Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

OhNoYouDidn't

therewillbe wrote: »

I dont care about them,Right to go to School,Sod that Our own Children are allready in overcrowed classrooms.The point is ,Get them and any other illlegals out of here.I dont mind helping out if required .

Right after us Dubs get to clear out all the culchies from our town.

Or is that form of migration somehow different?

P. Breathnach

caseyann wrote: »

There is apparently 3000 roma in Ireland....

What has this got to do with the topic?

caseyann

caseyann wrote: »

Then they will never be properly integrated or educated to give to the country.

The thing is that they don't want to be integrated into any country. Just like every other country they go to, they maintain their own culture rather strongly, and refuse to conform to the existing setup. Now, many people will say that they shouldn't need to, but realistically speaking a culture that sets itself apart will continually force them to be treated differently.

There are specific educational issues for Roma girls and women. Roma girls marry at young age and the emphasis is on the traditional role for women. This can result in Roma girls being withdrawn from the formal education system at the age of puberty.

As an adult, a Roma woman usually needs a husband's permission to attend adult courses, to be away from the home and to socialise with different people - especially other men. Lack of childcare is another major barrier for Roma women becoming in involved in education.

You might also want to add in the rather strict laws placed against all Roma not to marry non-Roma. Such a requirement severely limits the chances of their culture to evolve to the point where women receive the benefits that non-Roma women receive in any country. Essentially, the culture & laws themselves push for them not to change. And they won't. Regardless of what country they migrate to.

The Roma will continue to be seen as outsiders, and the trend across Europe to crack down on the unproductive elements of immigrants will also continue, and the Roma will find themselves hit by it time and again. But then so too will most Gypsy backgrounds that refuse to change and settle in one place.

OhNoYouDidn't

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Right after us Dubs get to clear out all the culchies from our town.

Dublin would lose most of its population then.

does not compute

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has this got to do with the topic?

Quite a lot actually. Its a discussion about how people view what the French are doing to some groups of Roma in France. On Boards.ie. The .ie bit is a dead giveaway there. People are allowed express themselves without justifying everything they think, write, say or do.

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I already did did some work on this question for you, and posted it: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68117565&postcount=559 . In my opinion, facsimile copies of official directions given to the French police should be high on the evidential scale -- rather more than unsubstantiated assertions such as claims that the operation is directed at all illegals. The instruction of 5 August to prioritise on the Roma, and setting a target number of camps that is about 65% of the total number of camps has the effect of selective application of law based on ethnicity.

What is the the breakdown of the camps populations?

What percentage could be classified as gypsies?

If they are ALL or virtually all gypsies - it is plain stupid to say they are "targetting" Roma rather than focussing on those who are also illegaly resident in the State first and foremost.

caseyann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has this got to do with the topic?

Showing stats if how many we have and how many are not in school here.They are not becoming apart of the countries the majority,only becoming a lame horse.
I read that most roma only get jobs in food industry as to the still feeling about them.
With proper schooling it will make them more likely to mix in and feel more at home.

Like in France.

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is that they don't want to be integrated into any country. Just like every other country they go to, they maintain their own culture rather strongly, and refuse to conform to the existing setup. Now, many people will say that they shouldn't need to, but realistically speaking a culture that sets itself apart will continually force them to be treated differently.



You might also want to add in the rather strict laws placed against all Roma not to marry non-Roma. Such a requirement severely limits the chances of their culture to evolve to the point where women receive the benefits that non-Roma women receive in any country. Essentially, the culture & laws themselves push for them not to change. And they won't. Regardless of what country they migrate to.

The Roma will continue to be seen as outsiders, and the trend across Europe to crack down on the unproductive elements of immigrants will also continue, and the Roma will find themselves hit by it time and again. But then so too will most Gypsy backgrounds that refuse to change and settle in one place.

I know what you are saying and i agree,But they dont have to be forced out of whom they marry,but opens the doors if they do want to escape said tradition.
Schooling will enable them and enforce sense of pride and achievement and also make them feel more apart of the country while building respect among eachother.
Is there a soloution? I dont know but until there is some steps taken to ensure they do adhere to the laws of said country,then imo they are within right to deport them.

