Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Yitzhak Rabin

wes wrote: »

Well, seeing as I don't have the avaliable information, then I can't really say either way.

Exactly, so we don't have the information. So in the absense of information, and those of us without the means to that info, have to rely on our own experience and anecdotal evidence. So from your experience, and hearing of others, do you believe that a majority, or even sizeable minority, of Roma people are in employment.

I'm not asking if you know, just what you believe to be the case. SO if you were placing a €50 bet today, and the choice you had was that the vast majority of Roma were unemployed, or that the majority (or even a minority above, say, 25%) were in full time tax paying employment, which would you bet on?

P. Breathnach

yekahs wrote: »

Exactly, so we don't have the information. So in the absense of information, and those of us without the means to that info, have to rely on our own experience and anecdotal evidence. So from your experience, and hearing of others, do you believe that a majority, or even sizeable minority, of Roma people are in employment.

It does not matter what the numbers are. If one Roma is working, it becomes wrong to treat all Roma as unwilling to work. In fact, if you characterise all Roma as workshy and dishonest, you make it extremely difficult for any individual Roma to become a productive worker.

If 73 Roma create an illegal encampment, deal with those 73 Roma as is appropriate: they have done something demonstrably wrong. It does no mean that every Roma lives in illegal encampment, wishes to live in an illegal encampment, or supports the making of illegal encampments.

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

And I've never come across one in employment

How could you possibly know?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Don't see why not. If they're living here two years and from the EU why wouldn't they be entitled to it?

Because the habitual residency condition is applied fairly arbitrarily. It takes into consideration employment patterns, for example. In theory, one could be resident in the state for 10 years and still not fulfil this condition.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't think we should become a magnet for professional beggars.

“Professional begging” is something engaged in by people from various different backgrounds and it’s not going to go away unless people stop doling out change to strangers on the street.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I did make the distinction that those who have worked should get jobseeker's benefit(that's what you get if you make sufficient PRSI contributions) should they need it but I see you conveniently cut that bit out when quoting me

My missus is a foreigner. She’s been here for almost eight years and has never been out of work. Why shouldn’t she be able to claim jobseekers’ allowance, should she ever be required to?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They have a pretty distinctive look and accent.

So you’re telling me that if I present you with a line-up of Spar employees (for example), you’ll be able to pick out any Roma?

wes

yekahs wrote: »

Exactly, so we don't have the information. So in the absense of information, and those of us without the means to that info, have to rely on our own experience and anecdotal evidence. So from your experience, and hearing of others, do you believe that a majority, or even sizeable minority, of Roma people are in employment.

I don't know, as I don't have the information. I already answered this question, and I already explained this position.

yekahs wrote: »

I'm not asking if you know, just what you believe to be the case. SO if you were placing a €50 bet today, and the choice you had was that the vast majority of Roma were unemployed, or that the majority (or even a minority above, say, 25%) were in full time tax paying employment, which would you bet on?

I don't gamble, as I see it as being foolish. So I wouldn't take your bet.

Secondly, it pretty clear you can't prove your case with anything other than anecdotal evidence, which on its own is worthless, without data to back it up.

I don't see why France has a duty of care towards these people.. IF people immigrate to a country and work then they're contributing to the target country, and therefore should be provided help during periods of hardship/unemployment. However, if immigrants are just moving to a country to do nothing, then the state should be able to tell them to go home.

The same being a high portion of a "ethnic" group or nationality that move to a country primarily focus their efforts in crime, then the whole could be painted as being undesirable and sent home. IF individuals of this nationality or "Ethnic" grouping can show that they have meaningful (and legal) work then they should be treated differently and they should be allowed to stay.

I see no reason for allowing free movement or allowing people to set up camps at will, when they are not providing a positive influence in the country. Such rights of movement are earned through the desire to make a decent life, and to live within the laws of the host country. If people don't contribute and do so legally they should be thrown out. Simple.

