Legality question, programming..

Mando Commando

Hi there,
I'm a complete beginner in radio, please bear with me....

I recently aquired a Motorola mt6000e walkie, to be used for playing Airsoft, a similar sport to paintball. Having done some research it seems this radio is out of the licence free PMR 446 range (403 - 470), and also in incompatible with the other handsets on the field. Online specs say this handset can be programmed.

My question is this - Can this radio be programmed into compatibility and legality, or will it always require a licence? If it can be programmed, where do I begin my research?

Thanks.

Taildragon

Hi Mando Commando

The short answer is no, it cannot be done legally. Unless, of course, you want to spend inordinate amounts of cash on the required modification/certification process.

Your best option (IMO) would be to sell the radio to a licenced member of the Amateur Radio community (for use on the authorised frequencies) and to spend the cash on certified PMR446 equipment. It's possible that a ComReg licenced PMR operator would have a legitimate use for your radio; however, I'd be surprised if they'd be interested in buying a one-off handheld with no provenance.

Possibly not the answer you wanted to hear. I hope it didn't cost you too much to acquire!

Mando Commando

Thanks Taildragon,

Cheers for advice, pity it's outside the rules, seems to be a decent piece of kit. Will look into PMR 446 stuff...

watty

I find some of the €30 a pair PMR446 work as well as the €150 each "professional" ones and are also able to take a headset.

They all have the same TX power and similar aerial. The receiver if a proper superhet and not a "toy" walkie-talkie "super-regenerative" will be similar too.

Mando Commando

Cheers Watty,

Thats interesting, could you recommend a brand or model?

I got a pair of secondhand Binatone 950, but they're fairly battered and when scanning for a signal, they receive each other, and other radios on the differing channels, and won't send. Also picked up a pair of the cheap Lidl Silvercest ones that work, but range and clarity is very poor.

Also could you tell me what some of those terms mean: "superhet" "super-regenetive"?

Thanks

humaxf1

...it seems this radio is out of the licence free PMR 446 range (403 - 470), and also in incompatible with the other handsets on the field. Online specs say this handset can be programmed.

My question is this - Can this radio be programmed into compatibility and legality, or will it always require a licence? If it can be programmed, where do I begin my research


Anything is possible with a programmable handset like that. The likes of CQ Communications in Dublin may be able to program it to licence free frequencies. Are you sure that the existing radios you have are on 446MHz? There is an American equivalent (FRS) which operates on 462/467MHz and appearance wise, you can't tell the difference between the handsets. To tell the difference, European 446 operates on 8 channels, American FRS operates on 14 channels.

Unless you use Tone Squelch, I couldn't see a problem getting it programmed to a license free set of channels (provided you can find a shop to do it) and it will match up Ok with the radios you have at present.

Good luck!

Mando Commando

Nice on Humanxf1,

Indeed they are in the 446mhz range, the Lidl ones have the 8 frequencies listed in the booklet, and these are identical to the ones on the LCD display on the Binatones.

I gave CQ Communications a call just now and their programming guy is on holidays till next Wednesday, so will ring them back then.

Tone squelsh may be an issue, I know that on the field people generally use, and switch the ctcss tones, as they switch channels (In order to keep the other team out of their comms! Very serious stuff indeed!) so I may need this function too. This handset is ctcss capable apparently so maybe it could be programmed so the user could set it at will, we'll see.

I must say, the area of radio is intriguing, lots to learn.

Cheers

humaxf1

Good stuff...

There is a disadvantage to radios like your Motorola...you have to decide on which frequencies/tone squelch you want per each channel preset. I have a GP300 & GM300 that I got off ebay about 6 years ago & had a good think about the programming before they were shipped.

If there is a squelch burst button, it deactivates the tone squelch for as long as it's pressed (so you can listen into the opposition LOL)

Motorola are a pain to program due to the hardware/software required. The likes of Yaesu programming software/cables are much more freely available, for eg, VX-246 or a VX-180 handset.

Hopefully CQ will be able to sort you out with your requirements...report back and let us know how you get on.

