Expulsion of Roma Gypsies From France

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Maybe it was perhaps because there was no other?

So no other deportations then based on 'ethnicity' or other words illegal immigrants

There are other ethnicities in the camps actually. I don't know what they are, and I don't really care, and consider it irrelevant.

However, read the article I linked and the memo from the French government make it clear that not all the camps are occupied by Roma, and that they are targetting the Roma above others:

France's deportation of Roma shown to be illegal in leaked memo, say critics

--SNIP--
However, a leaked memo, dated 5 August 2010 and signed by the chief of staff for interior minister Brice Hortefeux, reminds French officials of a "specific objective" set out by Sarkozy.

"Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."
--SNIP--

gurramok

wes wrote: »

There are other ethnicities in the camps actually. I don't know what they are, and I don't really care, and consider it irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant?

There were either Roma & French or Roma & an anonymous ethnic group.

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Why is it irrelevant?

As there race doesn't matter.

gurramok wrote: »

There were either Roma & French or Roma & an anonymous ethnic group.

I have no idea, but as per the memo, the Roma are being singled out.

wes

wes wrote: »

There are other ethnicities in the camps actually. I don't know what they are, and I don't really care, and consider it irrelevant.

I don't quite get that.

So its only because the report stated that the Roma were a priority that you have an issue?

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't quite get that.

So its only because the report stated that the Roma were a priority that you have an issue?

There clearly being singled out for there ethnicity, and I am not the only one either. The memo is causing quite a bit of trouble at EU level:

**EDIT**

Roma deportations by France a disgrace, says EU

--SNIP--
"I can only express my deepest regrets that the political assurances given by two French ministers officially mandated to discuss this matter with the European commission are now openly contradicted by an administrative circular issued by the same government," Reding said.

"This is not a minor offence. This is a disgrace … my patience is wearing thin. Enough is enough."

The commission is charged with upholding European law as laid down by EU treaties. Until today, Reding had refused to say whether France was breaking a 2004 law enshrining freedom of movement across the EU, including Romania and Bulgaria. The Gypsies deported from France are EU citizens.

The EU's charter of fundamental rights also outlaws discrimination on ethnic grounds. The leaked French policy paper revealed that the Roma were being targeted collectively.
--SNIP--

What the French are doing very much appears to break the law, so I think that is reason enough to have an issue with it.
**END EDIT**

wes

wes wrote: »

There clearly being singled out for there ethnicity, and I am not the only one either.

And yet, you have stated that the other ethnicities in the camp are irrelevant... so why should the ethnicity of the Roma be of any concern?

The first thought I had when I read your post was that you were discriminating against the other people in the camp, since their expulsion was of no concern to you (simply because they were not Roma gypsies).

The memo is causing quite a bit of trouble at EU level.

Maybe so, and yet, I doubt the EU will prevent the expulsions from occurring since the people involved are still in France illegally. Some wrists may be slapped for the poor wording of the reports, but the reality of the situation hasn't changed. It'll be some form of posturing game instead until the people involved are forgotten and removed.

gurramok

wes wrote: »

As there race doesn't matter.

I have no idea, but as per the memo, the Roma are being singled out.

I spell it out for you. The other nationality was French yes?

They cannot deport the French. They can deport the Roma and that would partake a bigger operation for the authorities to remove hence they can mention Roma as a priority in logistics terms.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet, you have stated that the other ethnicities in the camp are irrelevant... so why should the ethnicity of the Roma be of any concern?

Its a concern as they are being singled out on a ethnic basis. I would think that much would be pretty clear.

Deleted User wrote: »

The first thought I had when I read your post was that you were discriminating against the other people in the camp, since their expulsion was of no concern to you (simply because they were not Roma gypsies).

Coming from someone who has no issues with people being targetted due to there ethnicity that is pretty damn funny. Personally, I see the ethnicity to be irrelevant, but sadly the French government, and they have decided to single out one group due to ethnicty, which is what I have a problem with.

The other people are being targetted soley due to there actions, there race is rightly ignored, but with the Roma there being targetted due to there race, hence the concern.

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe so, and yet, I doubt the EU will prevent the expulsions from occurring since the people involved are still in France illegally. Some wrists may be slapped for the poor wording of the reports, but the reality of the situation hasn't changed.

The fact that France may face legal action does show that it has changed.

wes

gurramok wrote: »

I spell it out for you. The other nationality was French yes?
They cannot deport the French. They can deport the Roma and that would partake a bigger operation for the authorities to remove hence they can mention Roma as a priority in logistics terms.

No, you would be wrong, as there are other illegal camps that are not occupied by the Roma. Now, if you actually read the memo they do mention the other illegal camps, and they want to single out the Roma:

France's deportation of Roma shown to be illegal in leaked memo, say critics

--SNIP--
However, a leaked memo, dated 5 August 2010 and signed by the chief of staff for interior minister Brice Hortefeux, reminds French officials of a "specific objective" set out by Sarkozy.

"Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."
--SNIP--

They are removing other camps as well, and there prioritizing the Roma ones.

So basically, you are once again wrong, and seem intent on ignoring previous established facts, and are making claims that have no basis.

gurramok

wes wrote: »

No, you would be wrong, as there are other illegal camps that are not occupied by the Roma. Now, if you actually read the memo they do mention the other illegal camps, and they want to single out the Roma:

They are removing other camps as well, and there prioritizing the Roma ones.

So basically, you are once again wrong, and seem intent on ignoring previous established facts, and are making claims that have no basis.

Where does it say the other groups were non-French?

Deporting a sizeable illegal immigrant group like the Roma would be a fairly big operation hence I can see why their name might have been mentioned as a priority over others.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'll tyoe this slowly. No-one is complaining if the convicted criminals they deport happen to be Roma.

The issue is going to where the Roma are suspected to live, rounding them ALL up and deporting them without them seeing a courtroom

One doesnt necassairly need to "see a courtroom" to ensure justice is done in a refugee situation. A tribunal/Minister/Ministerial body may be more then enough. Within such, if it can be established that an individual or body of individuals have no citzenship, or adequate immigration papers, then they should be allowed send people back to their homeland, as they have no entitlement to be in the new place at all.

Laminations

Gurramok has a point. It's a logical argument.

If the majority of Roma are illegal criminals, it is still completely unjustified to single out Roma as a defining factor and generalise that all Roma are criminals. But if, as in this case, the majority of illegal criminals in these camps are Roma then targeting the Roma within these camps is simply targeting the bulk first. It's not discrimination based on ethnicity as the parent group (the population where the sample is taken) is not Rona, but criminals and the criteria for selection is not ethnicity but participation in crime

Nodin

gurramok wrote: »

Its allegedly said they were a priority. It wasn't exclusive to them, other camps were targeted too.

No, thats not what it says at all. It states to clear 300 camps (with no distinction made) and of those 300 to make Roma camps a priority.

Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."
--SNIP--

gurramok wrote: »

I had asked earlier, what were the ethnicity of the other camps?

It doesn't specify, but its clear from the extract that - as Roma are to be prioritised - others are therefore present.

gurramok

Nodin wrote: »

No, thats not what it says at all. It states to clear 300 camps (with no distinction made) and of those 300 to make Roma camps a priority.

It doesn't specify, but its clear from the extract that - as Roma are to be prioritised - others are therefore present.

It looks to me the others were French nationals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10892669

bbc wrote:

However, a poll out this week suggests that the majority of the population approves of the government's toughening line on law and order, our correspondent adds.

The government has said it cannot "tolerate" the camps, describing them as "sources of illegal trafficking, of profoundly shocking living standards, of exploitation of children for begging, of prostitution and crime".

There are hundreds of thousands of Roma or travelling people living in France who are part of long-established communities.

The other main Roma population is made up of recent immigrants, mainly from Romania and Bulgaria. They have the right to enter France without a visa but must have work or residency permits to settle over the long-term.

Easier to deal with French nationals setting up illegal settlements than dealing with a much larger number of Roma for deportation hence the prioritising.

wes

wes wrote:

Coming from someone who has no issues with people being targetted due to there ethnicity that is pretty damn funny.

Actually... Its quite obvious from my posts that I have no problem with people being targeted due to their legal status. Hence all the underlining of Legal and Illegal in a previous post. I have only responded to other peoples references to ethnicity.

wes wrote: »

Its a concern as they are being singled out on a ethnic basis. I would think that much would be pretty clear.

wes wrote:

Personally, I see the ethnicity to be irrelevant, but sadly the French government, and they have decided to single out one group due to ethnicty, which is what I have a problem with.

This is what I don't get. You keep saying about ethnicity being irrelevant, but its all you're talking about, and its only about the ethnicity that is the Roma Gypsies.

The other people are being targetted soley due to there actions, there race is rightly ignored, but with the Roma there being targetted due to there race, hence the concern.

Really? Somehow I find that to be just playing with words. At the end of the day, its about people being deported. IF it was only the Roma Gypsies that were being deported, then it would be a case of ethnic discrimination. BUT its not.

The fact that France may face legal action does show that it has changed.

I'll wait until it successfully happens before I'll believe that to be the case.

AlekSmart

France's deportation of Roma shown to be illegal in leaked memo, say critics

--SNIP--
However, a leaked memo, dated 5 August 2010 and signed by the chief of staff for interior minister Brice Hortefeux, reminds French officials of a "specific objective" set out by Sarkozy.

"Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority," the memo reads. "It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma."
--SNIP--

Whilst the EU`s many and varied departments may well be turning their noses up at M.Sarkozy`s action,the fact remains that the "deportations" have gone ahead,although the French authorities will point to the "voluntary" nature of most of these.

