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Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

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    #632
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You asked if we saw a difference. I answered. Its not a matter of looking very hard. I just don't see it. Just as I don't see why placing a priority on the Roma is discrimination or racist.

    It's interesting though that you can't tell me the difference yourself, but rather I have to check these other places. Funny.

    Stop being obtuse, you are making a prat of yourself.

    It has been explained a thousand times. If you can't see why people might object to a specific race being targetted as x and then rounded up and deported with normal legal process being suspended, then that is simply your problem. If you can't see why discriminating is discriminatory, again, says more about you.

    At least Blaas has the honesty to admit he is a racist and doesn't care what happens to them. Others on here should take a leaf from his book.


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    #633
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    ... At least Blaas has the honesty to admit he is a racist and doesn't care what happens to them. Others on here should take a leaf from his book.

    Just the one leaf. The rest of the book doesn't make for pretty reading.


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    #634
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Just the one leaf. The rest of the book doesn't make for pretty reading.

    I'm not saying it does, but any thread on here about gypsies / travellers gets nasty with a chorus of 'I'm not racist but....' and immediatly followed by racist bile.

    This thread is no different and at least Blaas has the honesty to simply state 'I think the Roma are dirt and I don't care what happens to them'. Its refreshing honesty


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    #635
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Just the one leaf. The rest of the book doesn't make for pretty reading.

    Oh yeh, its racist to be against criminality.:rolleyes:


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    #636
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    Oh yeh, its racist to be against criminality.:rolleyes:

    Jesus wept. Is that seriously all you got from this discussion?


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    #637
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    gurramok wrote: »
    Oh yeh, its racist to be against criminality.:rolleyes:

    I don't think it requires a great deal to be against criminality and against racism. It is simply necessary to understand that race and criminality are not synonymous.


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    #638
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Jesus wept. Is that seriously all you got from this discussion?

    Just because you state anyone who disagrees with your opinion of this issue as been racist does not mean the objectors to your opinion are rabid racists.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I don't think it requires a great deal to be against criminality and against racism. It is simply necessary to understand that race and criminality are not synonymous.

    Well, its fairly big problem with the Roma community particularly those who have overstayed their welcome in France.


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    #639
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I'm not saying it does, but any thread on here about gypsies / travellers gets nasty with a chorus of 'I'm not racist but....' and immediatly followed by racist bile.

    Is it racist to think nomadism isn't easily compatible with western civilised society (before you jump down my neck I'm not suggesting eastern societitrs aren't civilised). Show me overwhelming evidence where nomadic cultures have integrated well in Europe. Now can you maybe for one second see that when people criticise travellers and/or gypsies it's not simply based on their ethnicity but on overlapping behavioural factors. Is it racist to ackowledge the presence of behaviours which might cause problems for a multicultural society. There has to be reasons Roma illegals are prioritised, you've used the word xenophobe and racist but I don't see the French or anyone calling for the expulsion of every foreigner.

    Caveat: I'm aware that ALL Roma are not nomadic but to deny that it is a cultural tradition of theirs is in itself bigoted. I've said it many times now, that thebehaviour of a few (even if a majority) cannot and should not be used to punish the whole but there are legal and illegal means for Roma to enter France and the illegals are a cohort for which prioritisations are apt.


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    #640
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    Laminations wrote: »
    there are legal and illegal means for Roma to enter France and the illegals are a cohort for which prioritisations are apt.

    Suffice to say, the legal Romas are not the ones people are complaining about.
    It seems Sarkozy is trying to deport them on the grounds of crimes committed.


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    #641
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    So it the Ra kick it off in England, the Brits can deport everyone they suspect of being Irish (anyone who looks Irish and lives in Kilburn for example)? Is that what you are arguing?

    Stop being obtuse, you are making a prat of yourself.

    It has been explained a thousand times

    The fact that you fail to grasp the repurcussions of my simple paramilitary analogy makes me question whether you understand what's happening in France at all


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    #642
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Laminations wrote: »
    Stop being obtuse, you are making a prat of yourself.

    It has been explained a thousand times

    The fact that you fail to grasp the repurcussions of my simple paramilitary analogy makes me question whether you understand what's happening in France at all

    Your 'simple' analogy is so off the wall you have had ot explain it 5 seperate times and still no-one has a clue what you are on about.


