Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Try reading the pieces I cited. The entire controversy is about unequal application of the law. It's about targeting Roma.

Illegal camps are what is being targeted, just as burglary was what was being targeted in my example. The illegal Roma are being prioritised possibly due to numbers involved and to criminality (as the black burglar was prioritised in my example due to similar factors). Now of course I dont know this for definite but I am willing to entertain possible reasons other than because they are simply Roma. They are not being prioritised simply because they are Roma but because there is an overlap of factors (just like the gardai aren't targeting the black burglar in my example simply because he is black but because of the nature of his buglaries). Out of 300 camps, 200 are Roma which shows they are in the majority. There have also been reports of prostitution, trafficking, and other criminal activity in the Roma camps which make these camps a priority. If the Roma camps were in the minority and relatively law abiding compared to other illegal immigrant camps then you'd have a point about it being more about ethnicity and less about enforcing the laws. The fasct is you dont think these casmps should be prioritised even though they are greater in number and supposedly greater in criminal activity. And why do you believe this? Because the poor illegals involved are Roima.


PS. just to pull you up on a previous point, the thread title is about 'expulsion of Roma' so it is very much about deportations and not just camp dismantling.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Illegal camps are what is being targeted, just as burglary was what was being targeted in my example. The illegal Roma are being prioritised possibly due to numbers involved and to criminality (as the black burglar was prioritised in my example due to similar factors). Now of course I dont know this for definite but I am willing to entertain possible reasons other than because they are simply Roma.

So - despite no evidence for your case - you're willing to speculate and ignore evidence to the contrary.

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Try reading the pieces I cited. The entire controversy is about unequal application of the law. It's about targeting Roma.

Mmm...... In what virtually every media piece describes as Roma camps.

Let's be honest here - the "crime" is not being PC about it - as no-one appears to be arguing for the continued existence of these camps nor offering their lands for their continuance or their societies for their, ahem, "integration".

Chinasea

Seems like a lot of postings are very self righteous and hiding behind the 'illegal' immigrant thing and using that as an excuse to run the Roma out of it. This is rich coming from an nation who for the last 60 years fled to the USA in their thousands illegally. The British owe us noting - that auld card has well and truly been played. Oh yea, and one last thing, since when did our Irish Roma behave in a legal manner in the UK?

opo

Chinasea wrote: »

Seems like a lot of postings are very self righteous and hiding behind the 'illegal' immigrant thing and using that as an excuse to run the Roma out of it.

Perhaps in a perfect PC world - the only applicable laws would be "anti-racist" ones.

Chinasea wrote: »

This is rich coming from an nation who for the last 60 years fled to the USA in their thousands illegally.

And as has been suggested before - what the USA does about them is their business entirely.

Chinasea wrote: »

Oh yea, and one last thing, since when did our Irish Roma behave in a legal manner in the UK?

What an interesting and bizzare topic that would be. Perhaps you can kick it off and leave this one as is.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

So - despite no evidence for your case - you're willing to speculate and ignore evidence to the contrary.

Hahaha rich coming from the side that argues based on ifs and buts. Your entire case is speculation mired in confirmation bias. The prioritisation could be happening for many other factors which overlap and interact with ethnicity but you refuse to acknowledge any of them. Out of the 300 camps in question, 200 are Roma suggesting they make up a large proportion. That's evidence unless you care to provide figures that show illegal Roma only make up a small minority of overall illegals. Do you want to provide any evidence that the French are unfairly targeting Illegal Roma just because they are Roma? I mean they aren't targeting legal Roma, nor are they prioritising camps where there is a minority of Roma and then selectively just taking out the minority Roma.

Looking at the venn diagram again the rationale for having the illegal subset overlap more on the side of Roma is because of them having 200 of the 300 camps, provide evidence to contradict this rationale. The criminal element being more present in illegal Roma encampments comes from what I read and even if it is anecdotal at least I am recognising that there are other factors that may be determining the prioritisation rather than simple ethnicity.

Do you share the idiotic view that the French should now start housing these illegals?

Laminations

For nyone just joining us this is how this thread has progressed:

BHB: oh no France is kicking out all Roma

Response: aren't they just deporting illegal immigrants?

BHB: but the Roma?

Response: yes quite a few Roma are illegal, they will be targeted, the legal Roma will not

BHB; but they are prioritising the illegal Roma?

Response: well someone needs to go first, ya gotsta have some order in these operations otherwise it'd be a logistical nightmare

BHB: but they are prioritising Roma simply because they are Roma

Response: how do you know that?

BHB: because they said they are prioritising the Roma?

