Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Jeboa Safari

The Irish have proved time and time again that they are parasites, with no intent whatsoever to integrate, work, change, help or progress anywhere they inhabit. When will it sink in? Their MO is to beg, steal and sponge whatever they can. That surely isn't welcoming, is it?

demonspawn wrote: »

I changed Roma to Irish to illustrate what one would possibly have read in Punch magazine during the 19th century.

Isn't progress fun?

Except the Irish did work and integrate. You may have noticed that Irish people or their children occupy many diverse positions in the countries they went to, from the top to the bottom. While the Irish may have been looked down on similar to how blacks were, the majority didn't just set up camp and scrounge off everyone and lead lives of crime, like the majority of the Roma do. They are illegals or doing illegal activities in France, and so should be deported.

P. Breathnach

opo wrote: »

But the thread is about the Roma in France. The ethnic group nonetheless, is consistent EU-wide in many unfortunate and legitimately objectionable respects.

The thread title is about the Roma in France. Many of the posts are not: they are simply attacks on an entire ethnic group.

AlekSmart

P.Breatnach posted :-

So what is to be done with them?

A €64,000 question if ever there was one.

However we can take on board a few things not to be done to them,foremost being not to encourage their lifestyle choice by providing money and other benefits without some form of quid pro quo.

Mention of Dublin`s M50 Roundabout Roma from 2007 resulted in this piece....

http://irishabroad.com/news/irish-voice/spain/roma-gypsies090807.aspx

Whilst no doubt Mr Spain`s remarks will cause much discombobulation to supporters and fellow travellers of the "Irish" Roma,I found some of the points quite illuminating.....

Yet sitting proudly in the middle of the garbage and the squalor, the well-fed patriarch of the extended family said they had been living on a dump in Romania, foraging for food. Living in the middle of the motorway in Dublin was better because Irish people were kind to them, he insisted.

It was a different story, however, when they were deported a couple of weeks later and the camera crew and reporters followed the M50 Roma, by then around 100 people, back to where they had come from.

It turned out that they were from a mainly Roma village near a small town in the north west of Romania. They all had small houses and many of them even had land and horses.

Looking around the sunny, picturesque village it was clear that although it was poor, the people were not destitute. The houses had no electricity, but they seemed comfortable.

The Mayor of the nearby town, embarrassed by the attention, showed the names in his land registry book to prove that the Roma from Dublin’s motorway all had property in the area. He also revealed that several of them had petty criminal records and did not have passports. How did they get into Ireland, he asked.

That Mayor`s question is indeed worth asking.

More.....

And it got even more interesting when the reporters went to an Italian shoe factory within half an hour’s bus ride of the village. The factory manager told them he already had a large Roma workforce and that he was looking for more workers every day. He provided on the job training and the pay was €200 a month after tax, three times the level of monthly welfare payments in Romania.

Finally,and perhaps the great unmentionable issue surrounding gypsy/traveller society generally including the Irish element....

One of the seedier aspects of this way of life is the total male domination, teenage marriage, the subjugation of women by the men. The senior men in these extended families don’t work, involving themselves in trickery and trading to pass the time, and regard it as their work to send out their women, girls and children to beg.

In fact it subsequently emerged that the patriarch of the clan camped on the M50 had been seen on a security camera in a Dublin bank wiring money back to Romania during their stay here. And it also emerged that a van was being used to ferry some of the M50 Roma into the center of Dublin during the day to beg on the streets.

Probably the most upsetting aspect of all this — and it applies to our travelers as well as to the Roma — is what it does to the kids.

It’s not just the miserable existence they have and the way they are forced to beg instead of being sent to school. It’s what it does to their heads, constructing a parallel world for them divorced from the rest of society.

It`s all too easy to follow the accepted line of arguement,which states that if you do not fully support the Gypsy/Traveller distinct culture arguement then you must be an oppressive leaning facist.

I prefer to base my opinions on what I see,hear and encounter rather than what i`m directed to accept by some highly motivated spokesperson or other.

