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Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

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    #182
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    _Nuno_ wrote: »
    In Portugal not long ago there was this gypsy kid, about 22 year old that made the evening news. You know what was the big deal about him? He had a job. About 10 minutes of the evening news where devoted to this "amazing" and very rare event.

    Although I have known two gypsies that broke free from their beg, steal and cheat way of life, it's unfortunately very rare. We have tens of thousand of them in Portugal and their most "honest" occupation is selling counterfeit clothing, but usually it's more things like theft, "professional begging" (including renting kids from other families so they can use them to beg), kidnapping and using the natives of the country as slaves, human trafficking, forced prostitution, selling drugs and weapons and living of welfare, which they actually call their salary.

    There's this huge trial going on now where 10 "clans" (or families) are charged with kidnapping people for more than 8 years and using them as slaves in Spain. Women forced to prostitute themselves and men to work in farms. And this is all OK in their culture unfortunately, but not working for a non gypsy.

    I am not to familar with the schooling of roma children.Are they schooled?
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Because the French have decided that ALL Roma have to go, rather than arrest, try and deport individual criminals.

    Its the tarring of an entire ethnic group with one brush and then following it up with collective action that's the problem.

    Europe should be far beyond this sort of attitude

    So its basically going back to before.But should they have a right to stay in a country if not contributing at all? Unless found to be contributing and can prove where their income comes from, and children been schooled there?
    I hardly believe they are deporting a whole load of people because they havent checked them.


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    #183
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I found this rather interesting:

    France's deportation of Roma shown to be illegal in leaked memo, say critics

    So, for those who claimed the Roma weren't being targetted, well you were simply wrong.

    The EU reaction, is also pretty strong as well:

    Roma deportations by France 'a disgrace', says EU

    So now we know that the Roma are being targetted as a group, and those who claimed otherwise were completely wrong.


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    #184
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    I found this rather interesting:

    France's deportation of Roma shown to be illegal in leaked memo, say critics

    So, for those who claimed the Roma weren't being targetted, well you were simply wrong.

    The EU reaction, is also pretty strong as well:

    Roma deportations by France 'a disgrace', says EU

    So now we know that the Roma are being targetted as a group, and those who claimed otherwise were completely wrong.

    They were still residing illegally in France, nothing changes there.


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    #185
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    They were still residing illegally in France, nothing changes there.

    Yes, there is a change actually, in that they were being targetted on a ethnic basis, which was denied by many on here, and the EU seems to think this certainly changes things:
    Roma deportations by France 'a disgrace', says EU

    --SNIP--
    Brussels confronted France today for the first time over President Nicolas Sarkozy's anti-Gypsy campaign, threatening legal action against the French government for its deportations of almost 1,000 Roma in recent weeks.

    In a furious ultimatum to the French after weeks of being accused of pusillanimity, Viviane Reding, the European commissioner for justice and fundamental rights, likened the French deportations of Roma to Vichy France's treatment of Jews, denounced French conduct as "a disgrace", and announced likely "infringement proceedings" which could see France hauled before the European court of justice.

    The showdown represented a policy U-turn only a few days after she declared that Paris was sending "very positive" signals on its Roma policy.

    The volte-face was triggered by the leak of a French government document demonstrating that Gypsies from Romania and Bulgaria were the explicit targets of a Sarkozy policy to shut down 300 immigrant encampments.
    --SNIP--

    The memo resulted in a policy U-turn, so it has most certainly changed things.


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    #186
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    They were still residing illegally in France, nothing changes there.

    I don't think anyone is arguing France's right to manage their own migration policy. But it needs to be done on a case by case basis and not as a collective targetting.

    The issue here is that they have at a political level linked immigraton to crime when the stats don't back it up, scapegoated the Roma and worked towords deporting them en masse.

    Its moody.


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    #187
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    Yes, there is a change actually, in that they were being targetted on a ethnic basis, which was denied by many on here, and the EU seems to think this certainly changes things:

    The memo resulted in a policy U-turn, so it has most certainly changed things.

    We knew along that the great majority in these camps were Roma, no surprise there that the word 'Roma' was mentioned.

    Here is what it allegedly says
    ""Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."

    Viviane Reding is a sensationalist reactionary comparing the slaughter of Jews to illegal immigrants being deported back to their home country.


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    #188
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is arguing France's right to manage their own migration policy. But it needs to be done on a case by case basis and not as a collective targetting.

    The issue here is that they have at a political level linked immigraton to crime when the stats don't back it up, scapegoated the Roma and worked towords deporting them en masse.

    Its moody.

    Its quite clear that the French and the Italians have a problem with Roma and crime with specific attention to those based in illegal camps, not those that have come to work.
    Their avenue to deal with it was to use the EU wide agreed immigration policy(that 3 mth rule) to deport them.