Taildragon

As humaxf1 has correctly pointed out, it is perfectly possible to modify this radio with the use of appropriate programming facilities.

However, the OPs question was "Can this radio be programmed into compatibility and legality". The answer is no, it cannot (without putting the re-programmed radio through the certification process).

It would be inadvisable to operate this equipment in a manner otherwise than in accordance with the certification requirements of the regulatory authority, ComReg.

watty

Agreed.

Even if programmed to 446, it's illegal to use on 446. These radios can only either be used on an Amateur Licence on Amateur band 430MHz to 440MHz, or on a Commercial Licence on only the frequencies designated for the licence holder.

You can not ever, no matter what licence you have, use a radio on 446MHz unless the manufacturer got PMR446 CE mark certification.

The US FRS and 915MHz ISM handhelds are illegal here. FRS is in two bands each with 7 channels, 462MHz (shared with GMRS) and 467MHz.

Some PMR446 claim to have many channels but only have 8. They are counting DCS selective call addreses. The Digital PMR446 may not actually be legal anywhere other than UK, they have shorter range and use 1/2 the channel size thus fitting 16 channels that overlap the 8 FM channels of normal Analogue FM PMR446.

Mando Commando

Thanks guys,

I see there's more to getting this radio up on PMR 446, than it first seemed. I thought about perhaps getting the licence, did I read somewhere that it's e75 for five years, with unlimited number of handsets? but if the legality is an issue then it's not worth it.

In the sport of Airsoft, generally people are very aware of the very specific laws that apply because of the realistic imitation firearms that are used. They have only been legal for a few years so far, and the Dept. of Justice, and an Garda Siochana keep a close eye on proceedings. So in the iterest of developing the sport, players and legit sites are mostly very law abiding, to the point that if I were at a site with an illegal radio, and someone knew the ins and outs of it, I would probably be asked to leave.

It's just a pity because this handset and others like it would allow for superior comms, as the PMR sets one sees from day to day on the field, regularly fail in the dense woods over very short distance.

Haha may just have to spend money on quality PMR 446 stuff, nothing is ever easy!....

Thanks for all the replies guys, very informative stuff.

watty

ALL PMR446 has much same range as it is limited by regulation to 0.5W. Only really poor quality "toys" have any much shorter range. Due to Inverse Square law, the radio needs to be x4 better to double the range. That's simply not possible. The long range claims of some products are open hill top to open hill top. In reality their range is at best 10% more for top of the price range gear.

Taildragon

A major limiting factor in your particular application (dense woodland) is the frequency (UHF) of the PMR446 sets. The military would use 75 Mhz(ish) frequencies in that sort of environment, and I would suggest that they are the experts in reliable comms for commandos ;-)

I can't think of any options open to you at those frequencies, unfortunately. One thing that may be worth trying is a couple of handheld CB units. 27Mhz will have much better "penetration" than 446Mhz in your chosen environment. The drawback (isn't there always one??) is that antennae need to be relatively long to offer reasonable efficiency.

Can you beg/borrow a couple of CB "walkie-talkies" to try?

What sort of distance are we looking at here? 100m? 200m? 500m? 1km?
Does the equipment have to be handheld? Would a small back-pack arrangement be practical?

watty

You can centre load the walkie talkie aerial with a coil to make is shorter. Unlike PMR446, you are allowed SSB with 4W (ETSI channels, not UK FM channels). Also unlike PMR446 you are allowed to modify the whip aerial (Beam/yagi etc not allowed though).

The handheld ones are usually not much good (I have only seen AM or FM on them). The solution is military style belt (one pouch at fron it radio and the other is battery) or back pack mount of car Mobile type with 12V battery pack and headset connected to mic & ear connectors.

SSB with 4W even with centre coil loaded whip (put a spring at bottom to allow flex and further shortening) is far superior to 0.5W FM. The "rubber duck" type aerials for 27MHz are very poor though.

Mando Commando

So mid-priced 0.5w gear would be the most cost effective - no need to spend a fortune then, thats good news!

Sounds about right Taildragon, it would seem that penetration is the issue, rather than range...

