Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

Bottle_of_Smoke

Corsendonk wrote: »

Ohh I did read the thread thanks all the same and noticed how your trying to link Roma with travellers.

To your quote above the Gaeltacht comes to mind. Dead language supported by the state, subsidised special areas just because they can speak Irish, have the added advantage to apply for state translator jobs, translating government publications and EU publications that no one will ever read. And all paid for by the tax payer. Perhaps we could get rid of them like the Roma too.........

That's cool with me

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

So, we're talking about two individuals, some music, and the significant impact of gypsy clothes on womens' fashion?

It’s difficult to be unaware of the influence of gypsy/Roma culture – the entire concept of ‘Bohemianism’ was originally based on the lifestyle of Roma gypsies in France (ironically enough) in the 19th century. For better or worse, Bohemianism has been a major cultural influence in Europe (and, by extension, the rest of the world) over the last two centuries.

Jeboa Safari

Corsendonk wrote: »

Ohh I did read the thread thanks all the same and noticed how your trying to link Roma with travellers.

To your quote above the Gaeltacht comes to mind. Dead language supported by the state, subsidised special areas just because they can speak Irish, have the added advantage to apply for state translator jobs, translating government publications and EU publications that no one will ever read. And all paid for by the tax payer. Perhaps we could get rid of them like the Roma too.........

How is that comparable?

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

You'd be doing well if you were right even 50% of the time. I genuinely cannot believe you're serious about this.

I'm not saying I can tell the exact region someone comes from. Though I could generally tell Chinese from a Malaysian, an Indian from a Pakistani, a Nigerian from an Ethiopian etc.

I've worked with a Roma guy from Moldova. Anecdotes are fun.

Ok fine. Use the exception to ignore the fact that the massive majority of Romas are here to do nothing other than have the Irish state fund their existance.

Let's try a third time: why shouldn't she be entitled to jobseekers' allowance?

She's not Irish. By offering jobseekers allowance to foreigners we're inviting the wrong kind of foreigner. The jobseeker's benefit is there for foreigners who come here to work and find themselves on hard times. What's the issue?

So you could pick out the Roma among a line-up of South Asians?

I'd say so yes. I'd be 90% sure if I heard their accents.

My point is that no one can present evidence the Roma in Ireland are doing nothing other than begging.

Sent an email to romasupport.ie to see. Though seeing as no one I've met has ever worked with a Rom I doubt it is going to be a very significant percentage

AlekSmart

Perhaps our French compatriots were a little premature in their tactics...by the sound of things we`ll soon have an opportunity to poke through the entrails of our Auld enemy,the Brits ......


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100829/tuk-changes-to-rules-on-traveller-sites-6323e80.html

As with most "Officialese",especially initiatives announced in the midst of a Bank Holiday Weekend (UK) the real meat is probably this single sentence.....

He is also looking at ways of increasing local authority powers to tackle unauthorised encampments, which are a source of major community tensions in some areas.

The capacity for a very full thread is staring us in the face now !!!

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm not saying I can tell the exact region someone comes from. Though I could generally tell Chinese from a Malaysian, an Indian from a Pakistani, a Nigerian from an Ethiopian etc.

I’m going to drop this at this stage, but I still don’t believe you. My missus is Pakistani and I’ve spent a good deal of time around Pakistanis over the last number of years. However, I still often have a great deal of difficulty in telling Indians (particularly those from Northern regions such as Rajasthan and the Punjab) from Pakistanis.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Use the exception to ignore the fact that the massive majority of Romas are here to do nothing other than have the Irish state fund their existance.

Or so you assume.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

She's not Irish.

Your opposition to non-Irish people obtaining certain state supports, regardless of their contribution to Ireland, is duly noted.

Jeboa Safari

Heres an old article from the independent, reporting on a study

THE NUMBER of children begging on Irish streets has risen for the first time in more than 10 years.

Despite the numbers falling since 1997, the Irish Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Children (ISPCC) yesterday revealed the recent influx of Romanian gypsy families into Ireland had led to an increase in the number of sightings recorded so far this year.

Mary Nicholson, director of Leanbh, which helps children at risk, said yesterday the rise had been 'dramatic' since Romania joined the EU. "When we started in 1997 there were 3,000 sightings a year, which fell to 756 by 2006," she said yesterday. "It has fallen year-on-year, but the numbers are increasing and this year we have seen a noticeable increase.

