Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't accuse me of ducking the issue, and take some care about what positions you ascribe to people.


I did not introduce the holocaust comparison, and I wouldn't do so because it is disproportionate. But a disproportionate parallel can still be a parallel. I entered the discussion when you swatted it aside without showing any sign of knowing that the Roma were also holocaust victims.

You did duck the issue. I said it was an offensive comparison - then you said Romas were killed in the holocaust. That is an irrelevent point because the current Romas are being deported - not exterminated.

When Laminations said

You seem to overlook that this isn't a French extermination programme, and it isn't just about Roma - it is targeting illegals - 300 camps, 200 of which are majority Roma and will be tackled first. The comparisons to the Holocaust are disgusting

you ignored what he said about the holocaust and focused on the equality issue.

I have no problem with the law being applied in an even-handed way; I do have a problem with the application of the law being based on ethnicity.

As per my previous post - in agreement here

Laminations

I would have an issue with due process but this is not a Roma specific issue, none of the illegals will get due process, while that is bad it is not evidence of discrimination which is what is being claimed in this thread.

wes

wes wrote: »

To help make decisions........

What are you talking about? Let me remind you as to what we were talking about:

wes wrote:

Did they mention any such reason in there memo? Oh wait they didn't. I would figure if they had such reason, they would have mentioned them and things would be based on fact and figures, which aren't mentioned at all.

Deleted User wrote:

Unless the reasons were part of a previous memo, and generally accepted by everyone the report/memo was supposed to be seen by. There is generally no requirement to spell out every definition every time a memo is issued.

wes wrote:

Well considering that I have seen no mention of figures at all during the entire affair, it is rather odd.

We don't have the complete history of documents issued in regards to the deportment of illegals in these camps. Therefore, there is no reason to suggest that this particular leaked document is the only document of its kind on the subject. Its likely that the reasons for the placing of a priority of the Roma Gypsies would be listed in a previous document.

So why single out the Roma then? Is there any need to prioritize them above other groups? Seems like a pretty clear cut case to me.

I seriously don't see the problem with stating that some grouping within the whole is a priority. Its fairly standard when it comes to any government initiative. If the initiative runs out of steam or investment, then the most important aspects of the initiative are completed.

The simple fact is that we don't know why the French feel that the Roma deserve to receive a priority in being deported. The French government have made references to criminality, which the Italians did a few years ago when they pursued the same course. Are those claims warranted? I don't know.

But it keeps coming back to one important point. Regardless of their ethnic background the people in those camps were deemed to be illegal in their settlement under French law, and served notice to be deported. If the initiative is successful, then everyone will be deported. If the initiative fails, then the majority of the Roma will be deported, and the rest (and other groupings) will be deported at another time.

The thing I find so interesting about this thread is that posters are not complaining that the French are deporting the inhabitants of these camps, but rather that the Roma were placed as a priority. Seems rather messed up, in my eyes.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But thats patently not the case here. The French have targetted a specific ethnic group and are actively rounding them up for deportation WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

Even if you agree with the action, as you clearly do, its in violation of French, EU and UN law.

No-one is disputing the right of the French to remove illegal immigrants, especially those who are involved in crime, but there is a clear problem with their approach on this one, and a bigger issue in terms of the linking of migrants to crime, when the stats show that is not actually the case.

If there are swaths of the community which are living in France illegally, then it should be up to a tribunal or Minister to deport them. If you dont have immigration papers which are in order, or at all, what can be done about it ? In fact, EU Law may well validate the process on grounds that "Due Process" amounts to a ministerial order of deportation on unambiguous grounds, such as illegal residence in France. If such grounds and such procedures are put forward, I believe France's position could well be validated.

OhNoYouDidn't

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But thats patently not the case here. The French have targetted a specific ethnic group and are actively rounding them up for deportation WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

Even if you agree with the action, as you clearly do, its in violation of French, EU and UN law.

No-one is disputing the right of the French to remove illegal immigrants, especially those who are involved in crime, but there is a clear problem with their approach on this one, and a bigger issue in terms of the linking of migrants to crime, when the stats show that is not actually the case.

Err, you are disputing the right of the French to remove illegal immigrants...

And where are these stats?

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you talking about? Let me remind you as to what we were talking about:

I have no idea what your asking for at this point.