P. Breathnach

opo wrote: »

What is the the breakdown of the camps populations?

What percentage could be classified as gypsies?

If they are ALL or virtually all gypsies - it is plain stupid to say they are "targetting" Roma rather than focussing on those who are also illegaly resident in the State first and foremost.

Why not give some data rather than try to deflect attention from the evidence I have adduced?

There is ethnic targetting, and it is there to be seen in the instructions given to the police in France.

P. Breathnach

caseyann wrote: »

Showing stats if how many we have and how many are not in school here.They are not becoming apart of the countries the majority,only becoming a lame horse.
I read that most roma only get jobs in food industry as to the still feeling about them.
With proper schooling it will make them more likely to mix in and feel more at home.

Like in France.

I'd ask you to prove your claims if they were at all relevant to the topic.

Laminations

P Breahnach you may think you answered my question but OhNoYouDidnt is insisting that Roma are being targeted regardless of legality. Only illegal immigrants are being targeted and only illegal camps are being targeted with Roma being prioritised. OhNo is maintaining that any and every Roma is being targeted, as if the French were looking in every house, shop, cap and deporting any Roma they find, i.e. Regardless of legality.

@ OhNoYouDidnt, you are one giant hypocrite. On a thread about BNP getting turned over you think this is ok, although you claim to respect free speech, you don't seem to understand it means the right to speak without threat or fear of violence. You think that because other members of the (right wing) cohort engage in serious illegal activity (stabbings etc) that this justifies generalisation and the treatment of other members of the cohort, behaving totally legally (i.e. Handing out leaflets, dispicable leaflets they may be). Other fascists stab so therefore I don't care if you are not allowed speak, seems to be what you are saying there.

Conversely here you fervently disagree with the treatment of a cohort (illegal Romas) based on the behaviour of a few of it's members. Namely you disagree with the logic of prioritising dealing with illegal activity which in other members of the cohort has transgressed into more serious breaches. Some illegal Roma are involved in serious breaches therefore the category illegal Roma should be looked at. This would be consonant with saying some fascists stab, therefore other fascists carrying knives should be prioritised over other people that may be carrying knives ( an illegal act). Instead you argue that some fascists stab therefore other fascists shouldn't be allowed speak?

Madness

caseyann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd ask you to prove your claims if they were at all relevant to the topic.

It is relevant and the same stats of not going to school is in France,They arent becoming apart of the country and helping with the structure or economics of the country,not to mention the cleanliness of the country is been effected among pollution.
Therefore they are within rights to deport them.

http://www.romasupport.ie/

Nodin

caseyann wrote: »

It is relevant and the same stats of not going to school is in France,They arent becoming apart of the country and helping with the structure or economics of the country,not to mention the cleanliness of the country is been effected among pollution.
Therefore they are within rights to deport them.

http://www.romasupport.ie/

"The cleanliness of the country is been effected" how, exactly?

caseyann

caseyann wrote: »

I know what you are saying and i agree,But they dont have to be forced out of whom they marry,but opens the doors if they do want to escape said tradition.
Schooling will enable them and enforce sense of pride and achievement and also make them feel more apart of the country while building respect among eachother.
Is there a soloution? I dont know but until there is some steps taken to ensure they do adhere to the laws of said country,then imo they are within right to deport them.

Ahh well... I agree with the deportations. There is a mechanism in place for immigrants to gain the ability to stay in France. And the interesting thing is that France has probably the harshest attitude towards Illegal immigration in Europe, so why would you go there with no intention of availing of the entry requirements? And even if you attempted and failed, you would know you would have to leave sooner rather than later...

Personally, I feel that the world has moved on too far for Gypsy tradition to survive as it is. This attitude of moving around without settling any substantual roots is no longer feasible. Hasn't been in a hundred years. And its going to get worse for cultures that refuse to change. Although, I do believe that if they embraced education, and moved their methods of gaining income to the Internet or consulting for specialised interests (being portable) then they could support such a lifestyle, and also gain the ability to freely move around Europe. But as long as they stick to the traditional Gypsy way of living, they're going to get screwed. Simply put there's no place left for them anymore.

caseyann

Nodin wrote: »

"The cleanliness of the country is been effected" how, exactly?

