Orangemen's right to vote

Long Term Louth

Isn't it quite ironic that the battle upon which the Orange Order was founded was between relatives Father and Son in law.

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Isn't it quite ironic that the battle upon which the Orange Order was founded was between relatives Father and Son in law.

not particularly ironic?..

moonpurple

William of Orange had the backing of the Pope at the battle of the boyne and his best fighters were catholic

but heck history is what you make of it::pac:

key irish people have no wish to dump on those southern Irish who wish to be orangmen
from wiki

In February 2008 it was announced that the Orange Order was to be granted nearly €250,000 from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The grant is intended to provide support for members in border areas and fund the repair of Orange halls, many of which have been subject to vandalism.[89][90]

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

not particularly ironic?..

Religious motives did not seem to be to the fore, power I would suggest.

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Religious motives did not seem to be to the fore, power I would suggest.

the whole conflict between all communities in Ireland has been over power

Chips Lovell

The Highwayman wrote: »

If an orangeman from the ROI swears an oath of aligence to the monarch of another country should they have a right to Irish citizenship, to a passport and to vote in Irish general/local elections?

They can swear an oath of allegiance to Satan for all I care. Seriously, why get your knickers in a twist over an oath?

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

the whole conflict between all communities in Ireland has been over power

I agree, but why is religion always used to gain the support of the man on the ground?

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I agree, but why is religion always used to gain the support of the man on the ground?

because during that period daily life was heavily influenced by religion

Chips Lovell

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I agree, but why is religion always used to gain the support of the man on the ground?

Because it works. Historically it has been one of the most effective ways of rallying one group against another.

Celly Smunt

el tonto wrote: »

Because it works. Historically it has been one of the most effective ways of rallying one group against another.

divide and conquer.

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

because during that period daily life was heavily influenced by religion

But a lot of the fighters in Williams army where Catholic.

Chips Lovell

pmcmahon wrote: »

divide and conquer.

Not even that. Two communities could already be divided by not antipathetic towards one another until someone starts to stir it up.

Chips Lovell

Long Term Louth wrote: »

But a lot of the fighters in Williams army where Catholic.

Maybe he paid more?

Long Term Louth

el tonto wrote: »

Maybe he paid more?

I refer to my original post power not religion!!!

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

But a lot of the fighters in Williams army where Catholic.

he was allied with the pope,such a soap opera :rolleyes:

edit: and spain

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

he was allied with the pope,such a soap opera :rolleyes:

A lot of poor ignorant people on both sides, fighting to support their families.
Youre right P. I'd say defender is relieved with the break?

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

A lot of poor ignorant people on both sides, fighting to support their families.
Youre right P. I'd say defender is relieved with the break?

well i'm a prod too but its hard to explain these things to ignorant "hardcore" none church going catholics whose republican education goes as far as "tíocaidh ar lá" and bloody sunday.Quite frustrating haha

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

well i'm a prod too but its hard to explain these things to ignorant "hardcore" none church going catholics whose republican education goes as far as "tíocaidh ar lá" and bloody sunday.Quite frustrating haha

Applicable to your persuasion too, I am sure you will agree

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Applicable to your persuasion too, I am sure you will agree

persuasion is a tool of preaching,i wouldn't go that far

Wolfe Tone

Just to chip in here, no proper republican has any beef with protestants, sure Wolfe Tone himself was one.

Celly Smunt

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Just to chip in here, no proper republican has any beef with protestants, sure Wolfe Tone himself was one.

totally agree,its sadly the case of the uneducated who think its a battle of Catholicism and Protestantism

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

persuasion is a tool of preaching,i wouldn't go that far

Perhaps, but I am sure you will agree that ignorance impinges upon all cultures and traditions, religiuos, historical or otherwise.

Long Term Louth

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Just to chip in here, no proper republican has any beef with protestants, sure Wolfe Tone himself was one.

Absolutely!

Celly Smunt

Long Term Louth wrote: »

Perhaps, but I am sure you will agree that ignorance impinges upon all cultures and traditions, religiuos, historical or otherwise.

yep,and sends all process into the ground,i was flicking through my old history text book just there and the way it is also portrayed in there is also quite shocking lots of "catholic killed these protestants" vice versa,i feel if schools could catch students and teach them all this it would keep the bitterness away and teach them to be proud of their heritage

InTheTrees

Here's what I was taught;

The Stewarts were an irresponsible bunch as rulers, they had inflated ideas about the divine right of monarchs and regarded parliament as a tool for their own use. CharlesI screwed things up so much that he was beheaded and the puritans took over and banned dancing and horse racing. That couldnt last so they reverted back to a stewart king again; Charles II was bad but by the time of James II things were getting really shaky again politically and william was invited to come and take over. In the ensuing war james was driven into exile in france after being defeated in Ireland.

"Religion" was more about power and strategic alliances, look at the wild swings in "faith" that occurred in England. It must have been no small task to completely change over the state religion every decade or so. In addition to forcibly converting the people and burning the bishops of the outgoing faith.

