Ulster Unionist Party

Delancey

From the partition of this island up to the 1970's at least , the dominant force in Northern Ireland politics was the Ulster Unionist Party.
I have always found it interesting that all of the Unionist Prime Ministers were from landed and titled ' gentry ' and similarly none were educated in the North - they all went to English public schools.
The one exception was the last P.M. Brian Faulkner who while not of gentry stock was nonetheless the son of the worlds largest shirt manufacturer and was actually educated in Dublin.

Northern Ireland was in the first half of the 20th century a much more industrialised economy than the south - ship building , engineering, linen , etc. Despite this industrialised society, Socialism which in the rest of Western Europe in similar circumstances was thriving , did not really enter the Northern Ireland political scene - why is this ?

I have a theory that the UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy , namely they kept the ' National ' question to the fore and thus ensured the continued support of the Protestant working class - I have always found it peculiar that the workers of the shipyards for instance voted UUP ( and it's Upper Class leadership ) when their interests might have been better served by Socialism.

Is my theory correct ? If so , could it be argued that the UUP effectively sold out the Protestant working class to protect it's wealthy land-owning and industrialist leadership ?

Opinions welcome - it's just a theory .

CDfm

I have heard the situation in Northern Ireland described as institutional discrimination as opposed to sectarian as such by an eminent sociologist. This is based around the power of the "limited good"

What is meant by this is the "limited good" people understand that there is only so much to go around in terms of jobs ,housing and money.

So in Northern Ireland the redistribution occured but used a religious filter as there was not really enough to go around and the "actors" in the game understood this.

So maintaining the status quo helped this.

Now if you were a working class Northern Protestant I can imagine thinking that given the choice between socialism and unionism saying" well I can see where you are coming from but unionism works for me".So in a post industrialised society there are also a limited amount of jobs,resourses available.

I also think that socialism didn't take into account the ties that bind and I have said this before about socialists in the War of Independence.Someone who fought for land ownership is not going to appreciate someone who comes along and takes from the poor and gives to the poor. Essentially, which the proposition was for Northern Ireland.

The concept that land is wealth that can be redistributed is all fine and dandy in an agrarian economy but not in a post industrialised society. You cant spend land but it gives status etc as does religious and other ties in a community be it greyhound racing , GAA football or whatever.

So where were the benefits for the working class protestant with socialism and how would it have benefited them. Like it or not in Harland and Woolf the ship building jobs went to the protestants and they knew it.

As the North is no longer industrialised and facing a situation where these "ties" are diminished and the British effectivelly will reduce its subsidy to Northern Ireland -that is a catalyst for change. The system has broken down and things like religion etc are less important.

I am not so sure if I had been protestant in Northern Ireland I would not have found the system seductive too.

owenc

Maybe you are right about selling out the protestant working class as most as they had ties with the rich conservatives.. but i think most protestants have now went to the dup because they are the more hardline unionists.. But why would they sell them out, as they wanted support for them, and they got it as well.. nearly every protestant family supported them, not anymore, the less hardline ones do, mines have supported them the whole way through and still do but maybe thats because we don't really socalise with the orange order, my ancestors would've spent more time with church than with that, maybe thats because they were more conservative and of course so was the uup.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

I have heard the situation in Northern Ireland described as institutional discrimination as opposed to sectarian as such by an eminent sociologist. This is based around the power of the "limited good"

What is meant by this is the "limited good" people understand that there is only so much to go around in terms of jobs ,housing and money.

So in Northern Ireland the redistribution occured but used a religious filter as there was not really enough to go around and the "actors" in the game understood this.

So maintaining the status quo helped this.

Now if you were a working class Northern Protestant I can imagine thinking that given the choice between socialism and unionism saying" well I can see where you are coming from but unionism works for me".

I also think that socialism didn't take into account the ties that bind and I have said this before about socialists in the War of Independence.Someone who fought for land ownership is not going to appreciate someone who comes along and takes from the poor and gives to the poor. Essentially, which the proposition was for Northern Ireland.