Response: but there are many factors which may overlap and interact, 200 of the 300 camps are illegal Roma making them the bulk and reports say there is increased crime and trouble in these camps. Imagine these examples and maybe you'll appreciate there are numerous valid reasons for prioritising

BHB: I'll ignore all your examples and maintain that it is JUST BECAUSE they are Roma and speculate completely that 'what if the operation stops after the Roma' so it's just discriminatory

Response: you'll have to wait and see if the operation stops to draw a conclusion that it's discriminatory

BHB: I don't want to wait, knickers can't be untwisted, France should house all the illegals and show real concern

Response: :rolleyes: ooookaaay

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

200 of the 300 camps are illegal Roma making them the bulk and reports say there is increased crime and trouble in these camps.

.....an accusation from a minister defending a previously made decision, if I recall.

What does BHB stand for?

P. Breathnach

Nodin wrote: »

... What does BHB stand for?

I think I know, but I suspect that you will not get an answer.

Nodin

Indeed. Its best to confirm these things though. I've been wrong in the past.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed. Its best to confirm these things though. I've been wrong in the past.

Out of curiousity, what do you suspect BHB stands for?

Chinasea

Chinasea wrote: »

Seems like a lot of postings are very self righteous and hiding behind the 'illegal' immigrant thing and using that as an excuse to run the Roma out of it.

Explain to me how looking to the immigration law of the country is self-righteous? Seems like many posters are hiding behind the "discrimination" thingy and ignoring the realities of the situation.

This is rich coming from an nation who for the last 60 years fled to the USA in their thousands illegally. The British owe us noting - that auld card has well and truly been played.

Only the last 60 years? You might want to add on a few more decades.. But in any case the US has deported Irish nationals who were there illegally. As for the UK, you might want to read back a bit about what I said about that.

Oh yea, and one last thing, since when did our Irish Roma behave in a legal manner in the UK?

We have Irish Travelers, not Irish Roma. There is a world of difference between the two, and you're showing your lack of knowledge on the subject. Perhaps read a little bit about Roma culture and history for some insight?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think I know, but I suspect that you will not get an answer.

Just like I haven't got my answers from you?

Chinasea

Deleted User wrote: »

Explain to me how looking to the immigration law of the country is self-righteous? Seems like many posters are hiding behind the "discrimination" thingy and ignoring the realities of the situation.



Only the last 60 years? You might want to add on a few more decades.. But in any case the US has deported Irish nationals who were there illegally. As for the UK, you might want to read back a bit about what I said about that.



We have Irish Travelers, not Irish Roma. There is a world of difference between the two, and you're showing your lack of knowledge on the subject. Perhaps read a little bit about Roma culture and history for some insight?

Not sure if you got my point - I think the majority of postings i.e. those in favour of deporting the Romas are using the excuse/hiding behind the fact (?) that these people are residing illegally in the host nation as opposed to openly expressing their true feelings towards this race although many posters haven't held back on that either.

Secondly, THE US has only introduced boarder controls/immigration laws in the last 80 years or so - before that it was a free for all and BOY did the Irish use that. As for the amount of illegal Irish that have been deported, that is a mere handful relatively speaking and the amount of lobbying to try and get legal status for the green folk of late again reflects the Irish attitude of it being our ‘divine right to simply turn up in the US and sign in’. Had an Irish American President been at the helm in the last 5 years the laws would have been changed to grant us this self believed right of passage. The Green Card lottery was invented to grant the white Europeans etc., clear cut entrance to the US. It is no coincidence that one of these first lotteries was started by an Irish American.
Thirdly, I see very little difference between the lifestyles of the Irish Travellers/Roma and like I say I take issue with Irish people getting up on their high horses about the Roma when we have thousands of our Irish Travellers living off the welfare systems in the UK since the DHSS commenced in the UK.

Chinasea

Chinasea wrote: »

Not sure if you got my point - I think the majority of postings i.e. those in favour of deporting the Romas are using the excuse/hiding behind the fact (?) that these people are residing illegally in the host nation as opposed to openly expressing their true feelings towards this race although many posters haven't held back on that either.

So, in your mind, if a poster is saying that the Roma are there illegally, and should be deported as per the law, then they're hiding behind that "excuse", and that they're really racists?

Again, how does sticking to the law of the country suggest that this is an excuse for their ethnic discrimination?

And lastly, since I'm definitely on the stance of their legality, are you putting me into this excuse category? Have you even bothered to read more than a few pages back?

