Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Thirdfox

Chinasea wrote: »

Race riots; well perhaps again as you have been sleeping you have not tuned into the everyday verbal and physical abuse that is inflicted on many of our non white non nationals in this country and indeed, the fact that you don't seem to realise this and all of the other nasty bigotry that our economic migrants are forced to endure says it all really - it gives me the measure.

Whatever about the Roma issue - I take issue with this assertion (if you are purporting to represent Chinese immigrants' views on integration into this country).

As a nationalised Chinese myself and having lived here for over 14 years - I have to say that the Irish are a fantastic bunch of people - issues of racism experienced by myself and other Chinese (and "non-white") friends/acquaintances of mine are almost at zero (I can only recall one explicit instance over the last 14 years, an off the cuff remark by an impatient shopper).

So, if you want to paint this country as one that tolerates "nasty bigotry" - I'd ask for some concrete examples.

Regards and apologies for the OT discussion.

Chinasea

I could trot out some very ugly examples of extreme racist behaviour in this country but it is so ugly I do not wish to - we have had several fatalities due to racist attacks and that is all I want to say about that.

The thousands of Irish Travellers in the UK are first and foremost Irish regardless of their generation - this is how they themselves identify their nationality. Not me. Do some research? It is all there but you won't find much about it in the Irish media as it is not our problem "it is the UK's."

Chinasea

Chinasea wrote: »

I could trot out some very ugly examples of extreme racist behaviour in this country but it is so ugly I do not wish to - we have had several fatalities due to racist attacks and that is all I want to say about that.

The thousands of Irish Travellers in the UK are first and foremost Irish regardless of their generation - this is how they themselves identify their nationality. Not me. Do some research? It is all there but you won't find much about it in the Irish media as it is not our problem "it is the UK's."

How about answering my questions to you... or is this thread just a platform to throw out your statements and nothing more?

So there are no British Travellers? You have got to be ****ing joking. :eek: Your "regardless of generation" is a complete cop out since its an extreme escape clause. Let me guess, there are no British Travellers only Irish ones because the BNP tells it so. :rolleyes:

And now, I'd really like to know your nationality.. I had a glance through your message history and I couldn't quite figure it out. Alot of us and we, and yet there's other posts that sound like you're foreign when it suits.

Laminations

Chinasea wrote: »

I could trot out some very ugly examples of extreme racist behaviour in this country but it is so ugly I do not wish to - we have had several fatalities due to racist attacks and that is all I want to say about that.

The thousands of Irish Travellers in the UK are first and foremost Irish regardless of their generation - this is how they themselves identify their nationality. Not me. Do some research? It is all there but you won't find much about it in the Irish media as it is not our problem "it is the UK's."

I do actually agree with you that there is racism in Ireland but I fail to get your point. Are you trying to say that because racism exists here that arguing for the right of a country to deport illegals is therefore racist? Or are you saying that because there are Irish travellers in England (who are there legally just so you know) or because there are Irish illegals in America then arguing for the right of a country to deport illegals (such as France to deport illegal Roma) is hypocritical?

Nonsense. I've said already that America has the right to deport any illegals but there is a difference between a naturalised tax paying worker who is illegal and a non contributing street camper

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

... And now, I'd really like to know your nationality.. I had a glance through your message history and I couldn't quite figure it out. Alot of us and we, and yet there's other posts that sound like you're foreign when it suits.

What a giveaway! How you interpret or deal with a poster's arguments is to be based on that poster's nationality.

Jeboa Safari

Deleted User wrote: »

And now, I'd really like to know your nationality.. I had a glance through your message history and I couldn't quite figure it out. Alot of us and we, and yet there's other posts that sound like you're foreign when it suits.

If I had to guess, I'd say he is another login of a previously banned user who went off the rails, and has a chip on his shoulder about Irish people for some reason

gurramok

As I said in post #324, it was only a matter of time before the race card was raised to attack the legal expulsions and here we have a poster attacking the 'extreme racist behaviour' of the Irish.

Laminations

gurramok wrote: »

As I said in post #324, it was only a matter of time before the race card was raised to attack the legal expulsions and here we have a poster attacking the 'extreme racist behaviour' of the Irish.

And for the life of me I can't see what the (correct or not) racist behaviour of the Irish has to do with the French deportation of illegals many of which seem to be Roma.

PS and when I say I agree with chinasee that racism exists in Ireland I'd like to qualify that with my belief that Ireland is not unique, racism exists everywhere.