Deleted User wrote: »

We don't have the complete history of documents issued in regards to the deportment of illegals in these camps. Therefore, there is no reason to suggest that this particular leaked document is the only document of its kind on the subject. Its likely that the reasons for the placing of a priority of the Roma Gypsies would be listed in a previous document.

Great, so I take it they would have produced it to the EU, to stop legal proceedings then.......

Deleted User wrote: »

I seriously don't see the problem with stating that some grouping within the whole is a priority. Its fairly standard when it comes to any government initiative. If the initiative runs out of steam or investment, then the most important aspects of the initiative are completed.

Yes, and they could group by anything but ethnicity. There is no reason to group on that basis.

Deleted User wrote: »

The simple fact is that we don't know why the French feel that the Roma deserve to receive a priority in being deported. The French government have made references to criminality, which the Italians did a few years ago when they pursued the same course. Are those claims warranted? I don't know.

The fact that there making the Roma a priority is what is getting them into trouble.

Deleted User wrote: »

But it keeps coming back to one important point. Regardless of their ethnic background the people in those camps were deemed to be illegal in their settlement under French law, and served notice to be deported. If the initiative is successful, then everyone will be deported. If the initiative fails, then the majority of the Roma will be deported, and the rest (and other groupings) will be deported at another time.

No one has any issues with people who are there illegally being deported. People have issues with prioritizing one ethnic group above the others.

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing I find so interesting about this thread is that posters are not complaining that the French are deporting the inhabitants of these camps, but rather that the Roma were placed as a priority. Seems rather messed up, in my eyes.

So are you for against the deportations then? My problem is that the law is not being applied equally.

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You did duck the issue. I said it was an offensive comparison - then you said Romas were killed in the holocaust. That is an irrelevent point because the current Romas are being deported - not exterminated....

It is a disproportionate comparison, but the fact that Roma were, in significant numbers, victims of the holocaust makes it less than offensive.

Do you think that antisemitism in Germany in 1920 amounted to a consensus that all Jews should be killed?

Martin 2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Thanks for that. I would agree with your sentiments that to prioritise a group on purely ethnic grounds is wrong.

I just wonder was there a prelude to this. As in had it previously been established there were higher rates of crime on the Roma camps. If not then it was pure racism to give those camps priority

If by prelude you're refering to another document or article, the answer is I don't know.
If you're refering to a prelude within the directive explaining the reasons for prioritising the evacuation of Roma camps, the answer is no. In fact the rest of the memo talks about having weekly progress reports to ensure that the evacuations are taking place according to a schedule. It mentions that operations since the July 28th against illegal camps have only resulted in a limited number of people being 'directed towards the frontier'. It mentions that the operations should not be limited to "operations of dispersion" and that a simple displacement of camp occupants should not be allowed. I'm afraid it's all very clinical.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It is a disproportionate comparison, but the fact that Roma were, in significant numbers, victims of the holocaust makes it less than offensive.

Do you think that antisemitism in Germany in 1920 amounted to a consensus that all Jews should be killed?

A group of Jewish guys were caught robbing in Pennys last weekend and thrown out. Its like the bloody holocaust how they are treating those Jews :rolleyes:

Jews got kicked out of a shop for doing something illegal =/= Jews getting gassed during the Holocaust for being Jewish.

That comparison is as ridiculous and offensive as the comparison of Roma being deported from France because they are illegal to Roma being gassed to death during the Holocaust because they were Roma.

It is not merely a disproportionate comparison

scr123

Last time in Paris in 2008 we were in the Eiffel Tower area and there was at least 30 of the Roma up to their tricks. Remember thinking, how do you attempt to change the way of life and give their kids a chance of a better future. No matter how hard one tries not to be prejudiced there is no escaping a sense of anger when people make no effort to change

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

there is no escaping a sense of anger when people make no effort to change

LOL at someone who remains an ardent FF supporter

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

A group of Jewish guys were caught robbing in Pennys last weekend and thrown out. Its like the bloody holocaust how they are treating those Jews :rolleyes:

Jews got kicked out of a shop for doing something illegal =/= Jews getting gassed during the Holocaust for being Jewish.

That comparison is as ridiculous and offensive as the comparison of Roma being deported from France because they are illegal to Roma being gassed to death during the Holocaust because they were Roma.

It is not merely a disproportionate comparison

Let's have an honest simile. Insert "Other people who were caught robbing in Penny's last weekend were not thrown out".