InTheTrees

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Just to chip in here, no proper republican has any beef with protestants, sure Wolfe Tone himself was one.

Exactly. Orange order may mean protestant, but protestant doesnt mean orange order.

Long Term Louth

pmcmahon wrote: »

yep,and sends all process into the ground,i was flicking through my old history text book just there and the way it is also portrayed in there is also quite shocking lots of "catholic killed these protestants" vice versa,i feel if schools could catch students and teach them all this it would keep the bitterness away and teach them to be proud of their heritage

I Agree.

I cant speak for todays teachings, but in my time I agree they where all one sided and it was only through self education, I learned to envisage both sides viewpoints with an open mind. Hopefully this educational process has changed, as I certainly will make it my business to encourage my own children to view all with an open mind.

Dionysus

Our Orange brethren appear to have gone silent since the whole historically-solid "William of Orange was supported by the Pope, Spaniards etc" point.

Then again perhaps they are living in different timezones ... and gone off to the leaba?

Celly Smunt

Dionysus wrote: »

Our Orange brethren appear to have gone silent since the whole historically-solid "William of Orange was supported by the Pope, Spaniards etc" point.

Then again perhaps they are living in different timezones ... and gone off to the leaba?

maybe we should wait til they wake up

KeithAFC

Dionysus wrote: »

Our Orange brethren appear to have gone silent since the whole historically-solid "William of Orange was supported by the Pope, Spaniards etc" point.

Then again perhaps they are living in different timezones ... and gone off to the leaba?

So? Not that it matters. Its a pointless argument.

Dionysus

KeithAFC wrote: »

So? Not that it matters. Its a pointless argument.

It does matter when present-day Orange Order supporters are marching in anti-Catholic bands in support of a Dutch monarch who was supported by the Roman Catholic Church and other Catholic powers such as Spain in the very battle which they commemorate. It particularly gives the lie to the standard OO line of "We hate the CC Church, not Catholics" when in the case of the Battle of the Boyne they are supporting the Catholic Church-supported monarch, William of Orange, against the Catholic people in the army of James II.

steddyeddy

Dionysus wrote: »

It does matter when present-day Orange Order supporters are marching in anti-Catholic bands in support of a Dutch monarch who was supported by the Roman Catholic Church and other Catholic powers such as Spain in the very battle which they commemorate. It particularly gives the lie to the standard OO line of "We hate the CC Church, not Catholics" when in the case of the Battle of the Boyne they are supporting the Catholic Church-supported monarch, William of Orange, against the Catholic people in the army of James II.

Cognitive dissonance at play, youll find an arguement wont matter if its contary to their current belief

Defenders

Long Term Louth wrote: »

I Agree.

I cant speak for todays teachings, but in my time I agree they where all one sided and it was only through self education, I learned to envisage both sides viewpoints with an open mind. Hopefully this educational process has changed, as I certainly will make it my business to encourage my own children to view all with an open mind.

well said! I can only think back to my secondary school history course with dismay. I remember my old history teacher, a very good and passionate man, who told us not to swallow any of it, just regurgitate it for the leaving cert. The Irish history section was so completely one sided it was scarey...it's not far off the nationalist serbia idea...

Defenders

Dionysus wrote: »

It does matter when present-day Orange Order supporters are marching in anti-Catholic bands in support of a Dutch monarch who was supported by the Roman Catholic Church and other Catholic powers such as Spain in the very battle which they commemorate. It particularly gives the lie to the standard OO line of "We hate the CC Church, not Catholics" when in the case of the Battle of the Boyne they are supporting the Catholic Church-supported monarch, William of Orange, against the Catholic people in the army of James II.

uneducated gibberish I'm afraid.

Wolfe Tone

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What is your opinion on marching through areas like the Gervaghy road etc?

Personally I think parades should not be allowed go ahead without approval from those affected by it. The residents. That goes for nationalist parades too.

Care to address this?

Defenders

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Care to address this?

I can understand the lodges but I also see the other side of the argument. For those Orangemen, it's traditional. Their fathers, grandfathers and sometimes great grand fathers all walked a certain route. They want to keep the traditional routes. But things change and the OO needs to adapt. They can make new traditions.

In saying that though, these sinn fein fronted residents groups need to take a serious chill pill and stop going out of their way to be offended...

Wolfe Tone

Defenders wrote: »

I can understand the lodges but I also see the other side of the argument. For those Orangemen, it's traditional. Their fathers, grandfathers and sometimes great grand fathers all walked a certain route. They want to keep the traditional routes. But things change and the OO needs to adapt. They can make new traditions.

In saying that though, these sinn fein fronted residents groups need to take a serious chill pill and stop going out of their way to be offended...

A near perfect dodge there. Do you thin it is wrong for the OO to march through nationalist areas where they are not wanted?