Secondly, THE US has only introduced boarder controls/immigration laws in the last 80 years or so - before that it was a free for all and BOY did the Irish use that. As for the amount of illegal Irish that have been deported, that is a mere handful relatively speaking and the amount of lobbying to try and get legal status for the green folk of late again reflects the Irish attitude of it being our ‘divine right to simply turn up in the US and sign in’. Had an Irish American President been at the helm in the last 5 years the laws would have been changed to grant us this self believed right of passage. The Green Card lottery was invented to grant the white Europeans etc., clear cut entrance to the US. It is no coincidence that one of these first lotteries was started by an Irish American.

You're not telling anything that was different for every other nationality that went to the US over the last 100 years. The US sought immigrants. Its only in the last decade or two that they've decided that they fulfilled that requirement, and sought to limit the immigrants coming into the country. Basically, you're arguing about something that applied to many nationalities at the same time.

In any case, the US did deport illegal immigrants regularly over that whole period. Did they do mass deportations? Nope. Which is probably why its not really relevant to this thread. But then neither did the Irish or any other nationality set up illegal camps to live in while in the States.

Tell me something... were the numbers of British nationals that went to the States illegally so low in comparison to the Irish? Somehow i think you're hiding your own "true feelings" on the subject... :rolleyes:

Thirdly, I see very little difference between the lifestyles of the Irish Travellers/Roma and like I say I take issue with Irish people getting up on their high horses about the Roma when we have thousands of our Irish Travellers living off the welfare systems in the UK since the DHSS commenced in the UK.

And I still think you need to read up on what the culture/history of the Roma before comparing them to the Irish or English travelers. And secondly, are you actually able to tell the difference between the Irish and British Travelers? Somehow I doubt it, since both our own governments have that problem due to inter-marriage, and being citizens to both countries by birth.

The funny thing I find about this is that you're getting angry about Irish people (travelers or otherwise) on the UK welfare system, but have no interest in the British over here in Ireland doing the same. Or the Roma or other immigrants that are doing such to the French. :rolleyes:

Chinasea

Klaz,

Your response is way too long winded to disect and respond. Just to reiterate BRIEFLY: The Irish Traveller and The Roma's life styles/means of living are extremely similar and you need to ask yourself in all honestly how would you feel if the English simply said we want to repatriate (not deport) all the Irish Travellers, 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation back to Ireland as the UK welfare would save millions by doing so. How would you feel?

Laminations

Chinasea wrote: »

Klaz,

Your response is way too long winded to disect and respond. Just to reiterate BRIEFLY: The Irish Traveller and The Roma's life styles/means of living are extremely similar and you need to ask yourself in all honestly how would you feel if the English simply said we want to repatriate (not deport) all the Irish Travellers, 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation back to Ireland as the UK welfare would save millions by doing so. How would you feel?

Firstly can you spit it out who exactly are you calling a racist in disguise? Secondly your example above is muck, there has been no suggestion and no support for France kicking out all Roma or French Roma down to 4th generation. This issue for me is about illegality. Comparisons with the Irish in america are also inaccurate but I do agree the Americans have the right to deport illegals. The reason the comparison is inaccurate is because you may be comparing an Irishman who has worked and paid tax for 20 years to a Roma who has lived in a street camp begging for 6 months. If there are Roma working in France this actually helps their legal status and I'm sure there are many there past the 3 months who are legally working and remaining. When an immigrant of any nationality has contributed a large portion of their life and pay to a country it becomes a bit more complex when it comes to just kicking them out, but I recognise Americas right to do so as the Irish are still illegal. Now does saying that make me an anti-Irish racist?

It's not a surprise to say my experience with Roma has been majority bad, just as my experience with Irish travellers has been majority bad. But I don't use this experience to make judgements on an entire race. What has your experience been like? This isn't about personal experience, it's about illegal immigrants and the right of a country to deport. If Roma wasn't mentioned I'd doubt you'd even care.

@ Nodin , does the meaning of BHB make any difference to the content of that post? I'll leave you with your guesses so, it couldve just been that I spelled a word wrong.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

@ Nodin , does the meaning of BHB make any difference to the content of that post? I'll leave you with your guesses so, it couldve just been that I spelled a word wrong.

Why can't you just state what you meant?

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

... @ Nodin , does the meaning of BHB make any difference to the content of that post? ...

Yes, it does. If your approach to argument involves trying to ridicule somebody, then you owe it to everybody else to make it clear that they are not the butts of your base approach to discussion.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, it does. If your approach to argument involves trying to ridicule somebody, then you owe it to everybody else to make it clear that they are not the butts of your base approach to discussion.

