The Corrib gas project should be suspended

NewVision

This project is:

• Approved by an Irish political regime that smacks of corruption - "This wealth will be leaving Ireland, thanks to a deal made between the corrupt Haughey government and multinational oil companies. Minister Ray Burke (later jailed for corruption) changed the law in 1987, reducing the State’s share in our offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero and abolishing royalties. In 1992, Minister Bertie Ahern reduced the tax rate for the profits made from the sale of these resources from 50% to 25%" The Gas & Oil Robbery | Shell to Sea
• Being delivered by "project splitting", i.e. in piecemeal parts, to circumvent normal planning procedures for an infrastructural project
• Financially disastrous to the Irish state (see above - NO royalties, NO ownership of the gas, and a mere 25% tax on profits after all costs, including decommissioning of infrastructure (in other words maybe no tax at all for many years))
• Not likely to contribute to Ireland's energy needs (we have no reason to believe that we will get any of the gas, and if we do we'll have to pay full market value)
• Environmentally damaging to plant and animal life in the area (where do I even start on this one - go and have a look for yourself at what's being done!)
• Likely to put human life at risk through unstable, mixed, unrefined gases being pumped at high pressures onshore
• Being forced through by illegal strongarm tactics by Gardai and private security - check out youtube or the Pipe Down documentary Pipe Down: New Documentary on the Corrib Gas Project | Shell to Sea
• An experimental pipeline design that has required constant modification due to faults being found with it

Just leaving it at that (and I could go on), it is questionable whether this project is of any benefit except to those who stand to benefit directly financially from it, i.e. those to whom either Shell or the Government have donated money for their compliance, those few who might gain employment in construction or service industry (which will happen anyway even if the project is improved), or those Gardai who are earning massive overtime money hassling protesters while other areas go understaffed.

Please consider what I've written, find out more for yourselves, question the motives of those who support the project (and those who oppose it of course - my motive is, if it can be inflicted on one isolated community it can be inflicted on yours or mine), and if you feel that you should,

Fighting Irish

lol

liammur

I've long argued could politicians be SO stupid to negotiate such a dreadful deal. Where did we get these donkeys from?

demonspawn

/signed

To be completely honest, I'm not so worried about the environmental impact or any of that. I just want our f**king gas back!! The government had no right to sell off such a massive national asset the way it did. Potential billions lost because some greedy jackasses who don't give a toss about this country.

oppenheimer1

NewVision wrote: »

[*]An experimental pipeline design that has required constant modification due to faults being found with it

I won't be signing your petition. Ireland needs the gas and it meeds exploration of the western basins. It isn't feasible for the state to set up a company to find these resources. Imagine the headlines, hundreds of millions wasted on dry wells. Thats exactly what has happened out there before they struck lucky. Hundreds of millions of the exploration companies money was wasted while looking for the gas.

I also take it you are not educated in the field of pipeline engineering. It is not uncommon for problems to arise on large civil engineering projects, especially if a novel technique is being used.

liammur

demonspawn wrote: »

/signed

To be completely honest, I'm not so worried about the environmental impact or any of that. I just want our f**king gas back!! The government had no right to sell off such a massive national asset the way it did. Potential billions lost because some greedy jackasses who don't give a toss about this country.

Valued at anywhere up to €180 billion.

NewVision

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I won't be signing your petition. Ireland needs the gas and it meeds exploration of the western basins. It isn't feasible for the state to set up a company to find these resources. Imagine the headlines, hundreds of millions wasted on dry wells. Thats exactly what has happened out there before they struck lucky. Hundreds of millions of the exploration companies money was wasted while looking for the gas.

I also take it you are not educated in the field of pipeline engineering. It is not uncommon for problems to arise on large civil engineering projects, especially if a novel technique is being used.

So you agree that Irish citizens are playing guinea pigs for Shell getting their lives threatened. Interesting.
And you also agree that Ireland, and within its people, are getting no loyalties from Shell selling Irish resources on the market. Very interesting.

Pete_Cavan

Im with oppenheimer1 on this one. Our government cant even do their primary role, governing the country, right, why would we want them to get involved in gas exploration?

I think there should be a higher tax placed on these companies who will make a lot of money out of this but I dont see any other reason for stopping them from tapping the gas field. I dont buy any of this it will damage the environment crap, thats all just hysteria NIMBYs always use.

This is in breach of the form charter so the link to the petition should be removed immediately. If the title of the thread is changed I think it should be kept open as it is an interesting issue and it would be good to discuss it, which board.ie is for, not promoting your own campaign.

