Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

Ignoring for a moment that Roma tend to originate from a pretty broad geographical area, you’re telling me that you can identify someone, without any trouble at all, based solely on their appearance and their accent? Because that is grade-A bull****.

Yes you can. You won't be right 100% but Romas are ethnically different enough to tell most of the time.

For the sake of your insistence I can't tell though....

I've worked in jobs ranging from cafes and takeaways to call centres and banking offices over the last7 years with people from all over the world. Never once worked with a Roma. Nor has anyone I know. For me that's a pretty good suggestion very few of them here are in employment

But I asked you whether or not she should be entitled to jobseekers’ allowance, didn’t I?

I don't see why she'd need it when she's entitled to jobseeker's benefit. As I said I think an exception could me made for third level students if she wanted to go to college or something.

Do they indeed. Ok, how’s about you have another look at this news-piece. A factory is referred to therein, where 20% of the workers are non-Roma. Based on the above footage, perhaps you could explain to us how we can differentiate between the Roma and non-Roma workers at said factory, based on their appearance?

Such as?

Different facial features to most other Europeans. Their genetic make up and language suggests they originated in India and as they tend to only marry with other Roma people so distinctive features will be preserved in their ancestors.

This factory thing that keeps getting harped on about - I do not think Romas are racially inferior or evil or anything. My point is that no one can present evidence the Romas in Ireland are doing anything other than begging here. I'm sure there are Romas in other countries leading functional lives.

No, perhaps I would not. However, if I presented you with a random selection of Irish people and I asked you to specify the home county of each, how successful to you think you’d be?

Are you for real? Romas are far more genetically different to any other ethnicity than Irish people in the different counties of Ireland! Can't believe you made that point.

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In my experience, he is more likely to be called a settled traveller. Some people call them worse things than that, even many years after their coming off the road.

And that's indicative of the problem we are wrestling with here: how to deal with a population where many of its members diverge from the social norm.

Is that a good comparison? Don't settled travellers describe themselves that way to show they're proud of their traveller heritage?

Memnoch

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My point is that no one can present evidence the Romas in Ireland are doing anything other than begging here. I'm sure there are Romas in other countries leading functional lives.

Incorrect. When you GENERALISE an entire ethnicity of people as "beggars," it is you that needs to provide proof to back up this claim, without which it is just racist nonsense.

People are innocent until proven guilty and just because you've seen some "roma," (and you can't even know for certain if that's who they were unless you spoke to them) begging, you cannot tar them all with the same brush.

Generalising peoples on the basis of ethnicity in order to demean and insult them is the essence of racism.

opo

Memnoch wrote: »

Generalising peoples on the basis of ethnicity in order to demean and insult them is the essence of racism.

Does anything beat the thrill of reading the lecturing posts, of yet another mystical diviner of that beautiful obsession - RACISM:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:?

Tell us more o wise one........

It's so much more interesting than the topic as always......

Corsendonk

jugger0 wrote: »

What a load of bull, The uk should have the right to deport whoever they want, how would it be affecting their rights to send them back to their homeland? all they do is preach hate about the western world yet they want to live here... The european union is destroying its self.

Lucky they didnt try to do the same policy during the troubles or we would have been over run with shinners!!!

jugger0

Corsendonk wrote: »

Lucky they didnt try to do the same policy during the troubles or we would have been over run with shinners!!!

yet there would be no troubles if all the british people went and lived in britain...

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Does anything beat the thrill of reading the lecturing posts, of yet another mystical diviner of that beautiful obsession - RACISM:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:?

Tell us more o wise one........

It's so much more interesting than the topic as always......

He's correct. But I suppose thats why you're getting all annoyed.

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Yes you can. You won't be right 100%...

You'd be doing well if you were right even 50% of the time. I genuinely cannot believe you're serious about this.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I've worked in jobs ranging from cafes and takeaways to call centres and banking offices over the last7 years with people from all over the world. Never once worked with a Roma. Nor has anyone I know. For me that's a pretty good suggestion very few of them here are in employment

I've worked with a Roma guy from Moldova. Anecdotes are fun.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't see why she'd need it when she's entitled to jobseeker's benefit.

