The Corrib gas project should be suspended

NewVision

sesna wrote: »

Wouldn't blame the gardai for standing up to a S2S mob. The independent Garda Ombudsman dismissed all but one of over 150 complaints against the gardai. I refuse to look at anything in Indymedia, the site has no credibility.

Both Harnett and O Donnell were in jail for assaulting Gardai. Forget about Shell cops and all that. Gardai enforce the law, whether it be child abuse, murder or whatever. If you want to change the law go to your TDs. And if that fails theres an election every 4/5 years. Thuggery has ruined S2S campaign, they are their own worst enemies.

So you don't bother either to misquote me in shortening a sentence I posted and cut a word that says 'unproportional' to make 'Proportional' of it.
A person who refuses to look at Indymedia because they would have 'no credibility'. You just have proven your own 'credibility'.
The worst enemy of Shell To Sea are people like you, faking other people's comments, like faking the truth.

You've outed yourself by doing that, sesna.No more to say.

demonspawn

demonspawn wrote: »

So....if we're getting 25% corp tax + 5-15% PRRT, then why did we pay Marathon Petroleum Ireland Ltd. 11 million from the budget last year and 4 million this year (page 8)? God knows how much we've paid them since they started up in the south.

I really don't understand, could someone please explain?

I'd also like an opinion on this, or does nobody know why we are paying Marathon millions every year? I'll keep quoting myself until I get a reply from someone.

There's something rotten in the State of Ireland, and it's not the usual smell of BS emanating from Dail Eireann this time.

Jeboa Safari

demonspawn wrote: »

I guess you didn't watch the video. You don't like Rage or something?



I didn't see anyone pushing cars into a Gardai cordon. If they did we would see some kind of news story about it. I saw Gardai smashing windscreens (why?) and dragging people out of cars. I saw Gardai throwing people into ditches with complete disregard for their welfare. I saw Gardai swinging batons at peaceful protesters.

The Gardai have a responsibility to protect the citizens of this country. They do not have the responsibility to protect the interests of a private company by infringing on the rights of Irish citizens.

No I don't like Rage.
I watched abit of the video, then found an unedited rte clip on youtube, which said they tried to break the cordon. You also forgot to mention that a female garda was injured in the clashes.

There used to be a video of one of the shell to sea protestors gloating at the death of a young guard and taunting them saying that she hoped more of them would be run over too.

demonspawn

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

No I don't like Rage.
I watched abit of the video, then found an unedited rte clip on youtube, which said they tried to break the cordon. You also forgot to mention that a female garda was injured in the clashes.

Excellent! Care to post the video here? I honestly never saw it before and it may change my opinion on the protesters.

There used to be a video of one of the shell to sea protestors gloating at the death of a young guard and taunting them saying that she hoped more of them would be run over too.

I have no interest in what may have happened according to someone on boards. If you have evidence, please provide it. If you don't please refrain from making comments like that. If you actually name someone while making a comment like that, you leave yourself open to all sorts of legal problems.

demonspawn

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

No I don't like Rage.

Fair enough, it's not everyone's cup of tea. How about Natalie Merchant? You have anything against her? It's quite a good song too.

Note the savage boot to the face at 1:55 in the video.

The more I watch these videos the more I'm glad I stayed away. I'd probably be sitting in prison right now for GBH on a member of the Gardai.

NewVision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF-NH_pvxMM

FlutterinBantam

demonspawn wrote: »

Excellent! Care to post the video here? I honestly never saw it before and it may change my opinion on the protesters.



I have no interest in what may have happened according to someone on boards. If you have evidence, please provide it. If you don't please refrain from making comments like that. If you actually name someone while making a comment like that, you leave yourself open to all sorts of legal problems.

And I have no interest in what may have happened according to some vested interest propaganda machine.

You will probably find that most law abiding and taxpaying citizens don't attend organised violence events with the intention of filming what goes on .

By the same token the perps of the violence have every intention of provoking unrest and then filming the lawful efforts of the state to quell the violence.

You must think the posters in here are soft in the head pal?

Very disrespectful.

Padraig Mor

NewVision wrote: »

A person who refuses to look at Indymedia because they would have 'no credibility'. .