Links to Petitions
There have been incidents of posts advertising petitions and online campaigns etc etc on recent emotive topics such as politicians' pay rises and provisional licences.

We have deleted all references to these, and will continue to do so. The rationale for this is simple: this is a discussion board. If you want to talk about a current emotive topic, feel free to do so.

I see the OP is currently online so maybe you could have the decency to sort this out yourself instead of waiting for a mod.

FlutterinBantam

I'll sign up if you:

State your home county
Occupation(if any)
Political affiliation
Employment status


otherwise stop bothering people with issues which are hijacked by 'rent-a crowd.

Apologies in advance if that description does not fit you.

demonspawn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I won't be signing your petition. Ireland needs the gas and it meeds exploration of the western basins. It isn't feasible for the state to set up a company to find these resources. Imagine the headlines, hundreds of millions wasted on dry wells. Thats exactly what has happened out there before they struck lucky. Hundreds of millions of the exploration companies money was wasted while looking for the gas.

I also take it you are not educated in the field of pipeline engineering. It is not uncommon for problems to arise on large civil engineering projects, especially if a novel technique is being used.

The State didn't have to set up any exploration companies, they hired one to find the oil in the first place. The problem here is after they found the oil, the State sold the site to Shell. The same thing happened in the south with Marathon oil years ago.

Marathon Ireland Ltd. is still getting millions out of the budget every year. 11 million in 2009 and 4 million this year(page 8). Oh yeah, and Marathon Ireland Ltd. was sold to Star Energy Group back in 2009. The Asians are making more out of our gas than we are.

NewVision

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'll sign up if you:

State your home county
Occupation(if any)
Political affiliation
Employment status


otherwise stop bothering people with issues which are hijacked by 'rent-a crowd.

Apologies in advance if that description does not fit you.

You seem to be bothered by what? Reading about the sellout of Irish resources to Shell not paying any royalties?
I'm prety much bothered by people don't give a shyte about our country and are only interested in spreading their own little hatred. But unfortunately I have to read that too when I'm on fora like this.

NewVision

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think there should be a higher tax placed on these companies who will make a lot of money out of this but I dont see any other reason for stopping them from tapping the gas field.

A main reason to sign the petition.

Pete_Cavan

NewVision wrote: »

A main reason to sign the petition.

Links to Petitions
There have been incidents of posts advertising petitions and online campaigns etc etc on recent emotive topics such as politicians' pay rises and provisional licences.

We have deleted all references to these, and will continue to do so. The rationale for this is simple: this is a discussion board. If you want to talk about a current emotive topic, feel free to do so.

A main reason for you to remove the link to the petition and never mention it again. Maybe your original post was in good faith but you have obsiously read my first post and are aware that you are in breach of the rules so please stop showing such disregard for what is an excellent discussion site and remove the link. If it was up to me you would be banned from the site by now but thats a decision for the mods.

FlutterinBantam

NewVision wrote: »

You seem to be bothered by what? Reading about the sellout of Irish resources to Shell not paying any royalties?
I'm prety much bothered by people don't give a shyte about our country and are only interested in spreading their own little hatred. But unfortunately I have to read that too when I'm on fora like this.

I seem to be bothered by people who have no affiliation with either the area, or those involved, and who for reasons best known to themselves,seek to create unrest and waste of taxpayer's money whilst for the most part contributing nothing themselves.

People who have nothing better to do but move from cause to cause for their own warped ideals all at my expense.


That's what bothers me.

galwayrush

[QUOTE=NewVision;67622244[*]Being forced through by illegal strongarm tactics by Gardai and private security - .[/QUOTE]

See where you lost a lot of people, :rolleyes:

sceptre

Kindly read the forum charter, conveniently stickied at the top of the Politics forum. It clearly states that petitions aren't facilitated on the forum. We're a discussion forum, not the online equivalent of a free supermarket noticeboard. I've removed the petition part, which isn't permitted by the forum charter (it's specifically mentioned in the forum charter). I've also edited the thread title to reflect a discussion, not a handy way for people to sign as the Duke of Wellington multiple times.

Feel free to discuss the actual issue in a rational way but do not pimp your petition again.

/mod

NewVision

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A main reason for you to remove the link to the petition and never mention it again. Maybe your original post was in good faith but you have obsiously read my first post and are aware that you are in breach of the rules so please stop showing such disregard for what is an excellent discussion site and remove the link. If it was up to me you would be banned from the site by now but thats a decision for the mods.