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    #643
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Laminations wrote: »
    I've said it many times now, that thebehaviour of a few (even if a majority) cannot and should not be used to punish the whole but there are legal and illegal means for Roma to enter France and the illegals are a cohort for which prioritisations are apt.

    But the legal ones are being deported too. Thats where your 'logic' implodes.


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    #644
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    Just because you state anyone who disagrees with your opinion of this issue as been racist does not mean the objectors to your opinion are rabid racists.

    No, its people who post that all Roma are criminals and deserve what they get are racist. And those who we know would defend other ethnic groups on the recieving end.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Well, its fairly big problem with the Roma community particularly those who have overstayed their welcome in France.

    So deport them. One by one. Not everyone in a 'camp' who looks like they might be a Roma according to the CRS


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    #645
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    But the legal ones are being deported too. Thats where your 'logic' implodes.

    If this s the case then I'll side with you but you have yet to provide any evidence that any foreign nationals legally residing in France are being deported. I am aware the French want to bring in new rules where they can deport naturalised citizens if they commit certain crimes but I am not aware of deportations of legal French Roma.


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    #646
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    No, its people who post that all Roma are criminals and deserve what they get are racist. And those who we know would defend other ethnic groups on the recieving end.

    In my opinion and in the opinion of the French, a huge proportion of the illegals are.
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    So deport them. One by one. Not everyone in a 'camp' who looks like they might be a Roma according to the CRS

    Roma and French Travellers have been noted officially as been in the camps, haven't they?

    Unless you're saying French Travellers are not Roma?

    The Irish did the same when deporting the Roma en masse from the M50 camp.


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    #647
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    OhNo I've asked a number of times what your individual experience has been with Roma and I reckon you have been avoiding the question because you think there is a right and wrong answer.


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    #648
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    In my opinion and in the opinion of the French, a huge proportion of the illegals are.

    So when they are convicted for a crime, deport them. Hell, even arrested. Just in the system for a reason. The issue here is the targetting of groups.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Roma and French Travellers have been noted officially as been in the camps, haven't they?

    Unless you're saying French Travellers are not Roma?

    French Travellers are French citizens, so whats your point?
    gurramok wrote: »
    The Irish did the same when deporting the Roma en masse from the M50 camp.

    No they didn't. The camp became a public safety issue and in dealing with a specfic camp it turned out that the people living there were illegal and deported. That was a secondary action to the goal - which was removing children from a roundabout.

    If the Irish Govt gave the Gardai a dictat to deport as many Roma as possible outside the normal DOJ proceedings and at THAT POINT they hit the M50 camp, we would be talking about the same thing


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    #649
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Laminations wrote: »
    OhNo I've asked a number of times what your individual experience has been with Roma and I reckon you have been avoiding the question because you think there is a right and wrong answer.

    Mine? Non-existant, the odd begger in town. Your assumption is wrong, I think there are serious problems with large sections of the Roma community in Ireland, and I assume its the same in France. The State is entitled to take action against them.

    But the difference is I don't feel comfortable with the idea of rounding them (or anyone) all up and deporting them to be seen as 'tough on crime'.


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    #650
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    If the Irish Govt gave the Gardai a dictat to deport as many Roma as possible outside the normal DOJ proceedings and at THAT POINT they hit the M50 camp, we would be talking about the same thing

    Did the French instruct the Gendarmmes to deport as many Roma as possible & kick off at the camps?

    I missed that.


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    #651
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    gurramok wrote: »
    ... Well, its fairly big problem with the Roma community particularly those who have overstayed their welcome in France.

    I said that race and criminality are not synonymous. Do you disagree with my suggestion, or am I take it that perhaps you agree in a general way, but make a special exception for the Roma in France?
    senordingdong wrote: »
    Suffice to say, the legal Romas are not the ones people are complaining about.
    It seems Sarkozy is trying to deport them on the grounds of crimes committed.

    Given that being in a country illegally is not, strictly speaking, a crime, I think that is not true. And if it were true, you can be sure that Sarkozy would deny it.
    Laminations wrote: »
    Is it racist to think nomadism isn't easily compatible with western civilised society ...

    Of course not, because nomadism, like criminality, is not synonymous with race. And the question of nomadism in Europe is one well worth debating -- particularly if we could deal with it without all the anger and the simplistic stereotypes that get thrown in.

    But nomadism is not the heart of the present issue: it's almost the converse, that the Roma are creating settlements.