Defenders

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A near perfect dodge there. Do you thin it is wrong for the OO to march through nationalist areas where they are not wanted?

it's not a simple yes or no. it's called democracy and freedom of assembly. Each case should be judged on it's own merits. The Orange Order is, for better or for worse, part and parcel of the cultural identity of many Protestants on the island of Ireland. That isn't going to change.

The OO should engage with resident groups. and see what happens.

Wolfe Tone

Defenders wrote: »

it's not a simple yes or no. it's called democracy and freedom of assembly. Each case should be judged on it's own merits. The Orange Order is, for better or for worse, part and parcel of the cultural identity of many Protestants on the island of Ireland. That isn't going to change.

The OO should engage with resident groups. and see what happens.

So if the residents say no you think the OO should respect that and not march? Or is it a case of they should only listen to the residents if the OO like what they hear?

Misanthrope

Orange marches and st patrick's day parades are two of the most pathetic public spectacles I've ever witnessed.

What is so good about marching around the place anyway.They all look like twats.

At least paddys day parades are good for advertisers.An orange march is good for feck all, other than target practice.Said frightened bitter old men in bowler hats and sashs and young fellas who don't have anything better to do.SAD

As for orange muppets in the south,how many are there?Quiet boys on this side of the fence, aren't they.Utterly spineless.

InTheTrees

Misanthrope wrote: »

Orange marches and st patrick's day parades are two of the most pathetic public spectacles I've ever witnessed.

As for orange muppets in the south,how many are there?Quiet boys on this side of the fence, aren't they.Utterly spineless.

So you'd like them to have more of a presence in the south???

KeithAFC

Defenders wrote: »

it's not a simple yes or no. it's called democracy and freedom of assembly. Each case should be judged on it's own merits. The Orange Order is, for better or for worse, part and parcel of the cultural identity of many Protestants on the island of Ireland. That isn't going to change.

The OO should engage with resident groups. and see what happens.

Exactly.

The Orange Order represent people on the island of Ireland who are Orange Order members.

KeithAFC

Misanthrope wrote: »

Orange marches and st patrick's day parades are two of the most pathetic public spectacles I've ever witnessed.

What is so good about marching around the place anyway.They all look like twats.

At least paddys day parades are good for advertisers.An orange march is good for feck all, other than target practice.Said frightened bitter old men in bowler hats and sashs and young fellas who don't have anything better to do.SAD

As for orange muppets in the south,how many are there?Quiet boys on this side of the fence, aren't they.Utterly spineless.

You want them to scream, shout and plant bombs or something?

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Exactly.

The Orange Order represent people on the island of Ireland who are Orange Order members.

definatly I would love them to enage with the community to see what happens at least, even martin mguinnes said their a part of irish history

SEANYBOY1

Defenders wrote: »

It mightn't be all the parades and flags of the 50s or 60s, but it's still here..under the surface. Pearce, Connolly, Collins and Dev are still martyrs to a great majority within the state.

You better believe it, heroes in my eyes and right now they are spinning in their graves at the state of Ireland:mad:
Just could'nt resist putting a line through dev!

Misanthrope

KeithAFC wrote: »

You want them to scream, shout and plant bombs or something?

That's quite the extrapolation you made there.You wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth would ya?

By utterly spineless I mean they are, if there are any in the republic, very low key.They don't go marching through rough areas banging their drums etc.

The less I see of them the happier I am.They are an organisation born out of, and sustained by greed,prejudice and sheer hatred.They despise us more than just about anything.

InTheTrees

Misanthrope wrote: »

if there are any in the republic, very low key.They don't go marching through rough areas banging their drums etc.

Which is what I said earlier in the thread, I think the OO's are a predominately Ulster phenomena.

steddyeddy

I wouldnt mind if the oo wanted to start a dialouge in the south but if they started any anti catholic sh1t or anti ireland crap, I would be finished with them but im willing to hear thier point of view and give them the benifit of the doubt.

Misanthrope

steddyeddy wrote: »

definatly I would love them to enage with the community to see what happens at least, even martin mguinnes said their a part of irish history

I think we got a little taste of what happens, in Dublin '06.And that wasn't even a proper orange march.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unYlBWWZtDA

And some eejits think the Queen should visit?ROFLMAO.Much as I'd fantasise about sending a 50 cal shell through her head,I think there are many more far more eager men than me.Fellas mad enough to finish her with a shovel.All I'll need is a good seat and some popcorn.

Defenders

Misanthrope wrote: »

That's quite the extrapolation you made there.You wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth would ya?

By utterly spineless I mean they are, if there are any in the republic, very low key.They don't go marching through rough areas banging their drums etc.

A damning indictment of the southern states institutionalized anti-Protestantism and anti-British past I'd say, highlighted by your own sectarian bigotry. good on ya.

And ye wonder why our brethren across the border won't get into bed with you? lol

two states, one island. the only way forward.

NO SURRENDER!