Cheeky. You refuse to discuss legitimate points and at every available opportunity imply that your opponents are racists and then you describe my approach as base? I think you argue based on ethnicity when there are other factors involved. I think you argue based on turning blind eyes and making allowances for a group that are blatantly illegal because ethnicity is involved. I think (unless you want to come out and distance yourself from the comment that France should actually house illegals) you are members of the bleeding heart brigade, something I suspect you pride yourself on. You can't have rational debate once there is a sensitive issue involved, you ignored all parallels I gave while I on the other hand tackled yours, your inappropriate comparisons to the holocaust, comparisons to Irish in America, comparisons to 4th gen travellers in England. Your entire argument is based on speculation that the operation will cease after the prioritised Roma, it's fallaciously jumping to conclusions and I've said if this happens I'll be on your side and call this whole thing discriminatory, but until then you just feel free to fill the gap with your own prejudice and confirmation bias, fill it with your own wish to think ill of a nation wanting to enforce it's laws.

Like I said pages ago, your argument translates into punching sex offenders because you think they'll offend in the future. You may not like it but you'll have to wait and see.

opo

Laminations wrote: »

you are members of the bleeding heart brigade, something I suspect you pride yourself on.

I thought BHB was BHP misspelled.

Laminations

What's BHP?
If they want to distance themselves from the suggestion that illegal camp inhabitants should be housed by the French then I'll relax my views

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

Cheeky. You refuse to discuss legitimate points and at every available opportunity imply that your opponents are racists and then you describe my approach as base? I think you argue based on ethnicity when there are other factors involved. I think you argue based on turning blind eyes and making allowances for a group that are blatantly illegal because ethnicity is involved. I think (unless you want to come out and distance yourself from the comment that France should actually house illegals) you are members of the bleeding heart brigade, something I suspect you pride yourself on. You can't have rational debate once there is a sensitive issue involved, you ignored all parallels I gave while I on the other hand tackled yours, your inappropriate comparisons to the holocaust, comparisons to Irish in America, comparisons to 4th gen travellers in England. Your entire argument is based on speculation that the operation will cease after the prioritised Roma, it's fallaciously jumping to conclusions and I've said if this happens I'll be on your side and call this whole thing discriminatory, but until then you just feel free to fill the gap with your own prejudice and confirmation bias, fill it with your own wish to think ill of a nation wanting to enforce it's laws.

Like I said pages ago, your argument translates into punching sex offenders because you think they'll offend in the future. You may not like it but you'll have to wait and see.

I get all this because I take the position that the law should be applied equally to all, regardless of ethnicity?

Chinasea

Chinasea wrote: »

Klaz,

Your response is way too long winded to disect and respond. Just to reiterate BRIEFLY: The Irish Traveller and The Roma's life styles/means of living are extremely similar and you need to ask yourself in all honestly how would you feel if the English simply said we want to repatriate (not deport) all the Irish Travellers, 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation back to Ireland as the UK welfare would save millions by doing so. How would you feel?

First off, you're on the Politics forum. Get used to long posts, especially when you make a number of points yourself which need to be addressed.

Secondly, the Irish Traveller and the Roma lifestyles are very different considering a number of factors like citizenship, inter-marriage, UK & Irish governmental support, etc.

Thirdly, where is the repatriation of multiple generations coming from? There is absolutely no comparison here with the Roma in France. Feel free to start another thread if you want to explore that kind of thing. As for how would I feel? Absolutely nothing, except I'd wonder how you would separate all the Irish travellers from the British Travellers...

And lastly, can you explain your "true feelings" point? I've asked three times now, and still no real explanation.

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I get all this because I take the position that the law should be applied equally to all, regardless of ethnicity?

Ironically for those who are obsessed with illegal Irish in the USA - this is one of their biggest problems.

A qualified English speaking professional from Dublin can be treated no different than a non English speaking illiterate manual labourer from Mexico. Organising and petitioning as Irish is of no real benefit with this ideal in place.

However, as I have said repeatedly - this is for the US to decide and they are entirely entitled to do as they wish.

Chinasea

Deleted User wrote: »

Secondly, the Irish Traveller and the Roma lifestyles are very different considering a number of factors like citizenship, inter-marriage, UK & Irish governmental support, etc.

Thirdly, where is the repatriation of multiple generations coming from? There is absolutely no comparison here with the Roma in France. Wonder how you would separate all the Irish travellers from the British Travellers...

And lastly, can you explain your "true feelings" point? I've asked three times now, and still no real explanation.