It`s all too obvious that for a substantial amount of such indigent groups,there is a living to be made and it may well be far in excess of what an ordinary tax-paying Joe or Joan Soap can expect should they remain within that settled,address holding net.

As for the French,it`s their country and thus far they appear to be making somewhat of a better fist of things than many others,not to mention their native tendency to self-belief and confidence.

Vive le Difference !

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The thread title is about the Roma in France. Many of the posts are not: they are simply attacks on an entire ethnic group.

Perhaps you might state what it is about the Roma activity in France that is distinguishable from typical Roma activity found just about everywhere else.

The only difference I can make out (and the point of the thread) is how the French are dealing with the more poisonous aspects - which is to pay them to go home and hope to God they stay.

Jeboa Safari

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Every last one of them, I suppose.

So what is to be done with them?

Sterilize anyone with 5-10 or a certain number of convictions, the type that will never amount to anything, that way they'll have to conform and respect the law, or eventually die out. And it would be their own fault

wes

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Sterilize anyone with 5-10 or a certain number of convictions, the type that will never amount to anything, that way they'll have to conform and respect the law, or eventually die out. And it would be their own fault

There is so much wrong with the above...... Forced sterilization of anyone, yes even criminal is messed up.

Personally, a lot of the stuff being said on this thread is also pretty messed up. The race of criminals is irrelevant imho, and criminals should be treated on the basis of there crimes, and not what ethnic group the belong to. If what people are saying were true, then just targeting criminals, would have the same effect as targeting via ethnic group, with the added benefit of not being racist.

djpbarry

AlekSmart wrote: »

I prefer to base my opinions on what I see,hear and encounter rather than what i`m directed to accept by some highly motivated spokesperson or other.

Unless said spokesperson is named John Spain, apparently.

opo

wes wrote: »

There is so much wrong with the above...... Forced sterilization of anyone, yes even criminal is messed up.

Personally, a lot of the stuff being said on this thread is also pretty messed up. The race of criminals is irrelevant imho, and criminals should be treated on the basis of there crimes, and not what ethnic group the belong to. If what people are saying were true, then just targeting criminals, would have the same effect as targeting via ethnic group, with the added benefit of not being racist.

Would it bother you if people had a problem with a culture as opposed to a race or are you a little too race focused to notice the difference?

donkey balls

alex post never mentioned the roma on the m50 been in court for stealing either did the media, during there stay here or the cost of the clean up after they left.
there are people living in my estate who have Roma living beside them with a house provided by the HSE, who make noise well after 12pm drinking cans in the front garden with the stereo blasting out.
they have no regard for the people living beside them who work while there down in the local HSE clinic getting hand outs.while they never contributed anything to the state it is bad having are own lazy f**ks who did'nt work during the boom without importing more of them:mad:.

P. Breathnach

opo wrote: »

Perhaps you might state what it is about the Roma activity in France that is distinguishable from typical Roma activity found just about everywhere else....

Why should I have to? It's not relevant to the point that I am making.

It seems I need to make that point more clear: it is wrong to deal with people on the basis of their ethnicity, and it is wrong to treat all people of the same ethnicity as being the same as one another.

I have no problem with a firm line being taken with Roma who can be seen to have done some wrong; I have a big problem with a firm line being taken with Roma for no other reason than they are Roma.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no problem with a firm line being taken with Roma who can be seen to have done some wrong; I have a big problem with a firm line being taken with Roma for no other reason than they are Roma.

I'd be of a similar opinion but like I said on the first page, I doubt they are deporting all and every Roma from France. I doubt they'll go door to door dragging Roma gypsies out to stitch a symbol to their clothes to send them to death camps. They will deport the occupants of illegal camps, the majority of whom may indeed be Roma.