The concept that land is wealth that can be redistributed is all fine and dandy in an agrarian economy but not in a post industrialised society. You cant spend land but it gives status etc as does religious and other ties in a community be it greyhound racing , GAA football or whatever.

So where were the benefits for the working class protestant with socialism and how would it have benefited them.

I am not so sure if I had been protestant in Northern Ireland I would not have found the system seductive too.

I think your opinion would be different if you were actually a protestant you won't know as you aren't, so your opinion is different now.

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

I think your opinion would be different if you were actually a protestant you won't know as you aren't, so your opinion is different now.

Oh but I do -I am just putting it nicely. I would like the nice house and car too and would want my kids to get the nice jobs.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Oh but I do -I am just putting it nicely. I would like the nice house and car too and would want my kids to get the nice jobs.

I agree with you but i assure you now, if you were a protestant here you would have a totally different opinion to what you have now of things.

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

I agree with you but i assure you now, if you were a protestant here you would have a totally different opinion to what you have now of things.

No doubt about it - but its an easy call.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

No doubt about it - but its an easy call.

Yes of course that is.

owenc

delancey42 wrote: »

From the partition of this island up to the 1970's at least , the dominant force in Northern Ireland politics was the Ulster Unionist Party.
I have always found it interesting that all of the Unionist Prime Ministers were from landed and titled ' gentry ' and similarly none were educated in the North - they all went to English public schools.
The one exception was the last P.M. Brian Faulkner who while not of gentry stock was nonetheless the son of the worlds largest shirt manufacturer and was actually educated in Dublin.

Northern Ireland was in the first half of the 20th century a much more industrialised economy than the south - ship building , engineering, linen , etc. Despite this industrialised society, Socialism which in the rest of Western Europe in similar circumstances was thriving , did not really enter the Northern Ireland political scene - why is this ?

I have a theory that the UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy , namely they kept the ' National ' question to the fore and thus ensured the continued support of the Protestant working class - I have always found it peculiar that the workers of the shipyards for instance voted UUP ( and it's Upper Class leadership ) when their interests might have been better served by Socialism.

Is my theory correct ? If so , could it be argued that the UUP effectively sold out the Protestant working class to protect it's wealthy land-owning and industrialist leadership ?

Opinions welcome - it's just a theory .

As i said why would they do that, wouldn't they be looking for support from working class protestants rather than upper class Protestants wouldn't there be more of them.

Denerick

delancey42 wrote: »

I have a theory that the UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy , namely they kept the ' National ' question to the fore and thus ensured the continued support of the Protestant working class - I have always found it peculiar that the workers of the shipyards for instance voted UUP ( and it's Upper Class leadership ) when their interests might have been better served by Socialism.


Opinions welcome - it's just a theory .

I don't understand why people automatically insist that the working classes interests necessarily lie with socialism. Or that when they aren't voting for socialists, they are somehow tricked or deluded. Tribalism, jingoism and sectarianism are far greater and more powerful forces that can unite a 'class'. Besides, the UUP had their working class stiffs in parliament as well; sure even most (If not all) of the left wing postwar Labour party were educated in Oxbridge.

PatsytheNazi

delancey42 wrote: »

From the partition of this island up to the 1970's at least , the dominant force in Northern Ireland politics was the Ulster Unionist Party.
I have always found it interesting that all of the Unionist Prime Ministers were from landed and titled ' gentry ' and similarly none were educated in the North - they all went to English public schools.
The one exception was the last P.M. Brian Faulkner who while not of gentry stock was nonetheless the son of the worlds largest shirt manufacturer and was actually educated in Dublin.

Off the top of my head - Edward Carson of course was from Dublin, UUP MP's in the 1970's and 80's Rev Martin Smyth was educated at Trinners, James Kilfedder was from Leitrim and educated at Trinners. Made absoultuely no difference to thier secterian attitudes towards the taigs.

Northern Ireland was in the first half of the 20th century a much more industrialised economy than the south - ship building , engineering, linen , etc. Despite this industrialised society, Socialism which in the rest of Western Europe in similar circumstances was thriving , did not really enter the Northern Ireland political scene - why is this ?

