walther PPK for their protection.

punchdrunk

my dad brought his .303 home on the bus in the late 60's while in the FCA

cushtac

punchdrunk wrote: »

my dad brought his .303 home on the bus in the late 60's while in the FCA

The .303 was a rifle, not a pistol. To the best of my knowledge no other weapons were ever brought out of the barracks by troops. I've similarly never heard of officers being allowed to draw a PPK for personal protection.

punchdrunk

cushtac wrote: »

The .303 was a rifle, not a pistol. To the best of my knowledge no other weapons were ever brought out of the barracks by troops. I've similarly never heard of officers being allowed to draw a PPK for personal protection.

I know exactly what a .303 is,we have a deac in the house

cushtac

punchdrunk wrote: »

I know exactly what a .303 is,we have a deac in the house

Good for you.

tac foley

In Northern Ireland there are still a large number of people issued with firearms for personal protection. They include some current and former police officers, reservists from both police and military, prison officers, politicians and others who are deemed to be at risk from attempts on their lives, even now.

I'm aware that the total is some few thousand - we are not talking about the odd gun here and there.

Recent activities in the north, car bombs, killing of soldiers, blowing up of cars with people in them and so on, would indicate that all is not quite done.

tac

ED E

Fuinseog wrote: »

I also heard that if officers were fearful about their security they were allowed to own or borrow a walther PPK for their protection.

My Grandad carried a concealed sidearm for years during the troubles(living in Cavan) though I cant remember what caused him to start specifically. Must find out.

.22 Lover

Was it a walther or BAP?

thefishone

Fuinseog wrote: »

I also heard that if officers were fearful about their security they were allowed to own or borrow a walther PPK for their protection.

Heard that before,officers over a certain rank,not sure which,but Colonel
was mentioned can carry a military issued walter ppk for protection.
But a BAP,never heard of one being brought home,for any reason.

Ponster

thefishone wrote: »

But a BAP,never heard of one being brought home,for any reason.

I'm sure he just took it home with him by mistake one day.

The only other time I remember weapons at home was the day that Dessie O'Hare was arrested so I guess that it wasn't a regular thing.

ED E

Sorry, my memory was slightly off. Its was my Granduncle(?, Grandad's Brother) and it was during the '50s Campaign. It was due to him being a millitary judge for trials of paramilitaries that juries wouldnt touch. It was also a Luger and he carried it everywhere.

cullentom

were ppk's issued to pdf officers?i know they were widely used in the north,they were issued to UDR members as personal defence weapons after they stopped them bringing SLR's and sterlings home.

tac foley

cullentom wrote: »

were ppk's issued to pdf officers?i know they were widely used in the north,they were issued to UDR members as personal defence weapons after they stopped them bringing SLR's and sterlings home.

In Northern Ireland certain civilians were issued with carry permits for various .38calibre revolvers, including Ruger Security Sixes [RUC-issue as well]. Ive not heard of civilians getting Walthers of any kind, but, of course, it might have happened.

These days there are still, as I noted before, an extraordinary number of 'entitled' civilians.

tac

cushtac

Ponster wrote: »

I'm sure he just took it home with him by mistake one day.

A pistol is not the sort of thing you, or your quartermaster, forget about & bring home by accident.

cullentom

tac foley wrote: »

In Northern Ireland certain civilians were issued with carry permits for various .38calibre revolvers, including Ruger Security Sixes [RUC-issue as well]. Ive not heard of civilians getting Walthers of any kind, but, of course, it might have happened.

These days there are still, as I noted before, an extraordinary number of 'entitled' civilians.

tac

ah,the good old security six, hell of a gun in the .357 cartridge used before the mid 80's! not too aware of the extent of civvis up north having sidearms for the purpose of protection,i know it did happen,not aware if its still as widespread. as i said most UDR personnell had walthers or hi-powers available to them as off-duty PDW's,particularly in rural areas. have side arms ever been issued in such a way to PDF officers down here?

Manic Moran

Noelle Alive Insectivore wrote: »

And it was a terrible pistol, horribly inaccurate.

The Browning!?

I own one, it's perfectly good. (Granted, could do without the mag disconnect) Now, it's aso true to say that by the time you got your hands on one, it may have been used beyond its service life and was just worn through. American 1911s were so worn that they would rattle when you shook them. I think the British Brownings are about in the same state. Pistols are never a particularly great priority for replacement.

Or you could have just been a poor shot with a pistol...

NTM

Donny5

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Browning!?