EDIT: when I say 'correct or not' I'm referring to the truth in the statement that Irish exhibit extreme racist behaviour, not whether the behaviour is correct or not

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What a giveaway! How you interpret or deal with a poster's arguments is to be based on that poster's nationality.

I'm just curious about his/her nationality considering the the stance he/she has taken about both the Irish and Travellers.

On a side note, I don't suppose you're ready to answer the last few questions I put to you? :rolleyes:

Laminations wrote: »

And for the life of me I can't see what the (correct or not) racist behaviour of the Irish has to do with the French deportation of illegals many of which seem to be Roma.

Ditto. But TBH He/She hasn't actually made any real opinion of the Roma in France. Just keeps talking about the Irish immigrants and Irish Travellers.

PS and when I say I agree with chinasee that racism exists in Ireland I'd like to qualify that with my belief that Ireland is not unique, racism exists everywhere.

Personally, I find Irish people to be just as bad to other Irish people as they are to foreigners. Its not really racism, its just a side to our culture that isn't particularly attractive. I've seen very little true racism in Ireland.

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

... On a side note, I don't suppose you're ready to answer the last few questions I put to you? :rolleyes:

Which ones?

[I am not aware of your having asked a question of any substance that I have not answered. In some cases the answer was there before the question was asked.]

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Which ones?

[I am not aware of your having asked a question of any substance that I have not answered. In some cases the answer was there before the question waas asked.]

Never mind. I can't be bothered pulling teeth.

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

Never mind. I can't be bothered pulling teeth.

I note the energy that you have invested in this thread; I note that you have implied that I avoided questions; I note that, when challenged, you don't identify questions that I have not answered.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I note the energy that you have invested in this thread;

Ahh yes, I've responded to anything I have disagreed with. It seems quite a lot of it was yours.

I note that you have implied that I avoided questions;

You have made statements regarding the Deportations of the Roma, and the citizenship of the Roma's in the camps. I have asked where you got such info from, and.... nothing.

I note that, when challenged, you don't identify questions that I have not answered.

Because I have asked you a number of times, and I can't be bothered going back and doing it all again. Read over the last three pages. My questions are there.

AlekSmart

It still appears to boil down to "us" being annoyed by another soverign State and fellow EU member actually doing something about a very visible problem which that State did not actually engineer.

A goodly amount of Irish physche appears to revolve around believing the line of the Irish being different in the area of being caring and compassionate.

"The Irish make brilliant Nurses"etc etc...or going back even further,how Irish missionaries converted the African savages to the benefits of Catholicism....

If we have learned anything over the period of our Independence it is that our native abilities are just the same as everybody else`s...no better...no worse...all we are is Human,with the exact same failings and achievements as the rest of the species.....:)

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh yes, I've responded to anything I have disagreed with. It seems quite a lot of it was yours.

That's fine, so long as you stick to discussing the substance of the issue.

You have made statements regarding the Deportations of the Roma, and the citizenship of the Roma's in the camps. I have asked where you got such info from, and.... nothing.

Not true. I told you that I knew it from my own experience of France, and from conversations with friends there. Further, this claim is not particularly contested, so I consider your repeated demand for evidence to be vexatious.

I looked quickly back through the thread to see how much evidence has been adduced here in support of any positions, and I find that there is not much. Unless I blinked, I think you are one of those who has been quite active in the discussion but has not contributed any evidence. But I suppose that you will justify it on the basis on one thing you said:

Why would figures matter?

You now seem to be of the opinion that a demand for figures starts to matter when you are trying to discredit me rather than deal with the things I say.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's fine, so long as you stick to discussing the substance of the issue.

What else would I be discussing apart from the topic unless you introduced it first?

Not true. I told you that I knew it from my own experience of France, and from conversations with friends there. Further, this claim is not particularly contested, so I consider your repeated demand for evidence to be vexatious.

The interesting thing is that I didn't contest anything you said about either your personal experience or your conversations with your French friends. I didn't even acknowledge it.

I asked for links in regards to your claim that many of the Roma being deported are French Citizens...

I also asked as to where you got the idea that the end result would be different for the different groups involved...(i.e different for the Roma versus the other deportees) That it being obvious "to you" wasn't enough.

I looked quickly back through the thread to see how much evidence has been adduced here in support of any positions, and I find that there is not much. Unless I blinked, I think you are one of those who has been quite active in the discussion but has not contributed any evidence.