Indymedia has 'credibility' now???!!! You are aware they remove any comments which disagree with the blatant editorial bias (in this case, critical of the undemocratic S2S thugs)?

seanogseanog

You can see how easy it was for Shell. All they had to do was to find the gas, underestimate the size of the discovery, then find one or two dodgy politicians (burke, Ahern), give them a few quid...job done!

The paddies will just bicker amongst themselves while Shell profit.

If anyone is interested, have a look at the Shell in Nigeria case study. It was happening around the same time.

Aidan1

All they had to do was to find the gas, underestimate the size of the discovery, then find one or two dodgy politicians (burke, Ahern), give them a few quid...job done!

1. Shell didn't find the gas, Enterprise Oil did.

2. Have you information to suggest that the field size is anything other than the 1 TSCF widely reported? Because the size has not changed, not has there been any reporting of a change in the size of the field.

3. Ray Burke had responsibility for Exploration for a brief period in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Corrib was not found until 1996. And Shell were not involved at all until 2000/2001. So unless they invented time travel, there wasn't much point talking to him.

Jeboa Safari

demonspawn wrote: »

Excellent! Care to post the video here? I honestly never saw it before and it may change my opinion on the protesters.



I have no interest in what may have happened according to someone on boards. If you have evidence, please provide it. If you don't please refrain from making comments like that. If you actually name someone while making a comment like that, you leave yourself open to all sorts of legal problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz0zYd93nfo

I have zero sympathy for them. They were breaking the law, got off lightly in my opinion.

NewVision

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And I have no interest in what may have happened according to some vested interest propaganda machine.

You will probably find that most law abiding and taxpaying citizens don't attend organised violence events with the intention of filming what goes on .

By the same token the perps of the violence have every intention of provoking unrest and then filming the lawful efforts of the state to quell the violence.

You must think the posters in here are soft in the head pal?

Very disrespectful.

Would be juicy to know whose interests you really are supporting. Your allegation that the protesting people are organised provoking troubles with the intention to film them is more than bizzare.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Indymedia has 'credibility' now???!!! You are aware they remove any comments which disagree with the blatant editorial bias (in this case, critical of the undemocratic S2S thugs)?

I recommend to do the same with Irish Times, Independent etc. and see what outcome you'd get there. :rolleyes:

Eliot Rosewater

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz0zYd93nfo

Cheers for the link! As can be seen, the protesters were acting in a provocative manner and brought the physical Garda reaction upon themselves. Their claims that they are hard done by a farcical.

I note that my previous post wasn't responded too. Of course, no one here is obliged to respond to posts, but it would be nice all the same!

NewVision wrote: »

I recommend to do the same with Irish Times, Independent etc. and see what outcome you'd get there.

Do those papers delete comments from their websites that they do not find to their liking?

FlutterinBantam

NewVision wrote: »

Would be juicy to know whose interests you really are supporting. Your allegation that the protesting people are organised provoking troubles with the intention to film them is more than bizzare.

I have no problem in stating whose interests I support, the interests of the Irish taxpayer.This country has more to do than tying up hundreds of gardai to control what can only be described as 'rent-a-mob' the vast majority of whom have no connection with the area at all.

You seem to have led a very sheltered existence my friend, if you find that the allegation of protesters provoking the security forces to use violence is "bizarre".

The presentation of those clips and the background music and lead in graphics surely proves that.

You are not dealing with 10 year old children here;)

unit 1

NewVision wrote: »

Amazing that people still believe we need the multinationals that much because 'they're creating jobs'. Not even 5% of our jobs come from them. But they dictate the conditions.
Many of those multinatinal corporations come, get on the gravy train, and leave us with the mess behind. And that happens all over the world, called globalisation of economy. The project itself is not that big job creator as advertised by those companies. The security for example are hired from eastern European states and russia.

A different design, renegotiating the deal, and that would create even more jobs.

Yes, look at irish steel, totally predictable what would happen, but of course "safeguards were put in place" and look at the mess ispat left behind them.
Funny actually how Dan Boyle never seems to mention the cleanup there anymore. I wonder how it's coming along, and who's paying for it.:rolleyes:

NewVision

Aidan1 wrote: »

...
2. Have you information to suggest that the field size is anything other than the 1 TSCF widely reported? Because the size has not changed, not has there been any reporting of a change in the size of the field.
...