Since the unionist working class enjoyed the benefits of secterian discrimination, they therefore sided with the employers to maintain the status quo regardless as in a more equal society the nationalists could have been competition to them. Also it should be kept in mind the supremacist nature that is a very central part to unionists 'traditions' ,the Orange Order, preachers of hate like Paisley etc, etc ( Paisley follows a long line of unionist hate mongers such as the Rev Roaring Hanna in the 1900's )

I have a theory that the UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy , namely they kept the ' National ' question to the fore and thus ensured the continued support of the Protestant working class - I have always found it peculiar that the workers of the shipyards for instance voted UUP ( and it's Upper Class leadership ) when their interests might have been better served by Socialism.

The UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy as that's the way the northeast of the country has been deliberately operated by the British since the Ulster plantation.

Is my theory correct ? If so , could it be argued that the UUP effectively sold out the Protestant working class to protect it's wealthy land-owning and industrialist leadership ?

Opinions welcome - it's just a theory .

Some Protestants were far from been secterian bigots but they recevied the same as Catholics and even worse from the heavies in Harland and Wolf etc and across the north from the unionist gangs. It was a two way process with the promise of better jobs for the unionist working class/scum.

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Off the top of my head - Edward Carson of course was from Dublin, UUP MP's in the 1970's and 80's Rev Martin Smyth was educated at Trinners, James Kilfedder was from Leitrim and educated at Trinners. Made absoultuely no difference to thier secterian attitudes towards the taigs.

James Connolly covers this somehwere, I'll see if I can find it. Basically since the unionist working class enjoyed the benefits of secterian discrimination, they therefore sided with the employers to maintain the status quo regardless as in a more equal society the nationalists could have been competition to them. Also it should be kept in mind the supremacist nature that is a very central part to unionists 'traditions' ,the Orange Order, preachers of hate like Paisley etc, etc

The UUP deliberately operated a 'divide and rule' policy as that's the way the northeast of the country has been deliberately operated by the British since the Ulster plantation.

Some Protestants were far from been secterian bigots but they recevied the same as Catholics and even worse from the heavies in Harland and Wolf etc and across the north from the unionist gangs.

Go, go, go you , you tell them, i'm sick of them hardcore republicans and nationalists saying how the nationalists were treated like a piece of crap by the unionists and the unionists were always treated like royalty.:rolleyes:

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Go, go, go you , you tell them, i'm sick of them hardcore republicans and nationalists saying how the nationalists were treated like a piece of crap by the unionists and the unionists were always treated like royalty.:rolleyes:

So allegations of widespread discrimination are just a fabrication of the IRA ? :rolleyes: And since the topic of the discussion is regarding mistreatment, then why post on the thread several times if your sick of it Einstein ?

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So allegations of widespread discrimination are just a fabrication of the IRA ? :rolleyes: And since the topic of the discussion is regarding mistreatment, then why post on the thread several times if your sick of it Einstein ?

Gimmie head peace away on. You know that these statements about discrimination are a pile of rubbish made up by republicans.

Denerick

owenc wrote: »

Gimmie head peace away on. You know that these statements about discrimination are a pile of rubbish made up by republicans.

I'm not a Republican, but how you can claim the nationalist community never experienced discrimination is beyond me.

owenc

Denerick wrote: »

I'm not a Republican, but how you can claim the nationalist community never experienced discrimination is beyond me.

and how you claim the unionist community never experienced discrimination is beyond me as well. I'm sick too the tone death of these republicans coming in and saying you stole our land, you discriminated us, they have no fricken clue now get off our case!

Denerick

owenc wrote: »

and how you claim the unionist community never experienced discrimination is beyond me as well.

Where did I claim that?

owenc

Denerick wrote: »

Where did I claim that?

You didn't but your sitting saying that the nationalists were discriminated and the unionists weren't i'm sick too death of hearing that !