Do you not see what they dump and have in the camps? They are shanty towns practically.

caseyann

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well... I agree with the deportations. There is a mechanism in place for immigrants to gain the ability to stay in France. And the interesting thing is that France has probably the harshest attitude towards Illegal immigration in Europe, so why would you go there with no intention of availing of the entry requirements? And even if you attempted and failed, you would know you would have to leave sooner rather than later...

Personally, I feel that the world has moved on too far for Gypsy tradition to survive as it is. This attitude of moving around without settling any substantual roots is no longer feasible. Hasn't been in a hundred years. And its going to get worse for cultures that refuse to change. Although, I do believe that if they embraced education, and moved their methods of gaining income to the Internet or consulting for specialised interests (being portable) then they could support such a lifestyle, and also gain the ability to freely move around Europe. But as long as they stick to the traditional Gypsy way of living, they're going to get screwed. Simply put there's no place left for them anymore.

I agree with you,but people wont.They think they should while they complain about their own Irish on here, who are sitting on their arses and causing crime backing another group who also do it in other peoples countries.
You make a good point klaz

Nodin

caseyann wrote: »

Do you not see what they dump and have in the camps? They are shanty towns practically.

The camps are indeed shanty towns. Yes they are dumps, for obvious reasons. However illegal camps are not the sole province of the Roma, nor are the Roma nessecarily 'unclean'. Thus saying

It is relevant and the same stats of not going to school is in France,They arent becoming apart of the country and helping with the structure or economics of the country,not to mention the cleanliness of the country is been effected among pollution.
Therefore they are within rights to deport them.

http://www.romasupport.ie/

is rather misleading.

caseyann

Nodin wrote: »

The camps are indeed shanty towns. Yes they are dumps, for obvious reasons. However illegal camps are not the sole province of the Roma, nor are the Roma nessecarily 'unclean'. Thus saying



is rather misleading.

How is it misleading those camps are filthy,they are also illegal camps.
And show me the high stats of them going to school and working?

Nodin show me any such cases you can find of clean shanty towns?
Ever seen roma collect the clothes bags in Ireland and drive around the corner and dump them?

P. Breathnach

Laminations wrote: »

... Conversely here you fervently disagree with the treatment of a cohort (illegal Romas) based on the behaviour of a few of it's members. Namely you disagree with the logic of prioritising dealing with illegal activity which in other members of the cohort has transgressed into more serious breaches. Some illegal Roma are involved in serious breaches therefore the category illegal Roma should be looked at. This would be consonant with saying some fascists stab, therefore other fascists carrying knives should be prioritised over other people that may be carrying knives ( an illegal act). Instead you argue that some fascists stab therefore other fascists shouldn't be allowed speak?

Madness

I wish that you would leave out your analogies, because they are almost uniformly irrelevant and distorting.

Your representation of my position is, to put it mildly, a bit tangled. My core position is much simpler: everybody should be equal before the law, and there is evidence that the President of France gave directives and targets that conflict with that principle.

caseyann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wish that you would leave out your analogies, because they are almost uniformly irrelevant and distorting.

Your representation of my position is, to put it mildly, a bit tangled. My core position is much simpler: everybody should be equal before the law, and there is evidence that the President of France gave directives and targets that conflict with that principle.

But they do not live by the laws of the lands?

P. Breathnach

caseyann wrote: »

It is relevant and the same stats of not going to school is in France,They arent becoming apart of the country and helping with the structure or economics of the country,not to mention the cleanliness of the country is been effected among pollution.
Therefore they are within rights to deport them.

http://www.romasupport.ie/

The French have the right to deport anybody who is illegally in the country: that's not at issue. And they have a right to clear illegal camps; that's not at issue. Combining those two non-contentious points, they have a right to deport anybody found in an illegal camp who is illegally present in the country.

