Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

P. Breathnach

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is some good media coverage out there also,which is often quite difficult to find amidst the flurry righteuous indignation,especially amongst non-French folks....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cac0f220-c7fe-11df-ae3a-00144feab49a.html

Thank you for proceeding on the basis that information assists debate. The FT link seems to give me only two short paragraphs, so I take the rest on trust.

... So had she not agreed perhaps she could then have availed of the French legal system to appeal the request ?

Interesting question. I don't know what rights or paths of appeal exist. It seems a fair guess that there should be some mechanism where a person ordered to leave French territory would have some means of contesting the order. The instructions given to the police do not mention this. They focus on "voluntary departure", implying that there is a different process for involuntary departure.

Looks like them Romanian Politicians are a bit Irish about this stuff......they don`t like the oul paperwork....

The poor ethnic Romanians appear to be themselves a discriminated against group by the greater Liberal movement as the rights of the ordinary Romain to a quiet law abiding life appear to take second place to preserving the "wild raparee" ethos of Gypsy Culture

I suspect that you have typos here. I think it is well recognised that there is a wide gulf between Romanians and Roma.

As far as I can see,many of the irate objectors to French domestic policy would be far better occupied venting their spleen in the direction of Bucharest,where the responsibility for much of this lies.

Why? That is classic whataboutery. The fact that there are ethnic divisions in Romania does not justify the practise of ethnic discrimination in France. Among the reasons why people are so exercised about what is happening in France is that people in this part of the world know France well, and generally see it as a country run on principles that we would approve -- so a departure from from those high principles shocks us more.

Another interesting article from the recent coverage...

http://euobserver.com/22/30806

It also raises a mathematical issue...

Hmmm,440 camps dismantled....1,000 individuals "deported"..thats leaving some camps as no more than a two-person tent ?

There does seem to be a data problem, in terms of hard numbers available. to an extent, this is understandable. It is difficult to have a count of the numbers living in an illegal camp before going into it, and even more difficult to know how many have overstayed the time to which they are entitled.

I have seen a number of estimates of the number of eastern European Roma in France. The tend to fall into the 10,000 - 15,000 range. Some of those might be legally in the country, as they do not become illegally-resident until three months have expired and certain other conditions apply.

I think it a fair guess that not all those Roma who have overstayed in France are to be found in illegal camps. For example, some might be using the French version of traveller halting sites.

... Do we know how the French Authorities are processing those Gypsies who do not choose to accept the €300 and depart the country.

We don't even know if there are any.

Could it be that the French are at a stroke getting these folks into the Identification and location net which ensures the rest of us enjoy the fruits of productive living ? ...

I suspect the answer is no.

P. Breathnach

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm disagreeing with your ""Long enough to get a French passport" generally means that they were born in France." Perhaps the "gens du voyage" have all been born in France or the former colonies, but somehow I doubt it.

There are a number of ways to gain citizenship in France, and being born there isn't a requirement. Otherwise there would be a lot less French citizens (former immigrants) in that country.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "generally"?

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

None have been presented by the French government, at all. There wasn't even an arch reference to 'camps that display high levels of crime'. They targeted an ethnicity - Roma - who ostensibly are no more guilty than any other illegal.

Why this sudden requirement of synonymy? Roma are not synonymous with crime just as British are not synonymous with trouble. It's when you take into account the other factor (illegality for the Roma or drunken and disorderly for the Brit) that you get the basis for prioritisation, so you then are dealing with illegal roma and drunken Brits, but there is still no need for perfect synonymy with trouble or crime. All that is required is instances of other people who fall in these categories to have caused trouble previously, drunken Brits are prioritised because they have a tendency to cause trouble, not because all of them on every occasion cause trouble. The similar reasoning is applied to illegal Roma. There is no good evidence to show illegal roma have contributed or integrated into any society in Europe. And the French have mention crime and squalor being particularly bad in these camps. You seem to want more statistics than you would usually require to accept a set strategy. Are you calling for the stats to back up why Britain has raised the threat level for Irish dissidents? Or is the evidence of your own eyes sufficient in this instance? You don't seem to be calling for stats on British tourists causing trouble while drunk, it is just common knowledge from reports over the years.

I find it astounding that on the one hand you recognise problems within roma society in terms of integration and crime (crime or at least crime prevention is a problem with any nomadic society), while on the other hand you castigate the French for recognising the same problems and using this information to prioritise between ILLEGALS. You'd have a case if they were kicking out Roma regardless of legal status.

P. Breathnach

Nodin wrote: »

... There are no two degrees of French citizenship.

Not at present. Sarkozy seems to have ideas about that one, too, and proposes a system for withdrawal of citzenship from naturalised citizens who break the law.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Do you understand the meaning of the word "generally"?

Yup.

AlekSmart

Sarkozy seems to have ideas about that one, too, and proposes a system for withdrawal of citzenship from naturalised citizens who break the law

He does indeed P,and it sounds a quite interesting and challenging one as well..;)

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not at present. Sarkozy seems to have ideas about that one, too, and proposes a system for withdrawal of citzenship from naturalised citizens who break the law.