Ahh well, everything I have spoken of is in regards to French Law, Roma culture, or such. In each instance, its common knowledge, or extremely easily found through google. In any case, at any point during the discussion, you have only to ask, and I will provide references to those points I make.

Hence why I asked for references on the points you made.

But I suppose that you will justify it on the basis on one thing you said: Why would Figures matter?

Isn't it great when you take things out of context? Perhaps you could read the whole post? If I remember correctly, I put all the responses in one post later to clarify the whole thing.

You now seem to be of the opinion that a demand for figures starts to matter when you are trying to discredit me rather than deal with the things I say.

I didn't ask for figures. I asked for references to the points you made which were strange considering the articles I read on this subject. At each and every stage that I ask for such reference/links I'm open to be corrected. IF you manage to provide information that is reputable, I might change my viewpoint. That is what these forums are for, IMHO.

God knows, I've been wrong in the past, but I expect people to be able to convince me with logic and backed up details to do so. So, instead of claiming my attempts to discredit you, perhaps provide the links when asked? You should be used to such requests by now. This is the Politics forum, after all.

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

What else would I be discussing apart from the topic unless you introduced it first?

You have started to discuss me.

The interesting thing is that I didn't contest anything you said about either your personal experience or your conversations with your French friends. I didn't even acknowledge it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68038986&postcount=352; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68039913&postcount=356

I asked for links in regards to your claim that many of the Roma being deported are French Citizens...

I never made such a claim, and you never asked me to substantiate a claim that I never made -- until now.

I also asked as to where you got the idea that the end result would be different for the different groups involved...(i.e different for the Roma versus the other deportees) That it being obvious "to you" wasn't enough.

I explained my reasoning here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68036282&postcount=343
and you seemed to accept it here (second sentence): http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68037032&postcount=345. I confess to still being unsure how to interpret the first and third sentences.

... So, instead of claiming my attempts to discredit you, perhaps provide the links when asked? You should be used to such requests by now. This is the Politics forum, after all.

So all that you post is common knowledge, and what I say is not? Even when what I say is an aside about who, other than illegally immigrant Roma, live in unlawful encampments? Yet most of your posts are predicated on the idea that the prioritising of Roma for attention is justified -- an idea that would be absurd if every camp was a Roma camp.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have started to discuss me.

Sigh. No. I haven't. Unless what you write on this thread is too personal to be commented upon.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68038986&postcount=352;

Woohoo... I asked for links about such information. Which you didn't provide. I didn't disagree or anything. I was interested to know more about that side of things.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68039913&postcount=356

Yes, you made an opinion, I asked for some further details other than just your opinion. Did I say you were wrong? I asked for something solid.

I never made such a claim, and you never asked me to substantiate a claim that I never made -- until now.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68073329&postcount=407

Last line.

I explained my reasoning here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68036282&postcount=343
and you seemed to accept it here (second sentence): http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68037032&postcount=345. I confess to still being unsure how to interpret the first and third sentences.

Neither of which relates to your belief that the Roma will be treated any differently than the other deportees at the end.

So all that you post is common knowledge, and what I say is not?

haha... This is the politics forum. I post something that you find strange, ask me to provide links to prove it. I could have done so for EU immigration laws, French Immigration laws, Roma marriage rules, etc. In each instance, you had the opportunity to ask for links. Just as I can ask that of you. And I did.

Even when what I say is an aside about who, other than illegally immigrant Roma, live in unlawful encampments?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Yet most of your posts are predicated on the idea that the prioritising of Roma for attention is justified -- an idea that would be absurd if every camp was a Roma camp.

Actually, most of my posts are from the angle that 1) French/EU immigration law justifies the deportation of the inhabitants of these camps (Roma or otherwise), 2) and the placing of a priority on a section does not constitute discrimination since the end result is going to be the same for everyone deported.

And this is the first time you've raised the idea of every camp being Roma...

Scofflaw

Just a reminder, for posters like the now-permabanned "Alex Higgins", that outright racism and celebration of the Holocaust (which applied to the Roma just as much as to the Jews) are not acceptable.

moderately,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

<snipped because I couldn't arsed wasting any more of my time on this nonsense, and I don't think many people would be interested, anyway>

And this is the first time you've raised the idea of every camp being Roma...