Let's try a third time: why shouldn't she be entitled to jobseekers' allowance?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

...Romas are ethnically different enough to tell most of the time.
...
Different facial features to most other Europeans. Their genetic make up and language suggests they originated in India...

So you could pick out the Roma among a line-up of South Asians?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My point is that no one can present evidence the Romas in Ireland are doing anything other than begging here.

My point is that no one can present evidence the Roma in Ireland are doing nothing other than begging.

AlekSmart

djpbarry posted:-

My point is that no one can present evidence the Roma in Ireland are doing nothing other than begging.

Perhaps not,but some evidence can be produced that some members of this "community" were indeed engaged in pastimes "other than begging" in 2007.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/23/ireland

Of course in the interim we may well have successfully convinced these folk that their "Traditions" are not actually encouraged within settled Irish society in which case we can all be proud of our abilities to encourage integration,however I too await evidence of this.

P. Breathnach

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps not,but some evidence can be produced that some members of this "community" were indeed engaged in pastimes "other than begging" in 2007....

The fact that some members of a group (even if it is many or most of them) behave in a way that we consider wrong does not justify condemning all members of that group.

There is plenty of evidence out there that some Irish people commit murder, conduct armed robbery, rape women or men, sell drugs, etc. That proves nothing, good or bad, about me.

In the matter of personal rights, people are entitled to be considered as individuals.

TechnoPool

same we dont do the same here, were too soft

Jeboa Safari

France is deporting Roma people that are illegally there, so these shouts of racism are a load of nonsense.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

He's correct. But I suppose thats why you're getting all annoyed.

LOL

Why on earth would I be annoyed?

This is simply another mind numbing conversation amongst the self annointed high priests of anti-racism like yourself. :eek:

It's no more or less than the usual self preening, sanctimonious drivel and I quite enjoy pointing it out

AlekSmart

P Breathnach posted :-

The fact that some members of a group (even if it is many or most of them) behave in a way that we consider wrong does not justify condemning all members of that group.

Quite,however can any grouping (Irish included) which regularly and historically provides a safe-haven for such "considered" wrong doing be too surprised when the "rest" of organized society reacts in an attempt to maintain or protect it`s own mores ?

I have no doubt there were some lovely B Specials,as well as some cultured and refined members of the Auxilliaries whom you could invite to a musical evening.

Several members of the Shah of Iran`s, Savak, were oft to be found enjoying Operatic evenings as indeed,in their own era, were a great many senior members of the German National Socialist Party and I`m confident that members of the Khmer Rouge were excellent neighbours when at home,however that has`nt prevented their collective being regarded (correctly I hope) in a generally negative light


There are,of course opposing viewpoints and here`s a link to a more supportive viewpoint of such Roma cultural traditions as female child-brides and the resultant need to procure them by force or deception.

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2295

Most people are generally quite laid back about these things,especially when it is at arms-length from their own daily enjoyment of life.

The original topic referred to France`s decision to expel persons who had failed to meet their criteria for legal status in that country.

The fact that the majority,in this instance,were of Roma background appeared to grate with many folks,and that`s the way it`ll have to stay.

At the end of the day this thread is about it`s members diverse views and long may that continue.

I`m a supporter of the French stance,but I`ve no desire to convert you or anybody else who is`nt...vive le differénce as they might say.

In the matter of personal rights, people are entitled to be considered as individuals.

In reality the above P Breathnach quote is probably akin to asking "What is the meaning of life" ? as it opens up all manner of deep and involved ethical issues which transcend mere ethnicity ?

P. Breathnach

AlekSmart wrote: »

... In reality the above P Breathnach quote is probably akin to asking "What is the meaning of life" ? as it opens up all manner of deep and involved ethical issues which transcend mere ethnicity ?

I think you got it in a nutshell: for me, ethics matters more than ethnics; you seem to favour a contrary view.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

In reality the above P Breathnach quote is probably akin to asking "What is the meaning of life" ? as it opens up all manner of deep and involved ethical issues which transcend mere ethnicity ?