So excellent that the first answer to my opening post was this?
So excellent that you can openly shut me up?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I seem to be bothered by people who have no affiliation with either the area, or those involved, and who for reasons best known to themselves,seek to create unrest and waste of taxpayer's money whilst for the most part contributing nothing themselves.

People who have nothing better to do but move from cause to cause for their own warped ideals all at my expense.

That's what bothers me.

Since when are you paying for the voluntary work people are doing for a better future of our country?

NewVision

sceptre wrote: »

Kindly read the forum charter, conveniently stickied at the top of the Politics forum. It clearly states that petitions aren't facilitated on the forum. We're a discussion forum, not the online equivalent of a free supermarket noticeboard. I've removed the petition part, which isn't permitted by the forum charter (it's specifically mentioned in the forum charter). I've also edited the thread title to reflect a discussion, not a handy way for people to sign as the Duke of Wellington multiple times.

Feel free to discuss the actual issue in a rational way but do not pimp your petition again.

/mod

First of all I don't 'pimp' my petition. It's not my petition, it's a petition of Contact.ie.
Secondly, do you want to further disallow me to mention this petition?
And if yes, how would that conform to the freedom of speech?

Eliot Rosewater

Show me where I'm wrong here...

The government's initially charging 50% in royalties plus 50% in tax. Due to these added costs it's not viable for any oil company to set up. Hence, the government gets 50% of nothing, plus another 50% of the profits of nothing for good measure. €0, in short.

As a result, they decide to remove the royalties, and reduce the tax to 25%. The oil company, now seeing that it's a profitable enterprise, establishes itself in Ireland. As well as the 25% tax they pay on profits, they provide jobs and investment for the local community.

The moral would appear to be that 25% of something is better than 50% of nothing.

So am I erring somewhere?

sceptre

NewVision wrote: »

First of all I don't 'pimp' my petition. It's not my petition, it's a petition of Contact.ie.
Secondly, do you want to further disallow me to mention this petition?
And if yes, how would that conform to the freedom of speech?

Regardless of who you claim "owns" the petition, the charter no-petition rule applies. So, yeah, you don't get to pimp it here.

As for freedom of speech, everyone's free to talk about political and current affairs matters in this forum in a rational way, principally restricted only by the forum charter, which you haven't read. It's a community here that discusses politics, it doesn't exist for you to promote a petition.

When you get around to reading the forum charter, you'll note that queries about moderation are sent to the moderator by PM (convenient link to PM me). If you want to discuss it, that's what you do, it's all clearly explained in the forum charter, which I actively encourage you to read. As this stuff is available in a stickied thread marked "Politics charter", it's easy to find and applies to you as much as it does to every other forum member. If you came here to discuss the topic, that's cool - the thread's still open. If you came here just to pimp a petition, use your own website with your own rules or find a street corner.

Now, I suggest discussing the actual topic as there are some members interesting in engaging in the discussion, rather than wasting electrons by not reading the charter.

/mod

BehindTheScenes

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I won't be signing your petition. Ireland needs the gas and it meeds exploration of the western basins. It isn't feasible for the state to set up a company to find these resources. Imagine the headlines, hundreds of millions wasted on dry wells. Thats exactly what has happened out there before they struck lucky. Hundreds of millions of the exploration companies money was wasted while looking for the gas.

I also take it you are not educated in the field of pipeline engineering. It is not uncommon for problems to arise on large civil engineering projects, especially if a novel technique is being used.

Ah yes the word novel, just what people like to hear when you have a high pressured gas pipeline running through your back garden.

FlutterinBantam

NewVision wrote: »

So excellent that the first answer to my opening post was this?
So excellent that you can openly shut me up?



Since when are you paying for the voluntary work people are doing for a better future of our country?

I'm not paying a red cent for any voluntary work pal, however what I am paying for is the wages of the hundred or so gardaí who are stationed there to protect the facility.

I am also paying the dole for a good majority of the so called patriots who are 'working 'for the future of our country.

I would suggest you read the posts by the mod who points out the rules and who probably like myself takes issue with someone joining up and setting up petitions ab initio.

The future of our country will be decided by the taxpayer and the voter, not by some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises.

Not suggesting that you fall into that category but let me tell you John Q Taxpayer is not quite as big an idiot as some may think.

NewVision

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Show me where I'm wrong here...