I own one, it's perfectly good. (Granted, could do without the mag disconnect) Now, it's aso true to say that by the time you got your hands on one, it may have been used beyond its service life and was just worn through. American 1911s were so worn that they would rattle when you shook them. I think the British Brownings are about in the same state. Pistols are never a particularly great priority for replacement.

Or you could have just been a poor shot with a pistol...

NTM

Every BAP I got my hands on rattled, although I was FCÁ/RDF, so they were well used by the time I got to them.

punchdrunk

cullentom wrote: »

were ppk's issued to pdf officers?i know they were widely used in the north,they were issued to UDR members as personal defence weapons after they stopped them bringing SLR's and sterlings home.

PPK's were issued to air corps heli crews on border ops/security flights during the troubles as they were small and easy to carry in the flying suit pockets
(as the flying suit had no belt to attach a holster too)

Local-womanizer

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Browning!?

I own one, it's perfectly good. (Granted, could do without the mag disconnect) Now, it's aso true to say that by the time you got your hands on one, it may have been used beyond its service life and was just worn through.

I think this was the case with the BAPs,from what I've heard. Was told they loved to go off if dropped,and it would have had trouble hitting water if it was in a boat in the middle of the Atlantic!

Husqvarna

Walther PPK was on issue as a service weapon in the 1980s. IIRC they were issued to judges' drivers (possibly those driving Special Criminal Court judges, though that's only speculation).

They were also available to high ranking people in the DF also, i.e. COS, D Int etc. There were a few in McKee up to a few years ago. Could still be there for all I know.

cullentom

Husqvarna wrote: »

Walther PPK was on issue as a service weapon in the 1980s. IIRC they were issued to judges' drivers (possibly those driving Special Criminal Court judges, though that's only speculation).

They were also available to high ranking people in the DF also, i.e. COS, D Int etc. There were a few in McKee up to a few years ago. Could still be there for all I know.

judges drivers? if your refering to garda drivers,im pretty sure they would have carried smith and wesson model 10 revolvers or model 59 semi autos in the 80's,never heard of garda personell carrying ppk's? although im open to correction on that!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Or you could have just been a poor shot with a pistol...

Thats why I chose Judo teams in the defence forces over shooting teams :cool:

'Little old me!.

It wasn't me!

Noelle Alive Insectivore wrote: »

Thats why I chose Judo teams in the defence forces over shooting teams :cool:

'Little old me!.

There was always the rifle shooting end of things. I'd have run into you long before now if you'd gone down that route.

arybvtcw0eolkf

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There was always the rifle shooting end of things. I'd have run into you long before now if you'd gone down that route.

Which end does the bullet come out?...

Tbh, I'd hit more swinging it by the barrel!.

PeterIanStaker

I fired the BAP as an RDF man, needless to say I may have startled the target as opposed to actually hit it! We had one guy, a Captain, who was a great shot with it though.

In my opinion

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I fired the BAP as an RDF man, needless to say I may have startled the target as opposed to actually hit it! We had one guy, a Captain, who was a great shot with it though.

Was going to reply but honestly it's not worth a reply

PeterIanStaker

In my opinion wrote: »

Was going to reply but honestly it's not worth a reply

I see what you did there . .

tac foley

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Browning!?

I own one, it's perfectly good. (Granted, could do without the mag disconnect) Now, it's aso true to say that by the time you got your hands on one, it may have been used beyond its service life and was just worn through. American 1911s were so worn that they would rattle when you shook them. I think the British Brownings are about in the same state. Pistols are never a particularly great priority for replacement.

Or you could have just been a poor shot with a pistol...

NTM

The Royal Air Force was issued with genuine FN-manufactured Brownings. We were issued throughout my thirty-three years with Canadian Inglis-built Brownings, as well as SIG P226/8 toward the end of my time. Sure the Brownings rattled a bit, but I won enough inter and tri-service competions with my 'old rattler' to trust it.

My own personally-paid-for Browning was another FN, bought from Parker-Hale in 1969. It now lives in Oregon, along with my newer model, a never-issued Portuguese police version with the spiffy black finish.

The trigger can be improved no end by simply polishing the front of the magazine where the safety interceptor shoe slides on it. This was the only permissable 'improvement' to the gun in military shooting competitions, and more than made up for the far superior manufacture and general state enjoyed by the Brylcream boys when we shot against them.