I kept just this to illustrate why it's a waste of time pursuing this. I indicated that it would be absurd to suggest that every camp was a Roma camp, and look how it has been twisted.

klaz, if you believe that I have wrongly failed to back up my points, report my posts, and get a moderator to rule on the question. It's not your prerogative to judge my behaviour here.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I kept just this to illustrate why it's a waste of time pursuing this. I indicated that it would be absurd to suggest that every camp was a Roma camp, and look how it has been twisted.

If you're gonna snip and change what is said, at least take my name out of the quote. I didn't write that.

Edit: And how has your last Roma example been twisted? It is the first time you have posted it, and I said so.

klaz, if you believe that I have wrongly failed to back up my points, report my posts, and get a moderator to rule on the question. It's not your prerogative to judge my behaviour here.

Sigh. Why do you bother posting here at all?

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're gonna snip and change what is said, at least take my name out of the quote. I didn't write that.

Well, then, who did? I found it in a post under your name.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Well, then, who did? I found it in a post under your name.

You found me saying "<snipped because I couldn't arsed wasting any more of my time on this nonsense, and I don't think many people would be interested, anyway>"? IF I did, then its a completely different writing style compared to what I usually use.

Laminations

P. Breathnanch, can you respond to my classroom example.

You have a school with Roma and non-Roma kids. They are in different classrooms because they gather that way, Roma tend to group with Roma and non-Roma (ie.g. Pakistani, African) form groups themselves. Some Roma, African and Pakistani kids get detention due to their own behaviour and have to miss out on PE, while others can remain. The classes that will miss out on PE will be escorted to the yard (boo hoo). However messers in the Roma class (i.e. one of the classes to get detention, there is a whole other class of Roma who will stay and contribute) mean that the principal decides to prioritise the moving of this class to the yard first and then concentrate on the others. Now of course some Roma in the detention class were not messing in the most recent incident but they were all behaving badly in order to get detention in the first place. As the Roma class are brought out to the yard, someone pops over the hedge and shouts 'discrimination! other classes got detention, why are you moving the Roma to the yard first?' The principal cites the messing but the hedge covered onlooked continues to shout 'discrimination!'

Now is it discriminatory to prioritise in this fashion, or is it that you simply dont believe the principal, and you know better from your view outside the school?

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

You found me saying "<snipped because I couldn't arsed wasting any more of my time on this nonsense, and I don't think many people would be interested, anyway>"? IF I did, then its a completely different writing style compared to what I usually use.

I see. You complained about one element of my post, and when I rebut that, you switch your point of attack.

You should familiarise yourself with posting conventions, and if you think that I have breached them, then you should ask the moderators to deal with it.

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

P. Breathnanch, can you respond to my classroom example....

No. I'm not interested in playing silly games.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

P. Breathnanch, can you respond to my classroom example.

You have a school with Roma and non-Roma kids. They are in different classrooms because they gather that way, Roma tend to group with Roma and non-Roma (ie.g. Pakistani, African) form groups themselves. Some Roma, African and Pakistani kids get detention due to their own behaviour and have to miss out on PE, while others can remain. The classes that will miss out on PE will be escorted to the yard (boo hoo). However messers in the Roma class (i.e. one of the classes to get detention, there is a whole other class of Roma who will stay and contribute) mean that the principal decides to prioritise the moving of this class to the yard first and then concentrate on the others. Now of course some Roma in the detention class were not messing in the most recent incident but they were all behaving badly in order to get detention in the first place. As the Roma class are brought out to the yard, someone pops over the hedge and shouts 'discrimination! other classes got detention, why are you moving the Roma to the yard first?' The principal cites the messing but the hedge covered onlooked continues to shout 'discrimination!'

Now is it discriminatory to prioritise in this fashion, or is it that you simply dont believe the principal, and you know better from your view outside the school?

A question so loaded it threatens to collapse under its own weight.....

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I see. You complained about one element of my post, and when I rebut that, you switch your point of attack.

I complained about you using my name on something I did not write. That's not an attack...

You should familiarise yourself with posting conventions, and if you think that I have breached them, then you should ask the moderators to deal with it.

Whatever. I'm done with you.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No. I'm not interested in playing silly games.

Ah yes I forgot, you are just in the business of second guessing peoples motives and attributing to them the illest of intent so you can have a stick to shake. The French have said the prioritisation is based on behaviour within the illegal Roma camps, they are not targeting all Roma, they are targeting illegals and prioritising the largest section and the seemingly most unruly section - the Roma illegals.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

A question so loaded it threatens to collapse under its own weight.....

That is a response so loaded with bull it disqualifies it as a meaningful contribution.