The government's initially charging 50% in royalties plus 50% in tax. Due to these added costs it's not viable for any oil company to set up. Hence, the government gets 50% of nothing, plus another 50% of the profits of nothing for good measure. €0, in short.

As a result, they decide to remove the royalties, and reduce the tax to 25%. The oil company, now seeing that it's a profitable enterprise, establishes itself in Ireland. As well as the 25% tax they pay on profits, they provide jobs and investment for the local community.

The moral would appear to be that 25% of something is better than 50% of nothing.

So am I erring somewhere?

You are trying to tell us that the government was charging 50% royalties + 50% tax (=100%). Can you provide any source for that allegation?

The only country in Europe which charges NO royalties for oil companies is Ireland. The average charge in Europe is about 33%. Norway charges 76% royalties. It is delicate to mention that the Norwegian state company Statoil has a 36% stake in Corrib.

Ireland is also not getting anything from your mentioned 25% taxes for many years, because Shell can write off any expenditures in- and outside the country, even the anticipated cost of shutting down the operation.

So you might be well erring.

karma_

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm not paying a red cent for any voluntary work pal, however what I am paying for is the wages of the hundred or so gardaí who are stationed there to protect the facility.

I am also paying the dole for a good majority of the so called patriots who are 'working 'for the future of our country.

I would suggest you read the posts by the mod who points out the rules and who probably like myself takes issue with someone joining up and setting up petitions ab initio.

The future of our country will be decided by the taxpayer and the voter, not by some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises.

Not suggesting that you fall into that category but let me tell you John Q Taxpayer is not quite as big an idiot as some may think.

For someone with such a frugal attitude to the spending of your hard earned tax euro's, you don't seem at all bothered by what amounts to a massive missed opportunity for the government. Funny that.

FlutterinBantam

karma_ wrote: »

For someone with such a frugal attitude to the spending of your hard earned tax euro's, you don't seem at all bothered by what amounts to a massive missed opportunity for the government. Funny that.

Funny..funny in what way?

sesna

Stop the project when the thing is nearly built with well over a billion invested. Some awful headbangers in this country, I feel sorry for the gardai down there :pac:

NewVision

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm not paying a red cent for any voluntary work pal, however what I am paying for is the wages of the hundred or so gardaí who are stationed there to protect the facility.

I am also paying the dole for a good majority of the so called patriots who are 'working 'for the future of our country.

I would suggest you read the posts by the mod who points out the rules and who probably like myself takes issue with someone joining up and setting up petitions ab initio.

The future of our country will be decided by the taxpayer and the voter, not by some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises.

Not suggesting that you fall into that category but let me tell you John Q Taxpayer is not quite as big an idiot as some may think.

I don't think I'm your pal.
Maybe you watch that video and judge whether people protesting for their right of inviolacy of their health and live (which is a constitutional right!) are "some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises". These locals are glad getting some support from other people as their governments are leaving them in the rain seemingly for the interest of multinationals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ4_TZQTj3Y

FlutterinBantam

NewVision wrote: »

I don't think I'm your pal.
Maybe you watch that video and judge whether people protesting for their right of inviolacy of their health and live (which is a constitutional right!) are "some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises". These locals are glad getting some support from other people as their governments are leaving them in the rain seemingly for the interest of multinationals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ4_TZQTj3Y

I generally don't watch propaganda, especially left wing propaganda.


Sorry 'bout that

NewVision

sesna wrote: »

Stop the project when the thing is nearly built with well over a billion invested. Some awful headbangers in this country, I feel sorry for the gardai down there :pac:

Not shutting down. Renegotiating the deal between the state and the gas consortium. Shell to sea.

sesna

NewVision wrote: »

I don't think I'm your pal.
Maybe you watch that video and judge whether people protesting for their right of inviolacy of their health and live (which is a constitutional right!) are "some rabble, who like the fit ups of old ,move from area to area where the cause decrees and where opportunity arises". These locals are glad getting some support from other people as their governments are leaving them in the rain seemingly for the interest of multinationals.

Interesting considering the locals didn't endorse the only TD supporting the head bangers, as shown when SF TD Jerry Crowley lost his seat in the 2007 general election.

I suppose there is a difference when a rent-a-hippy thug knocks on your door asking you to sign yet another phoney petition, compared to when you have the anonymity of a ballot box.

NewVision

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I generally don't watch propaganda, especially left wing propaganda.

Sorry 'bout that

Who told you that it is 'left wing propaganda'?

Don't think you're really feeling sorry about.