Oh, and that's not racist. Its practical.

Aseth

As much as France has any right to deport any illegal immigrants I don't see how it will solve the problem. They will be back in no time. Plus their culture doesn't promote hard work, or any work really. Worst case scenario(for them) they will move to some other country.
I personally cannot imagine how anyone could solve the problem - you can't close them in any sort of camps or hope they will stay in a country that is not able to support it's own citizens(like Romania and Bulgaria) when they could claim social welfare in 'rich' western countries.

Laminations

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If 73 Roma create an illegal encampment, deal with those 73 Roma as is appropriate: they have done something demonstrably wrong. It does no mean that every Roma lives in illegal encampment, wishes to live in an illegal encampment, or supports the making of illegal encampments.

Couldn't agree more, I've said consistently that the criminal/illegal elements need to be dealt with while realising that not all Roma are illegal camp dwelling beggars. My problem lies in the fact that there is a PC brigade who will come to the defense of these illegals, and shout RACISM!!!

One of the interesting aspects to the M50 Roma camp, especially in their first weeks on the motorway, was the reaction of a number of organizations here, who immediately demanded that the Irish government supply the Roma with housing, services for the kids and welfare support.

Chief among these was the organization for Irish travelers, Pavee Point, which talked about the discrimination the Roma faced at home and the moral duty we had to care for those who had arrived here. Another organization called Residents Against Racism also demanded intervention, housing, support funds and so on. Even the professional child welfare workers association called for action.

And, of course, the Catholic Church got in on the act as well, with the social welfare agency of the Archdiocese of Dublin, a body called Crosscare, urging the state to put pressure on the Romanian government about the lack of human rights for the Roma there.

The lawyers were also getting warmed up, with free legal aid for the Roma caught begging with children in the city center (which is now against the law here) and some of the Roma preparing to take a court challenge against their repatriation.

All of this is what I call the “immigration industry” here, a now large number of NGOs, lawyers, human rights activists and pressure groups which come out whenever a difficult situation like that posed by the Roma on the M50 emerges.

We — and the government —are lectured on racism, discrimination and the human rights of those who are part of a separate culture but the motives of those involved, like this group of Roma, are never seriously questioned.

Memnoch

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see why France has a duty of care towards these people.. IF people immigrate to a country and work then they're contributing to the target country, and therefore should be provided help during periods of hardship/unemployment. However, if immigrants are just moving to a country to do nothing, then the state should be able to tell them to go home.

The same being a high portion of a "ethnic" group or nationality that move to a country primarily focus their efforts in crime, then the whole could be painted as being undesirable and sent home. IF individuals of this nationality or "Ethnic" grouping can show that they have meaningful (and legal) work then they should be treated differently and they should be allowed to stay.

I see no reason for allowing free movement or allowing people to set up camps at will, when they are not providing a positive influence in the country. Such rights of movement are earned through the desire to make a decent life, and to live within the laws of the host country. If people don't contribute and do so legally they should be thrown out. Simple.

Oh, and that's not racist. Its practical.

You cannot paint entire ethnic group as "undesirable," that is textbook definition of racism. It ignores the right of individuals to be treated fairly on on their own merit.

The issue isn't with deporting immigrants who are engaged in illegal activity after a fair judicial process that takes their basic and inalienable human rights into consideration. The issue is with mass deportations and what is rightly described as ethnic cleansing, i.e. the removal of a group of people based on their ethnicity rather than on the individual person and their actions.

Laminations

Memnoch wrote: »

The issue is with mass deportations and what is rightly described as ethnic cleansing, i.e. the removal of a group of people based on their ethnicity rather than on the individual person and their actions.

Is that really the issue? I thought it was the removal of the illegals found camping and begging. After all it has been said, how does one recognise a Roma?

djpbarry wrote: »

So you’re telling me that if I present you with a line-up of Spar employees (for example), you’ll be able to pick out any Roma?