The distances that apply are well within claimed range of even very cheap units. At our site, the maximum distance two people could ever be apart would be shy of 1km, and is usually far less, yet sometimes the signal is very poor.

I spoke to some of the lads today about CBs, and while they could allow for better/clearer signals, the big antennae and all round bulkiness, would be a drawback for everyday playing. The beauty of personal comms is that every squad member is in the loop in real time all the time.

However....we are hosting a Vietnam War themed day coming up in a number of weeks, in which we'll try to utilise the entire area of the site and impliment realistic-ish restrictions and varied objectives during which comms will be paramount, and we thought CB's would be an excellent idea there as we could issue one per squad, like it was at that time. The antenna and the backpack would be appropriate, more realistic, and just cool:). But we doubt we could gather enough sets in time for each squad.

If this 4w CB type stuff is substantially better that PMR 446, we will probably see it creep into Airsoft amongst the "Milsim" players, who prefer realistic simulation stuff than regular "skirmishs". These guys spend money, travel extensively throughout Europe and beyond to play, and would find themselves playing at sites far bigger than ours.
Plus their ranks are filled with "techies" who would love to get into modifying CB radio gear!

Taildragon

Setting aside that FM, AM and SSB have insignificant differences at those ranges and power levels, SSB is a totally unsuitable method for personal communications in close-quarter combat situations (which the OP is emulating).

Military comms in such a scenario would be exclusively FM (AM was abandoned years ago except for specialist applications). VHF and UHF digital comms is also used, but not in the type of terrain described - it just isn't sufficiently reliable.

Personal issue radios need to be channelised, point-and-click, no-nonsense rugged waterproof green boxes that "just work". Consequently they tend to be low tech. Fiddling around with a clarifier control on SSB is a non-starter for these people.

watty

The stability of CB on SSB could be an issue But you can use SSB in Channelised mode without clarifier. I and my friend have Military 20W sets that don't need clarifier if set to same channel. But they do have oven based crystal references.

Military Comms in past (early 1970s to late 1990s) made heavy use of SSB, even with frequency hopping scrambling. But I agree in retrospect that the CB's may not be stable enough. AM is long gone except for aircraft (solves doppler shift issues) and has about 1/2 range of SSB for same power because so much is wasted in carrier. Also the P.A. can usually only run at 1/4 power for same supply voltage compared to FM or SSB.

The only legal modifications on CB is headset vs mic/speaker (just plugs in) and any aerial you like (as long as not directional) and how you mount it. Other than repair you can't do anything inside the box without losing the CE /ETSI licence free status.

I have a 10m version of a popular CB chassis, FT817ND and Military pack-back. Out of curiosity I will see how reliable they are purely on the channelised basis (on 28MHz) with clarifier off. Certainly the FT101ZD I have you ALWAYS need the clarifier.

The difference in range with FM and SSB is very significant. FM basically has a threshold where the S/N falls off a cliff. SSB uses narrower bandwidth, so for same power the range is x2 even without the difference in threshold. The SNR variation / readability about doubles the range again. Also then you have 4W rather than 0.5W, but a very much less efficient aerial, so could easily be only the same ERP if using a short centre coil loaded whip or large rubber duck.

Taildragon

Watty

You have an HF manpack which is designed to be used by a trained radio operator. The same unit can be fitted into a larger frame and used in both soft-skinned and armoured vehicles and marine craft.

This is not what the OP is asking about. The military do not use such sets for personal comms, they are just not suitable.

The "advantages" of SSB are totally irrelevant to the proposed scenario. For personal comms in the arena described by the OP, military forces typically use 70-80 MHz FM sets of 10W output (usually with a low power setting of 0.25 to 0.5 W available).

A typical set would have channelised frequencies, preset squelch, manual volume control, switchable microphone sensitivity and a flexible, almost indestructible antenna whip. These are "green boxes" designed to be used by frontline troops; soldiers who are trained to "kill people and break stuff", not operate radios.

These sets may/may not be frequency agile or have encryption, as the case may be, but the underlying technology does not change.

AM is far from dead in military comms circles, and for good reason.