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's have an honest simile. Insert "Other people who were caught robbing in Penny's last weekend were not thrown out".

They are targeting illegals, other illegals will get deported too. The same way anyone caught robbing in Pennys would get thrown out.

Others have said it is okay to prioritise based on criminality or camp size

France’s Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said on Monday that over the past 18 months crime committed by Roma people has increased by 259 percent in Paris alone.

“Today, in Paris, the reality is that almost one in five perpetrators of a theft is a Romanian,” Hortefeux said on Wednesday at the joint press conference with immigration minister Eric Besson. “This is not about stigmatising this or that population, but we cannot close our eyes to reality.”

Besson went on to say, "We must broaden the possibilities for issuing deportation orders (for people who pose) a threat to public order by repeated acts of theft or aggressive begging." Besson told reporters he planned to add two amendments to this end to an immigration bill that will be presented to parliament late next month.

While I would not accept statistics like this to be used to deport all Roma, the Roma they are prioritising already fall into a group of illegals.


Oh and making the simile more 'honest' still does not excuse comparisons with the Holocaust.

P. Breathnach

France’s Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said on Monday that over the past 18 months crime committed by Roma people has increased by 259 percent in Paris alone.

This claim has been disputed on the basis that France does not keep data on the ethnicity of those who commit crime.

wes

wes wrote: »

Great, so I take it they would have produced it to the EU, to stop legal proceedings then.......

You said earlier that legal proceedings may occur, not that they have nor that they've even been properly considered. So there's no reason to release any more information, since the document that has created so much conversation was leaked in the first place.

The fact that there making the Roma a priority is what is getting them into trouble.

So if they made those without permanent jobs a priority then you wouldn't have an issue? Grand.

No one has any issues with people who are there illegally being deported. People have issues with prioritizing one ethnic group above the others.

Ok, this is simply about putting a priority on one section. Fine, set a deadline, and all those determined to be deported, should be done so prior to this date.

So are you for against the deportations then? My problem is that the law is not being applied equally.

I'm neither for nor against the deportations. I believe that the French have the right to enforce their laws.

Nodin

P. Breathnach wrote: »

This claim has been disputed on the basis that France does not keep data on the ethnicity of those who commit crime.

Indeed...its against the whole "egalite" thing.

scr123

Laminations wrote: »

LOL at someone who remains an ardent FF supporter

Lol at someone who thinks the ABFF are going to solve a few problems the country has right now.

Lol at all the ABFF who have not a hope in hell of repeating what happened under ff, 1m extra in the workforce, including a fair amount of Romanians from where the ABFF type of person would send the Roma Gypsies !!

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Because the French have decided that ALL Roma have to go, rather than arrest, try and deport individual criminals.

Its the tarring of an entire ethnic group with one brush and then following it up with collective action that's the problem.

Europe should be far beyond this sort of attitude

I am not trying to sound mean or bad,but arent the majority of them into pickpocketing and house robberies and prostitution and drugs car ringers.
They also protect eachother from the law.
It was featured on the news other day.Even child exploitation they have found rampant in these camps.
It was found in the camps as i could see in the news to be rampant with all the above.
I recall one incident of a roma girl brought here to Ireland to marry at the age of 12 or 13 and taken in by social services for protection.She then disappeared from there.
Also something about a Roma from Romania who were living on the M50 by the airport begging,and has a mansion back in Romania.
Again do they send their children to school?

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed...its against the whole "egalite" thing.

And of course I'm sure if they tried it, certain posters from this thread would be up in arms over that too.

So the French aren't allowed say Roma are committing crime and they aren't allowed to record whether Roma are committing crime but the Roma they will be deporting are all committing a crime, they are there illegally, and they are being prioritised because, yes possibly anecdotally, the Roma illegal immigrants are more involved in crime, but they cant show this with figures because people would object to them keeping data on the ethnicity of those who commit crime.

So the only way for them to proceed is to prioritise large camps (as wes suggested) but what if the large camps are mostly law abiding and it is the smaller ones where the trouble is? Do you then suggest they switch their priorities to the smaller camps? or to the inconvenient camps (as Nodin suggested)?

All operational and logistical nightmares, and thats why in France they dont put knicker twisters in charge of such deportations

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It is a disproportionate comparison, but the fact that Roma were, in significant numbers, victims of the holocaust makes it less than offensive.

Do you think that antisemitism in Germany in 1920 amounted to a consensus that all Jews should be killed?