"This increase is certainly visible. We attribute it to the fact that begging is no longer illegal after a High Court challenge, although begging with a child is, and because there seems to be an increase in the number of Roma families begging on the streets.

"The biggest representation is among Travellers and Romas. There is an amount of people who give kids and their mothers money and we say you shouldn't do that, it just encourages people to come back on the streets."

Last March the High Court struck down a section of the Vagrancy Act which had criminalised begging by adults. Ms Nicholson said this had also led to the increase.

Children as young as eight had presented themselves to ISPCC workers after being left to beg on the streets in bad weather.

A childcare specialist has been appointed to deal with them, and Ms Nicholson urged people not to give to beggars.

Education and access to services was needed to reduce the numbers of at-risk children, she added.

So theres a correlation between increased begging, and increased number of Roma

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

Your opposition to non-Irish people obtaining certain state supports, regardless of their contribution to Ireland, is duly noted.

You just had to cut out the qualifying statement didn't you. Pathetic.

johnnyskeleton

Nijmegen wrote: »

An EU national in the country who commits a crime can be deported as a part of their sentence.

In France?

Are they not covered by the same EU directive as Ireland?

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You just had to cut out the qualifying statement didn't you.

Yes I did. Because it's nonsense.

The obvious approach to reducing the abuse of the Irish social welfare system is to reform the system. Cutting off access (to certain benefits) for a whole bunch of people based on their country of birth is a daft, knee-jerk reaction that does nothing to address the underlying problems and, ignoring the fact that it would also be in contravention of EU law, still leaves us with any Irish people who are claiming payments to which they are not entitled.

Corsendonk

Corsendonk wrote: »

Ohh I did read the thread thanks all the same and noticed how your trying to link Roma with travellers.

Actually, its you that's seeking such a link. I haven't spoken about the travellers so far in this thread except to respond to other peoples points to me. Just as I am with you.

I have a feeling that you're seeking to make such a connection because you can drive this thread into the usual arguments of the travellers in Ireland.

Now, can you restrain yourself to talking about the Roma Gypsies & France?

To your quote above the Gaeltacht comes to mind. Dead language supported by the state, subsidised special areas just because they can speak Irish, have the added advantage to apply for state translator jobs, translating government publications and EU publications that no one will ever read. And all paid for by the tax payer. Perhaps we could get rid of them like the Roma too.........

Your example is meaningless because Irish is native to Ireland, whereas the Roma Gypsies are not native to France. Secondly, the people currently subsidized for speaking Irish do not have a reputation for criminal activities. etc.

Do you have another comparison that is actually relevant?

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s difficult to be unaware of the influence of gypsy/Roma culture – the entire concept of ‘Bohemianism’ was originally based on the lifestyle of Roma gypsies in France (ironically enough) in the 19th century. For better or worse, Bohemianism has been a major cultural influence in Europe (and, by extension, the rest of the world) over the last two centuries.

Which is a rather generic example which can be attributed to any of the gypsy traditions, and affected Europe centuries ago. What are the current day benefits of the Roma Gypsy culture & presence in France?

I can see the contribution that the gypsy culture gave to the world in the past in tales, music, fashion, food, etc. However, this is about the modern day.. and the contributions that they provide to a country to offset the rather heavy liabilities which have been promoted by a large proportion of their population.

jugger0

Corsendonk wrote: »

Well with that great logic insight their wouldn't any troubles too if the Irish went to live in Canada

Why would we go there? Ireland is our country.

Corsendonk

Nah just as flawed as your statements about having no troubles if the Brits went back to Britain. Why would the Scots-Irish go to Britain?

Bottle_of_Smoke

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes I did. Because it's nonsense.

Don't make me laugh if you thought it was nonsense you definitely would have quoted me on it. You took it out to make it look like I believed foreigners shouldn't ever get benefits even if they have worked. Which is clearly bollocks because I support the likes of your other half being entitled to jobseekers benefit should she come upon hard times.