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    #189
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    We knew along that the great majority in these camps were Roma, no surprise there that the word 'Roma' was mentioned.

    Here is what it allegedly says
    ""Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."

    Viviane Reding is a sensationalist reactionary comparing the slaughter of Jews to illegal immigrants being deported back to their home country.

    I'll tyoe this slowly. No-one is complaining if the convicted criminals they deport happen to be Roma.

    The issue is going to where the Roma are suspected to live, rounding them ALL up and deporting them without them seeing a courtroom


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    #190
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gurramok wrote: »
    Its quite clear that the French and the Italians have a problem with Roma and crime with specific attention to those based in illegal camps, not those that have come to work.
    Their avenue to deal with it was to use the EU wide agreed immigration policy(that 3 mth rule) to deport them.

    Yet the EU are threatening to take France to the ECJ over it....

    The issue is the collective rouding up of an entire ethnic group and denying them due process.


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    #191
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I'll tyoe this slowly. No-one is complaining if the convicted criminals they deport happen to be Roma.

    The issue is going to where the Roma are suspected to live, rounding them ALL up and deporting them without them seeing a courtroom
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Yet the EU are threatening to take France to the ECJ over it....

    The issue is the collective rouding up of an entire ethnic group and denying them due process.

    It was agreed at EU level that Romanian and Bulgarian citizens who cannot support themselves after 3 months in another EU country that they host country is entitled to deport them.

    It just so happens that most Roma are Romanian and Bulgarian citizens that most of those who are also residing in illegal camps are indeed Roma. Quite legit to deport them.


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    #192
    LarrytheLantern
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭LarrytheLantern


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    France has gotten very militant against any aspect of non french culture recently and rightly so.

    They are there illegally.
    Statistically it can be proven they contribute signifigantly to crime in whatever locality they are in.


    Its a pity we won't do the same cos of the softly softly attitude here, **** them all out and be done with it. They contribute nothing and just cause hassle


    i agree wholeheartedly, there are whole areas of Dublin (eg Coolock, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Finglas, Ballymun) we could clear out!

    the country/city would be far safer & more attractive as a result.


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    #193
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    Viviane Reding is a sensationalist reactionary comparing the slaughter of Jews to illegal immigrants being deported back to their home country.

    Why were the Roma camps a "priority"? Surely just get rid of the lot who are breaking the law, why single out on ethnic group? The French government have earned the criticism directed at them.


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    #194
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    Why were the Roma camps a "priority"? Surely just get rid of the lot who are breaking the law, why single out on ethnic group? The French government have earned the criticism directed at them.

    Perhaps those in the camps were engaged in illegal activity and the French had enough and decided to use the law to deport the illegals?

    I don't see them deporting Roma who came to work for example. If they did target an ethnic group exclusively, Roma's who were present illegally and legally would of been deported.


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    #195
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    Perhaps those in the camps were engaged in illegal activity and the French had enough and decided to use the law to deport the illegals?

    Well, then I would think that they would have mentioned that, because of there were illegal activity going on in certains camps, then it would make sense to warn the police officers of that.
    gurramok wrote: »
    I don't see them deporting Roma who came to work for example. If they did target an ethnic group exclusively, Roma's who were present illegally and legally would of been deported.

    I never said they were targetting them exclusively.......

    However, are being singled out as per the memo.


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    #196
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    Well, then I would think that they would have mentioned that, because of there were illegal activity going on in certains camps, then it would make sense to warn the police officers of that.

    What we have heard of as from an outsiders view was constant crime and violence coming from said camps according to the French of course.
    wes wrote: »
    I never said they were targetting them exclusively.......

    However, are being singled out as per the memo.

    You said
    "they were being targetted on a ethnic basis".


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    #197
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gurramok wrote: »
    We knew along that the great majority in these camps were Roma, no surprise there that the word 'Roma' was mentioned.

    Here is what it allegedly says
    ""Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."

    .

    It specifies a number of camps to be closed and then directs - twice - that Roma camps be prioritised. Not camps associated with high rates of crime, public nuisance, nor is it based on size or tactical expediency. It quite clearly targets an ethnic minority not on activity but on ethnicity.


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    #198
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gurramok wrote: »


    You said
    "they were being targetted on a ethnic basis".

    And he was/is right. Why mention an ethnicitys camps are to be prioritised when you've given an order to close 300 camps?


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    #199
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    You said
    "they were being targetted on a ethnic basis".

    Yes, I did, and I was talking in the contexts of the Roma being singled out in the case of the illegal camps. I never said anything beyond that.