The French have no intention of trying to ethnically clease all Roma, they want to cleanse begging and illegal camping, if it so happens that many or most of the culprits and hence deportees are Roma well then thats just how it is.

Are you suggesting the French will set up checkpoints and do door to door searches for Roma and try and 'ethnically cleanse' them like the Jews of 1930s Germany? Get real

Memnoch

Memnoch wrote: »

You cannot paint entire ethnic group as "undesirable," that is textbook definition of racism. It ignores the right of individuals to be treated fairly on on their own merit.

Actually, I didn't. I spoke about individuals that can prove that they have work, and the ability to support themselves... The rest being kicked out.

The issue isn't with deporting immigrants who are engaged in illegal activity after a fair judicial process that takes their basic and inalienable human rights into consideration. The issue is with mass deportations and what is rightly described as ethnic cleansing, i.e. the removal of a group of people based on their ethnicity rather than on the individual person and their actions.

Ahh well, I guess I'll go with being non-pc and admit that some ethnic cultures should not be "encouraged" to continue if they promote crime and a unwillingness to find meaningful employment to support themselves. I have no patience with this attitude that minority groups deserve more than the common citizen simply because they're apparently a different ethnic grouping. If they can show that they have work (begging not included), and are able to live within the laws of the country, great! If not, then allow the deportations to continue.

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

The French have no intention of trying to ethnically clease all Roma...

I never suggested that was their intention.

Laminations wrote: »

...they want to cleanse begging and illegal camping, if it so happens that many or most of the culprits and hence deportees are Roma well then thats just how it is.

I'm not disputing this.

Laminations wrote: »

Are you suggesting the French will set up checkpoints and do door to door searches for Roma and try and 'ethnically cleanse' them like the Jews of 1930s Germany?

Eh, no. No I'm not. The line you quoted was specifically aimed a comment made by Bottle_of_Smoke, who seems to be suggesting that all Roma are easily identifiable as they all look and sound the same.

Laminations

Sorry djpbarry, I quoted you as a response to Memnoch who was indeed implying 'ethnic cleansing'. I quoted your post to show that it is ludicrous to think one can identify a Roma for deportation just because they are Roma

The bit after your quote is still being directed at Memnoch, and his silly suggestion

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

How could you possibly know?

For the same reasons I know many Nigerians, Chinese, Polish etc are in emplyment. Ethnic features and accents.

Because the habitual residency condition is applied fairly arbitrarily. It takes into consideration employment patterns, for example. In theory, one could be resident in the state for 10 years and still not fulfil this condition.

Well I hope it is done stringently. I'd imagine it is difficult to distinguish to be honest.

“Professional begging” is something engaged in by people from various different backgrounds and it’s not going to go away unless people stop doling out change to strangers on the street.

Granted but if I was a professional beggar I would go for a country that gives me free money after a few years

My missus is a foreigner. She’s been here for almost eight years and has never been out of work. Why shouldn’t she be able to claim jobseekers’ allowance, should she ever be required to?

She'd be entitled to jobseekers benefit, which I have said twice I am in favour of.

So you’re telling me that if I present you with a line-up of Spar employees (for example), you’ll be able to pick out any Roma?

Eh... yes. They have quite a distinctive look. And if they were working in Spar I'd hear their accent too.

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

The line you quoted was specifically aimed a comment made by Bottle_of_Smoke, who seems to be suggesting that all Roma are easily identifiable as they all look and sound the same.

Oh come on. That's a pathetically cheap shot. They don't all look the same. They have some similar features that other ethnic groups don't have.

If I said you could identify a Dubliner by his accent in Cork you wouldn't claim I said all Dubliners sound the same.

AlekSmart

Interesting article from today`s New York Times on the topic....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world/europe/26iht-roma.html

Of particular interest is the tacit admission that the French action is not specifically directed at Roma per se,but at those who are illegally (under French Law) remaining in their country.