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So allegations of widespread discrimination are just a fabrication of the IRA ? :rolleyes: And since the topic of the discussion is regarding mistreatment, then why post on the thread several times if your sick of it Einstein ?

deise go deo

owenc wrote: »

You didn't but your sitting saying that the nationalists were discriminated and the unionists weren't i'm sick too death of hearing that !

So your saying he dident say it but your sick of him saying it?



Do you really beleive that Nationalists werent discriminated against more that other groups?

owenc

deise go deo wrote: »

So your saying he dident say it but your sick of him saying it?

No hes confused me totally, and i'm sick too death of these hardcore republicans making claims of unionists being treated like royalty and the nationalists being oppressed.

deise go deo

owenc wrote: »

No hes confused me totally, and i'm sick too death of these hardcore republicans making claims of unionists being treated like royalty and the nationalists being oppressed.

But he dident claim that. So why accuse him of it?

Do you think Nationalist werent discriminated against more?

owenc

deise go deo wrote: »

But he dident claim that. So why accuse him of it?

Do you think Nationalist werent discriminated against more?

In derry they were but i don't know about that in other areas.

Wolfe Tone

FFS this is typical Owenc style, come in, make a few points then play the "You are all big bad mean republicans" card. Commence thread derailment when people defend themselves from his accusations. Seen it a hundred times.

You didn't but your sitting saying that the nationalists were discriminated and the unionists weren't i'm sick too death of hearing that !

Sick of the truth? That is your heritage Owen.


On topic, interestingly Carson was a talented hurler while in Trinity.

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

FFS this is typical Owenc style, come in, make a few points then play the "You are all big bad mean republicans" card. Commence thread derailment when people defend themselves from his accusations. Seen it a hundred times.


Sick of the truth? That is your heritage Owen.


On topic, interestingly Carson was a talented hurler while in Trinity.

Typical mussonlini style.. includes running down unionists, getting high hopes for a united ireland and many more, you know the show. WHAT IS MY HERITAGE!:eek: And as for carson being a talented hurlur, i know loads of protestants who play galeice in my school.

mikemac

owenc wrote: »

And as for carson being a talented hurlur, i know loads of protestants who play galeice in my school.

So what?
The GAA has never been sectarian

owenc

feelingstressed wrote: »

So what?
The GAA has never been sectarian

:rolleyes: Eh its seen as a republican thing to do here..

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

:rolleyes: Eh its seen as a republican thing to do here..

The major cup is named after a protestant...

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The major cup is named after a protestant...

and.. its seen as a republican thing here.

deise go deo

owenc wrote: »

:eek: And as for carson being a talented hurlur, i know loads of protestants who play galeice in my school.

Thats intresting, I dident know Unionists had much of an intrest in Galic games, Do they just play in school or are they in the local GAA club?

As for the topic, I think working class unionists at the time felt they were better of with the UUP in power then under a more socialist system.

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

Typical mussonlini style.. includes running down unionists, getting high hopes for a united ireland and many more, you know the show. WHAT IS MY HERITAGE!:eek: And as for carson being a talented hurlur, i know loads of protestants who play galeice in my school.

So Owen, you completly deny that the UUP and the unionist powers institutionally discriminated against catholics? Gerrymandered votes? Ran them out of jobs?(OP thats probably why the dock workers voted the way they did, catholics were run out). Generally just treated Catholics as second class citizens? Discriminated in housing? The list goes on and on.

Anyway, I think the OP needs to take the OO into account. Protestants on every level were members, from road sweepers to ministers. This was the glue that held them together. The siege mentality that was spread by the powers that be led the protestant populace to vote the way they did. They dared not deviate lest the nationalists got a voice. Republicanism has long been associated with socialism.

owenc

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats intresting, I dident know Unionists had much of an intrest in Galic games, Do they just play in school or are they in the local GAA club?

As for the topic, I think working class unionists at the time felt they were better of with the UUP in power then under a more socialist system.

Aw naw we have it in our school but its only because we are a mixed school and you have to be in sixth form to play it, its not compulsery for games like rugby or football and the ones in my year just play it at home or are in a team, though its not very common, just a few people, i was just saying its rising in protestants.