You'll find thats the kind of thing thats supposed to distinguish us from the rest of the animal world.

Corsendonk

Corsendonk wrote: »

Django Reinhardt, french are happy to claim him as one of there own.

That's all you could come up with?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In my experience, he is more likely to be called a settled traveller. Some people call them worse things than that, even many years after their coming off the road.

True enough, but there are still some rather large differences between what he suggested and a settled traveler family that's continuing the tradition of unemployment and such.

And that's indicative of the problem we are wrestling with here: how to deal with a population where many of its members diverge from the social norm.

Not really. I don't see the other "groupings" of people in Ireland seeking a different special status, recognition of a special language, and better yet, support from the state for being different from the rest of us. Should we be giving "Goth's", "Hippies", etc special rights simply because they choose to be different?

Corsendonk

Maurice Micklewhite is from a gypsy family too

so... the only apparent benefits of a "gypsy" tradition are a couple of individuals? Right.

Corsendonk

Quite a bit of classical music influenced by the Gypsy tradition of music.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

so... the only apparent benefits of a "gypsy" tradition are a couple of individuals?

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I imagine the gypsy dress code has had a significant influence on the wimmens' fashion.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I imagine the gypsy dress code has had a significant influence on the wimmens' fashion.

My point is in relation to this part of the article quoted...

"Interesting commentary this ,as the reality dawns that it`s not simply a question of the Nasty Old French being blind to the benefits of Gypsy culture"

So, we're talking about two individuals, some music, and the significant impact of gypsy clothes on womens' fashion? (Although I'm rather dubious about the fashion element, considering that "fashion" appears in many cultures).

Still, thanks for the suggestions. Gives me some food for thought.

Liam Byrne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what an attitude! would make you sick :mad:

We have plenty of "our own" who have the same attitude.

Memnoch

Deleted User wrote: »

so... the only apparent benefits of a "gypsy" tradition are a couple of individuals? Right.

What's the point of some tribe in the amazon that go around naked all the time. Heck what's the benefit of any culture that isn't like us.

Feck it. Feck individuality and personal choice. Let's all dress up in suits and wear sunglasses in nightclubs and shoot the rest.

I'll get me shotgun, meet you at the spire in 20.

Going to extremes, don't you think?

In the case of France, and the influence that the Roma Gypsies have had on that country... what were the benefits for France in having the Roma Culture?

Corsendonk

Who cares? Its France, you got a holiday home or something there?

AlekSmart

P Breathnach posted:-

I think you got it in a nutshell: for me, ethics matters more than ethnics; you seem to favour a contrary view.

Ok...a trifle oversimplified but I`m cool enough with that,although I would suggest that both those elements are surprisingly closely linked.

Nodin posted :-

You'll find thats the kind of thing thats supposed to distinguish us from the rest of the animal world.

I would heartily agree with that,but I`d also lay heavy emphasis on the supposed when presented with significant evidence that "the power of reason" is not,as we were taught,the sole preserve of the human species..

Corsendonk

Corsendonk wrote: »

Who cares? Its France, you got a holiday home or something there?

I guess you didn't bother to read the title of the thread before posting. :rolleyes:

Corsendonk

jugger0 wrote: »

yet there would be no troubles if all the british people went and lived in britain...

Well with that great logic insight their wouldn't any troubles too if the Irish went to live in Canada

Corsendonk

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really. I don't see the other "groupings" of people in Ireland seeking a different special status, recognition of a special language, and better yet, support from the state for being different from the rest of us. Should we be giving "Goth's", "Hippies", etc special rights simply because they choose to be different?

Ohh I did read the thread thanks all the same and noticed how your trying to link Roma with travellers.

To your quote above the Gaeltacht comes to mind. Dead language supported by the state, subsidised special areas just because they can speak Irish, have the added advantage to apply for state translator jobs, translating government publications and EU publications that no one will ever read. And all paid for by the tax payer. Perhaps we could get rid of them like the Roma too.........