On Wednesday, several dozen people arrived in Bulgaria, where last week there was an uproar after the local news media reported that some of those deported on Friday were actually ethnic Turks.

In fact, the fundamental problems of the Roma in a borderless Europe could ultimately dampen further enthusiasm for admitting Turkey into the European Union.

The plot thickens ?

Many of the deported Roma, who are vowing to return legally to France after their expulsion, left Bulgaria and Romania after those nations joined the European Union in 2007. They were largely fleeing poverty and discrimination in rural areas of Romania, where last year a study showed that 7 out of 10 Romanians would not accept a Roma as part of their family. They have also been pushed out by economic forces, particularly in Romania, where the government has introduced drastic austerity measures.

Interesting commentary this ,as the reality dawns that it`s not simply a question of the Nasty Old French being blind to the benefits of Gypsy culture.

Not for the first time do we see evidence of the "Problems" being somewhat more home-grown than merely due to oppressive regieme`s in other countries.

I can see this thread developing into a broader discussion,especially in the context of expensive programmes such as the Spanish assistance package for female Roma.

Even more noteworthy perhaps is the reality of another financially unstable EU country spending large (Borrowed) sums on such activites whilst the more "financially prudent" ones such as France and Germany seek to cut their spending ?

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting commentary this ,as the reality dawns that it`s not simply a question of the Nasty Old French being blind to the benefits of Gypsy culture.

What are the benefits of Gypsy culture? I sat back for a few minutes and I couldn't think of one in these modern times.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting commentary this ,as the reality dawns that it`s not simply a question of the Nasty Old French being blind to the benefits of Gypsy culture.

Not for the first time do we see evidence of the "Problems" being somewhat more home-grown than merely due to oppressive regieme`s in other countries.

I wasn't aware that the size of an area where a type of bigotry was common was some indication of veracity.

AlekSmart

Nodin posted :-

I wasn't aware that the size of an area where a type of bigotry was common was some indication of veracity.

Size is`nt everything as they say....

However it`s not so much the size issue as the reality that interaction with Roma or indeed any other itinerant grouping tends to be problematic for settled folks,be they Irish,Bulgarian or Romanian.

So are we to now accept that non-Roma Romanians are all bigots because they have difficulties with embracing their Gypsy country folk ?

This reluctance to embrace other cultures is not all one-way traffic either as some settled folk have discovered when life`s highway took them into Traveller culture.

Lump it all under a catch-all title such as "bigotry" if you will but the reality remains that whatever integration is required tends to be in one direction only,with few enough settled folks opting to stuff the fixed-abode lark and go a wandering through the EU.

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

For the same reasons I know many Nigerians, Chinese, Polish etc are in emplyment. Ethnic features and accents.

Ignoring for a moment that Roma tend to originate from a pretty broad geographical area, you’re telling me that you can identify someone, without any trouble at all, based solely on their appearance and their accent? Because that is grade-A bull****.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

She'd be entitled to jobseekers benefit, which I have said twice I am in favour of.

But I asked you whether or not she should be entitled to jobseekers’ allowance, didn’t I?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They have quite a distinctive look.

Do they indeed. Ok, how’s about you have another look at this news-piece. A factory is referred to therein, where 20% of the workers are non-Roma. Based on the above footage, perhaps you could explain to us how we can differentiate between the Roma and non-Roma workers at said factory, based on their appearance?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They have some similar features that other ethnic groups don't have.

Such as?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If I said you could identify a Dubliner by his accent in Cork you wouldn't claim I said all Dubliners sound the same.

No, perhaps I would not. However, if I presented you with a random selection of Irish people and I asked you to specify the home county of each, how successful to you think you’d be?

AlekSmart

Occassionally a picture can be worth a thousand words,with an interesting little vignette to accompany it......

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=119535

It also seems that the French authorities are quite single-minded in their approach and are prepared to carry through their stated policies,irrespective of what world-opinion (and some Boards.ie members) think !