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    #652
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    opo wrote: »
    Did the French instruct the Gendarmmes to deport as many Roma as possible & kick off at the camps?

    Near enough. The instruction was given to the police rather than the gendarmerie. They were told to clear Roma camps as a priority and to deport as many illegally resident Roma as they could find.


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    #653
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    So when they are convicted for a crime, deport them. Hell, even arrested. Just in the system for a reason. The issue here is the targetting of groups.

    Targeting of groups engaging in criminal behaviour where those groups are based in illegal camps.
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    French Travellers are French citizens, so whats your point?

    French Travellers are descendants of Roma. Thought you'd know that from your extensive interest in defending the Roma.
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    No they didn't. The camp became a public safety issue and in dealing with a specfic camp it turned out that the people living there were illegal and deported. That was a secondary action to the goal - which was removing children from a roundabout.

    If the Irish Govt gave the Gardai a dictat to deport as many Roma as possible outside the normal DOJ proceedings and at THAT POINT they hit the M50 camp, we would be talking about the same thing

    Thats exactly the same as the French are doing. The Irish had to deal with one camp, the French had to deal with multiple camps due to the numbers involved.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I said that race and criminality are not synonymous. Do you disagree with my suggestion, or am I take it that perhaps you agree in a general way, but make a special exception for the Roma in France? .

    Majority, not 100%. You're assuming 100% synonymous in this case when its not.


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    #654
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    gurramok wrote: »
    ... Majority, not 100%. You're assuming 100% synonymous in this case when its not.

    So you accept that not all Roma are criminal?


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    #655
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    So you accept that not all Roma are criminal?

    Can you not read?

    I said the majority of them who travel abroad to such camps and overstay their welcome to become illegals are in my opinion.


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    #656
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    gurramok wrote: »
    Can you not read?

    I said the majority of them who travel abroad to such camps and overstay their welcome to become illegals are in my opinion.

    Sure I can read. I am trying to persuade you to make a clear statement.


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    #657
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Sure I can read. I am trying to persuade you to make a clear statement.

    About what? Trying to get me to say something that you think I should say?


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    #658
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thought you'd know that from your extensive interest in defending the Roma.

    You see thats where the xenephobia starts to peep through.

    I don't give a damn about the Roma one way or the other. They are entirely irrelevant to this debate IMHO. If the French were linking Jews/Gypsies/Gays/Communists/Trade Unionists to crime (it was terrorism in the 40's) and talking about rounding them up, en mass, and deporting them to the east I would stand up and object. Its the tactic, not the principal thats objectionable, which is why there is a fuss now that didn't exist before.

    Thats the key bit you are deliberatly and disingeniously missing, and labelling me some form of PC defender of the Roma.


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    #659
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    gurramok wrote: »
    About what? Trying to get me to say something that you think I should say?

    Straight questions:
    Are all Roma criminals?
    Are all Roma who are in illegal camps in France criminals?
    Are all Roma who have exceeded their permitted time in France criminals?


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    #660
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    You see thats where the xenephobia starts to peep through.

    I don't give a damn about the Roma one way or the other. They are entirely irrelevant to this debate IMHO. If the French were linking Jews/Gypsies/Gays/Communists/Trade Unionists to crime (it was terrorism in the 40's) and talking about rounding them up, en mass, and deporting them to the east I would stand up and object. Its the tactic, not the principal thats objectionable, which is why there is a fuss now that didn't exist before.

    Thats the key bit you are deliberatly and disingeniously missing, and labelling me some form of PC defender of the Roma.

    You don't give a damn about the Roma? Pull the other one. You have a very high percentage of posts supporting the Roma.

    The French did not deport legal Roma, you might have a case if they did so you are entirely wrong on this subject.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Straight questions:
    Are all Roma criminals?
    Are all Roma who are in illegal camps in France criminals?
    Are all Roma who have exceeded their permitted time in France criminals?

    No.
    Yes, as they are in illegal camps. That's breaking the law.
    Most probably, as they have no means to survive on after 3 months.

    Whats your answers to your own questions?


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    #661
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    You don't give a damn about the Roma? Pull the other one. You have a very high percentage of posts supporting the Roma.

    Its irrelevant that they are Roma to me. I would defend any group being ethnically targetted.

    I could only imagine if boards was about in 1943. "Sure the Jews are terrorists, the Germans are entitled to select them for deportation".


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