No it doesn't. How can you possibly come to that conclusion?

Deporting illegal Roma from France in2010 simply cannot in any way be compared to nazi extermination of holocaust victims without causing extreme offence to the latter group.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

You said earlier that legal proceedings may occur, not that they have nor that they've even been properly considered. So there's no reason to release any more information, since the document that has created so much conversation was leaked in the first place.

Well, it would certainly help clear things up.

Deleted User wrote: »

So if they made those without permanent jobs a priority then you wouldn't have an issue? Grand.

Yes, as that is you know an actual reason....

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, this is simply about putting a priority on one section. Fine, set a deadline, and all those determined to be deported, should be done so prior to this date.

No, its singling out one ethnic group.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm neither for nor against the deportations. I believe that the French have the right to enforce their laws.

Yes, and no one here has questioned that. However, singling out ethnic groups is also against the EU law, which the French signed up for.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

And of course I'm sure if they tried it, certain posters from this thread would be up in arms over that too.

So the French (......)deportations

You might educate yourself as to the principles on which the French try run to their country before ranting on any further. French principles, not EU ones.

gurramok

It seems some posters think that the French are a bunch of racist liars by doing what they are doing.

I find it ironic how a respectful sovereign state is labelled in such a derogatory way by foreigners.

wes

gurramok wrote: »

It seems some posters think that the French are a bunch of racist liars by doing what they are doing.

Some examples, where people referred to the French in such a way. I must have missed it.

gurramok wrote: »

I find it ironic how a respectful sovereign state is labelled in such a derogatory way by foreigners.

Yes, hyperbole is always helpful....

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

You might educate yourself as to the principles on which the French try run to their country before ranting on any further. French principles, not EU ones.

What?

Ranting?

Below is a graphic that maybe you'll understand.

Basing opinions of all Roma on the strength or weighting of the blue arrow i.e. using instances of illegal activity (illegal immigration) in the Roma population to tar all Roma is racist and discriminatory.

Thats not what is being done, we are starting with the population (illegal immigrants), not higher at the ethnic level.

Basing opinions of all Roma (at the ethnic level) on the strength of the red arrow (which may suggest the majority of illegal immigrants are Roma is illogical and wrong. However in terms of prioritising how to deal with the population (illegal immigrants), it seems a fair metric

In addition, the strength of the green arrow which may suggest that Roma illegal immigrants are involved in other criminality (to a greater extent than non Roma illegals) also seems like a legitimate basis to prioritise, although you say the French dont keep this data. Yes there will be some if not many Roma illegal immigrants not involved in other forms of criminality that will be prioritised but they are to be deported anyway, as are all the other ethnicities who are illegal.

]

caseyann

gurramok wrote: »

It seems some posters think that the French are a bunch of racist liars by doing what they are doing.

I find it ironic how a respectful sovereign state is labelled in such a derogatory way by foreigners.

Here in lies the problem and the hole in the process of immigration and deportation and asylum seekers. Try and fix the state of your country by removing said illegals and you become racist or discriminatory.Not the latter of it is well due and about time something was done.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

Here in lies the problem and the hole in the process of immigration and deportation and asylum seekers. Try and fix the state of your country by removing said illegals and you become racist or discriminatory.Not the latter of it is well due and about time something was done.

I'm goint to try one last time. The issue is not about France deporting illegal immigrants.

The issue is explicitly targetting an ethnic group and deporting them en mass without due legal process in violation of French, EU and UN law.

OhNoYouDidn't

Deleted User wrote: »

Err, you are disputing the right of the French to remove illegal immigrants...

I am questioning the manner in how they are going about it. You deport individuals on a case by case basis after a court hearing. Not a large group of people you suspect may be illegal on the whim of a police officer.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I am questioning the manner in how they are going about it. You deport individuals on a case by case basis after a court hearing. Not a large group of people you suspect may be illegal on the whim of a police officer.

If there are no immigration papers, and they are in a place illegally, then it is open to the minister to deport them. The figures will reflect the number of Roma who are living in France legally. Thus, an objective decision can be taken.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

If there are no immigration papers, and they are in a place illegally, then it is open to the minister to deport them. The figures will reflect the number of Roma who are living in France legally. Thus, an objective decision can be taken.

It is. But in this case, the current process of deportation is not being adhered to. Therein is the entire fecking point.