Almost 8,300 Romanian and Bulgarian nationals have now been expelled from France since the beginning of the year. Close to 10,000 were expelled in 2009.

French officials have said the deportations are part of a broader crackdown on illegal immigration. Additional chartered flights are scheduled for September 14 and 30.

Over the past month, the French government has dismantled 51 Roma camps that it called illegal.

Jeboa Safari

djpbarry wrote: »

No, perhaps I would not. However, if I presented you with a random selection of Irish people and I asked you to specify the home county of each, how successful to you think you’d be?

What a stupid comparison, maybe if everyone was wearing their county colours you'd be closer to a proper comparison

djpbarry

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

What a stupid comparison, maybe if everyone was wearing their county colours you'd be closer to a proper comparison

Oh I see. So every Roma wears an "I'm a Roma" t-shirt, do they?

RandomName2

To all intents and purposes when people talk about the Roma, they are talking about the complete package.

Nobody is terribly interested in the racial characteristics that distinguish the Roma...

And very few are interested in their indigenous culture...

It is the manner in which they are part of a victimised section of society which thus grants them immunity from the same sorts of rules, regulations and manners which the rest of 'us' have to adhere to. That is, if you say that a Roma is more likely to pick-poket you on O'Connell St. than an Irish person you would be very much correct, but also called a racist by those who wish to positively discriminate in favour of the victimised sub-culture.

Oh: but why are the Roma victimised?

Why are they considered undesirables by most Hungarians and Romanians?

For the same reason that Travelers are considered undesirables by most Irish.

When is a Traveler not a Traveler? When he is living in a house and is a tax-paying member of society. Then he's just called Irish.

P. Breathnach

RandomName2 wrote: »

...
When is a Traveler not a Traveler? When he is living in a house and is a tax-paying member of society. Then he's just called Irish.

In my experience, he is more likely to be called a settled traveller. Some people call them worse things than that, even many years after their coming off the road.

And that's indicative of the problem we are wrestling with here: how to deal with a population where many of its members diverge from the social norm.

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh I see. So every Roma wears an "I'm a Roma" t-shirt, do they?

This thread was never about every Roma, some pc brigades came on objecting to the French removing illegal elements from their society and suddenly that meant they were going to chase down every Roma

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

This thread was never about every Roma, .....

For some, it most certainly was.

jugger0

Its good to see a country with balls... (even if it is the french)

Id like to see the british deport all the muslim extremists preaching hate in their own country, why the hell do they allow them to stay ill never know...

As well this country needs to get rid of all these foreign criminals, if you commit a crime here you should be deported immediatly (we have enough of our own) And people with criminal records shouldnt be aloud leave their own country in the first place. Immigration is a joke! look at britain and its problems! France is first in what will hopefully be many countries who deceide to put their own people first.

donkey balls

jugger0 wrote: »

Its good to see a country with balls... (even if it is the french)

Id like to see the british deport all the muslim extremists preaching hate in their own country, why the hell do they allow them to stay ill never know...

As well this country needs to get rid of all these foreign criminals, if you commit a crime here you should be deported immediatly (we have enough of our own) And people with criminal records shouldnt be aloud leave their own country in the first place. Immigration is a joke! look at britain and its problems! France is first in what will hopefully be many countries who deceide to put their own people first.

the uk home office tried to deport some of these muslim extremists but got their decision over turned by the european court of human rights.

Corsendonk

Deleted User wrote: »

What are the benefits of Gypsy culture? I sat back for a few minutes and I couldn't think of one in these modern times.

Django Reinhardt, french are happy to claim him as one of there own.

jugger0

donkey balls wrote: »

the uk home office tried to deport some of these muslim extremists but got their decision over turned by the european court of human rights.

What a load of bull, The uk should have the right to deport whoever they want, how would it be affecting their rights to send them back to their homeland? all they do is preach hate about the western world yet they want to live here... The european union is destroying its self.