What is at issue is targeting which camps to clear on the basis of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

Your broad-brush colouring of the Roma adds nothing to the discussion of principle. I infer that you disapprove in a general way of the Roma, and that you believe that the things you dislike about them justify the way the French government is treating them. No deal. Even unpleasant people have their human rights.

P. Breathnach

caseyann wrote: »

But they do not live by the laws of the lands?

Tar all of one group with your broad brush, and ignore all other groups.

Can you come up with anything better than "I don't like the Roma lifestyle, so their human rights need not be respected".

FlutterinBantam

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The French have the right to deport anybody who is illegally in the country: that's not at issue. And they have a right to clear illegal camps; that's not at issue. Combining those two non-contentious points, they have a right to deport anybody found in an illegal camp who is illegally present in the country.

What is at issue is targeting which camps to clear on the basis of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

Your broad-brush colouring of the Roma adds nothing to the discussion of principle. I infer that you disapprove in a general way of the Roma, and that you believe that the things you dislike about them justify the way the French government is treating them. No deal. Even unpleasant people have their human rights.

Unfortunately Walshy, and their responsibilities.

They seem to harp on the former a bit more for some reason:cool:

caseyann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The French have the right to deport anybody who is illegally in the country: that's not at issue. And they have a right to clear illegal camps; that's not at issue. Combining those two non-contentious points, they have a right to deport anybody found in an illegal camp who is illegally present in the country.

What is at issue is targeting which camps to clear on the basis of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

Your broad-brush colouring of the Roma adds nothing to the discussion of principle. I infer that you disapprove in a general way of the Roma, and that you believe that the things you dislike about them justify the way the French government is treating them. No deal. Even unpleasant people have their human rights.

I could care less about where they are what they are doing,doesnt effect me in slightest.
I am not broad brush colouring anything.They are been targeted first and foremost as they are a problem,They are getting rid of camps that are illegal and sending home the ones who are illegal in France and known criminals.
So what is the problem then?
People are just looking for something to jump on for sake of calling others racist bigoted or whatever.I see know humane rights impeached here.Only the made up ones as per usual.
Prove that France have it in their thoughts that they are targeting roma because they are roma?

caseyann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Tar all of one group with your broad brush, and ignore all other groups.

Can you come up with anything better than "I don't like the Roma lifestyle, so their human rights need not be respected".

Where the hell did i say i dont like the roma? Put words in your own mouth not mine thanks:rolleyes:

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What is at issue is targeting which camps to clear on the basis of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

But what if the inhabitants you are trying to disperse ARE ALL OR VIRTUALLY MAJORITY THE SAME ETHNIC? and the only real logistical difference is their status re. citizenship.

Isnt it a bit stupid to think that there is "targetting" that is not entirely logistic?

P. Breathnach

caseyann wrote: »

Where the hell did i say i dont like the roma? Put words in your own mouth not mine thanks:rolleyes:

I may have misinterpreted you but, given the tenor of your posts, perhaps people might think it was an easy mistake to make. Will you clarify things so as to put it beyond all doubt: do you like the Roma?

P. Breathnach

opo wrote: »

But what if the inhabitants you are trying to disperse ARE ALL OR VIRTUALLY MAJORITY THE SAME ETHNIC? and the only real logistical difference is their status re. citizenship.

How about some evidence? Or are we simply to take your word on the ethnicity of those in illegal camps?

Isnt it a bit stupid to think that there is "targetting" that is not entirely logistic?

If you have to resort to suggesting that people who do not agree with you are stupid, then it might be that your case is weak.

P. Breathnach

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Unfortunately Walshy, and their responsibilities.

They seem to harp on the former a bit more for some reason:cool:

I suppose it's a waste of time asking that you practise good manners: my name is not Walshy.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How about some evidence? Or are we simply to take your word on the ethnicity of those in illegal camps?

Haven't you spent most of this thread suggesting that Roma are the only ones really being targeted so therefore wouldn't the majority of those in the illegal camps to be closed be... Roma?