The obvious approach to reducing the abuse of the Irish social welfare system is to reform the system. Cutting off access (to certain benefits) for a whole bunch of people based on their country of birth is a daft, knee-jerk reaction that does nothing to address the underlying problems and, ignoring the fact that it would also be in contravention of EU law, still leaves us with any Irish people who are claiming payments to which they are not entitled.

I don't see that type of benefit being removed for foreigners as a knee jerk reaction because it is daft to be giving it to foreigners in the first place.

I did not mention it in relation to abuse of Irish social welfare. I specified I mentioned it because it attracts the wrong kind of immigrant.

As you said it contravenes EU law so it isn't going to change. But it won't stop me from complaining about it

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You took it out to make it look like I believed foreigners shouldn't ever get benefits even if they have worked. Which is clearly bollocks because I support the likes of your other half being entitled to jobseekers benefit should she come upon hard times.

But should she fall on even harder times and require jobseekers allowance, you would oppose such a claim, no matter how many years she has lived and worked in Ireland?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't see that type of benefit being removed for foreigners as a knee jerk reaction because it is daft to be giving it to foreigners in the first place.

Why? It’s daft to provide jobseekers allowance to a foreigner who may have worked in Ireland for, say, 20 years, but it’s perfectly ok to provide it to a kid fresh out of school who hasn’t worked a day in their life? How does that make sense?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I did not mention it in relation to abuse of Irish social welfare. I specified I mentioned it because it attracts the wrong kind of immigrant.

How many immigrants come to Ireland with the sole intention of claiming jobseekers allowance? More importantly, how many are successful?

AlekSmart

A somewhat lower turnout than many in Ireland would have expected

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11186592

France along with Spain are the countries which write the book on Mass Public Protest.

With the largest French Trades Union (CGT) backing this protest it is noteworthy that even the organizers estimate for the Paris march (50,000) are far short of the 200,000 plus which French Labour Groups can quite regularly muster.

M.Sarkozy is,I fear,a wee bit more in tune with the French electorate`s views than many of his critics,something the BBC`s Christian Fraser grudgingly admits in his addendum...

But the protesters are also a minority. President Nicolas Sarkozy says his government's actions fully comply with EU law on migration and human rights, even though there has been a concerted effort to link illegal Roma camps with rising crime.

opo

AlekSmart wrote: »

A somewhat lower turnout than many in Ireland would have expected

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11186592
...

From your link:

Trade unionists, students, anarchists, illegal immigrants and others turned out in Paris to the sound of whistles and drums.

Quelle surprise.........

caseyann

I am on the fence about this one.
Are they working in the country?
Do they have high crime rates because of roma?

The question is should people (if they have no intention of working be allowed to stay in a country just because they land there?)

The only roma gypsies i know dont work and beg always on streets.

Or as humans allowed to stay?
How do they make money to live etc... if they cant claim welfare and dont work?

Does anyone know Roma gypsies who work here.I am sure must be some who work.
When is it time to say no.
I am not familiar with the stats for roma crime in France.But if people are just protesting because they are people and they dont contribute to the country and cause high crime.I dont know why people are protesting.

_Nuno_

caseyann wrote: »

Does anyone know Roma gypsies who work here.I am sure must be some who work.

In Portugal not long ago there was this gypsy kid, about 22 year old that made the evening news. You know what was the big deal about him? He had a job. About 10 minutes of the evening news where devoted to this "amazing" and very rare event.

Although I have known two gypsies that broke free from their beg, steal and cheat way of life, it's unfortunately very rare. We have tens of thousand of them in Portugal and their most "honest" occupation is selling counterfeit clothing, but usually it's more things like theft, "professional begging" (including renting kids from other families so they can use them to beg), kidnapping and using the natives of the country as slaves, human trafficking, forced prostitution, selling drugs and weapons and living of welfare, which they actually call their salary.

There's this huge trial going on now where 10 "clans" (or families) are charged with kidnapping people for more than 8 years and using them as slaves in Spain. Women forced to prostitute themselves and men to work in farms. And this is all OK in their culture unfortunately, but not working for a non gypsy.

worded

Gypsies - Its the 99% that give the 1% a bad name.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

I am on the fence about this one.
Are they working in the country?
Do they have high crime rates because of roma?

The question is should people (if they have no intention of working be allowed to stay in a country just because they land there?)