Next thing you know they'll be making new employees go through a probation period, during which they won't have all the same rights as current long term employees. Imagine that. I'd take to the streets.

barrackali

Ok so....I'm just back from yet another break in Paris, this problem with the Roma is worse than ever. They are begging on virtually every RER train service, they are also engaging in some major pickpocketing on the Metro system, I was nearly robbed by one at Porte De Clichy. I was also speaking to a lady from the Czech Republic who was robbed of her holiday money and park tickets by a Roma lady near Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy (the disneyland paris train station).

As a former Disneyland Paris castmember I know Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy very well, unfortunately so do the male members of the Roma. The French police and the SNCF security are not preventing the Roma men from blocking the ticket machines with material that causes passengers tickets to fail. When the passengers ticket (usually a tourist) fails, the Roma men approach them with an offer to buy a valid ticket for 9 Euro......they try to give the impression that they are ticket inspectors.

The following is the one that pisses me off the most, in fact it sickens me. Large groups of young Roma (mostly girls) are congregating at all of the main tourist attractions, each pushes a piece of paper in front of you claiming that they are deaf and dumb.....doesn't stop them from talking to each other and their minders.

Every tourist location in Paris is swamped with them.....the French government needs to do something.

Jelle1880

I have to agree with barrackali.

It really is a big problem and I applaud the French government's steps.
This does not mean I (Or they) hate Roma, or other travelling groups.
But it is very clear that they pretty much only engage in crime (Petty or not, it's still crime) and add nothing to the community.

barrackali

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I have to agree with barrackali.

It really is a big problem and I applaud the French government's steps.
This does not mean I (Or they) hate Roma, or other travelling groups.
But it is very clear that they pretty much only engage in crime (Petty or not, it's still crime) and add nothing to the community.

This is without any doubt, but through their criminal activities they have destroyed Paris for visitors.

donkey balls

I don't think our TD,s or Ministers will say to much about them as they are afraid of the R card getting played, From what I've heard from a friend of mine is the Roma men/youths are starting to intimidate the old age blocking of pathways etc and pushing them about.
Then again our political elite don't have to live with these sorts or else have the rose tinted glasses on,In my estate there is a few Roma families living it up in rented accommodation paid by US the tax payer yet the men seem to drink all day/night causing a disturbance to their neighbors.
Anyone know how or why there getting housed here along with other HSE payments from the govt,The last time I checked nationals from both Romania&Bulgaria in order for them to work here in Ireland needed a work permit unlike the other former eastern European states and could only come to the country as a tourist.
I happen to know some Romanian nationals and there pissed of getting tarred with the same brush these people like some of the earlier eastern Europeans came here on work permits,If only the govt could grow a pair and start f@@king these leeches out of the country it's bad enough having our own home grown wasters and lay abouts without having to import more.

AlekSmart

donkey balls wrote: »

I don't think our TD,s or Ministers will say to much about them as they are afraid of the R card getting played,accommodation paid by US the tax payer yet the men seem to drink all day/night causing a disturbance to their neighbors.....

.....I happen to know some Romanian nationals and there pissed of getting tarred with the same brush these people like some of the earlier eastern Europeans came here on work permits,If only the govt could grow a pair and start f@@king these leeches out of the country it's bad enough having our own home grown wasters and lay abouts without having to import more.

Good point DonkeyBalls.. I too work alongside Romanian,Bulgarian and Turkish folks with far longer experience of the activities of the Gypsies in their home countries.

The attitudes of these people to the rising tide of Gypsification here,FAR outstrips our own "ah sure,God love them" reaction.

One Romanian colleague ventured that the unfettered activities of the Gypsies would eventually leave Ireland and the Irish in as bad a place as Romania was two decades ago.

His description was simplistic,but perhaps even more valid for that......"Criminal First-Gypsy Last".

However,what struck me was the strong similarity between the Roma and our own Travellers in how they operate,particularly in their insistance that the "Settled" folk are the one's who must always adapt rather than any meeting half-way or other accomodation.

I was particularly struck by some articles he read from a Local Paper in his homeland outlining how Gypsy elders had ostracised and attacked a Roma family who accepted Government inducement to settle and educate their children,this internal attitude I believe is one of the great ignored elements of the Gypsy/Traveller debate throughout Europe.

tering_klotsak

yekahS wrote: »

I agree with you re the crime and in general not contributing to society, and I have very little time for them personally.

But how are they there illegally? Most are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, which have a right to legally work anywhere in the EU?

They can live and work, but EU countries DO have the right to kick out other EU citizens for misbehavour, especially people from the new ascension states, particularly Romania and Bulgaria. For example, in Euro2006 Germany kicked home a lot of English fans for causing mayhem. It does however infuriate me whne people say "kick out the Romanians" ... I know a lot of decent hard working integrated Romanians, mixing up the terms Roma and Romanian (although similar sounding) is pure ignorance.
But to get to the point, I agree, Romas are scum, and should be delt with accordingly. Jail time for theft and begging, then deportation and a permanent block on their passports. The sooner we sign this new border deal with our friends in the UK, the better

K-9

9 Month old thread so better closed.