If begging in Ireland was made illegal (in fact i think it might be illegal) and the government deported any foreign national convicted of a crime, then would the fact that the majority of deportations being Roma gypsies mean their enforcing of the new law was racist?

djpbarry

donkey balls wrote: »

there are people living in my estate who have Roma living beside them with a house provided by the HSE, who make noise well after 12pm drinking cans in the front garden with the stereo blasting out.

I presume you (or your neighbours) have lodged a complaint with the relevant authority?

dan_d

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no problem with a firm line being taken with Roma who can be seen to have done some wrong; I have a big problem with a firm line being taken with Roma for no other reason than they are Roma.

This is true, however it's just not comparable to here. The difference in this case is that the French have been dealing with the Roma for decades longer than we have, and the biggest difference is how they have been dealing with them - not with TV crews and an audience, but in the same manner that they deal with everyone who breaks laws over there. There are no allowances made for anyone, and the Roma have simply overstayed their welcome.

As I said before, an encampment on a roundabout on one of the busiest motorways in southern France was broken up in a number of hours by the French police, with minimal traffic disruption, ,and most people being unaware of it unless they drove past - here, it took what, a week, a number of TV crews, broadcasted interviews with the individuals involved and the entire country being made aware of it.And I doubt that we have even a percentage of the Roma population that they have in France.

We just can't compare, and as a result, how on earth can we understand the French motivation here?

wes

opo wrote: »

Would it bother you if people had a problem with a culture as opposed to a race or are you a little too race focused to notice the difference?

Looking at what is being said on boards, I think the term is perfectly apt. A lot of what is being said is racist, and I see no reason to ignore that. Now, you would have a point if it weren't for some of the crap being said on here.

donkey balls

djpbarry wrote: »

I presume you (or your neighbours) have lodged a complaint with the relevant authority?

yep it falls on deaf ears though:eek:

AlekSmart

Wea posted:-

A lot of what is being said is racist

Au contraire I would think.

Only a few posters have ventured forth with what would qualify as "racist" comments re enforced sterilization and whatnot.

The remainder have debated the issue (French deportation of Roma from France) with reasonable restraint.

It may well be construed as racist to refer to the M50 people as Roma,but given that they were Roma I find it difficult to concieve of how exactly to define them in any written description....if describing a Roma as that is racist then so be it.....(You can substitute Traveller,Arab,Jew or WASP for Roma if required).

Djp barry posted.....:-

Unless said spokesperson is named John Spain, apparently

Mr Spain`s piece is descriptive and informative particularly in it`s references to further enquiries made within Romania,and as such I felt it worth referencing,but as I said,I`ll continue to do my own thinking on stuff.

To return to the Topic at hand however,as dan d astutely points out the French appreciation of their countries Social Systems are appreciably at odds with ours and that may well be a far more accurate source of our own disagreements than the ethnicity of the "victims" in this case. ?

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Unless said spokesperson is named John Spain, apparently.

What Aleksmart stated was on RTE news at the time. Unless RTE are racist:rolleyes:

wes

AlekSmart wrote: »

Au contraire I would think.

Only a few posters have ventured forth with what would qualify as "racist" comments re enforced sterilization and whatnot.

The remainder have debated the issue (French deportation of Roma from France) with reasonable restraint.

Take a look at the AH threads as well. A lot more on there as well.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may well be construed as racist to refer to the M50 people as Roma,but given that they were Roma I find it difficult to concieve of how exactly to define them in any written description....if describing a Roma as that is racist then so be it.....(You can substitute Traveller,Arab,Jew or WASP for Roma if required).

That would be a different situation, and one I didn't comment on.

djpbarry

AlekSmart wrote: »

Mr Spain`s piece is descriptive and informative..

Descriptive yes. Informative? I'm not so sure - I don't make a habit of believing everything I read on the internet.

gurramok wrote: »

What Aleksmart stated was on RTE news at the time.