The only roma gypsies i know dont work and beg always on streets.

Or as humans allowed to stay?
How do they make money to live etc... if they cant claim welfare and dont work?

Does anyone know Roma gypsies who work here.I am sure must be some who work.
When is it time to say no.
I am not familiar with the stats for roma crime in France.But if people are just protesting because they are people and they dont contribute to the country and cause high crime.I dont know why people are protesting.

Because the French have decided that ALL Roma have to go, rather than arrest, try and deport individual criminals.

Its the tarring of an entire ethnic group with one brush and then following it up with collective action that's the problem.

Europe should be far beyond this sort of attitude

OhNoYouDidn't

worded wrote: »

Gypsies - Its the 99% that give the 1% a bad name.

And its that 1% that are blatantly having their human rights abused by being treated like the other 99% for no reason thats the issue.

AlekSmart

OH No You Did`nt posted.....

Because the French have decided that ALL Roma have to go

Have they ??

From the coverage lately it`s obvious that the Roma make up the majority of those deported,but thats not the same as saying the French are deporting only Roma....I`d reckon that anybody failing to meet the French resedential criteria is fair-game...and that situation did`nt just arise yesterday....

http://www.euractiv.com/en/socialeurope/eu-plans-charter-flights-deport-illegal-immigrants/article-187035

demonspawn

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Europe should be far beyond this sort of attitude

Sure why don't we just throw them all in ghettos and make them wear armbands so we know who to keep an eye on? That seemed to work pretty well last time. If they get uppity we can just load them all onto the cattle cars...

demonspawn

demonspawn wrote: »

Sure why don't we just throw them all in ghettos and make them wear armbands so we know who to keep an eye on? That seemed to work pretty well last time. If they get uppity we can just load them all onto the cattle cars...

They're being sent back to their home country. Stop taking the extremely dramatic stance.

walshb

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And its that 1% that are blatantly having their human rights abused by being treated like the other 99% for no reason thats the issue.

I think the poster may be a little generous with his figure; further divide that 1 percent by ten to get a more accurate figure I wold say.

Anyway, you serioulsy wanna' get out on a lame technicality like this? Oh, can't tar them all? Well, when practically all of them are a waste, then why can't we tar them?

Why should such a negligible figure like 1 percent, or in my view, less, be in the driving seat?

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

Why should such a negligible figure like 1 percent, or in my view, less, be in the driving seat?

Suppose you're at a party with 99 other people, all of whom are in possession of <insert illegal drug of choice here>. The Gardaí raid the place and it is decided that all 100 of you will be charged with possession, even though you are innocent - I doubt you would regard this as a fair outcome.

The hypothetical fact that 99% of Roma are criminals (I doubt the figure is anywhere near that high, by the way) does not justify discrimination against the other 1% no matter what way you want to spin it, particularly when we consider that 1% could represent a substantial number of people.

Laminations

The French are not turfing people out because they are Roma, they are turfing people out because they are illegal and/or involved in criminal activity, it just so happens that a lot of said people happen to be Roma. Its a basic logical fallacy assessed on any IQ test. People failing to see this logical fallacy are showing their low IQ

If all zogs are narbs and all narbs are mooms, then are all mooms zogs?

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose you're at a party with 99 other people, all of whom are in possession of <insert illegal drug of choice here>. The Gardaí raid the place and it is decided that all 100 of you will be charged with possession, even though you are innocent - I doubt you would regard this as a fair outcome.

The hypothetical fact that 99% of Roma are criminals (I doubt the figure is anywhere near that high, by the way) does not justify discrimination against the other 1% no matter what way you want to spin it, particularly when we consider that 1% could represent a substantial number of people.

Are you arguing that someone will be deported simply for being Roma in France? Even if they have a job and are paying tax? How would the French authorities going into his place of work recognise him as Roma so as to deport him?

djpbarry wrote: »

So you’re telling me that if I present you with a line-up of Spar employees (for example), you’ll be able to pick out any Roma?

Or is it more likely that they are targeting criminals and illegals, the majority of whom happen to be Roma. And it is just as illogical to assume all Roma are criminals from any such stats, I agree with you on that

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

Are you arguing that someone will be deported simply for being Roma in France?

No, I'm just responding to a quote from walshb.