There might be even more than they're admitting. Else Shell wouldn't be intending to drill a new well near the site of Corrib gas (Irish Times, 14 June 2010).

unit 1

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The point I was trying to make, that I will now repeat, is that if the tax rate was 40% (or 50% etc) it might have been non-viable for a gas company to set up, hence the Government would have received less tax.

Scofflaw expands upon this point in the post Scarab80 linked to. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66163445&postcount=31



The fact that Dell pulling out of Limerick caused such havoc is proof enough that, yes, we do benefit from multi-national corporations being here.

So we accecpt the tax rate that the oil company says will make it viable for them to bring the gas ashore.
Maybe you should write to your local TD and tell him what paye rate you will pay so that it is viable for you to stay in work. Good luck with that.

Maybe I'm cynical, but if you ask anyone (including a giant profitable oil company) how much tax they should pay I'm guessing they would say a big fat 0.

Why did you round down your figure to 40% instead of say 32.48%, because in reality most ordinary people dont understand (including myself) the complexities of the numerous issues involved in these companies and their deal with our government.
What I do have a grasp of is human nature and greed, which applies as much to a large oil company as it would to a well paid government td or minister claiming too much expenses (or walking around money as one described it:D)

Bottom line, government minister, who only cares about himself can negotiate away rights because of, inepitude, ignorance , corruption, shortsightedness, political expediency, arrogance, or all of the above.
Question, were any of the above in short supply in FF when the deal was signed?

NewVision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3pvSzuCAVI

NewVision

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I have no problem in stating whose interests I support, the interests of the Irish taxpayer.This country has more to do than tying up hundreds of gardai to control what can only be described as 'rent-a-mob' the vast majority of whom have no connection with the area at all.

You seem to have led a very sheltered existence my friend, if you find that the allegation of protesters provoking the security forces to use violence is "bizarre".

The presentation of those clips and the background music and lead in graphics surely proves that.

You are not dealing with 10 year old children here;)

First of all, I'm not your 'friend'.

Secondly if you state that you support the interest of the Irish taxpayer, then it makes it even looking more bizarre to me that you vehemently defend the Great Gas Giveaway which is happening there.

You seemingly mistake cause for effect if you conclude the presentation of these videos would have anything to do with the cause of the violence. There was no director sitting in the background shouting, "Violence up now."

...

I often read the argument that protesters would not have any local connection to the place.

First, it is a national issue. Non existing royalties are concerning the whole country.
Second, many people are also afraid that the same could happen in their area as well.

I just want to mention the word "solidarity" here which is seemingly becoming more rare in our society.

seanogseanog

Aidan1 wrote: »

1. Shell didn't find the gas, Enterprise Oil did.

2. Have you information to suggest that the field size is anything other than the 1 TSCF widely reported? Because the size has not changed, not has there been any reporting of a change in the size of the field.

3. Ray Burke had responsibility for Exploration for a brief period in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Corrib was not found until 1996. And Shell were not involved at all until 2000/2001. So unless they invented time travel, there wasn't much point talking to him.

1. I meant indirectly
2. Shell said it was 1 TSCF, not anyone else. you believe them?
3. Shell think very long term. Finds are not always disclosed instantly for good reason. Ahern, burke and shell in a billion pound industry!!???? Cmon!

humanji

NewVision wrote: »

First of all, under the current contract nobody can force Shell to sell the gas to Ireland. They can sell it to whom they want.

Minister Ray Burke who changed the law in 1987, reducing the State’s share in our offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero and abolishing royalties, is a convicted criminal. So far to your Chavez/Pution style.

But most important, the state has all the right to renegotiate the contract as the companies have been constantly breaching this treaty themselves.

Here what the contact says:

I don't get where that snippet of the contract says it can be renegotiated. That just says the minister can pause the processing of the plant to investigate one of the listed risks.

veXual

So if the project was taxed appropriately NewVision would you still be opposed it?

demonspawn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And I have no interest in what may have happened according to some vested interest propaganda machine.

What, you mean the mainstream Irish media like RTE?