The account provided by Mr. Spain was also reported by RTE? Any chance of a link?

djpbarry

donkey balls wrote: »

yep it falls on deaf ears though

Who did you contact and what form did your complaint take?

donkey balls

djpbarry wrote: »

Who did you contact and what form did your complaint take?

it's not me that their annoying, the people who have to put up with the crap had to go through the PRTB to get info on the landlord etc,the gardai have been out a few times all that seems to happen when they arrive is to keep the noise down untill the following night:eek:.

as i have said before why should we the IRISH tax payer be forking out accomadation for these roma to live in when we have our own homeless people on the streets.
I await to be called a racist for my views which alot of my friends agree with who come from all walks of life/back grounds and who are not members of any skin head nazi party.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

The account provided by Mr. Spain was also reported by RTE? Any chance of a link?

Found it from digging.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/6news_av.html?2273669,null,230

djpbarry

donkey balls wrote: »

it's not me that their annoying, the people who have to put up with the crap had to go through the PRTB to get info on the landlord etc,the gardai have been out a few times all that seems to happen when they arrive is to keep the noise down untill the following night

Tenants can be evicted from social housing if they are found to be engaging in anti-social behaviour. Have the individuals in question been reported to the housing department of the relevant local authority?

gurramok wrote: »

Found it from digging.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/6news_av.html?2273669,null,230

That report is ever so slightly different in both tone and content from that produced by Mr. Spain, wouldn't you say?

Bottle_of_Smoke

wes wrote: »

Personally, a lot of the stuff being said on this thread is also pretty messed up. The race of criminals is irrelevant imho, and criminals should be treated on the basis of there crimes, and not what ethnic group the belong to. If what people are saying were true, then just targeting criminals, would have the same effect as targeting via ethnic group, with the added benefit of not being racist.

It gets tricky in this case. It's not the criminal aspect of Romas I'm bothered about - to be honest I didn't know it was a major issue.

My problem is their culture. They have no intention of working. They seem to think it perfectly acceptable to harass Irish people as well as tourists on a permanent basis. I worked in Dublin city centre last summer, same women every day. And when I walk through talbot street this year I recognise them from last year. They're perfectly nourished, look a hell of a lot healthier than Irish beggars.

Being here that long they're no doubt claiming jobseeker's benefit in addition to lucrative begging earnings. From what I've observed it would appear middle class Irish females find it impossible not to give someone with a baby all their change.

I hate that we are allowing this to go on. There should be anti-begging legislation and foreigners should not be entitled to jobseekers allowance. (if they've worked I've no objection to them getting jobseeker's benefit though)

Now I'll probably get pulled up for saying "they" rather than "the vast vast majority of them" but to be honest I'm sceptical about the latter. I've never been served by one in a shop let alone worked with one. I have been served by/worked with people from virtually every ethnicity on the planet. Well no Mongolians yet but they haven't ever begged off me either.

So I don't think people who criticise Roma as racists in the usual meaning of the term. It isn't like I think there's anything inherantly wrong with their ethnicity, just their culture is ridiculous.

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My problem is their culture. They have no intention of working.

The news-piece linked to above by gurramok identifies a factory in Romania where the overwhelming majority of the workforce are Roma.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They seem to think it perfectly acceptable to harass Irish people as well as tourists on a permanent basis. I worked in Dublin city centre last summer, same women every day. And when I walk through talbot street this year I recognise them from last year.

So you’re judging an entire race/culture based on the actions of a few women?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Being here that long they're no doubt claiming jobseeker's benefit...

I wouldn't be so sure about that - it's quite possible that they do not satisfy the Habitually Residency Condition.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There should be anti-begging legislation and foreigners should not be entitled to jobseekers allowance.

You want to deny all non-Irish people access to welfare based on the actions of a few women on Talbot Street?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I've never been served by one in a shop...

I don’t know what shops you frequent, but most I visit don’t force their staff to write their cultural/ethnic background on their foreheads.