I make no secret of my true feelings - the main feeling is that I think it is bloody rich of the Irish to be high horsing about the Roma legally or illegally living off begging and welfare handouts where applicable when the Irish Traveller has been doing this in any country it can for years. My other point was that this attitude of Irish people to just simply emigrate when it suits us and expect to be housed and granted employment or welfare in the case of the UK, in whatever country happens to be the latest country of choice for us and our children to land. When we had for the first time in our country an influx of economic migrants we were, and still are an extremely racist narrow minded country towards our non nationals.

opo

Chinasea wrote: »

I make no secret of my true feelings - the main feeling is that I think it is bloody rich of the Irish to be high horsing about the Roma legally or illegally living off begging and welfare handouts where applicable when the Irish Traveller has been doing this in any country it can for years.

Yawn.

Chinasea wrote: »

My other point was that this attitude of Irish people to just simply emigrate when it suits us and expect to be housed and granted employment or welfare in the case of the UK, in whatever country happens to be the latest country of choice for us and our children to land.

Please list these mythical countries. So far, we have the UK with entitlements no better (or perhaps slightly worse) than our own. Unless you are now going to imagine housing and welfare in the USA or Australia for example.

Chinasea wrote: »

When we had for the first time in our country an influx of economic migrants we were, and still are an extremely racist narrow minded country towards our non nationals.

Feel free to speak about your own racism - however - when referring to "we" perhaps you could point out the massive race riots etc or anything that might prove your point.

Chinasea

opo wrote: »

Yawn.

Feel free to speak about your own racism - however - when referring to "we" perhaps you could point out the massive race riots etc or anything that might prove your point.

"Yawn" - yea - wakey wakey.

Race riots; well perhaps again as you have been sleeping you have not tuned into the everyday verbal and physical abuse that is inflicted on many of our non white non nationals in this country and indeed, the fact that you don't seem to realise this and all of the other nasty bigotry that our economic migrants are forced to endure says it all really - it gives me the measure.

opo

Chinasea wrote: »

"Yawn" - yea - wakey wakey.

Race riots; well perhaps again as you have been sleeping you have not tuned into the everyday verbal and physical abuse that is inflicted on many of our non white non nationals in this country and indeed, the fact that you don't seem to realise this and all of the other nasty bigotry that our economic migrants are forced to endure says it all really - it gives me the measure.

I clearly don't associate with the class of individual you do.

I employ non nationals and don't hear the tales that you hear from them.

Sorry to disappoint you on both fronts.

Chinasea

Chinasea wrote: »

I make no secret of my true feelings

That anyone that disagrees with you is a racist? Because you haven't really argued this any differently.

- the main feeling is that I think it is bloody rich of the Irish to be high horsing about the Roma legally or illegally living off begging and welfare handouts where applicable when the Irish Traveller has been doing this in any country it can for years.

You do realise that many Irish people have absolutely no patience for the Irish Travellers.. Hence the reason threads about the Travellers seem to get closed up rather quickly on these boards. But I find it interesting that every time I mention British Travellers in conjunction with Irish Travellers, you ignore the British part and continue complaining about the Irish ones.

You do realise that there is a rather large population of Travellers with British citizenship?

My other point was that this attitude of Irish people to just simply emigrate when it suits us and expect to be housed and granted employment or welfare in the case of the UK, in whatever country happens to be the latest country of choice for us and our children to land. When we had for the first time in our country an influx of economic migrants we were, and still are an extremely racist narrow minded country towards our non nationals.

The funny thing I find about your stance is that our population is quite small compared to the UK (I'm pretty sure Birmingham has a larger population that the Rep. of Ireland), and considering the numbers of people that emigrate from both countries, the UK clearly comes up top. So it stands to reason that the numbers of people staying on past visa periods or coming in completely illegally, is also larger for British nationals. Do you have any links or evidence that shows otherwise? I certainly don't, and yet, logic suggests that this would be the case.

Also I'm curious. Despite your usage of the terms "us" & "we" I get the impression that you're not Irish... or perhaps you are and have some large degree of self-hate issues?

Jeboa Safari

Chinasea wrote: »

"Yawn" - yea - wakey wakey.

Race riots; well perhaps again as you have been sleeping you have not tuned into the everyday verbal and physical abuse that is inflicted on many of our non white non nationals in this country and indeed, the fact that you don't seem to realise this and all of the other nasty bigotry that our economic migrants are forced to endure says it all really - it gives me the measure.

Nonsense, hardly many, the vast majority don't get 'everyday verbal and physical abuse', they get on just fine. Some people do, which isn't right obviously, and not all that is down to race either, often just some scumbag who would verbally or physically attack you anyway no matter what race. Racism isn't a big problem here, not near the level in other other countries. You're completely exaggerating it (surprise, surprise :rolleyes: ).

And your point about 4th generation travellers being deported from England is complete rubbish aswell, it's exactly not whats happening to the roma in France.