You will probably find that most law abiding and taxpaying citizens don't attend organised violence events with the intention of filming what goes on.

By the same token the perps of the violence have every intention of provoking unrest and then filming the lawful efforts of the state to quell the violence.

Yeah, most Irish people won't attend demonstrations even if they feel very strongly about what's being protested. It says more about the Irish people as a whole really.

And you're implication that these people were just winding up the Gardai in order to film the ensuing clashes is disrespectful to the Gardai. You really think they're like dogs on a chain, easily coerced to violence by a handful of smelly hippies? You don't have much faith in the Gardai do you? Yeah, well neither do I.

You must think the posters in here are soft in the head pal?

No, just a few. And I'm certainly not your pal, buddy.

Very disrespectful.

Your new sig?

demonspawn

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz0zYd93nfo

I have zero sympathy for them. They were breaking the law, got off lightly in my opinion.

Ok, I'll give you that. It was a stupid decision to have a vehicle there. Unfortunately, one bad decision can do a lot of damage to a protest. Personally, I think your one is a bit of a nutter anyway. That doesn't change my opinion of the murderous Shell corporation or the ape-men we have in the Gardai.

So what do you think of the video I posted? You think that was fair and proportionate violence? Punching women in the stomach and kicking people in the face? Baton charging a line of peaceful protesters?

Honestly, I'd love your opinion on the amount of force used by our beloved guardians of the peace.

demonspawn

veXual wrote: »

So if the project was taxed appropriately NewVision would you still be opposed it?

If it was a better deal and it wasn't Shell, with it's long history of oppression, murder, and destruction then yes. We need that gas to pull this country out of the hole it's in.

demonspawn

demonspawn wrote: »

So....if we're getting 25% corp tax + 5-15% PRRT, then why did we pay Marathon Petroleum Ireland Ltd. 11 million from the budget last year and 4 million this year (page 8)? God knows how much we've paid them since they started up in the south.

I really don't understand, could someone please explain?

And once again, quoting for truth.

Last time though, and if no answers come this way I'll just assume nobody has the slightest clue as to why we paid Marathon Petro millions of euros over the last few year.

FlutterinBantam

Whether you have faith or not in the Gardaí is not the relevant subject of this thread.

People have the right to go to work without a coterie of agitators and professional protesters who will bite at any hook stopping them.

Law of the land is the base line here buddy.

Jeboa Safari

demonspawn wrote: »

Ok, I'll give you that. It was a stupid decision to have a vehicle there. Unfortunately, one bad decision can do a lot of damage to a protest. Personally, I think your one is a bit of a nutter anyway. That doesn't change my opinion of the murderous Shell corporation or the ape-men we have in the Gardai.

So what do you think of the video I posted? You think that was fair and proportionate violence? Punching women in the stomach and kicking people in the face? Baton charging a line of peaceful protesters?

Honestly, I'd love your opinion on the amount of force used by our beloved guardians of the peace.

I don't know if it was fair or proportionate violence. That videos been edited so I don't know what went on before it, it looks extreme in some parts, but it could be justified. I assume they are not cooperating with the gardai.

demonspawn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

People have the right to go to work without a coterie of agitators and professional protesters who will bite at any hook stopping them.

Eh what? You ever heard of worker's strikes? You know the ones where you'd be called a scab (and worse) for crossing the picket line? Sure, people have the right to go to work. People also have the right to protest against what the see as injustice and corruption.

"Professional protesters"? I think you're giving them more credit than they deserve really. I've seen "professional" protesters. They would have had that entire location locked down for months, chaining themselves to diggers, burying their arms into the ground, all sorts of crazy stuff.

demonspawn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Whether you have faith or not in the Gardaí is not the relevant subject of this thread.

Having faith in an organization that has a legal responsibility to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the citizens of this country is pretty damn relevant to this discussion, considering that organization seems to have been hired out to Shell to protect it's assets in this country.

Do we have Gardai in every shop and post office in the country, just in case they are robbed? Then what the hell are they all doing in Mayo? Surely the Gardai come to the scene of a crime after the crime has been committed, then they investigate and press charges accordingly. This preemtive policing is pretty unusual. It only takes 2-3 Gardai to sit in their cars to watch what's going on. If laws are broken then they can do their job.