Jeboa Safari

djpbarry wrote: »

The news-piece linked to above by gurramok identifies a factory in Romania where the overwhelming majority of the workforce are Roma.
So you’re judging an entire race/culture based on the actions of a few women?
I wouldn't be so sure about that - it's quite possible that they do not satisfy the Habitually Residency Condition.
You want to deny all non-Irish people access to welfare based on the actions of a few women on Talbot Street?
I don’t know what shops you frequent, but most I visit don’t force their staff to write their cultural/ethnic background on their foreheads.

There's no smoke without fire, almost every country they go to there's tensions between them and the locals

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

The news-piece linked to above by gurramok identifies a factory in Romania where the overwhelming majority of the workforce are Roma.

Any evidence that at least even 20% of their population here are in employment? I already pointed out I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with their ethnicity, it's the cultural beggars I have issue with.

So you’re judging an entire race/culture based on the actions of a few women?

That and the fact every time I see them they're begging. And I've never come across one in employment

I wouldn't be so sure about that - it's quite possible that they do not satisfy the Habitually Residency Condition.

Don't see why not. If they're living here two years and from the EU why wouldn't they be entitled to it?

You want to deny all non-Irish people access to welfare based on the actions of a few women on Talbot Street?

I don't think we should become a magnet for professional beggars. Work 5-6hours a day begging aggressively you could easily take in 500 a week. Add that to JS allowance its a very nice income. I don't really see what use it would be to a foreigner anyway as you can't claim it for for at least 2 years. Perhaps exceptions could be made for foreigners who come here for third level study.

I did make the distinction that those who have worked should get jobseeker's benefit(that's what you get if you make sufficient PRSI contributions) should they need it but I see you conveniently cut that bit out when quoting me

I don’t know what shops you frequent, but most I visit don’t force their staff to write their cultural/ethnic background on their foreheads.

They have a pretty distinctive look and accent. Grow up.

wes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It gets tricky in this case. It's not the criminal aspect of Romas I'm bothered about - to be honest I didn't know it was a major issue.

My problem is their culture. They have no intention of working. They seem to think it perfectly acceptable to harass Irish people as well as tourists on a permanent basis. I worked in Dublin city centre last summer, same women every day. And when I walk through talbot street this year I recognise them from last year. They're perfectly nourished, look a hell of a lot healthier than Irish beggars.

Being here that long they're no doubt claiming jobseeker's benefit in addition to lucrative begging earnings. From what I've observed it would appear middle class Irish females find it impossible not to give someone with a baby all their change.

I hate that we are allowing this to go on. There should be anti-begging legislation and foreigners should not be entitled to jobseekers allowance. (if they've worked I've no objection to them getting jobseeker's benefit though)

Now I'll probably get pulled up for saying "they" rather than "the vast vast majority of them" but to be honest I'm sceptical about the latter. I've never been served by one in a shop let alone worked with one. I have been served by/worked with people from virtually every ethnicity on the planet. Well no Mongolians yet but they haven't ever begged off me either.

So I don't think people who criticise Roma as racists in the usual meaning of the term. It isn't like I think there's anything inherantly wrong with their ethnicity, just their culture is ridiculous.

Well, one major problem with the above is that you are coming from personal experience, which I know to be wrong. There are Roma who do work, but your unlikely to notice as they aren't going to go out of your way to bother you.

Yitzhak Rabin

wes wrote: »

Well, one major problem with the above is that you are coming from personal experience, which I know to be wrong. There are Roma who do work, but your unlikely to notice as they aren't going to go out of your way to bother you.

Sure, but thats because the government doesn't provide transparent statistics on the unemployment levels within different communities, so all we have is anecdotal evidence.

But do you honestly believe that if such a survey was undertaken that it would reveal that a majority of Roma work? Would it even be able to show that more than a tiny fraction of the Roma community work?

Of course, if you are honest with yourself, you know that it would reveal that an extremely high proportion of the Roma community do not work and are in receipt of social welfare.

wes

yekahs wrote: »

Of course, if you are honest with yourself, you know that it would reveal that an extremely high proportion of the Roma community do not work and are in receipt of social welfare.

Well, seeing as I don't have the avaliable information, then I can't really say either way.