It`s also worth noting that the mass demonstrations to protest against the policy,whilst large in our terms,were most certainly not any big deal in the context of French public displays.

The protests related to the raising of the retirement age dwarfed the Roma deportation issue giving a very clear indication as to the issues which the French themselves find important.

M. Sarkozy`s critics,may well take this memorandum as their torch,but it remains to be seen just how many of the citizenry will fall in behind their banners.

Nodin

gurramok wrote: »

It looks to me the others were French nationals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10892669
.

Then why say Roma, as Roma can be french nationals....?

gurramok

Nodin wrote: »

Then why say Roma, as Roma can be french nationals....?

Travellers?

Jeboa Safari

wes wrote: »

Its a concern as they are being singled out on a ethnic basis. I would think that much would be pretty clear.

Why? They're more likely to be involved in crime and scrounge off society, if your going to close down 300 camps, you want to make sure you get the worst. It's the most efficient way of doing it I imagine.

Nodin

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Why? They're more likely to be involved in crime and scrounge off society, if your going to close down 300 camps, you want to make sure you get the worst. It's the most efficient way of doing it I imagine.

......sad....

Jeboa Safari

Nodin wrote: »

......sad....

How insightful, if only France could have someone like you running it, I'm sure they'd love your one word attempts at a retort when you have explain to them why their country is overun by undesireables and riddled with criminality.

The Aug. 26 exodus brings the number of Roma kicked out of France this year to 8,300 (80% of whom took the 300 euros and left voluntarily). Of course, many of them will probably come right back.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2013917,00.html#ixzz0zXSAYDOV

I found the bit in bold to be hilarious.

I didn't notice the €300 bribe by the French to leave voluntarily anywhere else in the thread, or did I miss it somewhere?

Jeboa Safari

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

How insightful, if only France could have someone like you running it, I'm sure they'd love your one word attempts at a retort when you have explain to them why their country is overun by undesireables and riddled with criminality.

Apart from the stereotypes, are there any statistics to back up such claims of criminality by the Roma?

Oh, don't get me wrong... I agree with the deportations simply because the camps promote the view of not gaining long term employment and thus being not eligible to stay in France. If they find work and can prove it, then there's no reason to deport them.. But I have to wonder at the comments about these people and constant/high crime rates. I've heard plenty of stories over the years about Gypsies when I lived in Germany, and later from immigrants here in Ireland, but I have very little firsthand knowledge of them.

Nodin

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

I'm sure they'd love your one word attempts at a retort when you have explain to them why their country is overun by undesireables and riddled with criminality.

And I'm sure hyperbole and exaggeration will do them a world of good...

Jeboa Safari

Deleted User wrote: »

Apart from the stereotypes, are there any statistics to back up such claims of criminality by the Roma?

Oh, don't get me wrong... I agree with the deportations simply because the camps promote the view of not gaining long term employment and thus being not eligible to stay in France. If they find work and can prove it, then there's no reason to deport them.. But I have to wonder at the comments about these people and constant/high crime rates. I've heard plenty of stories over the years about Gypsies when I lived in Germany, and later from immigrants here in Ireland, but I have very little firsthand knowledge of them.

I don't know to be honest, not sure if you're allowed to collect crime figures by race, but it's fairly obvious that in general they are more likely to involved in crime and begging. There's no smoke without fire.

Nodin wrote: »

And I'm sure hyperbole and exaggeration will do them a world of good...

Great post, says alot about you.

LarrytheLantern

i've lived in both Italy & France.
the Roma are a scourge.
i know what i'm talking about.

the French are spot on.
Shame our inept politicians cant do similar.

Jeboa Safari

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, not sure if you're allowed to collect crime figures by race, but it's fairly obvious that in general they are more likely to involved in crime and begging. There's no smoke without fire.

Nope. Can't agree there. There are plenty of stereotypes against people across the world which may have had some relevance 100-200 years ago, but don't hold up to much inspection. The Jews faced the same stereotypes against them which Nazi Germany used for justification. Normally I dislike references to the Jews in present day situations, but you're falling into that category too well.

There is no justification for the attachment of criminality or such to an ethnic grouping. Unless you are able to find realistic statistics to back up such. Too often its a stereotype continued by hearsay.

opo

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no justification for the attachment of criminality or such to an ethnic grouping. Unless you are able to find realistic statistics to back up such. Too often its a stereotype continued by hearsay.

So, do you believe the compilation of official statistics of criminality by race/ethicity is a good idea?

opo

opo wrote: »

So, do you believe the compilation of official statistics of criminality by race/ethicity is a good idea?

Yup, and I'd include age & sex in that too.

I can't see what the problem is tbh as long as the records are accurate.

opo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup, and I'd include age & sex in that too.

I can't see what the problem is tbh as long as the records are accurate.

If it was found under such statistics that a particular ethnic group was particulary prone to criminality - would you support specific actions to limit their access to a third party country - by that country?