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    #200
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Nodin wrote: »
    It specifies a number of camps to be closed and then directs - twice - that Roma camps be prioritised. Not camps associated with high rates of crime, public nuisance, nor is it based on size or tactical expediency. It quite clearly targets an ethnic minority not on activity but on ethnicity.
    Nodin wrote: »
    And he was/is right. Why mention an ethnicitys camps are to be prioritised when you've given an order to close 300 camps?
    wes wrote: »
    Yes, I did, and I was talking in the contexts of the Roma being singled out in the case of the illegal camps. I never said anything beyond that.

    Perhaps ye should read what the French think.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11027288
    French President wrote:
    A statement from the president's office said the camps were "sources of illegal trafficking, of profoundly shocking living standards, of exploitation of children for begging, of prostitution and crime".

    Its quite obvious the French have decided that Roma camps are a problem for crime hence they were prioritised over other groups. Cries of discrimination against such illegal camps and its illegal immigrants is just a sidestep.


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    #201
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gurramok wrote: »

    Its quite obvious the French have decided that Roma camps are a problem for crime hence they were prioritised over other groups. Cries of discrimination against such illegal camps and its illegal immigrants is just a sidestep.

    What some of the french think.

    However, if thats whats going on, then why weren't camps with these high rates targeted? High crime or poverty doesn't get a mention - they are - in their own words - targeting by ethnicity.


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    #202
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    gurramok wrote: »
    Cries of discrimination against such illegal camps and its illegal immigrants is just a sidestep.

    Sacha baron Cohen (as Ali G) did a great parody of those liberals who play the race card at any occasion with his line

    'is it cos I is black?'


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    #203
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    Its quite obvious the French have decided that Roma camps are a problem for crime hence they were prioritised over other groups. Cries of discrimination against such illegal camps and its illegal immigrants is just a sidestep.

    Well, then I would expect them to say in there memo's there targetting certain camps due to there high crime rate, and you now not the ethnicty of the people living there, as it would be irrelevant. Its is very odd they didn't mention anything about crime figures in there memo, one would think that kind of information pertinent.....


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    #204
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Nodin wrote: »
    What some of the french think.

    However, if thats whats going on, then why weren't camps with these high rates targeted? High crime or poverty doesn't get a mention - they are - in their own words - targeting by ethnicity.
    wes wrote: »
    Well, then I would expect them to say in there memo's there targetting certain camps due to there high crime rate, and you now not the ethnicty of the people living there, as it would be irrelevant. Its is very odd they didn't mention anything about crime figures in there memo, one would think that kind of information pertinent.....

    They were targeting camps that according to the French authorities are sources of crime. Its just so happens 200 of those 300 camps contain mostly Roma and according to that alleged memo, Roma were a priority. Thats their judgement of the crime situation.


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    #205
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    They were targeting camps that according to the French authorities are sources of crime. Its just so happens 200 of those 300 camps contain mostly Roma and according to that alleged memo, Roma were a priority. Thats their judgement of the crime situation.

    Then why no mention in the memo? Why mention ethnicity then?


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    #206
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    Then why no mention in the memo? Why mention ethnicity then?

    Its allegedly said they were a priority. It wasn't exclusive to them, other camps were targeted too.


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    #207
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    Its allegedly said they were a priority. It wasn't exclusive to them, other camps were targeted too.

    Ok, once again, the Roma were singled out by ethncity, above other camps.


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    #208
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As far as I can figure out this thread has turned into an argument as to if the Roma Gypsies are being discriminated as a ethnic group, rather than whether their expulsion is warranted.

    Even if they are being discriminated as an ethnic group (which I wouldn't be suprised since most French & Germans I have met have mentioned at some stage a variety of nasty stereotypes to me about Gypsies), it doesn't change the fact that the French are entitled to expel those in Illegal camps or those in the country illegally. IF the Roma Gypsies or any other ethnic group are in the country legally then they're not going to be touched.

    Therefore the suggestion of discrimination starts and ends when it involves those that have no legal right to be in the country, in the first place, and therefore their ethnic background or nationality is irrelevant. The French are entitled to deport them.

    Just as they would be entitled to deport Americans living illegally in the country. Would saying in a report that expelling the American illegals be a priority, make it a form of discrimination? Probably, but it doesn't change the reasons of the case.


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    #209
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    Ok, once again, the Roma were singled out by ethncity, above other camps.

    I had asked earlier, what were the ethnicity of the other camps?


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    #210
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    gurramok wrote: »
    I had asked earlier, what were the ethnicity of the other camps?

    No clue, as they only mentioned the Roma.


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    #211
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    wes wrote: »
    No clue, as they only mentioned the Roma.

    Maybe it was perhaps because there was no other?

    So no other deportations then based on 'ethnicity' or other words illegal immigrants.


This discussion has been closed.
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