13+1 in the chamber means that it is still a valid handgun as a carry piece, and the latest Federal 115gr JHP would prolly not bounce off most folks' foreheads, if the application of a few rounds there were to be needed.

tac

chem

cullentom wrote: »

judges drivers? if your refering to garda drivers,im pretty sure they would have carried smith and wesson model 10 revolvers or model 59 semi autos in the 80's,never heard of garda personell carrying ppk's? although im open to correction on that!

I was working in a Dublin Hospital about 5yrs ago. Some gang member was shot the night before I arrived for work. He was in ICU. There was a detective/branch officer sitting outside the ward all day. He had a .45 colt 1911 on his shoulder. Not sure if they can buy their own now or if its standard issue.

cullentom

chem wrote: »

I was working in a Dublin Hospital about 5yrs ago. Some gang member was shot the night before I arrived for work. He was in ICU. There was a detective/branch officer sitting outside the ward all day. He had a .45 colt 1911 on his shoulder. Not sure if they can buy their own now or if its standard issue.

could of been his own but i doubt he would have been carrying it on duty if it was! you sure it was a 1911? surely you couldnt have seen too much of it if it was in a shoulder holster?

.22 Lover

The BAP and 1911 look pretty much the same to the untrained from the rear. its the front of the slide that is the majour noticeable diffrence.And its very unlikely that an Irish/English armed branch would import and use American rounds.

It wasn't me!

.22 Lover wrote: »

The BAP and 1911 look pretty much the same to the untrained from the rear. its the front of the slide that is the majour noticeable diffrence.And its very unlikely that an Irish/English armed branch would import and use American rounds.

The 1911 can be had in 9mm Para as well as .45 ACP, so no conflict in terms of ammunition there. I don't know of either the Browning Hi Power or the Colt 1911 in use by AGS though.

cullentom

as i said before,the smith and wesson m 59 was used by AGS for a period,again could be mistaken (like alot of large frame semi-autos) for a 1911- i have seen some odd pieces turn up in firearms lockers but generally just in there for safe keeping,not general issue!

cullentom

.22 Lover wrote: »

The BAP and 1911 look pretty much the same to the untrained from the rear. its the front of the slide that is the majour noticeable diffrence.And its very unlikely that an Irish/English armed branch would import and use American rounds.

they did,the army used the thompson smg which is .45. not sure of the time period but i think it was from the foundation of the state up to when they bought the gustav,maybe one of the DF lads could correct me if im wrong there!

xflyer

It could have been a Glock which is superficially similar especially in a holster seen from a distance. I presume you didn't go up to him and and stare closely. They were issued to detectives at one stage I think. But that isn't to say it wasn't a 1911. This is Ireland after all and you can never say never. Equally there are various 1911 variations out there and very similar looking. Smith and Wesson for example have something that looks a lot like a 1911.

cushtac

The Gardaí have never used the Browning, 1911 or the Glock. The S&W 59 was only ever used by the ERU and I've never heard of any Gardaí using the PPK.

The only handguns in use are S&W revolvers and the SIG P226. There's talk of the Walther P99 being bought to replace the revolvers but I'm not sure if any are in use.

.22 Lover

Ahh right sorry for the misinformation.Im still learning;)

cullentom

cushtac wrote: »

The Gardaí have never used the Browning, 1911 or the Glock. The S&W 59 was only ever used by the ERU and I've never heard of any Gardaí using the PPK.

The only handguns in use are S&W revolvers and the SIG P226. There's talk of the Walther P99 being bought to replace the revolvers but I'm not sure if any are in use.

theres a walther in use with some surveillance units but its not a p99, it is one of walthers modern pieces though and not a PPK. as regards to the S&W 59,it was used outside the ERU (not sure if this was only by members rotating out to plainclothes armed roles) and at one point was being considered as a general replacement for the model 10 but was dropped due to the fact that S&W were going to finish production due to poor uptake,apparently its the same reason the FBI dropped it!

cushtac

cullentom wrote: »

theres a walther in use with some surveillance units but its not a p99, it is one of walthers modern pieces though and not a PPK.

P99 is a modern weapon.

cullentom wrote: »

as regards to the S&W 59,it was used outside the ERU (not sure if this was only by members rotating out to plainclothes armed roles) and at one point was being considered as a general replacement for the model 10 but was dropped due to the fact that S&W were going to finish production due to poor uptake,apparently its the same reason the FBI dropped it!

Firearms don't follow Gardaí around - the weapons stay within the unit so there's no way someone leaving the ERU took a weapon with him to a new appointment. It also went out of production in the 80's.